The Smiley Smile Message Board

Surprisingly, I have been thinking about Smile lately.

And lately I have been studying Brian's inventive production tricks used in the Smile and Smiley Smile era.  It seems to me that in BWPS pretty much repeats verbatim the available unfinished  Smile recordings that are floating around, the box set releases in particular.  This has only extended the idea that these recordings are the way the songs were meant to be in 1967.  But I think what is missing is Brian's production tricks.

Look at the material from the Smile and Smiley Smile era that was actually released or finished but not released.  Nearly every track has some very unique and experimental production tricks.  All the bootlegs and official releases post-67' are missing this final touch.  Decades later when BWPS was made, these production tricks were ignored, save for what was already on tape (for instance the tape feed back in I'm In Great Shape).

It is telling that nearly EVERYTHING Brian actually mixed in this era is full of these special studio effects and tricks.  It is a consistent tool, not just a once-in-awhile gimick.  Many times these tricks and effects were used for transitions between to sections of music.  Lots of creative work happened at the mix stage, which we never see on all these unmixed songs.

Good Vibrations--the ultimate studio production ever (in my opinion) ends with some very creative editing and dynamic shifts not present on the session tapes alone.

Heroes and Villains Cantina version (the only Smile era mix we have) is full of studio effects.  Abrupt edits, sound effects, a random voice shouting "your under arrest", the big tape feedback build up before the fade etc.

Vegetables (the April version from box set) is not a finished Brian mix, but was cobbled together for the box set.  However, listening to text mixes of the song Brian did one can hear him experimenting with a big reverb wash at the end of each verse section.

Heroes and Villains (45 single version) has lots of abrupt edits and changes in dynamics that were very much Brian's style at the time.

Smiley Smile the LP is a treasure trove of Brian's bag of studio tricks.

Vegetables has narrative sound effects like water pouring, chomping, a guy saying "oh yeah" as he enjoys a carrot or something.
Fall Breaks also has lots of sound effects and odd percussion.
She's Going Bald has a rising pitch tape speed trick as well as many abrupt section changes.
Little Pad has sawing sound effects and lots of little diced up sections.
Wind Chimes has a big anti-melodic noise made from the sound of the tape being rewound, and also uses slowed tape speed to make the low "ting-a-ling" voices.
Getting Hungry has many abrupt edits and also uses tape speed effects on the last deep "getting huuungry" voice.
Wonderful features some odd dissonant sound effects as well as party noise on the break.

And moving into later recordings with a Smile spirit:
Diamond Head and Cool Cool Water have water sound effects.  Diamond Head has a thunder sound effect made by hitting or shaking a spring reverb unit.

I believe Smile would have actually had more of these studio effects than Smiley Smile etc, being that Smile was being made in state of the art studios with more gear options. 

I want to put forth the idea that all those other tracks on the box set would have had similar tricks, as would Surf's Up, Child is Father, Look, Holidays, Great Shape etc.  Adding historical re-creations of these effects to the box set tracks etc would get us closer to the true spirit of the 1967 Smile.  The Box set versions of Worms, Wonderful, Windchimes, even the 69' version of Cabinessence, maybe even the 71' Surf's Up are not telling the whole story of what these tracks would have sounded like.

While it was everyone's intention to replicate the existing SMiLE sessions on BWPS, there were still additional attempts to include "production tricks" in the manner described in the above post. Nicky's pirate rap ("On A Holiday") is certainly an odd unpredictable inclusion as are the bizarre treated backing vocals on "In Blue Hawaii" (similar to "I Wanna Be Around"). The crossfade from "On A Holiday" to "Wind Chimes" is a production trick that Brian wouldn't have done in '66/'67.

Sort of related: I wish that for CIFOTM on BWPS they included the wave of high harmonies in the chorus that cascade over the "chi-chi-child" bits. Oh, and that booming bass sound high in the mix. BWPS is tame compared to lots of the original.

I've always felt that BWPS was a little bit too 'clean', if you will. Not that the 66/67 stuff was 'dirty', but there's just something about that distinct sound that you got from that old equipment, even though I know on BWPS they used the same kinds of mics that they did back in the day.

You know how the Ronettes and other groups re-recorded their old hits? That's kinda how I feel about BWPS. Or, it's kinda like... imagine if Smile was released in 67, and then in 2004 after the same merda happened Brian chose (or was made to) perform Smile live on tour like he did Pet Sounds. If Pet Sounds was re-recorded it would sound how BWPS does - good, but nothing on the original.

Exactly! BWPS always reminds me of one of those GREATEST HITS OF THE 60's compilation albums, with all of these great songs "performed by the original artist". The melodies, arrangements, and even the lead singers are the same, but the songs sounds completely different, losing all of the original "feel", because it's a re-recording. Usually the artists cash in on those albums because their career is fading or has faded; they can't make it anymore recording new material, so, they sell their soul for the money. Sad.

I've wondered whether BWPS was actually an attempt to generate more $$$ since Brian has always maintained that the wife and the managers told him it was time to do it. Don't seem too far fetched, does it?

I mean, I have nothing against him earning what he deserves for it but sometimes it seems that it was more of a marketing thing than a purely artistic "I have an ardent desire to complete my incomplete masterpiece".

That being said, I agree with you about the "feel" but it would be a mistake to lump BWPS in with a lot of shoddy BEST OF albums.

You're preaching to the choir, brother. Hey, where have you been the last couple of years?

Seriously, this has been discussed in numerous threads and I've repeated my opinion(s) several times, but, it's still a controversial topic, and I always appreciate reading other opinions, especially when they coincide with mine. :police:

So, Sofonanm, here goes - again. I had no problem when Melinda, David Leaf, and other associates of Brian thought it was a good idea to perform some version of SMiLE live. In fact, I welcomed it. Yeah, it was done to save a fading solo career which actually never took off, but, it's one thing to say, "Here are some songs that I think you'll like to hear performed live" and another thing to re-record those songs and say "we finished it/them." Especially when we're talking about the SMiLE songs. This ain't no "Meant For You" or "Keep An Eye On Summer". This is SMiLE, arguably the greatest popular music ever recorded. That's where I draw the line.

If they just would've left it a live performance piece, even releasing it as a live CD/DVD.... But, no, somebody (I wonder who?) saw $$$$$$$, took the EXACT SAME LIVE PRESENTATION, NOTE FOR NOTE, re-recorded the songs (not nearly as good as the orignals), and proclaims SMiLE as finished. Disgusting and revolting. All for money, to resurrect a career, for publicity. I don't buy for a minute it was to exorcise demons; Brian didn't care enough for that. He stopped caring a long time ago.

While I think it naiive to say the $ played no part, I also think it a little cynical to suggest it was the only factor...the response to the project by Brian and band does seem genuine.

If Brian no longer cared why does he continually veto a box set??

Agreed but you have to admit most of us were begging for it!

Trouble is, Brian, we still are!

I have absolutely no doubt that Brian's band was into it. They're fans, brilliant musicians, of course they loved playing those songs. But, from the beginning, I've questioned the amount/percentage of Brian's participation in the project, compared to everybody else, especially Darian. And Beautiful Dreamer did nothing to change that opinion.

While $$$$$$ might not have been the only factor, without being too radical, I would put it at over 95%. Keep in mind I'm talking about re-recording the songs into BWPS, not just the live performance. The live performance I would put at 90%, but that's OK, like I said, I had no problem with performing your back catalogue in concert, any part of it.

I didn't know Brian WAS vetoing a boxed set of the SMiLE sessions. I never knew the project was presented to him. Was it? But, I wasn't surprised that a boxed set didn't come out in the ensuing 4-5 years after BWPS. It would've exposed BWPS for what it is.

What's your take on BWPS's running order? As in, who sequenced it and for what exact purpose, etc.

Oh blah, blah, blah.

They did it for the money? Please. If money was the only factor, Smile would have been released decades ago.

BWPS as some sort of fakery? Most of the original tracks have been released. And let's face it -- are the original Fire, CIFTTM, Holiday and Look really so awesome as to make the people who liked BWPS slap their foreheads and gasp: "We've been sold a lie"?

I think BWPS is Darian's vision or his fanmix - for a live performance. And that is important , it was put together for a live performance. I think Darian put it together and ran it by Brian, who probably, IMO, responded "Sounds good", or "that's great", or "No, don't use that".

Basically, I like a lot of the sequence. Seriously, much of it flows nicely. However, I have two basic objections, First, I would've flip-flopped the second and third movements. No way would I end with "Good Vibrations", instead I would've closed with "Surf's Up". But, I know why he/they chose "Good Vibrations"; because, in a live performance, "Good Vibrations" is a climax song; you almost couldn't top it, it would've been hard to follow it.

Second, in linking all of the tracks together, they sacrificed all of Brian's great fades. That was part of his genius, especially with the SMiLE songs. By "choosing" to go with links and movements, you basically compromised some great parts. I don't think Brian would've ever done that in 1966-67. Do you? And, again, that was another revolting part of turning the live performance of BWPS into "the finished SMiLE". Finished? They hatcheted it. 

Yes.

And, Brian wasn't married to Melinda decades ago.

I love it. And it's better than I could do.  ;)

I love that wave of high harmonies...I would love it even more if we got an official version released instead of Love Songs of the Summer or whatever in Sam Hell's name we are getting this year.

Also, there is the instrumental version of CITFOTM that indicates that there would've been two verses. Sigh.

Right! I mean, the fact that any official version came out at all is amazing-and I sat there at the BWPS concert with tears in my eyes during 'Surf's Up', because it was beautiful. Still, that doesn't change the fact that when I listen to SMiLE, I listen to the 'non-official' versions that I picked up here and there  ;)

That crossfade rules.

Part of me feels that much of the "new' stuff on BWPS was part of Brian's original ideas. After all, we treat him as some sort of Rock genius one second and then a washed up - has been another. Who knows. It's just that much the new lyrics and ideas work too smoothly.

Gosh, because Sheriff John Stone found some more people who agree with his idiotic "BWPS Is a FRAUD" viewpoint, I'm going to throw out my 2 CD copies, my vinyl and my DVD!!!! I can't believe I was bamboozled by Brian, Van Dyke, Darian, and that EVIL Melinda!!!!! ::)

I'm not quite as cynical as you, Sheriff, but you make a lot of good points that I agree with. 

I guess my main problem is that BWPS is treated as a completed version of Smile when it is essentially a live performance translated into a studio recording.  The sequence was done with the intent to perform it live, not to "finish" the album.  I do like the sequence quite a bit in parts, but the two points you raised about ending with "Good Vibrations" and the (in my opinion, tragic) loss of Brian's brilliant fades took the words right out of my mouth.

I realize that even Brian probably couldn't articulate his initial "vision" for Smile if you asked him, but I don't think BWPS captures very much of it.  The recording is, as others have mentioned, very "clean," whereas the original tracks are full of vibrant innovation.  I find it difficult to put into words, but I'm sure you all know what I mean.  There was a dark and "weird" quality in the original sessions that disappeared on BWPS. 

The loss of fades really bothers me too Sheriff...Brian was master of the fade, and he devised some brilliant ones for Smile.  Even if some of them were used on BWPS, they lose their effect when they cross-fade immediately into another song.  Even the ones that end the movements ("Cabinessence," "Surf's Up," and "Good Vibrations") don't have their intended effect.  I know it's just personal preference, but those tags just don't work when they end cold.

And of course, ending with "Good Vibrations" was, as you pointed out Sheriff, a move for live performance.  I can't imagine Brian would have ended Smile with it...the fade to "Surf's Up" or a reprise of "Prayer" would have been absolutely perfect.  I really wouldn't have had a problem leaving "GV" off the album at all, actually.  I just don't think it fits anywhere.  In '66-'67 I think it would have opened side 2, but obviously in 2004 that effect is totally lost.  I actually somewhat enjoy the BWPS version, I just don't like it for BWPS, if that makes any sense. 

haha, i don't think it's a fraud, i just don't think it holds up to the 66/67 tapes. i also don't see it as unlikely that the album was used, as Sheriff said, to boost a poor solo career. what could do that better than unearthing a legendary lost album and "finishing" it?

it's the little things about it that don't move me as strongly as the originals. take the piano/bass segment of Child - in the old tapes the bass booms out with a really ominous feel, on BWPS it's just a little thud in the background. it doesn't carry the same emotion at all. i also miss dearly the extra banjo (was it a banjo?) at the end of Cabinessence... it feels naked without it, ESPECIALLY live when the one guy is playing the banjo part and the slide guitar part can't be performed either at the same time.

it's all those little things that hot me hooked on the smile tapes in the first place.

So  basically you guys dont' like it because it's not the SMiLE that you wanted.

