The Smiley Smile Message Board

Van Dyke Parks says in Priore's Smile book that some Beatles went to Armen Steiner's studio at
Yucca and Argyle in L.A., where the Smile tapes were stored, and listened to "Smile, in part, the
first eight-track. We walked into the place and heard that The Beatles had been there. We knew that the nest had been found, and Brian was very sad. He felt violated, raped."

Of course, there was lots of mutual, consensual sharing of each other's works in progress at
the time, and Brian was in a somewhat irrational frame of mind, but this "incident" supposedly added to Brian's sense of paranoia at the time and would, if true, have been a significant breach of professional ethics, both on the part of the studio personnel and members of the Beatles themselves. Imagine how they would have felt if, on a trip by Brian to London, amidst an atmosphere of naive trust, albeit with an element of friendly competitiveness, he had gone to EMI or Abbey Road or wherever and finagled a clandestine, non-consensual listening session of side 1 of Sgt. Pepper?

It has been said "authoritatively" by many on a previous, related thread that this incident never
took place, and without revealing sensitive sources, how do you know that for sure? Van Dyke
finally opened up about his memories to Priore, and he was there and doesn't strike me as someone who would fabricate something out of gratuitous pettiness, even if he was expressing
long-suppressed pain at the dissolution of the album. There was plenty of generous, mutually
shared cross-pollination at the time, and perhaps this is making a mountain out of a molehill,
but if this really happened, it was a very symbolic betrayal of the sanctity of a sensitive, close-to
the-edge artist, which, combined with other sources of paranoia, contributed to his withdrawal
from the project and subsequent decline.

The whole truth may never be known, but why are you so sure that it never actually happened?
 ???

Namely because the Beatles whereabouts are known day by day.. After 8-29-66 John Lennon, Ringo Starr, and George Harrison were not here until after the Smile sessions were well and truly over. Paul openly attended the one session that the only one connection they had to Smile. They just weren't here. I strongly suggest you buy Mark Lewisohn's books or Keith Badman's or any of the multiple tomes that obsessively date where they were every single day. I don't even think Armen Steiner had the tapes to begin with.

I think there was a great sense of competitive emotions going on at the time.  Part of the whole Smile concept, after all, was to refocus the cultural discourse back to America after 2-3 years of British Invasion saturation.  Lots of guys wanted to show up the Beatles.  I think this is the head space from which Van Dyke would make a comment like that.  But the facts just don't line up.  I think the only way the Beatles could have heard the Smile sessions would have been if Taylor would have brought an acetate back to London for them to have a sneak peak at.  But there is no evidence this happened.  I chalk up the similarities between Pepper and Smile to the fact that both groups of artists were operating in the same cultural atmosphere and shared a bunch of influences (including each other).  And the thing is, the Beatles were monitoring everyone.  That was there game--to see what their competition was up to and then absorb that into their own work.  They absorbed the Beach Boys just like they absorbed Motown and Dylan and Frank Zappa and the Byrds etc.  You can see it in their music.  Dylan gets big and all of a sudden the Beatles have a Dylan thing going.  The Byrds break out and all of a sudden "And Your Bird Can Sing" shows up.  Pet Sounds hits, and "Here, There, and Everywhere" and Pepper shows up.  The Beatles actually started to wander when some of their main peers (Dylan and Wilson and the Byrds for example) checked out of the musical race in 1967.

Interesting thought !

The Beatles were in LA just before their SF 66 concert on Aug. 29, and I believe right after (I don't have my Beatles books with me right now to check the exact dates).  so they could have heard Good Vibrations and the tracks to Wind
Chimes, Wonderful, and Look/I Ran, IF Van Dyke's scenario had happened. 

One day Van Dyke will reveal that this whole Beatles thing was just a prank cause Priore kept bugging him about Smile misteries he hadn't thougt about for 40 years, and we'll all share a big laugh.  ;D

It's a great story and I believe it for that reason.
I don't care too much for the facts - the myth is much more exciting.

I am sure for the following reasons:

1 - no-one was in the right place at the right time until Pepper was being mixed.

2 - In the ensuing decades, and especially in the wake of the 2004 London premier of BWPS, Paul never said "oh yeah, heard that in 1966/67". Not once, and of all people, he would.

3 - shortly after the book was published, Van Dyke told a friend of mine that the basis for his claim that The Beatles covertly listened to the Smile tapes was that both albums contained sound effects (in itself a debateable point as the only FX I'm aware of is the fire sounds track on "Fire"... which VDP didn't hear until the late 70s). That was his sole piece of 'evidence'.

Oh, the Beatles were there. The Beatles and Beach boys were in an arms race. The Beatles were working covertly for the Masons and the Illuminati, while Brian Wilson was working with the radical west coast hippie/activist groups. Releasing Sgt. Pepper before Smile was key to the Beatles winning the arms race and silencing Brian Wilson. To get there first, and to make sure it would demoralize Brian (their covert goal) they stole ideas from the Smile tapes. The Beatles had to have stolen the ideas. Listen to Revolver. It is no where near as sophisticated as Sgt. Pepper and a far cry from Pet Sounds. Where did the inspiration come from? Well, Van Dyke knows. And don't think the Beatles would ever own up to it. They still said "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" wasn't about LSD until a couple of years ago, when Paul spilled the beans. 

Finally, someone who knows what  :quote REALLY :quote happened! And it was actually Billy Shears that spilled the beans, since the Illuminati murdered the real Paul when he was about to tell the truth back in the '60s!

You know the really scary thing ?  Some people actually believe this crap.  :o

I wish I was naive enough to actually believe it. It makes for a much better story than what happened in real life!

There are some other sound effects -

hammers/drills/etc. on Workshop

vegetable munching sounds on Vegetables

the tape explosion on Heroes cantina

some of the whistles etc. on Intro to Heroes (and Bag of Tricks) MIGHT be considered "sound effects" even though properly speaking they are just unusual instruments

the animal sounds/backing vocals of Barnyard

What are the sound effects in Pepper?  We have the orchestral crescendo in Day in the Life (this would fit in with the Intro/Bag of Tricks category), audience noise and applause in the title cut and reprise, animal sounds in Good Morning GM, the Lowery organ tape cut-up in Mr. Kite, and that's all I can come up with.  The rest of the album has voices and instruments treated in different ways to change their sound, but no other sound effects.

I would like to know what Van Dyke's actual words are.  He might have brought up the sound effects as "evidence" to support something to others that he believed on other grounds, such as "this is the story that was going around."  There's a lot of gossip that we believe because we heard such and such from other people, some of it true, some of it not.

This is no doubt common knowledge -- but without hitting the reference books -- when were the Smile tapes locked up? 
And would Derek Taylor have access to them nonetheless?  There was a period during which Brian went back and forth between saying that Smile would at some point be finished -- the understanding being that Smiley Smile was a quick move to get the record company off his back -- and considering it scrapped.  Could McCartney have had a listen to the Smile Vegetables etc. during the period of the recording of Smiley Smile, May 1967?  That would have been after the recording of Sgt. Peppers but before its release, hence it could still have fed Brian's paranoia.

