The Smiley Smile Message Board

The traditional view is that the failure of SMiLE was the turning point for Brian; after he abandoned it, he retreated from leadership of the Beach Boys and was never the same.  This view is well expressed on the Wikipedia page for Smiley Smile:

"Smiley Smile marked the end of Brian Wilson as the leader of The Beach Boys. Although the album was mostly produced by him, the production was for the first time credited to the group. The following years saw the former band leader become less and less involved in music production."

But is this really true?  The next album, Wild Honey, contained 11 tracks, 9 of which were Brian Wilson originals.  He sang on nearly every track, sang lead or co-lead on a number, and was largely responsible for the arrangements and production.

Next came Friends, which contained 12 tracks, a full 10 (or 11 if you credit him for Little Bird) co-written by Brian.  He sings lead or co-lead on a number of tracks.  Again, he was primarily responsible for the arrangements and production.

On 20/20, he retreated some, but still was a writer on 5 of the tracks.  Also, he co-wrote and produced "Break Away" shortly after the album's release, which was a major effort to generate a hit single.

Then on Sunflower, although he relinquished much of the production role to Carl, Steve Desper, Dennis, and Bruce (the last two for their own songs), he still co-wrote or wrote seven of the tracks, had a significant role in arrangements, and is heard vocally on nearly every track (some of them prominently).

Also keep in mind that there are a number of tracks Brian co-wrote, arranged, and cut in the 68-69-70 period but did not release, even though most of them were brought to near completion, such as Soulful Old Man Sunshine, I Just Got My Pay, When Girls Get Together, HELP Is on the Way, Good Time, etc.

It is only after Sunflower that Brian truly recedes into the background of the Beach Boys.  Beginning with Surf's Up, he is heard singing much less often.  His involvement in arrangement and production is almost nil.  He co-wrote three songs on Surf's up (4 if you include Feet), three on CATP, and only 2 on Holland.  (Don't get me wrong, those three are among my favorite albums of all time, my point is strictly about Brian's involvement.)

If you go thru the BBs' studio albums sequentially, listing the # of songs on each where Brian was credited as songwriter, you see the following:

Safari -- 9
USA -- 7
Girl -- 10
LDC -- 7 (excludes previous releases)
SDV2 -- 7
ASL -- 10
Today -- 9
SD/SN -- 10 (excludes Help Me Rhonda)
PS -- 12
Smiley -- 11
Honey -- 9
Friends -- 10
20/20 -- 5
Sunflower -- 7
Surf's Up -- 3
CATP -- 3
Holland -- 3

Does it really look as though Brian's creativity dropped off in 1967?  Or 1968?  I don't think so.  In fact, the drop-off seems most stark after 1970 -- especially when you consider that there was a lot of stuff written and recorded by Brian for the Boys in around 1969 that didn't get released.

Certainly there is no support for the thesis that Brian's creativity  (within the Beach Boys) was decimated by the demise of SMiLE.  Instead, I would date it to a different event that rocked the music world in April 1970 -- the breakup of the Beatles.

I don't think we can overstate the influence competing with the Beatles had on Brian.  Although it was clear in 1967 that the Beatles had won the battle in the eyes of most of the rock world, Brian kept pushing the Beach Boys forward, competing as best he could (making better, more original, more compelling music than the Beatles, but unfortunately less popular and less acclaimed).

Note that almost everything Brian recorded for Sunflower and Landlocked was finished before the Beatles announced their breakup in April 1970, and that it was only after that seminal date that he felt comfortable creating such "out there" and plainly non-commercial tracks as ADITLOAT and Til I Die (two of his most beautiful works, IMHO).  Most of what he contributed to Sunflower, for instance, while not commercially succesful, was certainly sunny and upbeat (note the thematic contrast between This Whole World and Til I Die).

I would submit that it was only after the Beatles broke up that Brian felt he could really withdraw from the Beach Boys and from the attempt, even if it was hopeless, to keep them competing with the Fab Four.  (As it turned out, Carl and Dennis were ready to take up the slack.)

I think that most people today would say that Smile wounded his spirit-but the real spiral into hell happened when Murry died in 1973-it affected both Dennis and Brian very badly...Brian's three year retreat followed

I agree Murry's death was a transformative event for Brian (and Dennis and even Carl).  But Brian had clearly retreated from the band well before that.  His presence is hardly felt on CATP and Holland.

Another Hoffman-esque thread...the BEATLES made Brian drop out from active recording and touring.

We can't forget, he did do Mt. Vernon and Fairway for Holland. He wasn't quite down and out yet, though he was well on his way.