To me, SMiLE IS finished. I've said this time and time again. If Van had not been brought in to add the additonal lyrics, I might have more sympathy for the dissenting views (and would probably agree with those views too). But bringing Van in changed everything in the process.


I also never got the "original recordings were more dark and that's something the new tracks lack" opinion. Weren't the new tracks dissed for being too close to the original arrangements? I never, ever got those lines of thinking.


Whether or not he did the grunt work (and that is a fair subject to debate), this is the version that Brian and VDP approved. And the one that stands to me.

Sure they approved it, but the point of view I take is that there is no way that a 24-year-old Brian Wilson would have approved it.  His solo career makes it quite clear that the standards of 62-year-old Brian are significantly lower than those of the guy who created Pet Sounds and Smile.  So I don't put much stock in the fact that he approved BWPS when so much of his original vision was lost.

Chris, I respect your opinion(s) and I enjoy your posts, but I don't think I'm being cynical.

I honestly believe that in 2003, Melinda, along with David Leaf and other Brian Wilson "associates" sat down and planned Brian's next career move. And I believe it became a process of elimination.

How about something like this? "Let's see, what do we do next? We need something new to play live. Nobody wants to hear Brian's solo stuff; I Just Wasn't Made For These Times and Imagination proved that. Then we went the live route. Live At The Roxy covered a lot of Brian's best songs, but if we continue playing Beach Boys' hits, we're no different than Mike Love. We just finished Pet Sounds Live, so what's left? Well, there's still a lot of interest in SMiLE; maybe we can put something together. You can't lose with songs like "Surf's Up", "Cabinessence", "Heroes And Villains", "Vegetables", "Our Prayer", and "Good Vibrations". People will eat that stuff up, and think of all the publicity we'll get."

And there's nothing wrong with that. As I said, it's only a live performance. Although, there was probably more financial merit than artistic merit behind the motivation to do it.

Now, how about this? The next brainstorming meeting. "Hey, look at Brian's album sales; pretty disappointing. He's now been a solo artist for 15 years and it's been disappointing to say the least. BW 88, Imagination, Getting In Over My Head - not exactly successes. We don't even have a record contract! Look, we got a lot of positive reviews with the SMiLE presentation, why don't we keep it goin' and just record the songs and release it as an album. Think of all the publicity it'll get - Brian Wilson finishes SMiLE. We can't lose. It's bound to sell, maybe we'll get some record companies interested in Brian again, maybe get a new recording contract. Hey, we have these SMiLE songs just sitting there; they're his best stuff. Let's take advantage of them, let's get something out of them. It's all we have left; we've already covered most of Brian's back catalogue."

Now, should I include in those meetings/conversations - "Let's approach this project as a work of art; Brian's still a genius; he's just bored; he can really sink his teeth into a project like this. Brian has a lot to add to these new sessions, a lot of ideas. He's been waiting 37 years to finish this project. And, besides, it'll be good for him; he can finally put some demons to rest. And, he'll be happy for the attention. He'll have plenty to keep him busy - interviews, traveling, rehearsals, and concerts."

No, I won't include that.

Somewhere I feel that SMiLE went from an expression of Brian's art (1966-67) to a way to cash in.

But you just did.

It's not that they were "dark" (although that piano and ominous bass part in Child is dark) but there was an unmistakable element in those old recordings that has not been captured on the new recordings. The first time I heard the Bicycle Rider feel on a bootleg, as it burst in after "Rock, rock, roll..." I thought it was mystical, the way it seemed to burst out. Compare that to the same part on BWPS.

The drugs were taken out of Smile for BWPS.  :-\

I think "mystical" is a great word to describe it...I remember feeling the exact same thing the first time I heard Bicycle Rider in "Worms."  It was like nothing I had ever heard before, like hearing music from another world.  And it had a menacing quality to it that fit with the message of the song.

On BWPS the same part sounds dull and lifeless...not to stir up this debate again, but I think the fake harpsichord had a lot to do with it.  Even in other cases though, where the same instruments were used, something is missing on that was there on the original sessions (I'm thinking of the piano/bass section in "Child").  Call it dark, call it mystical, whatever...but if you do an A/B comparison, I would think that most anybody could hear what we're all talking about.

It's cool how some people here seemingly know Brian well enough to call BWPS a cash grab and to know for absolute certain that it was done solely in the name of money. I did not know that so many of you were that close with Brian, his family, and the people who manage his career. What else can you tell us?

Really. We're really talking about the sampled harpsichord again.

(Hits head on table.)

It's an important point of discussion!  :-D

Does it cost a lot to rent a harpsichord or something?

I do recall reading something about Darian saying nobody thought it was that big a deal--that the sound was just as good. I happen to agree with him. While I prefer natural instruments, it's no big deal to me.

The biggest mystery to me in the whole 40+ years of Smile lore is... how do people not like "She's Goin' Bald"? I just bring that up because that song has a great example of one of Brian's production tricks, but in this case it's one that most people don't like. Personally, I think that song is a classic. There's that chilled out bohemian beat poet vibe to the first part, the crazy pitch shifting vocals, a great goofy take on old radio dramas, followed by some r 'n' b inspired riffing with weird lyrics with a double meaning ("it's too late mama, ain't nothin' upside your head!"). It's everything the humor aspect of Smile was supposed to be. Actually, I just don't get how people hate anything on Smiley Smile. They must have defective ears. Go to the Smithsonian and borrow Brian Wilson's good ear after Bob Dylan is done using it.

I didn't intend to belittle BWPS.  It is full of wonderful revelations, some restored vintage lyrics and a full collection in one place on one disc.  It was one of the great thrills of my life (no joke) when I brought it home and put it in my CD player (alas, I didn't get to see the live show). And maybe most importantly, Brian Wilson got the world wide acclaim he had coming to him for this material, bringing Smile up to its rightful place with Pet Sounds as a recognized masterwork.  My aim with this topic was to point out that what BWPS is is not what Smile 1967 would have been.  I don't know exactly what it would have been, but we have plenty of circumstantial evidence.  For most people BWPS is good enough.  That's just fine, it is a great listen.  If you are sick of the debate, that's just fine. Don't read posts that have "Smile" in the subject line and your problem is solved.  I look at BWPS as a great tool for further understanding of the lost masterpiece.  But we can't let our protectiveness of BW get in the way of historical research.  BWPS is a gift from god, but Smile would have been much different.  And one of the things that would have been different are these production tricks.  There would have been all kinds of them.  If anyone has access to audio editing software and wants to get a fuzzy glimpse of what 67' Smile would have been, load in the tracks from the box set.  Leave H&V Cantina version as is.  Take the rest of the tracks and give them a little touch of the BW magic.  Maybe a feed back echo leading part 1 of Wind Chimes into part 2.  Maybe add a wind storm sound effect underneath Wind Chimes part 2.  Maybe the song stops dead in its tracks before the big multi-piano fade and you drop in the load noise from Smiley Smile Wind Chimes.  Most, if not all of the seems of these modular sections would have had something special happening.

Yeah, I've tried doing stuff like that, although I lost my mixes (I think, anyway). For example, I slowed down the "bop bop bop bop, doo-doo-doot doo-doo-doot" part of "Vegetables" so that the voices sound like weird trumpets. I also cut "Vegetables" down to a little over 2 minutes and started it with the laughing verse (it's on one of the bootlegs, it just has the group laughing with no lyrics, followed by someone shouting "oh no!" at the end), and I also put a little bit of the famous vegetable argument before it. I put some edited bits of "George Fell Into His French Horn" before "Surf's Up". I use the version of "Wind Chimes" with the weird count in before the horns part in the middle.  One time I tried adding the sound of waves to the background of the "Water Chant". There were some dirty jokes Brian did that I put in front of "Roll Plymouth Rock".

It sounded like at the time the big idea was to add lots of sound effects to the songs. Someone from Brian's circle at the time said that Brian and Van had decided that at some point. There are takes of "Do A Lot" with the sounds of running sinks and brushing teeth, talk of the "Wind Chimes" outro with Brian's idea of the sound of wind chimes overdubbed, and other stuff like that. We know about the animal sounds on "Barnyard". An article from '66 or '67 talks about Brian putting the "Swedish Frog" together with some kind of musical backing, praising the results ("How does he do it?", I think it somebody was quoted in the article as asking). The beginning of "Vegetables" and "Fire (intro)" have some very hippie instrumental jams played over the top. There was going to be yodeling on "Wonderful", and there's that weird "doing, doing, DO-ING!" vocal on "Cabinessence". How about "Workshop"? Plus, the Native American vocal imitations on the "Bicycle Rider" chorus, and that wonderful slide guitar overdub on "Roll Plymouth Rock". And we have the cantina take of "H &V".

Which all brings to mind one of the biggest problem of BWPS, where I think is where the biggest complaints come from: it doesn't take many risks. Smile was almost two albums. You had the ornately arranged open-minded structures of the songs juxtaposed with a bunch of psychedelic tomfoolery (let us not forget the vegetable arguments, the dirty jokes, "George Fell Into...", or how Brian wanted to record a bar fight for "H & V") and jamming. Somehow, Brian made it all seem natural at the time. However, the people who recorded BWPS were not hippies or free spirits or whatever and could never recreate the drug-inspired spontaneity that led to things like the whistles on the "Fire (intro)" or "Swedish Frog". At best, they could copy note for note what was done before, or deciding that some of it was distasteful or goofy or not melodic enough and not even doing it all. But that wasn't the point of Smile. They just didn't get that part, really. Or maybe they were too scared to do it because of the immense legend built up around Smile. Brian probably just didn't care all that much about that by '04, he just wanted to make (probably, I'm conjecturing here) a "good enough" Smile that would finally make people stop bugging him. Like the bass on "Child is Father..." that some people have already brought up. On Smile, that bass wants to boom and send its echoes across the universe. On BWPS, it is content to just play along with the chords.

Look at the pictures taken for Smile, or the cover art. Someone at the time said that Brian wanted them to look silly or amateurish. It was the point. Smile was going to have warts. It was going to have odd transitions, random jokes, off the wall sound effects, and whatever have you. It wasn't going to try to flow perfectly like BWPS was. Brian wanted you to go "WTF?!?!" at moments. That's what Smile was about. The innocence of laughter. Brian used to like make Van sing backing vocals when he played Smile songs on piano for people. Van was self-conscious about his voice at the time, or at least self-conscious around a great singer like Brian, and wouldn't want to do it. But Brian would bug him in front of everybody until he'd do it, and then Van would sing, but so low you could barely hear him, his face turning red. Everybody thought it was funny, with all that pot smoke wafting in the air. Those were the exact kind of moments Brian wanted on Smile.

Great points!!

Yep. You nailed it.

Dada, as always, wonderfully put.  I have been working on a mix lately that is heavily informed by Zappa's We're Only In It For The Money.  Someone on this board made the suggesting that this Zappa record (and Lumpy Gravy) are good hints as to what Smile would have really sounded like.  The suggestion was a great one, and it has really changed how I see the Smile project.  Granted, Brian wouldn't have been quite so wild, zanny, anti-hippie (or what have you) as Zappa was, but the tape editing and free-for-all feel make sense in a Smile context.  Plus, a lot of We're Only In It For The Money kind of has a (very stoned) version of the Beach Boys Party! in studio party vibe.  And hearing a lot of the extra stuff from the Pet Sounds sessions makes me think that Brian was heading towards what would be Smile as far back as late 65' and early 66'.  As Dada mentioned, there is the recordings of the Honeys telling dirty jokes.  There is the radio-show like feel of the radio promo spots for Caroline No.  And of course there is the large amount of field recordings, skits, chants, and party sounds recorded during the Smile sessions.  Couple this with Brian's official releases during the era and you start getting into that Zappa territory.  What I find fun and challenging is making the translation between the Zappa guide model and what Brian would have done.  His wild collage trip would have been more innocent, happy, spiritual, and goofy.  But I must say, since I put together my Zappa guided Smile mix, there is no turning back.  It just feels right.  It is as close as we can get to transporting back in time like the dude in the novel Glimpses did.

(by the way, I have heard a fan mix floating around out there of H&V that seems to be edited to sound like the H&V envisioned in the book Glimpses.  Someone must have put it together.) 

oh, and the other big question I have yet to grapple with is whether to put my whole Smile mix into mono.  Haven't done it yet because the stereo sounds good.  My gut feeling is that Smile would have been mono, which feels weird to me because the music is so expansive, but there is good evidence it might have been.  Was Smiley Smile originally mixed in mono?  I guess this would be a great topic for a new post.

Smile definitely would've been released in mono.  Smiley Smile and Wild Honey were both released that way.

Jesus Christ.

I think I read this very same debate almost five years ago.  Way to move on with your lives!