Irrelevant - the point under discussion is that of the putative (but entirely disproven) influence on Pepper of The Beatles covertly hearing Smile tapes.

Awesome.

"Irrelevant - the point under discussion is that of the putative (but entirely disproven) influence on Pepper of The Beatles covertly hearing Smile tapes."

That's one of the points under discussion.  mutedts was also referencing what was behind Brian's paranoia.  If McCartney heard some of Smile and then a couple of months later Sgt. Peppers came out, Brian could well have thought that one thing led to another.  It wouldn't have been the strangest thought to pop into his mind, around then.

I seriously doubt "Pepper" was traumatizing to Brian at all. Reportedly, he was somewhat demoralized in Nov. '66 when "Strawberry Fields Forever" was released because he perceived it as the next big step in the "epic psychedelic pop" thing he had his mind set on (of course, this would have been at the same time "Good Vibrations" was topping the charts, so who knows...). Subsequently, Brian has had no problem in speaking fondly of "Pepper" which suggests he did not connect it to the "SMiLE" fiasco at all.

As for sound effects: those had appeared on plently of pop songs prior to the "SMiLE" recordings including the Beach Boys' own "409" and "Be True To Your School". The Kinks' "Face To Face" album (released mid-'66) had more blatant sound effects than either "SMiLE" or "Pepper".

The real freakout occured when Brian heard Gary Usher's production of "My World Fell Down" (which does sound suspiciously like the "SMiLE" sessions), especially since Bruce participated in the recording (a logical connection for even those not suffering from paranoia). I sometimes wonder if Bruce was kept at a distance from the recording of "Smiley Smile" because Brian was piqued over the Sagittarius recordings.

Still irrelevant - Smiley Smile was recorded June-July 1967. Pepper was released June 1st

Oh, silly me - of course... The Beatles had a time machine. That explains everything. ;D

It's getting a bit Bloo-ish around here: someone makes a spurious point, which is refuted with checkable facts, so they go off at another groundless tangent. And so on, and so on...

Andrew, are you referring to my comment regarding "My World Fell Down" as the "groundless tangent"? If so, what's your take on that particular piece of lore? Actually, even if you weren't referring to it, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion!

Mea culpa.  No more speculations on dates and timelines for me, with Mr. Doe present.

Thanks for the relative restraint in the sarcasm level in the response. I am actually a member in
good standing of the Illuminati and am extremely sensitive to irreverent comments concerning my sacred order.

Unfortunately I have a journalistic side that wants to be sure of the truth about things, but I
like your insouciant attitude about the whole affair (or non-affair). It really smacks of conspiracy theory, isn't the most important matter in the world, and was apparently logistically impossible,
so there it should rest, I guess. To me, AGD, the issue isn't whether it influenced Sgt, Pepper or
not, but the issues of privacy and integrity that would be involved. If Parks told you that the only suspicions he really had were re: the sound effect similarities, that directly contradicts what
he supposedly said when interviewed for the book, and whatever faults or biases Priore may have, I trust him to faithfully transcribe his subjects' quotes (perhaps that trust is misplaced, I
don't know). I believe he has also said that Parks was unburdening himself at length for the first time, with passion, and did not intend it as a "prank" as one poster jokingly said. Therefore, he was either telling you the truth, AGD, or told it to Priore (I would think that, if there were any truth to the tale, only Paul and George would have been present, although perhaps even that would have been physically impossible by a day-to-day chronology).

One poster said he doubted that the tapes were even at the studio, which would really paint
Parks as out-of-touch. Of course the members of the band were intently tracking the work of
their contemporaries, and there was a mutual bond and trust, which apparently is what Parks
said was violated. I am surprised that he would make unfounded assertions, but no matter how
undeniably talented, he is fallible like anyone else.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, believe me, I'm just a hard-working guy (without a very good job), and find the contradictions in this "mythical" incident to be interesting, especially if it really
was one of the perceived or real "betrayals" that played a role in the demise of the album (in its
time). :(

Nope - Brian was spooked by that, and it put his friendship with Usher under a lot of strain.

I too have a journalistic side, which is why, for me, it's proven beyond doubt that the event couldn't possibly have happened. The Beatles are one of the most heavily, and obsessively, researched bands in history, and the possibility that such an event had escaped the investigations of every single Fab researcher for some 40-odd years is, to me, inconceivable. Simply, no Beatle was in the USA between late summer 1966 and spring 1967, ergo, couldn't have happened.

BTW, in the interests of accuracy, VDP didn't tell me that, he told a mutual friend, in whom I have complete trust.

According to all the well researched Beatles day-by-day accounts that may be true, but on the other side, Paul and Neil Aspinall both stated Macca had the idea for the whole Sgt. Pepper-concept on a flight back from LA to London. And, correct me if I'm wrong, that had to be somewhere between the summer 1966 "Good Vibrations" and the April 1967 "Vega-Tables"-meetings, somewhere between late December 1966 + late February 1967.
I don't believe in the 'Beatles heard SMiLE-tapes' theory, but it wouldn't surprise me if Derek Taylor told the guys what the BB were up to. That doesn't mean that the Fab Four copied anything the BB did. The animals for example were inspired by a 1966 Corn Flakes commercial, which BTW was available on YouTube a while ago.

It's funny Bruce told me on the BBB that he doubted "My World Fell Down" "crossed Brian's radar".

i read it was on a trip round europe with Mal or someone like that. I think Van Dyke is barking up the wrong tree with this one. It's not like Derek taylor (that was the only connection between the two, right?) would deliberately sabotage however many months of hard promo work by letting the beatles get the upper hand, even if they were in LA (which we know isn't true).

You're right. You're always right. We should just all stop posting and let you do it all. Because we would hate to just sort of discuss 'What if's' for fun, and have you show up, post the 'facts', and have us dare to question them. Sorry to dissapoint you.

The main "vibe" that existed between members of the Beatles and Brian was one of mutual respect,
innocent, even naive trust and reciprocal inspiration. Obviously Paul went to and chomped vegetables
in the recording session for same, played "A Day in the Life" over the phone for Brian, etc. One would
assume that Derek Taylor, by all accounts a class act, wouldn't betray his new loyalties in favor of his old ones in any unethical way, which just makes this anecdote, told pretty specifically to Priore by
Parks, strange and incongruous. He said he and Brian were told, presumably by the staff, that "The
Beatles had been there", and moved the tapes out of the studio in response. Odd, if it douldn't have
happened. Maybe Paul never referenced it through the years because he felt some contrition and pangs of conscience about some behavior of his at the time. I don't necessarily think that his silence is
adequate criteria for saying that nothing questionable of any kind happened.

Insofar as Pepper is concerned, they obviously didn't need additional musical inspiration other than the desire to assert their avant-garde supremacy in this short-lived, fecund, envelope-pushing period which Brian wound up not being a key figure in, at least after PS and GV, when he could have reached a glorious, triumphant peak with the completion and release of his stillborn, epic magnum opus.

That's my last word on the subject, unless further information ever comes to light (I can hear the sigh of relief from the "don't beat a dead horse" contingent loud and clear). :)

"Be true to your school"? I don't know what you are talking about exactly. The Cheerleaders? Wouldn't count them as "sound effect". But you're right on the whole.
Jan&Dean also used sound effects much earlier than '66/'67. The '66 Batman-album has some cool ones.