When all this time, I thought it was competition from the Rutles that caused Brian's downfall.

20/20 is more accurately a 3, not a 5 - two of the tracks were Smile recycles, and thus not evidence of any 1968 creativity.

That is certainly true, but by that reasoning Surf's Up drops to a 2, showing the post-1970 drop off more starkly.  Also, despite Brian's limited contribution to 20/20, there was another burst of creativity in 1969 with Break Away, the Landlocked stuff, and then the material that ended up on Sunflower. 

I'm not in any way trying to "blame" the Beatles for anything Brian did or didn't do.  I just noticed that his efforts to contribute material to The Beach Boys declined precipitously at almost the very moment the Beatles broke up.  After that he sang less on the next three Beach Boys albums, had fewer songs on them, and what he did contribute was often more out there, such as ADITLOAT & Til I Die -- and Mt. Vernon is another prime example of that phenomenon.

My other point is that post-SMiLE Brian was really still churning out albums much as he was before -- Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends are all dominated by him in terms of writing, arranging, and production.  The style changed (as did the degree of commercial success), but not the productivity.

"Another Hoffman-esque thread...the BEATLES made Brian drop out from active recording and touring. "    :lol

I've thought about that before. The Beatles breakup is one way to frame it. Or you could look at it as there having been one big creative outburst after the downfall of Smile (maybe still riding some of the creative high, or because he was finally relaxed - he had stopped pressuring himself to be the greatest songwriter in the world), with Smiley Smile -> Wild Honey -> Friends coming one after the other, followed by one last go at it around the time of Sunflower. I think it was more the lack of commercial success that stopped Brian from writing new songs. Supposedly he was crushed by the commercial failure of Sunflower. That's why you see him releasing more of his weirder songs after Sunflower, like "Til I Die", "A Day in the Life of a Tree", and "Mt. Vernon & Fairway". He had given up on commercial prospects and was doing whatever pleased him. The Beatles breaking up might just have been another sign for Brian that 'radioland' just wasn't the same anymore.

What year were his children born?

1968 & 1969... but you might just as well say that England being knocked out of the 1970 World Cup by West Germany contributed to Brian's decline in creativity. I doubt he took much note of either event. Brian contributed heavily to Sunflower (the sessions ran from October 1969 to January 1970), and when that tanked, he basically said "**** it". Well, wouldn't you ?

.
A very good point.  Even after the downfall of SMiLE, the BBs were doing decently on the US charts -- Brian had Heroes & Villains hit #12 in 1967, then Darlin' made #19 in 1968, and Do It Again made #20 also in '68.  He wasn't the Top Ten-generating hit machine he had been, but was still doing respectably on the charts.  Then he really poured a big effort into Break Away and it only reached #63, and he also was very involved in Sunflower and it was a total sales flop in the US.  Those two flops may have really caused him to give up completely on even trying to make hits.  In fact Do It Again is the last song Brian wrote that ever made the US Top Twenty.

urbanite -- Carnie was born 29 April 1968, Wendy 16 October 1969.  The birth of a second child can often mark a true end to youth and can be a real turning point in life (I can attest from experience), so you may be on to something there

Well, England had been very supportive of the BB's music. And when West Germany beat England, Brian was crushed to see the broken spirits of the people who had supported his music so strongly the last couple of years.  He wanted to lift their spirits, but he sank with them instead.

A couple of kids will turn your world upside down, add to that drug use and depression, not a good mix for a troubled person.

Well on 20/20 there are at least four tracks Brian worked on that didn't make the cut. OK only one was original but he was more active then the album may have you believe. Also he did two 45's in 1968 that weren't for the Beach Boys. OK again he didn't write them but he did produce and arrange them. 1969 was a pretty big comeback sustained through much of 1970.  He was more of a group member then leader but his presence was felt strongly and the quality was as good as ever. We also shouldn't forget he was producing Kalinich and Vail plus doing some shows again.

Surf's Up is interesting. Reading Desper's book I was surprised at how much Brian ended up doing. He didn't write too much but except for Student Demonstration Time and maybe Lookin At Tomorrow he is present vocally on every song. He also helped with the instrumentation and (at least on 'Til I Die and ADITLOAT) the production. He wasn't as prominent as before but he was participating. It's the (strong) Ricky and Blondie albums where he first really seems to be only present maybe a third of the time. Spring Brian didn't spend a lot of time on as far as being there daily either, but his work on it made a big difference and was perhaps closer to his heart then the Ricky and Blondie LP's.