 :lol

There have only been about 25-30 posts in the history of the internet (and 22 of them were porn). It's all just recycling.

And over half of them concerned, SMiLE.


BWPS finished product, far's I'm concerned.

And every single day the sun rises and sets.

You're living the big womb of repeating actions and repeating thoughts. Get used to it and join the insanity.

We all did, really. That's why all our precious copies of BWPS are covered with dust.  :-D

f*** that. I play mine on occasion. It's good. Ditto for the Beach Boys Smile session material. Moving on would be admitting that the world didn't stop with the bands of the 60s and 70s, and that most of us would do well to talk less about those and find new ones.

Well, at least they got your money!  :p

Seriously, there's a lot of good stuff on there, even if it doesn't have that same ambiance as the '66/'67 tapes, or the same running order that might have been, or even the same musicians and vocalists.  It was nearly 40 years later folks, things were bound to sound different.  And they didn't take a year to lay it down.  The whole process was different.  Just accept it for what it is.

This is almost as annoying as those "Pet Sounds was never meant to be in stereo" arguments!

Got any links to threads with that discussion going on? I'd love to read them.  >:D

I love those kind of arguments.

What is your aim, to end all debate about Smile?  Don't you have better things to do then tell people you aren't interesting in certain subjects.  What where you hoping to achieve, maybe make a few people fell shallow?  Good work, you are officially cooler than me.  There you go, you won!  I'm a Smile nerd and proud of it.  Some of us still obsessed with the topic, others are new comers and want to learn about the legend.  Why else would I be reading a message board called "Smiley Smile"?!  There's like 20 people in the whole world that still obsess over Smile post-BWPS, and most of them are right here on this board.  Don't debate Smile?  If not here, then where?

P.S.
There is no moving on from Smile.  BW will one day be seen as one of the key composers of the 20th (and 21st) century.  Many consider Smile and Pet Sounds his most important work.  It is sights like this one where the next generation of story tellers and chroniclers cut their teeth.  Without them who will keep the BW legend alive and well 50, 100, 200 years from now?  It is these same nerds on whose parade you rain on.

No, because a 24-year-old Brian Wilson wouldn't have approved anything.  If you're asking "What Would Brian Do?", we know the answer -- What Brian Would Do is pop too many pills, freak out, hijack a busload of penguins, decide to burn the tapes, and run in the opposite direction from the entire project for the next few decades.

In order to even have this discussion, you have to invent a sort of Fantasy Brian, who says far more about the guy having the fantasy than it does about the actual Brian Wilson.  Some peoples' Fantasy Brian is far more like Frank Zappa, who went to the edge and back over and over again, than the actual Brian, who went to the edge and fell off it.  But my Fantasy Brian is way more like the guy who did "Pet Sounds", who used a few bits of trickery but focused far more on the musical part of musical experimentation.

And more basically, I prefer the real Brian, who finally finished the damn thing and faced it.  With help and encouragement and other peoples' contributions, yes, but he still did it.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

I am a SMiLE nerd...and I have a beautiful girlfriend. She accepts my obssesion with the SMiLE and the SS board. Chicks love SMiLE nerds. Better discussions on this than on his marriage. IMO.

 Anyone notice the trombone line during H&V is not as driven on BWPS as the original...just a little production thing a ma jig.

I know what you're saying and I don't think anyone here would say they prefer the sound of BWPS to the original sessions (Peak-Brian production, the classic Beach Boys blend, etc.), but I have to disagree that the drugs were taken out of BWPS.

My first experience of Smile was hearing it at the 2nd RFH show and what blew my mind in quite a profound way was the 'drugginess' of these songs that I'd never heard. Hearing the slow verses of Child for the first time all I could think was that you could practically see the LSD dripping out of Brian's keyboard. I had an 'Aha' moment when I suddenly appreciated the sheer gravity of Smile and why it meant so much to so many people. It's music that sounds like it's on the edge - achingly beautiful but in a sort of queasy unsettled way. It's a perfect snapshot of Brian's mental state at the time. Of course I knew the backstroy so this probably coloured my judgement more than a little, but the drugginess and the craziness of the music was entirely authentic.

And so my point is, BWPS doesn't rinse all the pot and acid out of the music. A lot of it is still there in Brian's compositions. What is added imo is the tragic counterpoint of on-the-precipice-67 Brian, and the wreckage that is left of BW in 04. It's like a before and after, and therefor what you have in BWPS is the entire history of the Smile saga.

As an afterthought, I love this debate - it has been raging on this board for five years, and Sheriff John is always at the centre whipping up a storm with his fakery theories. Personally as I've always argued, I don't understand why we can't have both and enjoy them for what they are. The sessions in all their authentic glory, and BWPS as a chance to hear a cohesive flowing version of Smile that the original authors regard as the finished composition. Of course BWPS doesn't sound as good as the originals - go back and listen to the sessions instead! Don't like the incompleteness of the original fragments? Dig BWPS out. Everyone's a winner!

In many ways, BWPS is one giant risk.....

True Story.

I prefer the Do You Dig Worms title myself, it works as a joke then.

I think it's a shame that they didn't release Brian Wilson Presents Smile LIVE!!  (two exclamation points, just like summer days!!) 
Instead of trying to recreate the past, they would have been breaking new ground, with a record that might well be seen as one of, if not the, greatest live album of all time, not to mention that the live shows just sounded better.  Granted, with BWPS as is, we get both, but we also lose something.  The legend is half the point.  I love the smile music, but if you think smile is just about the music, i think you're kidding yourself :-) 

When he reviewed it, Robert Christgau echoed Noname that BWPS was one giant risk: "This sounded like a terrible idea.  Instead, it's a triumph."

Which apparently the 300,000+ who bought the thing presumably thought too.  (I bought at least 5 to give as presents to those I thought needed to hear it, plus a vinyl copy to get the stack-o-tracks on side 4).

But what do they know.

I understand the RFH shows were recorded but were too ragged to release.  So was the NPR live version (I heard it, then decided not to download it). The best recorded live version is probably the one on the DVD.  By that point the band could do the piece in their sleep.

I don't know. i think I'm in the minority of fans who has no urge to hear recordings of Brian do stuff live. I just don't think he's that great enough a live performer now to justify live releases (just my opinion of course). I'd hate it if all we had was live version of BWPS over the studio recording. I find the live DVD of Smile hard to watch as all Brian's frantic smiling seems so forced. I'd rther see him mumbling and uncomfortable on stage than the airbrushed grinning BW we get in the live dvd.

Right on Grange! If there's anything that deserves the OC treatment, it's the original Smile sessions! ;)

How do you know what 300,000 who bought the album presumably thought? While it is not the only indication, what were the sales figures for Brian's two follow-up albums, What I Really Want For Christmas and That Lucky Old Sun? And, were record companies standing in line to sign Brian after BWPS?

Getting back to BJL's point about releasing BWPS as a live album, that's what I always hoped for. That way BWPS (the album) wouldn't have to stand as the only released document of all the SMiLE songs together. As a matter of fact, I still wish they'd release a live version, using the Beautiful Dreamer concert; it can't get much better than that. What I'd really like to see is a double CD, the first Disc being some opening hits including "California Girls", "Darlin", "Surfer Girl", etc. AND the  complete Pet Sounds Live (another version other than the released one). Disc 2 would be BWPS with some closing encores like ""Help Me Rhonda", ""I Get Around", "Fun Fun Fun", and closing with "Love And Mercy". It would be the greatest live CD ever released!

What Brian REALLY needs to do is perform Smiley Smile live. Now that'd be a concert. For "Vegetables" it could be just him and his bass, and the rest of the band chewin' on veg and drinkin' water.

Ok, that's never gon' happen. You know what would be better, performing Friends live. The whole album. But the setting would have to be different. Not that big band sound they have. They should all be sitting, yeah sitting. With straw hats and corn cob pipes. Overalls and boots. In a field, with some cows near.

Whoa, take it easy there!  Don't go all Barney Fife on me!  I didn't criticize you for starting this thread (although if you want to get technical, your wording of "things overlooked" in the heading does imply that you believe clumsiness or apathy was involved in the recording of BWPS).  But I digress.  Maybe I just read that into your words.

I agree, there is no moving on from SMiLE...or BWPS, which is part of the SMiLE story.  What I don't agree with is this idea that one must be inferior to the other in order to reach some sort of conclusion.  And it seems like these debates always sink into that territory.  I like what Buddhahat posted: "Everyone's a winner!"

My earlier statement is my response to some of the points brought up on pages 1 and 2.  People can agree or disagree with my response and apparently you disagreed as evidenced by the first part of the above quote (which had me rolling on the ground, BTW!)  And FWIW, I fully agree with your P.S.



 

....except for the raining on the nerds part.


Thought I'd clear that up.

I am a BW fan who thoroughly appreciates the courage on his part and the talent and dedication of all the principals involved in the production of BWPS. I am extremely thankful
that it exists, was assembled, old & new lyrics restored, written & sung (especially in Roll Plymouth Rock/Do You Like Worms, Barnyard, Song For Children/Look, CIFOTM, Holidays ((Do You Like Worms lyrical reprise-excellent! Originally intended?)), I'm in Great Shape, In Blue
Hawaii/Love to Say Dada), the beautiful backing vocals and string arrangement in "Surf's Up", etc., and the unprecedented-in-pop-music closure of unfinished business that it represents.

I agree with those here who refuse to polarize the issue and compare the original recordings
and the new version with the intent of gratuitously exalting one over the other. They both have their place and occupy different roles.

That said, it seems obvious that, even if BWPS is the final iteration of the album and no sessions set is ever issued (heaven forbid), there are intangible aesthetic elements that the
original music possesses that were not possible to replicate, for whatever reason, in the
making of BWPS. These intangibles (a "dark", mysterious, spine-tingling quality that
is unique unto the original material, Brian's palpable passion and fantastic, youthfully delicate
vocals ((& the other band members irreplaceable family vocal blend))etc.), in and of themselves, make said material worth every iota of devotion and, yes, nerd-like obsession lavished on it, and not resting until everything left in existence is released in some form.

I reiterate that I love BWPS, am VERY thankful and appreciative for its existence (and the unforgettable privilege of seeing it performed live) and the unique qualities that IT possesses,
which are many.

Let both SMiLEs be sent out into the universe and return to us, to paraphrase the old native
American saying (and let a sessions box, with unheard material, be released someday).

Thank you Brian (& others) for SMiLE! :) :) :) :)

Brian Wilson Presents Smile is NOT Smile. It's a live performance of unfinished Smile music with some new additions. Smile was, is, and always will be the albatross in the BEACH BOYS' story.

It was indeed one thing when we all heard about "The Master Plan" for Smile, which was regurgitated in so many Brian interviews that we, like the world in general, eventually thought "yeah right" and went on with our lives. Then we hear that there would be a series of live shows of what was called "Smile" and dates were set. We freaked out like little children when we heard that, and some of us were privileged enough to see the early tracklist that leaked out in 2003.

The first performance went off like a hoot, as the bootleg which came out literally a few hours later showed all who couldn't be there. Now, it's one thing to have a performance of Smile music in a live context. And that's how Brian Wilson Presents Smile should have remained. A LIVE PERFORMANCE. Going into the studio to do what amounted to a basic carbon copy of the live gigs, with the same sampled keyboards, overall dry (read: no WARMTH) sound, and shouting by Brian, might have proven nice to those who couldn't see a show or couldn't find bootlegs, but over time has proven to be distasteful, disrespectful of the Smile music and mystique, and disrespectful of Brian himself (that is, if the eight or nine million Brianistas out there still need more convincing as to how he's not in the driver's seat of his career). Not to mention disrespectful to the Beach Boys, for whom this music was intended.

Time will eventually show, when a Beach Boys Smile sessions package is finally released (not IF, and if you believe otherwise spare us all the bullmerda and agonizing torture of "RESPECT BRIAN'S WISHES BECAUSE BRIAN DOESN'T WANT THEM OUT!!!!" - "Brian doesn't want them out" my ass; he's just as money-minded as anyone else in the Beach Boys - it's all good timin' :) ) and the public at large can hear Brian's amazing original recordings AS THEY WERE INTENDED TO SOUND BY BRIAN before the sessions came to their demise, that the studio BWPS is a forgery of the Smile music - dishonest, tasteless, insulting, and, above all, degrading to the Beach Boys and Brian legacy, not to mention THE FANS.

Quote from the Sheriff:
How do you know what 300,000 who bought the album presumably thought? While it is not the only indication, what were the sales figures for Brian's two follow-up albums, What I Really Want For Christmas and That Lucky Old Sun? And, were record companies standing in line to sign Brian after BWPS?