Special mentioning of "Caroline, no"'s end ! If the Beatles' took the idea for animal-sounds from the Beach Boys, what would be more probable? The barking dog at the end of Pet Sounds, which they have heard and at least in Paul's case were blown away by, or the sounds on "Barnyard" which they couldn't have heard by that point...? Hm, tough question....

Envy is a most unattractive emotion.  ;D

Van Dyke's assertions show, if anything, Brian's powerful ability (at the time) to draw people into his own paranoias. Van Dyke is not the only one from the SMiLE era to say crazy stuff like that. Others talk about how Brian had them really believing that his house was bugged (By Phil Spector? The Beatles? His Dad? All Three?), for example. He was a powerful figure in the mid-60s, and even the fanaticism around SMiLE in his own circle at the time shows how much people believed in Brian Wilson. Like Van Dyke said, the first thing he thought when heard the BWPS recordings in 2004 was that SMiLE was a lot 'smaller' than he remembered, not as expansive. They thought they were going to change the face of the world with music. It was a time of irrational beliefs.

The only influences from the Beach Boys I hear in Sgt. Pepper are from Pet Sounds and "Good Vibrations" ("Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" sounds influenced by "Good Vibrations" to me, which would then be followed by the Stones "She's Like A Rainbow", forming a triumvirate of acid love songs). If the strongest evidence of the Beatles hearing SMiLE in '66/early '67 is animal noises on "Good Morning", then the whole argument is moot. Besides, fucking animal sounds? Who cares? It's not that big of deal. I never understood what was so brilliant and experimental about that idea. I think George Martin still pats himself on the back everyday for helping John Lennon see that idea through. It will probably be on his tombstone: "I produced the fucking animal sounds on "Good Morning", enough said."

Just a couple of thoughts while i'm thinking!!

1) I think it has been stated in the Paul Williams conversations with David Anderle that Smile was a very personal voyage of discovery for both Brian and Van Dyke. The intimacy that these two shared in the writing process was perhaps what made most of the music so very special. But sometimes i get a sense when Van Dyke has spoken of the Smile era that somehow he felt betrayed, that the bond between the two creators was not allowed to fulfill it's potential. Whether it was the Beach Boys or the many hangers on, that drew the wedge between Brian, himself and the album it doesn't really matter. But what is apparent and this has possibily intensified over the years with the many bootlegs is that Van had lost the bond with Smile. It was longer his own work, but has become tainted and abused by the many myths and stories that his own personal feeling about the music and his involvement no longer matters. This was probably somewhat rectified when he was called back to work on BWPS, but i can't help feeling that Van has always resented not the fact that Smile didn't come out, but that he wasn't allowed to finish the job and that perhaps some other band did.

So having said that it's quite possible that he has cynical feelings about those times. Such as people (The Beatles!!) stealing the music/ideas that he and Brian lovingly crafted. Perhaps it was paranoia, or maybe someone fed him a story, but i do believe that somehow he believes that The Beatles did sneak a preview of their work and that it is just another example to him of the lack of privacy afforded to them. Which perhaps leads to point 2;

2) The studios of LA were not closed shops. They didn't seem to have locks on the doors when recording sessions were in flow. Many people attended the sessions, many of which had no real ties to the artists themselves, other than they knew a friend of a friend, or that they were a musician etc. Spector had loads of people at his sessions, in fact he thrived on them being there. There's the stories of Brian and Gary Usher hearing a Curt Boettcher session and being blown away. Frank Zappa had a whole army at his sessions. The point is that if anyone wanted to hear what was going on, could and most probably would, just by going down the studio. The studio was where it was at. Forget live performances. Read the Jules Siegel article about the Fire session and you have an example.

What i'm saying is that Brians Smile music was probably as well known to the many people around Brian as it was to him and Van Dyke. The multitudes of acetates, listening parties, just Brian talking about it, would spread the word. The Beatles or whoever didn't need to have sneaky visits to locked up vaults to hear about the music. The people around Brian and Van Dyke most likely did it for them. And that would surely be where the influence (if any) came from. George Martin himself said in Beautiful Dreamer that he and the Beatles heard about Smile.......then it never appeared. Just the same for everyone else then.

This doesn't sound like a vague recollection of half-remembered, paranoid conspiracy theory though.  This comes across as a distinct and painful memory, with a specific location, etc.  VPD places himself in the scene with the words "we walked into the place and heard that The Beatles had been there."  That sentence doesn't sound like it's based on a mutual use of sound effects. 

The problem I have with that quote is with the "eight-track" part. Steiner's studio couldn't play eight-track tapes in 1966/67 - Columbia had the only 8-track in town. Remember, VDP also said, in the same book, that he went round to Brian to get him to finish up "SO,S" in 1972 - with his Walkman !

Oh, I don't doubt Vand Dyke already believed this crap in '66 or '67. You had to be there, man! It STILL doesn't mean it actually happend. He says he hung out a bit with Lennon in '74, I hope he confronted the former Beatle about it.  :lol

Bingo, Menace! Although your post was eloquent, Dada, and your point is well taken, there is a big difference between a sharing, open environment during recording sessions during a fertile, open era, and members of a gigantically famous rival band visiting a facility where its competition's recordings are stored and requesting access to them without explicit permission from that music's creator. Granted,
this was a time when these types of privacy issues had not become important and were not really on
everyone's radar yet, and whatever Van Dyke and Brian did or didn't experience, it felt like a violation to them as artists and a loss of whatever communal innocence and inter-band trust had been established, at least at the time. Brian has completely put any such episode behing him or forgotten about it, Paul isn't talking if there is anything to talk about, and Parks obviously is expressing his thoughts and feelings after years of justified, pent-up frustration (although he has of course moved on with his life completely, it's natural that he still has emotions, especially since he has compartmentalized it for years and hasn't talked much about it, either out of respect for Brian's sensitivity to the subject or his own reticence), he has a biographer to tell his side more completely to, the album has been released (sort of) and Brian has come to terms with it, making him feel more free to expound at length.

There is a ring of specificity to the anecdote, Menace, to my mind also. Priore has said that he included
it in the book because it was "important to Van Dyke", and of course he may just have been caught up in Brian's potent paranoia, but, almost like a traumatic repressed memory that is either real or
not, its real for him.

I vowed to not say anything more about it here, but some vows are made to be broken. ;D

The technological incongruities in Van Dyke's mental database are irresolvable, Andrew, I agree. ???

Really good post, Andy B. I picked out a portion of it to comment on.

If Van Dyke felt that SMiLE "has become tainted and abused by the many myths and stories that his own personal feeling about the music and his involvement no longer matters" - and I agree with most of that point - well, he could've and still could do something about it. He could address and "straighten out" those myths and stories. Van Dyke never seems to suffer from a lack of words, but, to the best of my knowledge, has never sat down FOR A LENGHTY QUESTION AND ANSWER INTERVIEW regarding SMiLE, not in the subsequent 42 years, which I still find hard to believe. Do you think he has been approached? I have read statements here and there, but never any follow-up questions addressing his comment(s); maybe that's the fault of the interviewers. How many threads were started on this message board alone, wondering about this song or that song, but there was little or no information on file from Van Dyke Parks (or Brian) to inform us. And, of course, we wouldn't even think of asking Van Dyke or Brian about it; couldn't do that. What I have read from Van Dyke has been some praise and positivity, but mostly criticism and negativity. That's sad, really.