So we get down to why this gradual decline happened. Though I agree Brian took the biggest hit in 1973, three events happened that set him up for what happened then. First Smile. Second Murry selling the songs. Third (and this gets overlooked) although he eventually consented and even helped finish it, Surf's Up was used against his wishes. I think that was a major thing that usurped Brian's authority. Until that point his voice was the most influential when it came to the group and after that he wasn't as inclined to work with them. One other thing needs to be mentioned is that Carl pinpointed when Brian's cocaine use became a problem to the So Tough sessions. That explains a lot too.

How long was the homestudio running? Was it in full function till the Holland extravaganza?

Yeah most of So Tough was recorded there as was Spring.

busy doin nothin, for what it's worth, I've thought about your theory several times. And I think it has some merit; how much I don't know. I've read interviews where Brian praised "Let It Be", so he was still, at least, appreciating The Beatles.

Competition was so much of the young Brian Wilson's professional life; that we know. And what group was challenging him more than The Beatles? Actually, I've rarely heard Brian even praise other groups from that era. So, yeah, right up until The Beatles' demise he was probably "feeling it", again I don't what degree.

Another thing that might support your theory is Brian's beloved Phil Spector. Right around that Beatles' breakup, Spector was back on the scene, producing guess who? The solo Beatles (not to mention Let It Be). I don't know who might've been motivating Brian more in 1970, The Beatles, or Spector, but, regardless, Brian's interest still waned. I mean, even Spector having hits didn't snap Brian out of it. So, maybe it was The Beatles at that time, even more than Spector, which would be surprising.

Next someone's gonna say Brian's decline into serious drug abuse in the 80s came from the assassination of John Lennon.

Gotta love these Hoffman threads. :)

Swear to God, if there was a Hoffman poll entitled who has the bigger thumbs, the Beach Boys or the Beatles, the board would be flooded with people making sure the Beatles didn't come second.    ;)

Ok maybe I am ignorent but what are Hoffman polls or threads.

Then I credit the Beatles breakup for Brian writing some of his coolest songs... Till I Die, ADITLOAT, Funky Pretty, MVAF, Rollin Up to Heaven, Marcella, YNAMOHTSA, and of course, Sail on Sailor.


Well put. Never really considered although I think I understand the Surf's Up dilemma.

Once I found out that Brian was on Surf's Up more then what was commonly thought, it basically became clear that something happened between then and So Tough. So yes I think the argument and Carl's comment made sense as to why he pulled back on the two Ricky/Blondie albums. One other thing may be that Desper was gone and he felt less confortable with Moffit.

Re: Surf's Up.

I'd never really thought that much about it before, but imagine that...(even without the drugs and mental situation etc...) this album Smile, that BW ahd been worked passionately on, was canned because of grief from the group.

Then Brian cedes a degree of control to the group and their career goes downhill fast (in their home country). 4 years later, the same guys are begging for one of the most heartfelt songs on the album they hated. They even name the album after it.

That would drive anyone nuts, even just for the "I Told You So" factor.

Brian really withdrew from the band after that, turning to his wife's music, and then after 1973, he retreated from life.

I'm intrigued by the comments about Brian's involvement on Surf's Up.  I haven't read Steve Desper's book, and would very much like to, but to my ears Brian is clearly a lot less audible on Surf's Up than he was on Sunflower.  I don't hear him at all on DGNTW, Long Promised Road, SDT, Feel Flows, or Looking at Tomorrow (5 out of the 10 tracks).  Yes, he is on Feet, but that contribution dates from Landlocked days, doesn't it?  I know some profess to hear his falsetto on Disney Girls, but at most it's for a few lines and the track as a whole sounds like Bruce solo.  Brian apparently did not contribute to the title track except for his already existing vocals from 1966.  That really leaves ADITLOAT and Til I Die (both incredible tracks, to be sure).

Compare that to Sunflower, where he is heard vocally on all seven songs he co-wrote.  More importantly, he sings his traditional falsetto on This Whole World, Add Some Music, Dierdre, All I Wanna Do, Forever, Our Sweet Love, At My Window, and Cool Cool Water.  I would argue that vocally, Brian's falsetto was the sine qua non of his commitment to the Beach Boys -- and it's all over Sunflower but nowhere to be heard on Surf's Up. 

Beyond that, my point was really as much about songwriting as it was about vocals or production.  The fact is that Brian was the principal songwriter behind the Beach Boys through 1970 -- he wrote almost all of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, and Friends, and a majority of Sunflower.  After 1970, he largely checked out as a songwriter for the Beach Boys -- until the 1976 comeback (which I would note, in addition to all the other personal reasons that Brian may have had, did not occur until the Beach Boys' revival as a megagroup on the US charts, as a "worthy" competitor to the Beatles again).