Reply: About the 300,000?  Easy.  I am large.  I contain multitudes.  300K worth if you must know.  All of whom played it a few times then put it in the mp3 playlist mix, along with Pepper, Led Zep II, Guns 'n' Roses, Feist, and T.I., like everyone else does now.  They "tweet" me poisonally to keep me in the know.

Your other examples are false negatives, made irrelevant by the general collapse of the music biz, in which all are doomed to fail.   From 2000 on, many hit artists (platinum!) couldn't get a follow-up album issued.  Remember Joan Osborne?  Fiona Apple?   Most new deals these days are one-timers anyway.   And while no Xmas LP sells kazilliions, TLOS held its own in what is now a diminished market - not platinum, but respectable.   Which is as good as it gets when even Springsteen and U2's sales are Tank City compared to their prior grosses.  Let's see Mike's solo LP do better.  For all the reasons behind these caprices: Read the revealed word of the Guru Bob Lefsetz.

Stunning reviews are a good start.  Complete lack of outrage outside of hardcore Beach Boys fan circles is another.


Brian's next album of new material was picked up by Capitol Records, the largest company to express interest in a couple of decades, and hit #21 -- doing better than any other Brian solo album, and any Beach Boys album since "15 Big Ones".

So, non-trivial signs of a positive reception in the wake of Smile.

Regards,
Jon Blum

Brian Wilson Presents Smile IS Smile.

See?  Other folks can do it too.


Or, they'll like both.  Just like the fact that huge slabs of the Beach Boys version have been available since the 1993 box set completely failed to get the critics or the public to repudiate the finished Smile.

Oh, and "Time will tell" is the last refuge of the ideologue without a leg to stand on.  I spend a good chunk of my time over in Doctor Who fandom, for obvious reasons -- and when the show came back in 2005 as a hugely popular and beloved award-winning Top 20 hit series, a few die-hards kept insisting that "time will tell", and in a few years once the novelty wore off the world would finally see the new show as this empty style-over-substance trashfest which was so insulting to those fans.  Well...  four years on, and Doctor Who is now a hugely popular and beloved award-winning Top 10 hit series, which last year for the first time ever became the number one show in the country.

Trying to appeal to the judgement of history overlooks that history will be written by the overwhelming majority who loved it.

But of course you can always believe that the revolution's gonna happen the day after tomorrow...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Jon, we'll have to agree to disagree. I do see where you're coming from with your Doctor Who example.

As far as Smile vs BWPS, I'm a member of the "Smile was a Beach Boys album" train of thought. I enjoy BWPS as a live performance, as I went to see it twice and collected nearly all of the bootlegs looking for little changes - I recall back in '04 some threads talking about people noticing little changes in the vocals in a few songs. And I still feel that BWPS works best in a live context. But I believe that's how it should have remained. A live recording of BWPS, like on the BWPS DVD, or any number of bootlegs, is far more honest. Brian putting the music out there in a palatable form, as something that was supposed to be special - a real GRAND OCCURRENCE in the Beach Boys' saga that we'd never see again in person. If we saw it more than once or even more than twice we were all incredibly privileged. BWPS the album was fun, even for me, for a bit, then the novelty wore off and I was going back to my bootlegs. Plus, Brian's band, however impeccable they are every night, will never replace the Beach Boys for me.

I am importing my post from another recent thread but I think it fits this one enough to repeat it. I thought the use of Asher's lyrics on Good Vibrations was the big mistake. Of course Brian Wilson couldn't make Smile sound as good after 1974 because he lost his voice, and as I have opined before after the early seventies music wasn't recorded as naturally. Yet when I think about how bad it would have been if Joe Thomas or Landy were involved I thank God that the 2004 is as good as it is. It's the best it could be if not nearly what it would have been in 1966.

I stick by that because I just don't think the more eclectic elements of Smile are going to be fully understood by anyone but by a pre 1973 Brian. Meaning one with no brain damage or major personality change. Live or studio I did like what they did here. I am able to do this because I know that the Beach Boys of the sixties and early seventies could blow anyone away. I didn't like how the hype in 2004 downplayed the Beach Boys importance. I understand why Mike would be pissed although again I think he was dumb to sue. The BD doc is the worst offender to me. It doesn't even play original Beach Boys Smile music nor does it contain even have archive interviews with the others. At the end of the day though I am glad to have the record and to have seen the tour. I don't like a lot of the things surrounding Brian since the mid seventies, but hell if I like something musically I like it screw the politics.

lurker's opinion here:

I'm 24 years old (I believe that Brian was that age when producing SMiLE?) and since my early adolescent-years I've been a fan of Smile-boots.
It was under the radar, incredible music with a twist of madness. It was completely mine, nobody that I knew listened to those sessions and I guess nobody even took notice of the fact that there was more to the Beach Boys than Fun in the Sun-hits and Pet Sounds.

Since 2004 that is completely over. More people have heard SMiLE-music than that I could ever imagine. That's the great gift that only a studio-recording of SMiLE could give. It's seems obvious that nothing could even touch the brilliance of the 1966 recordings. But most of the record buying people don't tend to think in 'lost albums', 'bootlegs' and such. Even if they would be available in a legally released box. Heck, they don't even want a live album. Most of them only understand: record (or 'something I can download', but that's another point). Except for the drummer all the people in my band have bought a copy of SMiLE, as do many youngsters in the Netherlands.

We can debate forever about how bad SMiLE 2004 was (IMO it's not that bad at all, some choices were nifty, the sound will not be as dated as BW88 or Imagination) or that it's not the record Brian would have released in 1966. The fact is that he didn't, and music history would have been missing something were it not for the decision to bring SMiLE in 2004 (and I'm sure money was a big motivator). Of course you and I would have been happy with our ProjectSmile or PurpleMix and we would be discussing if With Me Tonight could have been a good part of Vega-tables and circlejerk. We had something to lose: our SMiLE-dream, the way we think SMiLE should be. But most people got a great gift: an introduction to SMiLE. Now let's hope they all will dig deeper and listen to the original tapes.


 

Dr. Tim, you can't have it both ways. You're trying, but you can't. First, YOU use the 300,000+ number to validate BWPS. Then, you go ahead and use the "general collapse of the record biz" as a reason for the non-sales of WIRWFC and TLOS. Really? It wouldn't have anything to do with the public who bought BWPS NOT BEING as thrilled about it as you think. And, you still haven't supplied the SALES FIGURES for WIRWFC and TLOS; I still think they're related to BWPS. Oh, and the comment about Mike Love's solo album doing better; really added a lot to your post.... ::)

Jonathan Blum, so BWPS had some "stunning" reviews? Well, it must be great then....

Love-chan, you're almost plagarizing my posts about BWPS. But that's OK, because we're right! ;D

 

Same here...I love BWPS, especially on vinyl. Yet there are so many little things that drive me nuts about that album when compared to the original tapes. Sometimes it seems like the tempos are a little fast...(remember Brian telling Dennis to lay back on the beat during the Holidays session), or the H&V trombone line fades too fast...I know I'm nitpicking but it is the intangibles like that which make the SMiLE! tapes so perfect...and honest.

Still, everynow and than I get in the mood to listen to listen to BWPS from start to finish without complaint. It's just weird, but from BW we should expect nothing less, I suppose.

That's pretty good.  But all kidding aside, how do you feel about BWPS?

Not just "some" stunning reviews; an overwhelming consensus of them.  The average score of 97/100 on metacritic puts it at the absolute top of the site's Best-Reviewed Albums list, covering the whole of the decade.

And the point is not "it must be great", rather "people in general think it's great".  Your question was about perceived quality, what people thought of it, not some sort of supposedly-objective True Quality -- that's a whole different kettle of worms.  And basically, everywhere you look, from the critical raves to customer review sites (the user poll on metacritic is comfortably in the green zone as well), all the evidence points to Smile going down really, stupendously well with people.  And TLOS getting a better reception than his last couple of albums before it too.

Once again -- TLOS hit #21, GIOMH hit #100.  Even if those just represent first-week sales, that's still a clear sign of increased demand in the wake of Smile.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Thank you Mr. Blum.  I make stuff up, but you've got the STATS.  So TLOS did pretty well after all - even in spite of the music biz falling apart in 2008, it still hit #21.  I don't think that's having it both ways.  Though even if it was of course that's my job to do that.  And that's the real measure.  TLOS was the real BWPS follow-up, on a major label. 

The Xmas record?  OK but not in my rotation.  Frankly, any jerk can do a Xmas album, and they usually do.  So you're right, I don't count it.

Now my olive branch to the sheriff: you want to know how Mike's solo album can do as well as Brian?  And Al's too?  Seriously? Stop waiting for some so-called "major" (ho! hee!) label to bite on it.  He should put it out HIMSELF and use the Web as a tool to (1) whet fans' appetites, and (2) distribute the thing, as MP3s, FLAC downloads, regular CDs and LPs, or best of all, all the above.   And push the merch at their shows.  Phish has built a whole industry for themselves doing just this.

Brian does some peculiar things and I have no use for the Bloo otherwise, but one thing he has done right is let some stuff out of the bag on the website, like the MAD/Forever Surfer Girl demos.   Or we get a link to something special at a special time from a special person with access.  THAT'S how you keep the fanbase interested.

Now if Mike (and Al) jump off the cliff and do this they might be pleasantly surprised.  The couple of Mike tracks I have heard, like "Cool Head Warm Heart", are pretty good.  If the rest of the album is that good he should be in fine shape.  On the other hand, if they've been told of this option and still want to opt for the old dinosaurs to give them a big advance, then they both will have a long wait and I stand by my wisecrack.

Here endeth my discussion of Brian's production tricks.

Exactly. Most of those critics had already been wowed by the original Smile material, and all BWPS had to do was be a pale facsimile to get rave reviews. Their reviews were part of an attempt to get the concept of the Smile project out there in the public eye. The reviewers were more in love with that than BWPS. Fact is, BWPS is simply NOT talked about in musical circles now unless you count BB-centric ones like this message board. People ignore it. It makes no "best of..." lists or anything like that. It gets a little respect if it's brought up, but that has more do to with it being in the afterglow of Smile's mythology. Do you think that Smile '67 would have had the same reception? I don't. Even if a released Smile '67 had turned into an unholy mess, with "CIFOTM" and "With Me Tonight" put into the song "Vegetables" or the jazzy take of "Wonderful" being used over the original to give examples, it still would get more attention now from musical circles than BWPS does.

I like BWPS. But most people I know also think there is something wrong with me for listening to an album full of growly Brian Wilson vocals.

edit - Which brings me to another point. Brian shouldn't have sang on BWPS. It would've been like using a horribly out of tune piano that's in disrepair on all of the tracks because it was from some vintage Smile sessions. I understand that with Brian there is a human element you have to account for, he's not just an instrument. I'm just speaking performance wise.

Sorry for the bad vibes sockittome.  Please accept my apology.  Apparently I am a bit touchy on the subject!

Perhaps more like TLOS did pretty well because of the collapse of the music industry as we know it.  In short, the boomers are the only ones who still buy albums at all, which means that Capitol has an incentive to sign a guy like Brian, what with the teen and college oriented music market having been co-opted by the web, and his record is far more likely to move up the charts when the over all volume of sales has gone down, especially if the only people still buying albums are over 40 :-) 

erm... so who would've sung? the faceless wondermints? they pretty much did everything else that if you removed brian's voice it would be "the wondermints perform a collection of edited songs from the beach boys' ill-fated 'smile' album."

Darian Sahanaja. Look at him, he should be a star:
(http://www.dumbangelmagazine.com/images/bluebeet-dom-darian.jpg)

hellllllllllllllllllllllllllll no.

brian singing badly destroys darian singing his best. he's just bland.

Fact is, you're just making this up.

Or, less confrontationally -- can you give me some examples of "musical circles" in which Smile is discussed today, at all, but BWPS is ignored?

Bonus points if those links aren't just to wanky circle-jerks among other flavors of music fanboys, either.  :-)


I think Smile in '67 would have had a decent reception, but it wouldn't have had forty years of whispered mythologizing on its side to make people worship it either.  I think today it would be regarded as Brian Wilson's interesting experimental followup to "Pet Sounds", appreciated by conoisseurs, but way more of a "Their Satanic Majesties Request" than a "Sgt. Pepper" or a "Pet Sounds".  A cult album, a fan favorite, "Holland" writ large...  at most a "Forever Changes", beloved by the cognoscenti, rather than an "Are You Experienced?", which everyone knows as a classic.