Andy, you also wrote, "Van has always resented not the fact that SMiLE didn't come out, but that he wasn't allowed to finish the job and that perhaps some other band did." Not disagreeing with you Andy, but, not ALLOWED to finish the job"? Who's fault was that? Was he fired? Did Brian ask him to leave? Did he accept an offer for a solo album? Yeah, it was that no-talent Mike Love's questions and objections that forced him out. And Van Dyke was sure to make THAT known over the years.

Van Dyke has picked and choosed (or chosen?) the points that he wanted to make about SMiLE over the years; he's been very selective. Come on, Van Dyke, sit down and answer ALL of the fans questions. It wouldn't take that long. You could do it in one afternoon or one evening. Straighten out the myths and falsities. Clear it with Brian; he probably wouldn't care anyway. Van Dyke doesn't have a wife who posts here, does he? ;D

He may be torn between wanting to leave it all behind him once and for all (next to impossible) and
setting the record straight, and the lengthy interview session with Priore for his book was as close
as he wanted to come, dredging up old scars as it did (as well as hopefully providing catharsis). BWPS must have opened up old wounds, as well as being positive and giving him some closure. I wonder how much there really is left to say?

I think there is much left to say, not necessarily about the political crap that went down (though that would be fascinating), but about the music, lyrics, production, sessions, and maybe even the overall concept/sequence. I mean, just look at our threads and all of the unanswered questions that come up; good, valid questions. Granted, Brian would have, if not more, at least as much to offer. But really, after Brian, who knows as much about SMiLE than Van Dyke Parks? He knows that too...

Been re-reading Dom's book, and something interesting emerged. On p.112, right after it being stated that on April 29 1967 Capitol were told by Brian that the next BB single would not be "H&V" but rather "Vega-Tables", comes this paragraph (emphasis added):

"This, in fact, was a ploy that showed how serious Brian Wilson, David Anderle and The Beach Boys were in breaking from Capitol. The master tapes, for the time being, were oddly stored catercorner from the Capitol Records parking lot (and across from KFWB) at Armen Steiner's Sound Labs studio*."

For the time being. Not "for some time", or "for several months" - "for the time being", that is, temporarily. So, now we have a date for the tapes in question being at the studio in question: April 1967, and according to the book, they'd not been there long.

The Pepper sessions wrapped the first week in April 1967 (overdubs to existing tracks) and by mid month, the mixing was well under way. Taking the book itself as evidence, the famous covert listening session, even had it occurred, couldn't possibly have influenced the essential music and overall form of the album.

[* - actually it was Sound Recorders, which AS operated from 1965-71: Sound Labs was from 1971-80]

You know, I never really thought it was the Beatles style to rip anyone off. Seems to me that they'd acknowledge where they got their inspiration from, if indeed they did get inspiration from SMiLE-which, most people have agreed, never happened in the first place.
You know, VDP has brass onions to flat out say that the Beatles stole from SMiLE. If I was an Paul or Ringo, and I worked hard on that album, and 40 years later a guy says 'you know, The Beatles came in without our knowledge, listened to SMiLE tapes, and then made Sgt. Pepper', I'd be a little bit pissed off.  That's why I think that VDP really believes that it happened, although since it's 40 years on, he must have his events confused. Or a case of sour grapes.
Of all the people who have championed SMiLE over the years, David Anderle always comes to the fore. He's always been passionate about the music. It seems like if the discussed event really took place, he also would have mentioned it, as something like that strikes me as being something that would greatly offend him.

Yeah Van Dyke has definitley held back over the years, and i think he has done for two reasons. First out of loyalty to Brian (he possibily alone knew how much Brian was hurt by smile not coming out - why intensify that hurt by talking about it? - Maybe the odd soundbite has come out over the years simply out of frustration), and secondly because of guilt. He openly admits in Beautiful Dreamer that he and his cohorts - Anderle, Vosse, Siegel etc - all fled when the going got tough. Instead of fighting his corner he high tailed thinking his job was done, when perhaps deep down he knew it wasn't. On the one hand he was just the hired lyricist, but on the other he and Brian knew that what they had together (and they still do) was something special and that it should have been something worth fighting over.

Whatever the reason Van left Brian is in this context irrelevant. The fact is he did leave Brian, and he has most likely resented that decision ever since.

My father, rest his soul, had a favorite saying: "it's a wise man who knows when to say **** it". I see no dishonor in bailing on a hopeless situation.

I just want to reiterate, once again, that I am not particularly interested in whether or not The Beatles
stole influences from Smile in the making of Sgt. Pepper, I just introduced the thread because several
posters had said dismissively that clandestine listening couldn't possibly have taken place, and that
directly contradicted Van Dyke's statements, which was interesting, so I wanted to open up that discussion a bit more, that's all. World peace, anyone? :3d

And... I'm just pointing out - with evidence from several sources, including from within Dom's book itself - that said covert listening simply could not have taken place at all (and even if it did - yeah, I know, undermining myself - it was too late to influence The Beatles' new album).

Sorted - world peace and candy bars all round. Maybe a trip to P.O.P. too.  ;D

Assuming that this story isn't true, and that there's no possible way that the Beatles could have heard those tapes...

Why would Van say that Brian felt "raped"?  If not by The Beatles, then by whom?  Or is Van just being dramatic?

Does he actually say 'raped'? It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I don't recall that. That would be a little bit over the top, it seems....

Mr. Doe, I great piece of detective work here.  Thank you.

"We knew that the nest had been found, and Brian was very sad. He felt violated, raped."  Page 116. In the same paragraph, Van Dyke states unequivocally that "Derek Taylor facilitated The Beatles listening to Smile before (my emphasis) the advent of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Before that started, they heard Smile in part..." - something we've now clearly established is utterly impossible.

Well... all I did was read the book... but thanks.

Not only that, but "the only conspicuous offense Brian and I recall was when we heard that The  Beatles had heard the tapes of Smile at Armen Steiner's. That changed his attitude completely. It
made him a lot more defensive; it made him question the loyalties of the people who were working
for him, the professional integrity of the studios to keep a client relationship confidential". Priore adds that "Exactly what happened with Derek Taylor and The Beatles at Armen Steiner's studio once the Smile tapes were stored there in early 1967 may never be certain". It appears not.

But just because recording of Pepper had wrapped when the tapes were first placed there doesn't preclude any such incidents from having occurred, though other logistical factors might. Enigmatic. ??? ;)

This whole suggestion by VDP sounds like sour grapes to me. The fact is plain and simple: the Beatles got there first. The suggestion they had to steal or borrow from Brian is absurd. Have a listen to Tommorow Never Knows. I'd say they were on a pretty well-defined path to the aural experience of Sgt Peppers without the need to covertly listen to Smile. The experimentation on the album is pretty much where everyone was headed in 1967 anyway, and not some grand secret society to which only Brian and Van were privy.