Sheriff -- Some very interesting points.  I hadn't considered the Spector angle before, but I would postulate this about Spector -- Brian saw Spector more as a producing rival than as a songwriting rival, whereas he saw the Beatles (Lennon and McCartney) as songwriting rivals.  Clearly Brian did scale back on his production ambitions after SMiLE (although they were revived somewhat with Sunflower, it would appear).  My point was more that he did not give up on competing as a pop songwriter until the Beatles broke up.  (Notably the Beatles themselves, and pop music in general, moved away from elaborate production after 1967, influenced at least in some small part by the direction Brian took with Smiley Smile and Wild Honey.)


I don't know what they are either.


As I hope my earlier posts made clear, I respect and like the Beatles, but for me they cannot even hold a candle to Brian and the Beach Boys.  I once said I would not trade "Your Summer Dream" for everything the Beatles ever recorded.  I stand by that statement and could substitute several dozen other BB songs for "Your Summer Dream" and still mean it.

We've been arguing about that for years and at the very least, it's debatable.


Their career went downhill because no one in the group, including Brian, was capable of writing top ten hit singles between '67 and... oh, 2009.  :) 


As far as I know, the individuals pushing for the reworking of 'Surf's Up' were, in no particular order:

JACK RIELEY (Manager)
VAN DYKE PARKS (Warner A&R)
CARL WILSON (Band member)

We don't know if Brian in '71 thought that the band 'hated Smile'. But he surely knew who was begging for one of his most heartfelt songs, to give an extra spark to next album. It wasn't Dennis, Mike, Al or Bruce.


Yeah, the 'Surf's Up' single bombed and he hasn't socialized a lot with Rieley or Parks in the last three decades and a half. Those bastards.


I guess he just was having a lazy time with cocaine and the sorts. Let's give the guy a break, he had been working a lot in the last ten years.

This is an interesting idea that I had not thought of before.  The three albums that followed Sunflower (Surf's Up, So Tough, and Holland), where Brian's falsetto is obviously lacking, are the albums where the Beach Boys were viewed as returning to "hip"; not to mention these albums sold better (I think) than Sunflower (Brian's last great effort as semi-leader).  While a lot of this is undoubtedly due to their improved live shows, they still gravitated towards a more hip sound.  Maybe Brian realized that his signature sound (falsetto voice) wasn't needed or wanted by the public anymore, he didn't perform live, Desper was gone, and others were producing and writing....so f**k it and just give up.   Add coke indulgence and paranoia, topped with Murry's passing, excessive smoking to sound like Randy Newman (i.e. hip and masculine) and it was all over.....well the old Brian anyhow. :smokin+ :3d= :(

"Swear to God, if there was a Hoffman poll entitled who has the bigger thumbs, the Beach Boys or the Beatles, the board would be flooded with people making sure the Beatles didn't come second.    "

Yeah, but then you'd canned by a 'Gort', which, for those who don't know, is an adult huiman being who has the power to suck and blow at the same time!

Some really good thoughts here and new information to me.  I love when some of the history comes in for closer analysis.

I think for Brian it was a drip-drip-drip effect.  Slowly your interest and will to do it fades with each bit of negative reinforcement.  SMiLE was the biggest one, but there was Murray's sale of Sea of Tunes in '69, SUNFLOWER's failure in '70, and Murray's death in '73.  Plus the escalating drug use.  All one big feedback loop.

Something to keep in mind about Brian's involvement in SURF'S UP rather than SUNFLOWER is it is a lot less trouble to come in and sing on a song or maybe play a little keyboards than it is to write and/or produce something.  Brian may well have pulled back from the hard work but still come in to lend a hand on what was going on.  He lived there, after all, and he may not have wanted to fully cut ties with the group at that point (or they may have cajoled him into contributing, or a little of both).  So you can see a tapering off:  writing, singing, producing on SUNFLOWER, less work-intensive contributions to the bulk of SURF'S UP (and I might add he is present vocally on "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again," too), and then just cameo appearances on the next two albums.

Excellent point.  And I also think it's important to note that Brian's contribution in production and arranging went hand in hand with songwriting.  If he didn't write the song, he generally didn't provide the arrangement or produce it (eg, How She Boogalooed It, Bruce's songs).  If he did write, he got deeply involved in the arrangement and production (ADITLOAT, Til I Die).  So a decline in songwriting corresponds to a decline in overall commitment and involvement.