(And none of this has any bearing on how good I think the music is -- in that universe I'd be listening to it thinking "Why don't more people appreciate this little gem of an album?", just as I do with Holland or TLOS...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Look, Smile is and always be a lost and unfinished Beach Boys album that should have been released in 1967 but got shelved, after which Brian Wilson, their leader, started his downward spiral. Period. That's rocklore. Arguing that the composer should have final say about the subject, that it was finished in 2004 and was always meant to happen that way, that's stuff for Beach Boys message boards. BWPS moved a respectable number of copies thanks to the myth built by 37 years of hype. To some extent, Smile is still debated out there: the album that would top Sgt Pepper or some crap like that. BWPS is a footnote at best.

You could call BWPS a fake because it is similar to Knossos palace in Crete. This is where the story of Theseus fighting the Minotaur comes from. It is an amazing ruined palace, except in the early 20th century the guy who excavated it added loads of concrete and painted bits to try and reproduce how he suspected or imagined the original palace to look. The result is that as a visitor you can't really tell which ruins are authentic, and which are recent concrete additions, which is a bit frustrating.

BWPS however is not the same. Firstly the principle composers are significantly involved in the 'reconstruction', unlike Knossos Palace. Secondly they are not attaching the new bits (e.g. the new melody/words to Blue Hawaii/dada) to the original fragments, which means the original sessions remain entirely unspoiled by the new reconstruction. This allows the hardcore fan to easily appreciate the ruins as they stood in 67, to discern what in the 04 rebuild is largely authentic to the original design (i.e. Cabinessence) and to spot what is a new addition.

If you'll indulge this pretentious analogy for one more paragraph: If BWPS were Knossos it would be a life-size reconstruction and rehash of the ruins by King Minos, his chief advisor, and a modern day hot-shot architect, that stood not in place of, but next to the original ruins so the curious visitor could easily compare the original and the new version. Many would argue that the original ruins had a certain charm lacking in the new life-size model and they'd be right. But if they just venture next door to the reconstruction they'll see that it contains some beautiful authentic features remembered by Minos himself, that were lost in the ruins. Some people would also enjoy the chance to walk around the re-imagined palace without coming up against giant holes, and crumbling walls everywhere. So both the original and the reconstruction have their own merits and are not mutually exclusive. Personally I don't believe BWPS is a fake, but just another piece of the puzzle which you can incorporate or discard depending on your p.o.v.

As I said in my earlier (and first post) there is lot's of talk about SMiLE 2004 in my generation (born in the 80's).
You can pick up a copy of SMiLE 2004 for like 8 dollars and bring it as a present to a diner party. You can't come with some dvd filled with 60 versions of all the H&V-elements, that just a bad gift for the uninitiated. That is just what SMiLE 2004 is: a real record, that can bring the joy of SMiLE to the noobs, the people that normally won't download/buy a bootleg.

Saying that SMiLE 2004 isn't Smile is pretty funny considering that all the sessions from '66/'67 aren't Smile either. It does not exist. I see them both as variations on the same theme, the original sessions being the better (and sometimes only decent) versions of the great songs, the 2004-album as the only pop record that is based on those songs. Nobody really knows what it was supposed to sound like, including Van Dyke and Brian.

Saying that 2004 is disrespectful to the original Beach Boys or their fans is somewhat disrespectful to common people who know nothing about the sandbox, a guy who fell into his french horn and what the difference between the sound a real harpsichord and a sampled on is.
 

Buddhahat's analogy is pretty good.  The analogy I like is to compare the completion of Smile 2004 with the Deryck Cooke completion/performing version of Mahler's 10th Symphony.  Of course Mahler was dead 50 years when Cooke first presented his initial orchestration (Mahler had through-composed the entire symphony but only orchestrated a couple of the movements).  In 2004 Brian and Van Dyke revisited their work (with Darian and others) and produced their concert performing version, which I think will be the one that "sticks" historically.   Many of the arguments we are having here about 1966 Smile and 2004 Smile were (and still are) made about the Mahler 10th.   Mahler's widow originally vetoed it (which would have been the end), but then relented.   There were a few cranks who think it should have been left in the box unheard.  Before he died Cooke revised his first version to strip it down a bit.  Both have been recorded and there is a debate over which is the better one, both have their advocates.  Several other musicologists have since tried their hand at performing versions trying to suss out other orchestral choices Mahler might have made.   The fundamental question with both works is: how do they sound as a performance?  Do they pack a wallop or not?  In the case of Mahler's 10th, academic correctness aside, the consensus is that it's a worthy concert experience, with a finale that brings down the house and ranks with Mahler's best self-completed work.

Not a bad comparison, methinks, with a BDW work where the musical community is judging it on what it is, not on what is correct, and not on whether it should be allowed to be heard by anybody in any form.  Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

Hah! Another production trick!

Good Point...I ran into some dudes our age, (children of the 80's!), at a Christmas party and I overheard them raving about BWPS. One is in a Rock/punk/emo band from NYC, and the other dude was a hipster (for lack of a better word). I immediatley got excited, jumped into the conversation, and then quickly realized that they couldn't give two poops about the original tapes. They (and many others I've met) liked the story of the sandbox, but that was about as far as it went. They will probably never track down the origianl Cabinessence or even Surf's Up 71. That's OK with me. I think they are missing the good stuff, but they aren't too into the Boyz'.

I have not  posted in quite a while, as I feel I have nothing of true worth to say on this board. However, reading this thread has stirred me to speak my mind here. Once again we are judging BWPS on a variety of merits. I will say at one point I felt strongly about both sides of the issue. BWPS came out when at a time I didn't even know what a bootleg was. I had only heard snippets  of the "former" smile and I really did not know what to expect. That day September 28th, 2004 I was completely blown away by what I heard. From then on, my curiosity in smile became an all time high. I was hell bent in trying to find any snippets of the 66 - 67 stuff as I could. Eventually I heard most of what is out there, and I began to think differently. Now it has been 5 (soon to be 6) years since BWPS's release. I came to the conclusion is as a purist and someone who does appreciate the  newer stuff, that both of these Smiles  can coexist. As many of you would love to forget, most of us were ecstatic for BWPS. Then the criticism came out. Darian sang too many Doo You's. Mrs. O Leary's Cow wasn't scary enough. Pro tools made Brian suck. The list goes on and on. As criticism isn't a bad thing, I feel that overtime it has gotten worse. To the point that it has become silly. Now we have people saying they should have never done it? Good grief and coming out of the mouths of some people who waited all the night to get the bootleg of the first Smile performance in February of 04? I am not calling everyone out, but how hypocritical can some of you be? BWPS was the next step for them to take. The time was perfect and the right people were in that project. It should not be judged on the merit that it was not going to be the 66 - 67 smile. It should be judged on it's own terms. Yes we can't hear it without wondering about the Smile beforehand, but without the smile of before, it stands as not only an accomplishment on Brian's part but the band and everyone else involved who made it happen too. Those are real heroes for Brian's music.

Now, the second thing that has gotten to me here is the bashing I should say of Wondermints and "faceless?" Is that all you can say? A common misconception, the Wondermints is not the entire Brian Wilson band. That is only 4 out of 10 people. Second , I don't get the negative vibe people have about his band. They are not only fantastic musicians in their own write but loyal to Brian and great people. For those who seem to think down on the Wondermints, I would be more than happy to direct you here http://caravangems.podbean.com/ I just did a Wondermints show just recently on my college radio station. I would like to challenge some of you skeptics to hear some of this. Unless my ears are lying to me, they are fabulous in their own write and as a side note I had so many great responses from that show, that I am even doing another one next semester! So unless a lot of deaf people are listening to my show  :lol

That's a funny sentence!  :lol

Hmm ok. So BWPS is adored between the silent majority of the youngsters today. That kinda closes the debate.  :)

"Faceless" - in that I cannot distinguish who's singing while listening to the record.

It's not that I'm unfamiliar with the musicians on it either - I've watched the DVD plenty of times, enough to remember what each person looks like and what (when it can be distinguished) their individual voices sound like, but on the record it just feels so faceless to me compared to hearing the Beach Boys. Do you like the singers on the I Just Wasn't Made For These Times album? Would you like them to work with Brian and re-record Pet Sounds? Why not?

It would have been part of the beauty of a completed Smile album back then - that a public, however underwhelmed and confused with the dramatic change, would hear a voice like Mike Love's, more famous for singing about girls, cars, surfin' and beaches - singing the cryptic "Over and over the crow cries uncover the wheat field" in some of his best singing to date.

I have nothing against the musicians that work with Brian. I think they're pretty great for what they're doing. They all seem like pretty nice folk too judging from the TLOS 'making of' DVD thing. 

That's pretty much how it happened for me. In 2005 I bought BWPS, after having read tons of articles about it and after hearing Pet Sounds for the first time and absolutely loving it. It was BWPS, and the whole legend behind SMiLE that made me want to seek out the original recordings. The Ryan Guidry SMiLE mix was the first taste of the 1966-67 tracks that I got and I ended up listening to it about twice as much as I did BWPS.

Well when you talk about public, who are you referring to? Are you referring to types like yourself or the younger crowd? I think the people that are super hip to BWPS are the young people who really don't know the whole story. I know people myself who have really liked the album who don't know the whole tale and like the album without needing to know the 37 + year history. That kind of scenario these days is possible...

Also another thing too, Brian's band is NOT trying to be the Beach Boys nor do I think they are trying to replace them. They do blend well, and sometimes with the way things are mixed you can't hear everyone like you would like to. That is why either seeing them live or hearing their other projects can give someone a better idea. After listening to Wondermints records for so long, I've begun to pick up people and that can get kind of freaky at times  :lol

And I am not saying sofonanm that you have anything against them. In the past though there has been that issue and that has needed to be addressed. There are still people out there who look down on them for whatever reason and at the end of the day, your opinion is your opinion but I think that is unfair. Paul McCartney was right when he said Brian's band is the best touring band in the world.

BWPS is what made me a fan. I was starting to become interested, but that was what sealed the deal.

I like the old stuff better....but it's unfinished.

BWPS is finished.

BWPS IS SMiLE.

 Not as it woulda-coulda-shoulda been. As it ended up. And it is a fucking cool piece of music.

Hearing about Smile made me a fan. I remember hearing about the shows in February on a music newsletter I was on when I was still in my hardcore Beatles stage. I thought it was cool but I didn't think much about it. Never realized how all that stuff would impact my life later.

Respectfully, buddhahat, I could not disagree more. I do not believe Brian Wilson was significantly involved in the "reconstruction" at all. I believe Darian did the overwhelming majority of the work, both creatively and physically. And, I believe Van Dyke Parks filled in the gaps, both with the lyrics and the "linking music".

Second, ATTACHING NEW BITS is exactly what they did do. They changed the song titles, the endings (eliminating the great fades), added new lyrics (to the instrumentals), put in discarded lyrics (in "Good Vibrations"), added a female voice, and added new art work (because they were too cheap to pay for the old stuff?).

You really think Brian Wilson was SIGNIFICANTLY involved? He didn't sequence it (he's admiited that), he didn't write the new lyrics and new music (Darian and Van Dyke did that), and, did he even show up for the recording of the music? Oh, sure, he didn't have to; he wasn't gonna play anything anyway, but do you think he could've at least been interested enough to show up? Just to do some of that "fake producing". Hell, the idea to "finish" SMiLE wasn't his idea anyway. It was his wife's!

I think this is a really good point. By virtue of being the easiest way to hear the key Smile tunes in one place, BWPS is going to be most noobs in-road to Smile now, which personally I think is great.

Thinking along these lines, I think what we'll see more of is as new bands fall in love with the Smile music (which will arguably happening for many years to come) and choose to cover the Smile material, it'll be the BWPS sequence that they use as a template - it'll just be the most logical thing to do rather than cover a Mark Linnet sequence of Vegetables or whatever, and so gradually, inevitably, far from erasing the significance of BW and VDPs 04 work on Smile, time will legitimise it. The fact that BW and VDP said they finished Smile in 04 is all that matters from a historical perspective. It now exists as a complete composition and there's no escaping that. BWPS made Smile more cover-able

Personally I LOVE the new lyrics, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are more vintage than we currently know. I wonder if there would've been more than one instrumental, (MOC). One thing that irks me a bit is that Oom- pa-pa part that opens the third movement. It seems weird.



A) I dig Taylor's voice on this record...that is BWPS' least of issues...IMO

B) Maybe they didn't use the original cover art because they know it truly isn't SMiLE 67. They did use much of the original art in the DVD, and creatively too. The illustrations inside BWPS are great.

Yes, I meant (Darian's) assembling, but also his sequencing, producing, playing, and singing - a lot of work, dontcha think?

I dig Taylor's voice, too, on some songs....I only listed her vocals on BWPS to add to the LIST of NEW bits/things that popped up on BWPS.