I love Smile. I prefer BB material to the Beatles. However, I won't ever to agree the suggestion that the world's premiere pop/rock act were so bereft of talent that they had to pilfer other artists' work to call their own.

It is quite possible that bothe Brian and JL/PM reached their relevant musical nirvanas independant of each other.

Or perhaps during this holiest of holy secret pilfering the Beatles happened to hear "Teeter Totter Love" and figured they could definitely do better.

 
I wouldn't compare it to how I feel about the Beach Boys but I do consider myself a Beatles fan. I can't help but agree with you here, they were doing there own thing. All the top groups influenced each other, but Brian didn't steal from them and they didn't steal from him. They were good competition and got each other to try harder but that's it. I think Smile was amazing it was among the best of the best,  but I also feel that 1966-1967 was just about the apex of the 1951-71 period that I see as the golden age of music. The Beach Boys were at the forefront, Brian was influential, but there was so much talent then that deserves praising. The Beatles and dozens of others stand on their own.

Totally agree.

Though as Beach Boys historians value must given to the theory that the Beatles did hear some of the Smile music. Why? Well, not because of what the Beatles may or may not have stolen, but what the effect on Brian was. If Brian did honestly believe that the Beatles had stole some of his ideas, or that they were privy to certain tapes, then how would that affect Brian. Would it be just another example of his ever growing paranoia, would it be the final straw that tipped him over the edge? Was the thought that he had been violated or raped the thing that stopped his work on Smile. If Brian was told that the Beatles had found the nest, then who told him? Where would Brian (or Van Dyke for that matter) have got the idea from?

We have proven that it was more or less impossible for the Beatles to have heard Smile tapes first hand from a studio in L.A. But they could still have heard bits of Smile via acetate form, or even by word of mouth (ideas / concepts etc). We know that Lou Adler gave Paul McCartney a sneak preview of Pet Sounds before Bruce Johnston flew over to the UK. We also know that Derek Taylor was Byrds publicist around the time the Bealtes started sounding Byrds like. He was also publicist for Captain Beefheart - and what stickers did John Lennon have on his wall? Captain Beefheart Safe As Milk ones of course!! I know those examples are pretty obtuse and insubstantial, but i wouldn't bet against two way communications across the Atlantic taking place between those people who surrounded Brian and those who worked in England. That was how the music biz worked.

Yeah, but the Beatles started to sound Byrds-like AFTER THE LP Mr. TAMBOURINE MAN WAS RELEASED. Of course the Beatles heard some of Smile before beginning to record Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Good Vibrations, part of Smile, was a #1 hit in England, they just had to turn on the radio.

We're talking about a behind-the-trenches conspiracy between Derek Taylor and the Fab Four to steal ideas from the great Brian Wilson. I know this is a fan board and all, but would we give the idea any time of the day if it was Brian and Derek stealing ideas fom the December Beatles sessions?

Here comes the boring conservative assessment from an alternate juror:

(1) To me, proof is an absolute word without much degree (or wiggle room) to it, so on the question of whether the Beatles could possibly have heard some tapes in August, 1966 or whenever, I don't think anything here will ever meet that standard, or even come very close. Remember that the Beatles themselves, as of fifteen years ago, could not agree on whether they jammed with Elvis- friggin' ELVIS-  that same week.  So hearing some very incomplete Beach Boys tapes may not have registered as big with them as we might imagine.

(2) Having said that, based on the evidence, I would strongly guess that they didn't. 

(3) It's important to remember that Van Dyke's story is second hand to begin with (right?): "I was told..."  Who knows what someone told him?  To give it any credible scholarly attention we'd need to go to the source. As it stands, though, exact words can be a red herring, especially with hearsay.  What if his story is partly correct, or based on some kind of truth, and (say) some dubs were sent overseas?  The evidence of that is entirely lacking, and I predict that it will remain so because (I think) it didn't happen.  But I can't call the story- or the essence of the story- disproven.  That's too strong. I think "completely unsubstantiated" will do fine.

(4) Paul asked for an acetate of "Good Vibrations", right?  Not sure what my point is there, but it does show that the Beatles were interested. Maybe the whole story grew out of that.

(5) As for Van Dyke, as always, I say give the guy a break.  I have always liked the phrase "zone of tolerance" since I heard it used in politics, and I certainly think VDP has earned one.  If anyone you know is a great scholar of his own life, give that guy a wide berth. This is just a guy going back forty years to an experience that was bitter to begin with, and repeating something somebody told him. I doubt he's as well read on himself as any of us are.

(6) But to me, the most important point is this:  I don't hear anything on Pepper that is remotely lifted from SMiLE. Even the animal noises- supposedly from Pet Sounds- have a very credible pedigree: they come from the same Kelloggs commercial that inspired the song itself. Did the Beatles "steal influence" from Cornelius, the Kelloggs rooster? 

I don't believe in the idea of "stolen influence" anyway (a phrase someone here used which gets right to the heart of the matter).  Influence is legitimate; plagiarism is not; copying is a grey area in between. In relation to SMiLE, though,  Sgt. Pepper shows no significant signs of any of the three.  The Beatles have always said that Sgt. Pepper was most influenced by another album, anyway- Pet Sounds.  So what's the hassle?

I didn't read the whole thread carefully before posting, so if I made any mistakes or misrepresented anything, my apologies, and have at me.

En Garde! If the story is true, Van and Brian were told directly , presumably by a studio staff member, that Beatles had been there, so it's not second hand, except that they didn't actually
witness Beatles members there themselves.

AGAIN, I am not concerning myself with whether or not Sgt. Pepper somehow stole, or at least
was influenced by, illicit Smile access, Andrew's timeline would seem to preclude that. I'm sure they were still VERY interested in hearing his work even after Pepper recording was finished,
but not with the intention of purloining ideas or sounds. My only interest is in whether a fledgling bond or trust that had developed between the two musical forces (and human beings involved) was really violated, or whether it was just Brian and Van Dyke's paranoia that led them to imagine, invent or exaggerate the incident in their minds. Parks' account, IMO, has the ring of something based on a truthful, specific memory. :o

"En Garde! If the story is true, Van and Brian were told directly , presumably by a studio staff member, that Beatles had been there, so it's not second hand, except that they didn't actually
witness Beatles members there themselves. "

Actually, that would meet my definition of second hand, as it comes to us, and as per my original point.  Especially the "presumably" part.  Who says, for the record, speaking for themselves, that they- first hand- witnessed the Beatles there listening to SMiLE session material?  Someone saying "I was told..." always meets my personal understanding of second hand.  In court it's called hearsay. Either way, Van Dyke Parks was not representing what he knew personally to be true, but what he was told, or understood that he was being told, or recalled being told. Same as with his Dennis-beating-up-Manson story.

Again, I don't think this story is true, either- in detail or in essence.  Even if it were, since Pepper (in my nominally humble opinion) doesn't resemble SMiLE in any significant way, the only possible relevance of it (again, my opinion, which you cannot prove is not humble) is whether it really did feed Brian's paranoia or make him feel even more betrayed- which wouldn't amp me up much either.