I think SMiLE had little to nothing to do with Brian's retreat, as others note, Brian churned on. I suppose he retreated, like many composer/bands when he realized his season of most popularity with the record buying public was in the past.

Well one point I should make is that Brian was in full charge in 1967 and I honestly don't think the other guys had the power to cancel Smile. ALl the cognent evidence I have heard points to the final decsion as Brian's. In my book I will reveal more about why Brian freaked about using Surf's Up as opposed to say Cabinessence. I will say it was down to the song more then Smile itself.

'Don't Go Near The Water" Brian is heard doing the high part at the end. "Long Promised Road" Brian does the "down down down" and the "bah bah bah bah" vocals. Not falsetto in his normal tone. "Feel Flows" Brian does the "White Puffs" lines fairly high in his register. "Disney Girls" is Brian on the high part and there is a home movie floating around from 1990 where he and Bruce discuss it and Brian disastrously attempts it. I think the big difference on SU is that unlike Sunflower Brian did little of the vocal arranging. He is there but it sounds different because Carl, Al, and Bruce didn't go for the Brian Wilson sound.

I think you have a great handle on the situation.

Yes, it was ultimately Brian's decision, but that decision came because his already fragile state of mind had all the pressure of various people coming down on him over the music, Van Dyke Parks leaving the project, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I don't think that Brian's withdrawl following Sunflower caused the group to go downhill. When Carl became the producer and Reiley the manager, along with the stage presenence and sound of Ricky and Blondie, the BBs had become as 'hip' (not comercial) as they had ever been since GV. Only to be ruined by the commercial success of ES.

I think that a change in leadership was the best thing for the BBs at that time. Up until SU, the BBs were still waiting for Brian to call the shots. Finally Carl stepped up, because he realised that Brian was no longer willing. Dennis might have been better then Carl for the job, but I'm not so sure that was a job that Dennis wanted, nor Mike and co.

While I do agree that someone evenetually had to step up in order to take charge of the group, I feel that Bruce Johnston was right when he stated that "the whole magic pulled back" as soon as Brian more or less left the group after Sunflower and his few but stunning contributions to the Surf's Up album. The way Carl envisioned The Beach Boys was admirable in its very own right and I do appreciate the whole of Holland in particular, but still I'd probably much rather listen to Brian's quirky 15 Big Ones remake of Chapel Of Love than Leaving This Town if I really had to choose.

Wow, I really disagree with that.  Brian was the greatest, no doubt, but I really love Leaving This Town and I think the two Ricky/Blondie albums are incredible (in a different way from the BBs earlier work).  15BO is the one Beach Boys album prior to Dennis's death that I genuinely don't like.  It has two great moments, in my opinion -- It's OK and Had to Phone Ya.  Otherwise, yikes.  As a Beach Boys fanatic, I am truly ashamed of Rock and Roll Music.  It's an absolute embarrassment.  "Leaving This Town," I am very proud of (and find quite moving).

If you want to talk about inner band conflicts that affected Bri- the BBs clearly had a falling out with him in the fall of 1970 when they went, apparently behind his back, and asked Terry Jacks to produce "Seasons in the Sun".  The first recording session for this-with Brian present- was apparently quite an unpleasant experience.  Brian was by most accounts-pretty upset.  There is no doubt-it showed him-rightly or wrongly-that the band had lost confidence in him as a producer and were eager to try working with someone else who might help them gain commercial success-I think those sessions were pretty important....in  causing the situation to deteriorate. Those as usual with the BBs, I wouldn't be surprised if they never reall talked about it after that or worked to resolve the tension...Seems to me that the band always suffered from lack of communication

I guess the Seasons in the Sun session may have something to do with it, I never thought about that before.  He did do the Whisky gig and My Solution right after it, but it along with the other incidents mentioned probably played a role.

I'll never forget an interview with Jacks where he said the BB session was a mess--Mike Love was on a watermelon fast and Brian kept wanting to get ahold of the session tapes...

That's funny I think Mike was more troubled then Brian in 1970. I mean it Brian had some major episodes later, but I don't think he had anything as severe as what Mike went through at that point.

MBE - when is your book coming out?  I'm looking forward to it.

What was the duration of Mike's problems in 1970? Days, weeks, longer?

Nevermind that, what were the problems? And has he spoke about it? Was it related to drugs? Or his TM practice? Existential crisis or a loony episode? I must know dammit.

I thought it was the failure of Ol' Man River that made Brian stop caring.

Well I hope to have a final manuscript done this year. Perhaps next spring or summer would be the best time, depends on how long the printing process takes etc.