I vaguely recall a thread (maybe on this message board) where the original artist for SMiLE in 1966-67 (whose name escapes me), said that "they" (himself and Brian's team) couldn't come to an agreement or a financial settlement for the original artwork. If I'm wrong, somebody correct me...

No I think this right. Frank Holmes is the artist and I remember reading that they couldn't agree on the fee or something along those lines. Such a shame as that artwork would have been beautiful on BWPS, and I think subliminally would have convinced a few more doubters that BWPS is Smile!

Yer right...I caught onto that after I re-read yer original post. I tried to edit the post before anyone could quote that part!

Just to add I am another born on the 80s and I discovered BWPS in the blissful ignorance of the original sessions, and that album is the reason I am here today.  I have also turned some friends onto the album that are really into but - as others have mentioned - are not so interested in the original sessions.  I do love the vintage sessions however.

The comments on this board have obviously offered a different viewpoint to what I was originally exposed to in the press and Beautiful Dreamer, and I gotta say you have to an extent shattered my views on BWPS lol but I feel some here are overly cynical though do have a point.

Regardless of this the music on BWPS is still fantastic music in my opinion...it changed my life and thank goodness I discovered it before you lot were here to put doubt in my mind about its credibility ;)  There are even (few) aspects of BWPS that I prefer to the original sessions, although they are mesmerising.

Cheers

That's funny...that happens all the time to me on this board. Especially Brian's solo stuff.

They couldn't use the original artwork because there were issues with trying to get the older artwork and so they had to make something new. It was in the end about money.

Edit: and I just realized someone else posted this also haha.

Hey, if the music didn't do the job...  :3d

Even if it was perfect, there is always someone out there who doesn't think so.

Nope.  That's your preferred narrative.  There's another one out there now which is at least as valid:  the genius who started his great work, lost his grip, and after many years and with a fair bit of help from his friends managed to face it again and finish it.  That's your biopic, right there.

Next time they make a movie about Brian Wilson, you see if it doesn't have that ending...

Cheers,
Jon BLum

Because films are known to be without historical error or revisionism...  :-D

The guy who plays Darian is gonna have a lot of parts to memorize...  ;)

Nope. That's YOUR preferred narrative.

Jonathan, re-read Dancing Bear's opinion again, then re-read yours. In his heart, which one do think Brian believes?

I have a bit of a side question that ties into the debate that's going on at the moment:

In one of the documentaries, I can't remember which at the moment, there's a clip of Darian at his laptop playing stuff to Brian and that sort of thing. If you've seen it you'll know what I'm talking about. I've read that that was put on for the camera - which is not hard to deduce because Brian slips up and says something about Child segueing into Surf's Up.

Here's my gripe with that: why is it necessary to fake that scene?

They could've just interviewed Brian or Darian or both of them together or someone who was around and asked how the creative process went down. It could've been explained as, "I (Darian) collected all the bits of Smile from the original sessions and played them to Brian, who told me what to axe and what to leave, then we went about sequencing it and at each stage I'd play it back to Brian to show how it would go, and he'd make changes..." and so on. That they had to fake a scene and give no other disclaimer that it wasn't actual footage of what it was purporting to be seems... strange.

What's the deal with that whole thing?

Gosh, it's almost like the new album was done by a band.

Some people seem to forget that the album scheduled for '67 was not titled "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" -- it was a Beach Boys album.  Having other people in the band make contributions is hardly a betrayal of the concept.  And if the other participants' contributions this time were more significant than bitching about the lyrics?  It's all the better for it -- they made beautiful music out of it.  I think crediting the album to the Brian Wilson Band would have been quite appropriate -- but so is describing Brian as "presenting" the finished work, rather than it just being "Brian Wilson - Smile".  He's not claiming he did all the new stuff himself, even though he did take part in it and make significant contributions to the reconstruction (e.g, the vocals for "Fire").

Oh, and as for the idea that Brian wasn't involved?  I've seen Brian being blatantly uninvolved, sitting at the side of the stage behind a piano with a cigarette dangling out of his mouth.  I've also seen Brian Wilson onstage at the Sydney Opera House, singing "Surf's Up" for the umpty-dozenth time on the tour and positively beaming.  That's involved.

Yes, his wife had to suggest and nudge him into it.  That's normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness -- you don't want to do even the stuff you want to do, let alone stuff that'll be good for you.  He could have stayed the withdrawn figure he was at the first vocal rehearsal on the DVD.  But he didn't.  When he doesn't want to do something, you don't get him bouncing around in the studio for behind-the-scenes DVD extras or re-creating the sequencing sessions -- you get the thousand-yard stare.  What we see over the course of Smile is him getting involved.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

...Yes, that's why I said "at least as valid".

But I'm also saying that I think my preferred narrative is the generally preferred narrative.


I think he truly believes Smile is finished.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Are there people saying stuff like that out there? Jesus. They must have watched Beautiful Dreamer one time too many.


Are they remaking Beautiful Dreamer in the next decade? Interesting.  :)

I think buddhahat's point is that the existence of "In Blue Hawaii" does not change or overwrite the existence of "I Love To Say Dada", which remains freely available to anyone who picks up the box set (or, IIRC, the Beach Boys Smile playlist on iTunes).

In direct contrast to the reconstruction of Knossos, which did change the original.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Yes, but it's NOT normal for someone with depression and various forms of mental illness to be able to FINISH a project, of arguably his greatest work, of arguably anybody's greatest work - 37 years after the fact. Not only is it not normal, it's unbelievable, to me anyway. Oh, I suppose someone could attempt it, and call it "finished". I mean, they can sit in front of a camera and say anything they want, or are told to say. But, that doesn't make it finished. Then we start to get into that area of the "f" word, and I don't mean finished.

I think he doesn't care. But he must be glad that he has a new quick answer for those who bug him about Smile. "BWPS is my final say on the subject" certainly beats "I burned all the tapes".

Admit it. You don't like it and will never like it because it was done without the Beach Boys.

Rocker, with the aid of this message board, TV, YouTube, and other sources, I've seen several filmed interviews with Brian Wilson concerning BWPS. Not all, but several. He has been interviewed by a variety of people, asking a variety of questions, in different settings, with Brian being in all kinds of "conditions". And, those interviews go a long way in telling me what I need to know about what Brian's believes about SMiLE and BWPS.

Enlighten us, Great Sheriff! Tell those of us delusional souls who actually liked BWPS all of the varied quotes that "go a long way in telling me what I need to know about what Brian believes about S MiLE and BWPS."

Judging by the discussions on this board, FR0WN would be a more appropriate title for the album.

 :P

This is a good discussion, sofonanm. It's a good exchange of ideas. Jonathan is making some of the best "pro BWPS" points that I've ever read. As somebody posted a few pages back, how many places in the world can you go to read about and discuss the subject of SMiLE. And, as somebody else wrote, if you don't like/agree with some of the posts or posters, nobody's forcing you to read them.

Oh great. Please, anyone show me where, in this thread, those who dig BWPS are accused of doing so for non-musical reasons. Seriously. What a shame.

Oh, I like it, I just find it funny that there's probably been more ruffled eyebrows and tensed foreheads at work over an album called Smile than any other.

To the Bear,

I always felt from reading comments from yourself,  the Sheriff and others that I am Officially Not Supposed to Like Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE for a variety of reasons that have beaten into thee ground.  Perhaps other fans of the album feel the same way. For some people on this board BWPS was their introduction to the Beach Boys.

I can't speak for others, but, for me, it's passion. I'm passionate about the 1966-67 SMiLE music. Yeah, sometimes I feel a little sheepish that I spend/waste(?) so much time writing about it. But, it's harmless fun. I'm not hurting anyone. I try to respect all opinions (some I can't because they're personal), and learn something. Sorry to repeat myself, but there are so few of us "nuts" around, in one place - here, who can intelligently discuss this stuff. I mean, how many people do you know who you can discuss flip-flopping the second and third movements of BWPS with? That kind of fascinates me.

You know, I obviously do prefer the original SMiLE tapes, but I love BWPS. The argument is that Brian's voice isn't as good as 1966, and it isn't; but these are Brian's best vocals for a long, long time, at least 20 years. They've since been eclisped by TLOS, but they're very good for what they are. I agree with some people's guesswork that Darian enthused Brian/challenged him in the studio into getting good vocals and that it probably wasn't easy. The recording suffers from a lack of bass, but I honestly didn't noitce until about 10 listens in. The backing vocals are truly superb.

As for the lyrics being added, I can see why people get upset about that but I like to think that some of that was Brian's decision. In Beautiful Dreamer, you distinctly hear Brian say to Van Dyke "So can you add lyrics to that?" in a very innocent way.  I like to think that's at least partly Brian's decision. Pet Sounds had two instrumentals, SMiLE might've had "Holidays," "I Love to Say Dada" and "Fire," however we don't know what could've been there. At least "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is bereft of lyrics, and it might be the most spinetingling part of the album, truly brilliant.

And finally, the fade argument, one which slightly hampers my view of the album. I MISS the fade to "Cabinessence," but I can see why they did it: they were doing a very faithful replication of the LIVE version and as far as I know only "Busy Doin' Nothing" has ever been performed with a live fade. They aren't easy with such a large ensemble. Same thing with "Surf's Up," perhaps they were just speeding up the recording process to make sure that Brian maintained enthusiasm. Sounds like a theory to me.

Finally, I'd just like to close with one point that surprised me. In a very recent interview with Mark Linnett went out of his way to say that Brian extensively discussed the sound field he wanted for the recording. This, to me anyway, shows that Brian's participation is far more than what some of the skeptics say it is. I don't think that all of the people involved with BWPS would've put up with the large scam some are suggesting. Was there some funny business? Probably. But there probably has been in every BB related album since 1976 or even before.

So BWPS is not perfect, but to me it's the closest thing we have to a great BB related album (along with TLOS, in my opinion) since Love You.

Feeling is different than reading. I don't mind reading arguments about why I should or could love BWPS.

I won't, anyway. Just because it has no Mike Love in it.  ;D

That's precisely why I love it.


Not really, but it needed to be said.

For Christ's sake.

Sam_BFC and noname --

No one on this board knows anything. Well, I'll except AGD from that, and the usual suspects who have their own threads.

But the people who clutter up threads like this -- they don't know or have any better idea about what makes this music good or bad that anyone. To let SJS or whomever ruin your enjoyment of Smile or Brian's solo work -- just don't let it happen.

They have no special insight, other than the time to write post after post berating Brian, praising Mike, and looking for phantoms to shake sticks at.

Someone's butthurt. Truth does that to you.

Whew, it's time for me to meditate. :)

Song of the Grange, I apologize if I came off like I was calling you out for starting this thread.  We're all pretty passionate about this subject...and, well we should be.  The music we are discussing is such a part of our lives; it's a part of us.  

To make it up to you I'm going to put aside this whole BWPS is/is not SMiLE debate and address your OP directly:

I agree about the ambiance of the sessions that is missing from BWPS.  There's a certain warmth on those '66/'67 tapes that gets into your head and under your skin.  In some ways it defies description.  Like that aforementioned bass on CIFOTM.  I noticed it years ago, and even today it blows me away!  How did they do that?  Sadly, that did not translate to the BWPS version.  I don't know if they could have replicated that sound in today's studio atmosphere.  But I can deal with it.  

As we all know there are a few pieces of the CIFOTM sessions that aren't in the BWPS version.  One that comes to mind is the almost occapela chant with just the piano and that almost painfully high Brian falsetto that's followed by the percussion and bass figure that goes into the main part of the song.  Where did that go?

Oh well.  Bottom line is, I love having a finished version on BWPS with vocals and all.  It's my favorite part.  If I want to experience those details in the sessions I mentioned above, I can always go back to those boots and listen to it in sections.  Everybody wins!!!!!

IMO (I feel like I have to begin my posts with that to prevent death & destruction) those little pieces should've been worked into the SMiLE live show and the album. The band could've jammed on bits like that and had so much fun! Y'know how Brian sometimes plays the piano part near the end of "Wind Chimes"? Imagine if for that bit of CIFOTM he played the piano and sung while all other instrumentation dropped out and just the singers sung for a little bit and then... full band comes in to play that feel.

Interesting thing about that section I mentioned.  Sounds like that is one of the better preserved pieces.  It sounds really full and clear.  Unlike some of the other pieces that sound like a copy of a copy of a copy of a not so well recorded source!

First off where does anyone get off insulting anyone else's knowledge or opinion. We are all here to learn and exchange ideas. Anyone not willing to do that ruins it for everyone else. If someone likes the damn record great if not great who the foda cares. Everyone should think for themselves on the music, but the facts are that Brian's involvement was not and could not be what it was in 1966. That doesn't mean he didn't care or didn't do good work, but there was some hype. None of which matters if you like it or if you don't you don't. Brian is never going to be who he was in 1964 that's fine, and I guess the only thing I don't like is that people try to make it like he is. The Beach Boys management did that. so did his doctor, so did his current management. All grossly underestimate our intelligence and by all means Darian should have got his name in as big of letters as Brian's on the last three albums and on LOS Scott should of as well.  