But as to whether or not the story has been emphatically disproved in detail and essence, someone refresh me again on why they couldn't have heard anything during August of 1966? Which I don't think they did? Or why stuff couldn't have been sent to them elsewhere or played over the phone- which I very seriously doubt it was- giving the story an essence of truth with important details mangled after forty years?  Or why the Beatles couldn't have heard SMilE tapes, as described, albeit too late to "influence" Sgt. Pepper, which Brian, Van Dyke, and others may not have known was finished, since it wasn't yet released, making the story true except for the "stolen influence" part? To prove that it happened too late to influence Sgt. Pepper is not to disprove the story- just one subjective part of it.

"Proof" is an absolute word.  Proving something didn't happen is typically harder than proving something did.  Though discrediting some details is often possible, as in this case, it doesn't rule out every aspect of the story.  I just think it's totally unsubstantiated, very stale, and irrelevant gossip.  Just my opinion. No, screw that. It's a damn good opinion.  ;D

Point I've been waiting for someone to pick up on...

Having established that the tapes were in Steiner's studio April 1967, in fact it is possible that a Beatle managed a covert listen. Paul was in LA then. Of course, it makes a nonsense of VDP's claims for it to have influenced SPLHCB, but it was possible... but hugely unlikely unless Derek Taylor had some very elastic morals and principles.

Yes, and just to be a total twit about this, "they"- whatever tapes existed at a given point- could possibly have been at the Steiner studio at other time periods for a week here or there, right?  Who the F. knows? 

Documentary evidence of vintage tape-movements has to be pretty scarce at this point. What's amazing is that this evidence has come forward.  Catch me up, Andrew- was the Steiner studio a specific part of the VDP claim?  If so, this would be a bizarrely specific sort of corroboration (and referring to a point when Parks was well off the project) while also mooting the whole point of the story. 

The ethics issue is maybe a little hazy to me, since Paul and Brian were playing things from the two albums for each other at every opportunity, but yeah, if I was in Taylor's position I certainly wouldn't have played the stuff for anyone without asking Brian first.  It could have been viewed as anything from subterfuge to just a lapse in judgement.

Someone refresh my memory. Was it the Williams/Anderle conversation where Anderle states that Brian always felt that Taylor's loyalty lay with the Beatles? I know I read that somewhere.

Danny Hutton in Beautiful Dreamer also claims that Taylor's press clippings on Brian and the BB at the time was a coded "warning". 

It has been disproven that the Beatles could not have heard SMiLE in L.A.  But I certainly wouldn't put it past Mr. Taylor (who DID go back to the UK to work for Apple) to have either played SMiLE tracks to the Beatles' inner circle or at least put the word in that this California Kid is doing Something Monumental.

VDP specifically stated the tapes were stored at Steiner's studio... however, he also equally specifically stated that The Beatle(s) heard, and I quote, "the first eight-track". Which is impossible as in early 1967, Sound Recorders wasn't equipped with a 8-track. And that, it's just dawned on me, negates any possibility of anyone listening to the tapes at Sound Recorders, assuming VDP is accurate about the tapes being stored there. I'm investigating this.

He sure as hell did the latter - as Beach Boys publicist it was, after all, his salaried responsibility.  ;D

My question all along has been: how is this "proven"?  We've decided that the August 1966 visit didn't happen, or every moment of their time is accounted for, or what? And we also somehow know that- relevant to Pepper or not- they couldn't possibly have heard something in April 1967, even when Paul was sitting in on a session? How do we know this? I've lightly read most of the thread now, but missed the proof.

Andrew, I still need to read what the exact original VDP claim was, since I haven't gotten around to reading DP's book yet- it's still sitting on my shelf, signed by the author and Tony Asher- but I think you've shown that it's not going to hold up in any kind of detail.  What remains of interest is whether there's any kernel of accurate information there at the heart of it.  I would have guessed not, but turning up the information that "masters"- (an intriguing comment in itself- April, 1967 masters of "Heroes" and "Vegetables"?)- were stored in the right place at the right time to coincide with this odd story is highly interesting and totally unexpected. 

The best case scenario, to me, is this: since the Beatles story in itself doesn't seem really compelling (maybe they heard something, maybe they didn't; most likely not, but in either case Pepper is hardly a song cycle of Americana), maybe this weird little bit of arcana leads somewhere that is interesting.

The next obvious step is to find out what DP's source was for the sentence on page 112.  Man, if I wrote a book like that, I'd footnote the hell out of it. 

And on a side note, what's the basis for saying that changing the single from "H & V" to "Vegetables" was "a ploy that showed how serious Brian Wilson, David Anderle and The Beach Boys were in breaking from Capitol"?  Absent more and clearer information, that's no more than a highly subjective theory.

OK, if we accept the info as related by VDP as being accurate as he recalls it, it falls down immediately he says "eight-track" in reference to the tapes stored at Sound Recorders, because the studio didn't have an eight-track console until late 1967/early 1968. Ergo, even if the tapes were there - no way to listen to them. And yes, between August 1966 and April 1967, The Beatles time is acounted for pretty much day-by-day.

VDP further claims that The Beatles heard the tapes in LA before they embarked on Pepper, which just isn't possible as they were not in the USA then. Further, I've established to my satisfaction, if no-one else's, that the book claims the tapes were taken from Capitol and/or Western (neither of which had an 8-track, btw) and stored in Sound Recorders in April 1967, or slightly prior (en passant - what would be the point of storing 8-track tapes somewhere that couldn't play them ? The obvious - indeed only - choice would be Columbia).


Here's an idea, admittedly off the wall: what if some engineer at Sound Recorders did tell VDP and Brian that... as a joke ?


Never seen any refernece to masters - just "the first eight-track". 

Might seem like I beating this to death, but just trying to point out that once you start to examine VDP's claims in the light of known and established facts, even superficially, it all falls apart. To sum up concisely - the timeframe is wrong, the mechanics are unworkable and VDP is relaying, at best, 2nd hand information. It never happened because it couldn't have.

The thing is, 40 year old memories simply aren't reliable given what is known about the way the human mind works.  What we remember is never an accurate picture of what really happened, it's more the way we think it should have happened.  It's the same as when you gather with a group of old friends and talk about something that happened long ago and nobody remembers it the same way.  It isn't that anyone is being untruthful, it's just that the truth as they recall it isn't necessarily reflective of the actual event.  So it's entirely possible that VDP clearly remembers such an event happening when in fact it never did.  Obviously Smile was a very complex situation for all involved, and such a story could go a long way towards explaining why it all went so terribly wrong.  The mind is a strange, strange thing.  That's my two cents anyway.  Carry on! 

Nothing wrong with that thought- it's perfectly plausible.  Along the same lines, it's also very possible that someone was relaying something to VDP- who knows how much later?  (again, I need to look at the source for all this)- that could have been fifth or sixth or seventh hand, inflated at every stage, and was what somebody thought VDP wanted to hear. The sleeper theory says that we remember the gossip long after we forget the source (and whether or not it was ever credible).



"The master tapes, for the time being, were oddly stored catercorner from the Capitol Records parking lot (and across from KFWB) at Armen Steiner's Sound Labs studio."

