The Smiley Smile Message Board

In the Smile book by Dominic Priore (starting around page 128), claims that when Brian would work with other bands, such as Redwood, the other BBs (especially Mike) would tell him that he can't spend so much time with these other bands. Also that whenever Mike walked into the studio, a black cloud came over Brian.

The thing that I find confusing about this is that Mike later claimed that Brian was a fool to not keep working with Redwood, because they later made millions as TDN! Of course hind sight is 20/20. Also, the fact that Brian had always been working with other groups, including Rachel and the Revolvers, the Honeys, etc. Besides, don't you think that Mike knew that if another band became big on brothers records, it would only help BR and the BBs?

On top of that, I have heard that Brian's relationship with the BBs was good from 67-71 or 72.

Is there some truth to the quotes of Hutton and Negron? What is truth? What is the meaning of life?

These first-hand anecdotes of smugness and controlling behavior by Mike from the members of Redwood are some of the most interesting parts of the book, and have the ring of truth, IMO. They are really disgusting and illustrate the grasping and self-righteous
aspect of his personality very clearly, if accurate. :(

Mike was no more controlling than...Murray, Landy, Melinda, Scott Bennett, that fat guy that sings with him...

Not sure that Scotty and Jeff are controllling. So far Scott seems to have been a great facilitator, while Jeff just likes to give the impression that he's in with the in-crowd!

You are right, of course. Kudos to Scott for coaxing TLOS out of him, and I actually have nothing against the fat guy with the high voice, either. But you get my point!

M-U-R-R-Y  ;D

My point is that it seems there is a conflict in the stories. Mike later stated in an interview that the reason Redwood didn't stick around was because Brian didn't care for their vocal tone quality, or the way they sang. He was too picky. But Hutton and company make it sound like Mike was not supportive and thus caused Brian to cave in. I just don't buy that.

I completely buy it.  It's not that much different than stories by Gary Usher, Roger Christian, and others who collaborated with Brian.  Mike wanted Brian's talents focussed on the Beach Boys, preferably with Mike as his collaborator/lyricist.  He didn't want the cash cow to graze in other people's pastures.

But I think Mike has always had a faulty assumption -- that if Brian wanted something badly, he would argue for it as forcefully or persuasively or stubbornly as Mike. And as has been seen, Brian doesn't often do that.

So -- Mike criticizes Brian for spending time with this other band.

Brian figures out an excuse for not working with them anymore.

Mike hears the excuse and thinks -- well, Brian just didn't want to do that.

Band goes on to become TDN.

Mike thinks -- man, Brian was lame. He should have worked on that band, given its potential. I mean, I (Mike) argued against it, but Brian didn't even put up a fight. He must not have believed in them.

So both stories are probably right -- it's just about how the people involved perceive them. I mean, Brian stuck up for himself for a long time. When mental illness interfered, how was Mike to know that his personality would shift in dramatic ways?

I have a feeling Mike likes to be persuaded that something is right. He doesn't go with instinct or promise -- he goes with what works. If you change it, you should defend it. A logical point, but not one that someone in Brian's state would necessarily understand or sympathize with.

That being said, I'm not a Mike defender most of the time. But he's much more like a lot of us than Brian is, I have a feeling.

I guess that's the difference between an artist and a businessman. Both totally understandable from one point of view but no so from the other's perspective

The only source for Mike & Carl chewing out Brian over Redwood (in the studio, no less) is Chuck Negron's autobiog. He claims Danny Hutton was there and also witnessed it. Anyone recall DH saying word one about it in all his interviews over the years ?

Thought not.  :)

I don't care for Mike, and I still don't buy it. I just don't see Brian being reduced to tears, which I believe it says in the book.

 The part I do believe, however, is when Mike is proud of his new mink coat and tells Chuck  to 'keep doing what your doing, maybe you'll get one someday'. That sees kinda Mike-ish.

Wasn't there a bit in Catch a Wave where Hutton recalls what happened and said sonething along the lines of "If I were Mike, I would've done the same thing." ??

True, but top of my head he doesn't say he actually saw what CN claims happened, just that Mike appropriated the Redwood material.

I've seen Hutton say that Redwood wanted to make an album but their Brothers' contract was only for singles so Hutton, et al said F it.

None of Brian's productions outside of the BBs ever caught on, before or after, so that might have been a little hyperbole on Mike's part. It used to be presumed that a supposed lack of promotion was the reason none caught on with the public, but you can YouTube Glen Campbell performing GID back in the day on national TV and still....