Beyond all the crap is the music and I think Brian's done work live and in the studio over the last ten years that defies all expectations, and some which stinks. Frankly I can say and will say the exact same thing about Mike. I don't rank them completely equally but both have impressed me by trying consistently harder then they did through the eighties and nineties- 1993 box set tour and both the 87-88 and 1994-5 Paley sessions excepted.

The blueboard would benefit from this post, mang. Where Brian-centric opinions are facts and Mike-centric opinions are bannable offenses. :)

No, it's not normal for a person to climb a mental mountain like that -- it's a hell of an achievement.  But the normal bit is for a depressed person to need a lot of help in taking on a big task.  Which still doesn't mean they didn't climb the mountain in the end.

Besides, if I believed something like that was impossible, I'd just give up hope.  Cause my wife's got depression -- after a decade in which she wrote or co-wrote thirteen books, in the past six years she hasn't finished anything longer than a novella.  But after changes to her medication, and treating her sleep apnea, and a whole bunch of other little changes, she's doing better than she has in years... and I really believe this book she's been working on on-and-off since about 2001 will come out sooner or later.

Will she ever be the same relentless fireball she was back then, when I first fell in love with her?  Of course not, she's over 40 now and generally knackered.  Life happens.  But it's still one hell of an accomplishment to gain back so much lost ground.  Just like the way this doesn't need to be a "Brian's Back" he's-completely-fixed-now moment to be fundamentally a triumph.  24-year-old Brian will never be back, he flamed out decades ago, but over-65 Brian is way happier and more productive than he has been in decades.

A number of people here are so determined not to be "taken in" that they're downplaying and disparaging the very real recovery we've seen over the years.  The guy who I've seen six times in concert over the years, and each time he looks more relaxed and confident; the guy who was caught on videotape unawares while talking to Van Dyke Parks about how he hopes people will "get the f*** off" on the new lyrics for a project he spent decades refusing to face.  (No one's claiming that was staged.)  They're determined to believe that Brian is just a giant glovepuppet with Melinda's hand up his back, or that every time he refers to Smile having been finished he's just lipsyncing while Jeff Foskett speaks his words.  I think that's at least as much of an overblown self-serving myth, with people telling themselves what they want to hear, as the original "Brian's Back" was.  And it kind of reminds me of the dwarves from CS Lewis' last Narnia book, who are so hellbent on their worldview that even when they're transported to paradise they still see themselves as being in the dingy stables they were taken from.

At the end of the day, Brian went from not even wanting to talk about Smile to singing it.  That's the story.  You really can't erase that.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Mike Love's mind- gangsters are out to discredit and destroy....  :police:

So does a load of bull.  :-)

(...and now that I've got a mental image of a giant bull butthurting innocent Beach Boys fans, I think it's time for me to put the internet down and take two steps back...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Mike Love's Mind - a Tribute To Mike Love by Mike Love

Well hey there y'all
My name is Mike
I sing for y'all
And I do what I like

I been a Beach Boy
For as long as I know
Singin' Fun Fun Fun
And Kokomo

I don't know too much
But I know this much
TM is the way
15 minutes every day

Gangstas are out
To discredit and destroy
My relationship with Brian
And the other Beach Boys

I'm not hatin' on my cuz
And that I think you should know
'Cos when gangstas speak out
I just can't go with the flow

Brian is my friend
And I'm his biggest fan
But he took too many drugs
And he left Smile in the can

Now we have BWPS
And that's ok with me
But when you discredit my role
Well son that ain't cool with me

So when you hatin' on da Lovesta
This I think you should know
Sun and sand and girls and vibes're
How I go with the flow

I'm gettin' up in years
And that's just how it goes
But when fans say I'm a jerk
Man that just ain't my show

So when you see the Beach Boys
You might pay twenty or go for free
Just remember unlike Brian
We play the songs in the right keys

No dope
No booze
No bull
That's coo

Because I'm Mike Love
And that's just how it goes.

Oh I would be shot :lol. It's that mindset I am aiming at though.

It would end up on YouTube too!

That's what I'm about. I hope I ruined the Beach Boy's music for you. Sincerely.

But seriously, I just have one last thing to say. I think some of us are bitter because BWPS was, sort of, the end of the Smile dream. And let's face it, it wasn't a pop music revolution. It didn't change the face of music.  And that's what some of us liked, the idea that Smile was so amazing that it could have done those things. Maybe it could've had it been released in '67, but who knows? Maybe it would have always fell short of those lofty expectations. What music wouldn't?  But... but, We could always hold up a vain hope before, that Brian's magic touch would've brought those expectations to reality.

It's just really disappointing to some of us that music as brilliant as Smile, as presented on BWPS, had a relatively small impact on the world. So yeah, I wish the performances were better. Not because I hate BWPS (I like it, actually), but because I wanted it to be a revelation. And, at least, by blaming the performances on BWPS, I can still cling to those dreams. Even though deep down inside I know Smile always would've been a let down. That is, it would have to be let down in the wake of the ridiculous expectations we had for it.

OK, actually, Smile wasn't THAT important to my life. I like to dramatize. But you get the point,

I can't even reply to this seriously because the comment enclosed in parentheses is probably the FUNNIEST thing I've ever seen posted on this board.

Original Smile...hours and hours of brilliant sessions. Unfinished.

BWPS=one of the best albums I've ever heard.

It's impossible to ruin their music for me. I wouldn't keep coming back here if it did. IF anyone comes close, it would have to be the weaker efforts by the Boyz themselves. Besides, it is telling how BWPS is so threatening to people, especially the educated fans. To downplay BWPS' impact on the world is dangerous. Pet Sounds wasn't exactly hailed as art when it first came out. There seems to be loads of fans of BWPS who will never ever be a fraction of intigued in the Boyz' music as we are.

When Brian dies and there are mad news reports about him, I'm sure BWPS will be rightly acknowledged as one of his greatest achievements. It is not the SMiLE, but it still rocks.

Regardless, Brian Wilson is largely an underground phenomena in the world of pop/rock. How big of an impact could anyone expect?

well they're hardly going to say, "Brian Wilson, known for his work in the Beach Boys and his most accomplished solo album, Gettin' In Over My Head, died today..." now are they?

That'd be pretty damn cool if they did.  :afro

(I think) there was a post in this thread from someone replying to me about the whole CIFOTM stand up bass thing, where the poster said that they didn't know how that particular sound was achieved. I can't find the post but here's my reply:

The same bass sound (more or less) is all over Pet Sounds. Take the stand up bass on "You Still Believe In me" and give it a listen - it has the same quality. I think it's just the reverb chambers in the studio they used. What was used on BWPS? Digital reverb and delay? I dunno. But anyway, just imagine YSBIM without that big bass sound that carries the song like an elephant plodding along and you get an idea of how much was lost in translating CIFOTM (at least the stand up bass bits) to 2004.

Ok, time for us to meditate.

I reread the whole thread. Sheriff John Stone thinks that BWPS is musically subpar, that Brian didn't give a sh*t about it while it was assembled and recorded by Darian & Co and the whole project / PR campaign smelled funny.

Ok, what's so hurtful about those opinions? Many here agree with him. So, he guesses what's in Brian's mind... We do it all the time with every Beach Boy, in every thread. If you think BWPS is the best album ever made or something like that, so be it. Those points shouldn't ruin your apreciation for the album. No reason to take it on a personal level. BWPS is as open to criticism as SIP. Period. No two ways around it. Deal with it.

Seriously, this thread sucks worse than sampled harpsichords. And we know how those are EVIL.

Sampled Harpsichords suck donkey nuts, that's the truth. However, it seems as though some would argue that BWPS is just as bad as SIP, or that it is unworthy as an item soley based on comparison to the original tapes. Maybe, maybe not. What I think those who are trying to validate BWPS are saying is just forget the stories, original recordings, and all the bogus-ness, and just appreciate BWPS for the good music that it is. Perhaps that's too much to ask for.

I'd rather not...

Of course BWPS doesn't make me cringe or throw the stereo through the window. It's very listenable, poor vocals and all. I tried to listen to it in 2004, yeah, forgetting the stories, original recordings, and all the bogus-ness. First, when I listen to the tracks that were completed in 66-71, I feel like it's a waste of time. "Why am I listening to this inferior version of Cabinessence? I'd rather listen to 20/20, Bluebirds and all". The tracks that were completed now and don't have direct competition, now those are interesting. Plimouth Rock, CIFTTM and Song for Children. Yeah. Good stuff. The rest, I didn't care for them in their barebones boot version anyway, and I didn't feel anything added made them better. Well, I kinda liked Dada, but I don't like the new vocal melody. Now, the three movement structure. Yeah, Let's stop wondering if it was designed by Dom Priore, Darian, Brian or Ricky Fataar. You know what? I still don't care for it. With the exception of the nice flow in the second movement, it sounds to me like a Thick-as-a-Brickish fan mix tape. It doesn't add anything IMO. It doesn't BOTHER me, but then, there goes through the window any motivation I'd have to endure the inferior rerecorded versions for the sake of a "completed work". About Brian and the project's personal triumph angle, let's say I only care about his music. But good for him, anyway.

There you have it. You BWPS lovers can say that I have no taste, but please cut this crap about prejudice. How would you feel if I said you only don't care about SIP because Brian isn't in it?

I think I read Mark Linnett say they used sampled reverb of the original echo chambers.

For me, it's not so much about Brian's own involvement as he didn't seem to be capable of reaching aesthetic decisions some of his most dedicated hardcore fans would be perfectly happy with anyway (I'm thinking of GIOMH's production and sloppy vocal performances or even calling BWPS a "three-part rock opera", which might've hurt the feelings of those who consider The Beach Boys and Good Vibrations/Smile in particular to be the complete opposite of seventies prog rock kitsch). It's the beautiful live performances I do remember with great fondness, no matter if Darian Sahanaja might have pulled most of the strings when it came to the sequencing of the show. After all, he's quite a gifted person, "faceless" or not.
Some postings however do pose the interesting question if the world got more of a real Smile in 1993 (Good Vibrations box set) than in 2004, the answer to which depends on whether you like to view Smile as completed or whether you prefer to let the legend continue. As it is, I too prefer the Beach Boys versions of both Cabinessence and Surf's Up over the 2004 re-recordings, which do not have as much of an atmosphere of their own I'm afraid.

I think this needs to made a new topic, but by somebody else: DARIAN'S "DOO-YOOB": Did it kill BWPS before it was barely even started?

No, but it helped to ruin Heroes and Villains for me.

I would laugh if there was actually a thread created on that.  :lol

I have absolutely no problem with the job Darian did with BWPS. None. He did a tremendous job, better than anyone could've expected. He did what he was paid to do; he earned his money. I have very few complaints with his contributions to BWPS.

However, I was slightly surprised that he accepted the job - specifically, the re-recording of the SMiLE songs - in the first place. Darian was a longtime SMiLE fan, so it must've broken his heart to re-record the tracks.

Darian, we want you to re-record "Our Prayer", replacing The Beach Boys' voices, and re-record "Cabinessence", replacing Carl Wilson's vocals.

Darian, we want you to replace Dennis Wilson's contribution to SMiLE, his soulful vocal on "You Are My Sunshine", and put in Brian's voice.

Darian, we want you to remove some lyrics from "Good Vibrations" and replace them with some early, demo lyrics. Oh, and also, would you please end the album with "Good Vibrations."

Darian, would you please eliminate all of Brian's fades, especially on "Cabinessence" and "Surf's Up", and have the songs come to an abrupt ending. Then after you do that, link the songs together, and come up with some new music while you're at it.

Darian, we're gonna change the album title, song titles, the art work, and credit Brian as producer. But don't worry, you'll get some credit, and we'll take care of you. We just don't want you to be upset when you see the final product.

I gotta hand it to Darian. Like I said, he did a fine, fine job. I just wonder if he ever considered passing on it.

Not a chance.

He told a fan in 2003 before work started that he "wanted to f*** with the myth".

Does that sound like a guy with second thoughts?

As much as people do like to trash him, I do believe Darian was the best one for the job. There could have been someone else who could easily have REALLY messed it up & make people even more p'oed. I'm sure he had a lot of pressure on that project and he did what he could do.

It was like George Martin accepting to produce the Sgt Pepper Lonely Hearts Club Band soundtrack. Praphrasing: "Of course I had second thoughts about the project. But if I didn't do it, someone else would and I'd hate the results. I decided to do it myself and get very well paid for the job, which didn't hurt".