 
Nah, we're all beating it to death (and especially me); it deserves to be hashed out.  

Yeah, I would certainly agree that it's been established, for example, that a purported listening session in April, 1967 could not have influenced Pepper, and I'm comfortable with saying that eight track masters could not have been played at that studio at that time.  I would certainly agree that specifics of the Parks story have been discredited.  But from there, we've leaped all the way to this:



Quite a different and bolder statement, repeated throughout this thread. Whatever the relevance to anything.

The Parks story certainly doesn't hold up in detail, despite one oddball bit of apparent corroboration of one part of it- the tapes being at that studio during a Beatle visit to L.A.  But as to the broader statement- the Beatles' movements are certainly known day by day, but hour by hour?  If there was even one visit to Capitol on Vine, they'd be in the right area with a window of time that might be very hard to close.

This may be off the wall a little, but: over in Toluca Lake, Bob's Big Boy has a booth with a little plaque in it that says that on such-and-such a date, (1964 or '65), "...John Lennon,  Paul McCartney,  George Harrison, and Ringo Starr sat in this booth".  Is there any other account of them that places them at Bob's Big Boy on that day?  (I have no idea, but I guess that it'd take some digging). Granted they were there, who's to keep Papoo's Hot Dog Show, which is (and was) right across the street, from claiming that they also stopped in there for butterscotch milkshakes?  The point is, I'd be surprised if even THEIR movements were tracked and documented thoroughly enough to rule out what could have been a very brief stop at a place that was right in an area where they were known to be.  

And just to make the slope slipperier, what if the plaque- which presumably would have been ordered and made somewhat later, had the wrong day?  Somebody thought it was last Wednesday, but it was last Tuesday?  Happens all the time. That would be enough, for some, to totally undermine and discredit an otherwise true story.  What if they just sat in there for five minutes having a coke while the limo gassed up next door?  Now the time frame may not support a true story. I could go on (and I know you believe that)!

So the threshold for "proof" should be very high- especially for a broad statement.

I just checked, and oddly enough, Mark Lewisohn doesn't mention the April, 1967 L.A. visit at all in his Chronicle book, but he leaves a blank from April 8 though 16, so I guess it must have been then.

And as to August 25-29, 1966, when some recording had been done, when we know they heard "Good Vibrations" (am I right on that?), and during a period for which the Beatles could not remember whether or not they jammed with Elvis, I don't know what the disproof is- again, of a general listening session, not the details of the Parks story.

Very, very true.  I've learned over the years never to completely credit even eyewitness memories (which this isn't), especially those going way back, or completely discount them.

In researching some animation history (my old field), I had an older artist describe to me an episode he said he had witnessed involving a certain famous animator.  Later, I asked him when he had started at the studio and he said "1957".  The artist in question had been killed in 1952.  Many, many examples of this.

On the other hand, in the mid-eighties, I read a book on the sinking of the Titanic that included eyewitness accounts of the ship breaking up at the surface, according to people who were in the water or in boats and saw it happen. The author quoted many experts who verified that this hadn't happened, and explained why it was very unlikely and gave various reasons that the eyewitnesses were all wrong. The book ended by saying that someday the Titanic would be found, on her side but intact  on the ocean floor.  A few months later Robert Ballard found it and of course it was shown to have broken apart at the surface (both ends resting upright), with eyewitnesses trumping perceived wisdom in that case. The book was immediately re-issued- heavily revised.

So it's wise to be conservative.  The truth, when we're fortunate enough to get it,  isn't always entirely logical.

Well, there was the Beatles out-take in June 67 of "The Teeter Totter Mystery Tour"!  ;D

[/quote]
Couldn't BW's 'paranoid' ideas about Spector & Murry be related to the move? If Brian thought people were trying to get him in some way, BW might stash the tapes at an unlikely location to keep the mind gangsters off his trail...?

Yeah, Nick Grillo and Andrew, I'd had that same question, but not only that- why were 8-track reels at Capitol and/or Western to begin with if they couldn't play them? 

One more: the "GV" vocals were done at Columbia, thus they don't exist/aren't available. What other SMiLE masters were done on 8 tracks at Columbia?  If we know what reels are 8-track, we can possibly nail down what reels the Beatles are supposed to have heard, and also eliminate anything not recorded prior to August 25-29, 1966 from that window of opportunity.  Provided of course that anyone still takes the basic story in all of its problematic details seriously enough to scrutinize.

We need Mark Linnett and Alan Boyd in this thread at some point.

And incidentally, Andrew and I aren't beating a dead horse here.  At this stage, it's still a dying horse being killed off (eventually to be interred with "Remember The Zoo").  And I'm trying to find out if it has any bastard colts that might require saving.   ;D

What I posted here was irrelevant, so I wish to retract it. :P

I assumed he is meaning the first 8 tracks. As in the first eight tracks that they more or less completed.

The quote is very specific: "the first eight track". No 's'.

Could VDP, for some strange reason, be confusing The Beatles with Gary Usher? As we all know, according to legend Brian was shocked to find out that Usher has heard some SMiLE tapes. The release of Usher's  'MWFD' only added to Brian's already growing paranoia, as he felt it contained sequences similar to SMiLE. Of course, like most things of the SMiLE era, the story may only be half true, with other people's recollections tossed in. At any rate, if it is true, funny that VDP didn't bitch about that track in relation to people listening to SMiLE music without permission.

Presumable most of the four track instrumental tapes were transferred to 8 track for overdubbing vocals at columbia, as was done for Good Vibrations.  But the "first 8 track" doesn't make much sense - There were eight track tapes of individual songs for overdubbing, but the only compilation tape I know of is the December comp tape - Dec 18, 1966:

Prayer (10/4/66)
Wonderful (10/6/66)
Cabinessence (10/11/66)
Cabinessence (12/6/66)
Child is Father of the Man (10/12/66) – 2 tracks
Do You Like Worms (10/18/66)

(dates are mixing dates)

There was also a Vegetables tape that had a few different pieces on it, but I doubt they heard that as they were working on Vegetables at the time of Paul's visit - and there was the January Heroes tape with the one day's work on the song all on one tape. 

Just had a reply from someone who was at Sound Recorders at the time - don't get excited, it's nothing like a definitive answer, but there was one oblique comment that intrigued. If I get the OK to post it, I will.

VDP also claimed at one point that Dennis Wilson beat up Charles Manson at a party.  I wonder if there was any truth to that or if VDP is just full of ____.

This is what an engineer who was at Sound Recorders April 1967 has to say about this much-vexed topic:

"I can say as much that there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to, and I was there."

Hmmm...

He said that in an article, but also said that he wasn't there and that that's just what he had heard.

Hmmm....I wonder if it is all possible, that someone on the inside made copies of the music and gave it to the Beatles early on. Would that be another way of telling the story? The Beatles heard the music, but not at Armen's studio....

We'll know next year.

Aaaargh! There ya go again! Titbits and cliffhangers!

Guy I contacted is writing his autobiography, which will be out next year.

Jeez, sometimes I'm so dumb, I think I should get an award for it.  ;D

It was supposed to have happened at Sound Recorders in April, right ?  Well, care to take a wild guess where the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session that Paul McCartney attended was held ?