With speaking of Guess I'm Dumb, wouldn't it have been something if Brian included it on say: the Today! album?  I know it was written as a single as a sign of thanks for Glen, but it would have been quite appropriate with his help on the road ending.

With reading about Brother Records, one can think about John/Paul's ideas with Apple Records, their Apple Boutique store vs. Radiant Radish, producing for others (obvisouly the Beatles were far superior with The Iveys/Badfinger, Mary Hopkins, etc.) but with Brian, we had pre-TDN and that vocal of Let The Wind Blow by a lady named Amy. Any other prospects for Brother Records? We all know Charles Manson had his trial run.

IMO, all of it rings very true, and the fact that Danny Hutton hasn't mentioned it over the years doesn't invalidate it. It is a first-hand account by someone who achieved plenty of success after it went down and doesn't have any axe to grind. He says he got a bad, condescending vibe from Mike, that a "black cloud" descended when he came in, etc. Very
vivid. It doesn't mean that his pressure was the only reason that Brian stopped working with
Redwood, though.

Please Brian crying with Mike and Carl surrounding him! We have disagreed on Brian/Mike things on the past but  claymcc has got it completely right. Brian and Mike were working VERY well together in late 1967 Wild Honey is the result.

How credible is the rest of what's in Negron's bio?

The Redwood sessions were October 14th & 15th 1967. If what CN claims is true, it strikes me as a little odd that within 10 days Brian embarked on a series of 13 sessions that ran through to November 15th.

Exactly how much material is Brian known to have recorded with Redwood?   Was it just Darlin' and Time to Get Alone, or was there more?  And is TTGA the only track that's been released to date?

I've read from time to time that there's a whole album in the vaults but if there were only those two recording dates (as listed on Andrew's Timeline site - which only notes TTGA sessions) I doubt they'd've got an entire albums-worth in the can.

From what's on Andrew's site is it assumed that Redwood's Darlin' was maybe only ever an instrumental track, maybe not even that?

One doesn't have to believe every detail of Negron's story (Brian crying, Mike and Carl yelling at him) to believe the overall point - Mike didn't want Brian working with Redwood and giving them material that the Beach Boys might want to record.  Totally consistent with Mike's past and future behavior.

Negron's account is incredibly vivid and detailed. Too much to be dismissed, IMO.


Clay's point iss spot on. And I probably dislike  Love more than Clay does.

I've been told that the track on the BB release was recorded for Redwood (although the session info seems to contradict that). "TTGA" is the only other Redwood session know to exist.

No problem with believing that - it's exactly what Danny Hutton says anyway. The roadblock with me is Mike & Carl reducing Brian to tears in front of spectators (presumably the engineers at Wally Heider's as well).

The account seems very honest and unusually frank. Does anyone think that Negron
would purposely lie about events that he witnessed? ???

It's not unusual to have an interesting tale 'enhanced' with the years, each time you tell it, and Negron was writing a rock book. People don't buy those to know more about how TDN arranged their harmonies. The yelling and crying scene sounds like a huge exageration of something that really happened - the band unhappy with Brian's lack of interest in them and they asking him where he was standing.

Anyway... Carl would never do that, right?  ;)

I don't know what happened either but supposedly Brothers had just been formed so the group could produce product for themselves and others, so I highly doubt the group was upset that the group was doing what it wanted to do with the formation of Brothers.

I have a feeling the rest of the group may have had a question about Brian unilaterally using a track they had just recorded by the BBs for the BBs, but that's just me.

I doubt that Negron would lie, but I don't doubt that he might have got it wrong in his interpretation what he was witnessing; as I remember, he admits in the quote that he couldn't hear what was being said.

What vocal of Let The Wind Blow by what lady named Amy?

[koff] bootleg [koff]

Track is the same as the released version, solo vocal is female.

I wanna say it's someone Bruce brought in....i could be totally wrong though


I remember the sound quality being really bad on the track

You'd be totally right. He referred to her as a 'Mary Hopkin' type.

makes sense

I was given a copy of this female vocal many many years ago on a cassette, sounded like it was dubbed off of a scratchy acetate. Any idea who the vocalist is?

In Domenic Priore's SMiLE book a song by Brian and VDP called "Sunflower Maiden" was mentioned...

As I understand it, Mike wrote the lyrics to Darlin, therefore co-wrote the tune with Brian. The credits have always read Brian Wilson/Mike Love.... Hmmmm, If I was in a band with Brian and co-wrote a killer song with him and was excited for our band to record it, and then suddenly Brian's off recording/producing it for some other guys.... I'd be mighty pissed too!