Has Darian ever posted here? What about anyone else from Brian's band?

Darian strikes me as an internet nerd. Someone should drag him over here for some good discussion.

Anyone know him? I guess he could be contacted through myspace...

And here we have it again:  nothing has been replaced.  "Prayer" is still available in its untouched box-set form.  Arguably the Beach Boys did more to "replace" the original before then, when the only version they made available for a quarter of a century was the overdubbed one in '69.  (And replacing the unreleased "Wonderful" with the Smiley Smile version is just mind-boggling.)  Brian, Darian, and company created a new version -- one which achieved what Brian couldn't in '67.  It stands alongside the original releases, not on top of their ruins.

Now, if people were making this argument about the only release of "Soul Searchin'" being the one with the other Beach Boys' vocals removed, I could understand that.  But with Smile, we've got our cake and we can eat it too...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Speaking for myself, it's the leap beyond that to the idea that many outside here agree with him which I was faulting.

For that matter, I'd even question the "many here", bit.  A few, loud people here agree with him -- but if you look at the poll even on this site, seriously about ten times as many people voted Smile 5/5 as gave it 2/5 or less.

Now, does that make the Sheriff's opinion or personal taste invalid?  Of course not -- there's plenty of room for different views, and anyone on any side of an issue can have an interesting insight.  But it means that anyone inventing an army of millions who stand behind those views is doing it without a leg to stand on.  That's all...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

No he hasn't, but a few of us around here have met him. He is a very cool guy and has 0 ego. Some people in Brian's band have posted a little in the past on other boards such as the blueboard, but unless they are under aliases I have yet to be known of their presence here. I wouldn't be surprised if they  wouldn't post here, considering sometimes the nature of threads.

Time for me to be unmasked:

Ladies, gentlemen, I am......... Jeff Foskett, i.e., cookie monster.

Worship me, I sing "Don't Worry Baby".

 >:D

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

SurferGirl7 is really Melinda.... :o

You wish  :p

I think I have a better chance of being Darian's ex girlfriend....


 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I'm really Brad Pitt.

We are getting off topic are we? Okay, how does Brad Pitt represent the downfall of BWPS anyone...?

Mr. Blum, I thought you were gonna take a break from internet. Welcome back.

Ok then. The next time anyone puts BWPS down as the piece of crap, nadir of Brian's career, nuclear embarassment and shameless fraud it is, he/she'll make sure it's just one's opinion. And then we'll have world peace.  :)

Jonathan, you're leaving out one very important detail. When The Beach Boys released those above songs, they didn't refer to them as the "finished SMiLE". But, when Brian re-recorded those same songs, HE DID! And that is the basis of my argument right there.

You can't take a bunch of old SMiLE era songs that were assembled, sequenced, arranged, and rehearsed - FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF A LIVE PERFORMANCE - and then, turn around and re-record them, note for note, with absolutely nothing new added or substracted from the live performance, and proclaim, "This is the finished SMiLE". But, that's exactly what Brian did. Why? Because an ex-car salesperson with three young kids and a big mortgage thought it was good idea? What happened to Jeff Foskett's pre-BWPS concert speech (and I'm paraphrasing), "This is just a live performance of SMiLE and we're just doing our best to perform these songs to the best of our abilities." Little did Jeff know at that time that he WAS performing THE FINISHED SMiLE! How about that......

Jonathan, you got it wrong again. It's not about "a few loud" people, or the polls. You're forgetting about The Silent Majority. :police:

...And?

Doesn't change the point, nothing's been "replaced".  If you're interested in the legend of Smile, you'll know the Beach Boys versions of those tracks exist -- and they're right there on CD or (AFAIK) iTunes.  Smile the unfinished Beach Boys album is still there.  Smile the finished Brian Wilson album is too.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Don't the forget the silent minorities, too. They factor in. The loud minorities too. Not sure if there is a loud majority, or it's that they don't seem loud too each other because they're all yelling at the same time, and our ears getting adjusted to a higher volume of sound.

That's the thing about silent majorities, they're always so *vocal* about it...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

Sheriff - As Jhon Blum mentioned earlier, they have not attached new bits to the original sessions. They have re-recorded a new production, and the distinction is important because it means the Smile you loved pre-BWPS still exists. It is only in your mind that Melinda et al have foda'd with your Smile, please believe me!

I think what this discussion always boils down to is the legitimacy of calling BWPS the finished Smile. Logically the best answer to this is what do Brian and VDP think? Unfortunately as Brian is mentally ill, if he is quoted as saying BWPS is the finished Smile, half the Smile fans will argue that he is just a puppet for his management and has words placed in his mouth prior to interviews. Likewise if he moans that he was totally co-erced into working on BWPS and had F all to do with it, the other half will argue that he's having one of his bad days. Both sides of the debate can throw quotes at each other but I don't think it ever resolves the dispute.

Personally from all the quotes I've read from the principle participants, my hunch is that Brian collected the songs together into groups that grew into the movements, and also had final say in what to keep and what to trash i.e. He Gives Speeches. He also was responsible for the fantastic segue from Wonderful into Look, he remembered the missing melody to Worms, and he wrote some new melodies such as the verse bit to Child, and the melody to Blue Hawaii. I think the more complex work of sequencing the internal structure of songs, and organising the entire piece to make it flow aesthetically and work conceptually was probably more the work of VDP and Darian, but even then I may be short-changing Brian in this assumption. I think he's far more capable creatively than many people give him credit. My point though, is my hunch of who did what probably works out at a fairly even 3 way split, 33% Darian, 66% Brian/VDP which makes me happy to consider BWPS the composition (not the studio recording) as predominately the work of the original composers (and this is not taking into consideration the original work they did in 66/67 - just the new stuff. Of course this all just my hunch, and utterly worthless as a result, but it means I can put  my copy on the turntable and think Wow! Brian and VDP finished Smile and it sounds great!

I guess to sum things up at the end of this thread, I still think that BWPS's biggest (and unavoidable) problem is that the box set songs were copied verbatim for the most part, and all other tracks that were only in bootleg form were copied from that bootleg form (I'm In Great Shape, Barnyard etc).  Looking at BW's output from GV to the Smiley Smile release, nearly everything has a touch of BW's production and mixdown wizardry (as mentioned in the original post of the thread).  What we are missing with BWSP (as great as it is to have in our lives) is that brilliant 1967 BW production mind.  Listen to the tracking sessions for H&V or Smiley Smile or even GV.  Just slicing the pieces of music together in the right order doesn't approximate the finished BW product.  She's Going Bald gets a tape speed trick, H&V cantina version gets a big blast of tape feedback.  I am arguing that nearly everything on the box set would have had these production touches, which we don't get because the track never got to the key mixdown stage when Brian put these final touches on.  It would have made a big difference in what the final song was, as can be seen by that Jan 67 H&V mix.

For BWPS were the stand-alone tracks and linked tracks performed live and recorded all way through (i.e., no modular recording style like the original sessions)?

The answer is probably a Yes but I think it has a fair amount of meaning to this discussion. Part of the charm of the SMiLE sessions to me is the modular recording style and the finished product (as seen on Good Vibrations, glimpsed on Heroes and Villains, and demonstrated on Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, etc.,) which had its own unique sound as a result of it. BWPS probably would've sounded less sterile to my ears if they had continued in this style (which, although much more difficult than just recording the full songs live, would still be a lot easier in Pro Tools days than when Brian was doing it).

From what i understood, i thought the sections were recorded in pieces, just like the 66/67 originals. But i think the big difference probably is, is that they were most likely recorded in sequence and in the same studio, on the same day, with the same musicians, in the same positions, with everything set up exactly the same. So even though they used the modular technique to edit the thing together, there was less scope for randomness and variety and just plain different vibes to influence each individual piece.

Unlike the original recordings which seemed to be recorded at random, at different studios, etc.

The same but different. Kind of sums up BWPS.

You're right Andy...the recording techniques were discussed at length in the great Sound on Sound article around that time.  Ironically, the one exception was "Good Vibrations," which was played straight through without edits.

Interesting.

I love BWPS, but there has always been something about the CD that leaves me less than completely satisfied, and I think I figured out what it is after purchasing and listening to the Good Vibrations CD single.

On the single, there's an instrumental version of "In Blue Hawaii".  Exactly the same mix as on BWPS so far as I can tell, except minus the vocals. 

It sounds fantastic to me.

IMO, the major difference between the new Smile and the old is the quality of the vocals, particularly some of the harmonies.  As great as Wilson's new band is, they just didn't deliver the vocal alchemy that the BBs did on those cuts.  In fact I think the vocals sound much better on TLOS.  There are bits on BWPS when it sounds to me as if the guy with the least great voice was standing closest to the mic....   :p

I agree, except for "That sucky old / sucky old / sucky old sun"...  >:D

:lol 

Welcome Menace, allow me to introduce myself; I couldn't help but notice.... :-D

For some reason, this piece of fact is conveniently ignored when people claim SMiLE as finished.

Surely people of that opinion will say that the live performance IS what they worked out as the finished SMiLE?

I'm glad you posted; this discussion was beginning to die. I was getting bored.

BWPS is the difference between a 24 year old guy and a 60 plus year old guy.

More than that - it's the difference between a 24 year old Brian Wilson and a 60 plus year old Brian Wilson. It's like two different people.

MAybe Brian deliberately released BWPS as is to enhance the original 66/67 tapes.  ::)

The reason is because it turned into a BWPS bashing thread. I would love to talk specifics about the production of BWPS compared to the original tapes...such as the 'thump' in the Bicycle Rider chorus that was lost on BWPS, or the structure of H&V, or whatever. Then the discussion would ultimately consist of intelligent discussions not only about BWPS but also the genius of the original SMiLE sessions and how they could never ever ever be reproduced as magically as they once were. Doesn't really matter, but I can totally relate to everyone's antipathy to BWPS- however I like it for what it is, not hate it for what it is not.

Or the digital clipping right at the beginning of "Our Prayer" on BWPS that ruins the album from the very first second?  >:D >:D

Exactly...but er.....what is digital clipping? I'm not hip to all that technical stuff.

In this instance, it's not digital clipping as much as a bad edit. The sound heard is the end of someone inhaling, enhanced by reverb.

Also, I don't mind people saying saying that SMiLE was finished on some level, because it was.

I just think it's a lame to say "BWPS is better than 66/67 because it's finished", when the intent of finishing SMiLE in '03/'04 was for a live presentation, not a studio album.

 

Methinks the most fishy thing about it is that in every interview about why he decided to finish SMiLE, Brian says: Oh, my publicity agents and my wife said Brian: I think it's time to do SMiLE!. It's never: I was sitting around at home tinkering on my piano and I was reflecting on how my masterpiece from my youth was never finished. So I called up Van Dyke Parks and asked him to help me once again in completing the project. Then I told my wife and managers and they were all for it!

 

Yeah, I thought that the "Bicycle Rider" chorus never sounded finished on the Smile outtakes, but they barely changed it on BWPS.

The "Who Ran the Iron Horse" is missing some fuzz and the railroad crossing sound was cooler when it was played on the bridge of a guitar instead of a on hubcap (I suppose now it sounds more like someone hammering a spike, but I thought the chorus was supposed to sound like a train going by). The extra fuzz, coupled with some occasional violin squeaks on the Smile version, make it really sound like a train.

The cool bass part on the chorus of "Child is Father of the Man" is lower in the mix on BWPS. That a part lways sounded way ahead of its time, like something out of a Boards of Canada or Aphex Twin song.

The BWPS "Wind Chimes" sounds like it should be on Broadway, and I don't mean that in a good way.

On the SMiLE live DVD performance thingy... the funniest moment is when Brian goes "Wind chiiiimes" and throws his head and hands back in a grin... the camera quickly moves away like "Erm, this is kind of embarrassing".

On the subject of the bass (again) - Brian's use of fuzz bass is some of the most tasteful of that era. Listen to the bass in the chorus of Child - it fits so perfectly. The tone is perfect, full of life. On BWPS it's low in the mix and has no low end. It has no guts.

Who said that?

I've read the interview where Darian says that Brian told him to junk HGS. But are there any interviews in which Darian, VDP, or Brian himself say that Brian actually composed new music for BWPS?

I either read (or it's in the Beautiful Dreamer doc) that Brian would bring the new pieces he'd written and Darian would ask him if it is a new or remembered vintage melody and Brian would just respond that it was inevitable. I might be remembering this incorrectly but I'm sure it was something like that and did suggest that Brian was going off and composing stuff independently for BWPS.

Inevitable? That's an odd word for Brian to use. Meaning that whatever he newly composed would
be a natural final evolution or finished version of the music for that section of the album?