Correct - Sound Recorders.  :thud

I'm guessing VDP is totally misremembering an event that did actually happen, but in nothing like the way he recalls. A Beatle did get to hear Smile music... but only because Brian invited him to the studio ! Nothing covert about it. As BB press officer, Taylor doubtless had a hand in Macca's invite, and given that Paul previewed "A Day In The Life" (or "She's Leaving Home", depending on who you're reading), Brian might well have been upset by hearing it.

Discuss.  ::)

according to the American Songwriter interview with Brian this year, Paul played She's Leaving Home for he and Marilyn on the piano.
"Didn’t Paul McCartney play you a song from Sgt. Pepper before it was released, asking for your opinion?
Yes. He played me and my wife a song called “She’s Leaving Home” one time in the studio before it came out. I was thrilled to death to hear it. He asked me if we liked it, and I told him we loved it. When I heard it on Sgt. Pepper, I loved it. I thought it was great."
http://www.americansongwriter.com/2009/01/brian-wilson-gods-messenger/

What a letdown. Just when it looked like maybe there was something sneaky going on, too....

Does this still rule out the prospect that Brian might well have played acetates to Macca during this visit? There would have been plenty of finished or well-in-progress material on acetate at this time, and we have Smile-era Party audio evidence that Brian was playing Smile acetates for folks bck then. The Humble Harv H&V demo shows that he wasn't shy about revealing his hand, and given his respect for Macca I'd've thought Brian would be eager to impress him.

Just a thought...

Here's some info on Paul's April visit by someone who was there: Mal Evans.  This is from a 2005 article about the "Mal Evans Diaries":

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article424674.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article424674.ece)

Here's the relevant part of the text:


I also have a couple of other accounts of that evening: Derek Taylor, John Phillips, etc.  I'll find those and post them.














...and...for a laugh... ;D
THE GREAT SMILE ROBBERY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9_oIHEL-4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9_oIHEL-4)


 
 

That is great!. Now do one where Mike makes Brian burn the tapes for f--king the formula.

;D That WOULD be a great one!

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

OK, Paul was in the studio where Smile tapes were being stored . . . an engineer there appears to know something about how Paul heard Smile tapes, but the story isn't quite what Van Dyke has been saying . . . immediately after the April visit, Paul starts work on Magical Mystery Tour.

so Paul stole Smile ideas for Magical Mystery Tour, not Sgt. Pepper!!!!  Van Dyke just had the wrong album! 

Small problem - VDP clearly states the Beatle(s) heard "the first eight-track"... and in April 1967, Sound Recorders wasn't an 8-track facility. Paul, or whomever, heard... nothing.

He didn't say that at all. What he said was "there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to".

Hadn't Parks left the SMiLE project the previous month anyway? So was he actually remembering, or reporting hearsay evidence?

The engineer didn't say they heard the eight track at Sound Recorders . . . "there's another way of telling the story" - i.e. place and dates could be different.  I doubt the engineer would bother to say there's another way of telling the story if the story was simply "it didn't happen."  Another way of telling the story could be that Paul heard some four track tapes.

And what IS the "FIRST" eight track?  Does Van Dyke know a specific tape he's referring to?  Maybe Paul heard the SECOND eight track.  I guess we're just going to have to wait until the guy's book comes out!

I love it when people grasp at straws to prop up an idee fixee of theirs that's crumbling at the edges.  ;D

Go back to my post of exactly what the engineer said - no, I'll save you the trouble:

"there is possibly another way of telling the story you are referring to, and I was there".  This guy worked at Sound Recorders, in fact he was, in essence, serving an apprenticeship there. Ergo, he wouldn't go anywhere else (and that anywhere would have to be Columbia).

Here's another problem - people are taking part of what Van Dyke said as gospel, but when it conflicts with what they're thinking, hey, suddenly he's got it wrong. Can't have your cake and eat it too - he's either reliable... or not. In light of what I and several others have deduced, in this instance - not.  My money is still on his misremembering the 4/10/67 "Vega Tables" vocal session. If you take what VDP says in Dom's book and stack it up against an established timeline and proven facts, it totally falls apart. He says before they started Pepper, The Beatles covertly heard a Smile 8-track at Sound Recorders and it influenced them. Wrong, wrong and wrong: Sound Recorders didn't have 8-track capability in spring 1967, Pepper started in January anyway and by April the vast majority of the recording for it was done.

So... someone please tell me - why are we still having this arguement ?  8)

Unless he's writing a book that he wants a lot of people to buy....

Gotta go with AGD on this one. Remember, we're not talking about if The Beatles ever heard SMiLE tapes. In fact, I'm sure that at some point later on they did. We're talking about if they heard them before work started on Sgt. Pepper. That's the whole basis of this conversation, isn't it? It's what Van Dyke is talking about-that SMiLE directly influenced Sgt. Pepper. And it's pretty clear that it didn't happen.  So, short of calling VDP a liar, I'd go with the idea that he's got events confused in his head.

OK, major "hold-up-hands-and-'fess-up" moment - Sound Recorders did have 8-track capability in early 1967, my engineer source informs me, so, it is possible that someone heard 'the first eight-track' there, as VDP claims... but there's still no way it could be before Pepper was begun.

My source has this to say: "Interesting information, your investigation seems right. Beatles listening in secret to Beach Boys seems unlikely. How can dear Van Dyke know? I can’t remember much of him during the Beach Boys sessions. Like I said, I have the other story."

So, technically, could have happened. Temporally - not.  ;D

To add a bit more confusion to the topic, let us not forget a Beatle with Beach Boys-contact during the SMiLE-Sessions: Brian Epstein.
In October, he once again travelled to the US to search for groups who would appear at the Saville Theatre he rented. And a deal was made for 'Sounds Incorporated' he managed as one of the support acts for a couple of BB gigs in England in November. He attended one of those BB concerts at the Finsbury Park on Nov. 6 and met the boys.
Epstein was hot in the business with all kind of contacts, he wasn't the guy who was happy to only hear about things, he had to see it, perhaps he was the spy ??! :lol

Just looked something relevant up...

The last recording session for Sgt Pepper was apparently held on April 3 (strings for Within Without You) - the day before Macca is said to have attended a Vega-Tables session.

I doubt very much he flew back to London and hurriedly got the rest of the gang back together to re-record any of the material in the light of what he might -  or might not -  have heard at Sound Recorders.

Does Dom hang out here? Can he shed any light (or darkness) on this? Maybe he's lurking....

Not that I know of, but he does have a show on luxuriamusic.com and often stops in to chat at the Heroes & Villains show there on Saturdays, too. Or did, when last I checked it out (a couple of months ago). They have chats; I'm sure you could check it out with him there.

Dates are wrong - the session Macca attended was April 10th (going over into early 11th).

Dom's not been on Luxuria for a while now. I'm in contact with him, but don't really want to restart anything, as we get along just fine these days. And anyway, fact is, VDP is mistaken in what he says, so no need to ask anyway.  :)

Again, I'd like to thank you guys for the sleuthing done on this thread.  I have found it very informative and I appreciate the pragmatic, clear-eyed point of view.