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Title: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Thunderfingers75 on March 12, 2009, 08:03:08 AM Not much info about him other than the old interview from the Pet Sounds list. Did he return to advertising for good or did he work with any other artists?
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: dogear on March 12, 2009, 11:08:40 AM wrote a couple of tunes with Roger Nichols, released on his LP:
Roger Nichols and the Small Circle Of Friends A&M 4139 (1967) nice album especially "Don't take Your Time" which was arranged by Bob Thompson who shared arranging credits with Nick de Caro on the LP (it was reissued in CD by the British label Rev-Ola some year ago). Even Van Dyke Parks gets a mention on the jacket as "Morale Booster". Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Thunderfingers75 on March 12, 2009, 11:13:28 AM I'm really surprised that TA didnt go on as a lyricist. I know that Pet Sounds wasnt a huge success at the time but it seems like anyone that is picked by Brian Wilson would have been sought by others. Thanks for the info on the Roger Nichols album.Swingin sixties indeed. I'll keep an eye out for this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNos5dhZ3K4 Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: GoodToMyBaby on March 12, 2009, 12:26:07 PM He wrote some new songs with Brian in the mid 90s.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: juggler on March 12, 2009, 12:37:14 PM He did return to advertising... at least for a while. I believe that he was in the business of writing jingles for TV commercials. There was a great story about how Tony was commissioned to write a jingle for Crocker Bank. However, due to an accidental injury, Tony asked Roger Nichols and Paul Williams if they could take over the project. They obliged and ended up writing the jingle... a little song called "We've Only Just Begun."
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Thunderfingers75 on March 12, 2009, 02:01:31 PM He wrote some new songs with Brian in the mid 90s. Did any of that material end up on an album? Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: SG7 on March 12, 2009, 02:33:59 PM He wrote some new songs with Brian in the mid 90s. Did any of that material end up on an album? This isn't Love is one of them I believe. (the lyrics of it) Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: c-man on March 12, 2009, 04:18:21 PM He wrote some new songs with Brian in the mid 90s. Did any of that material end up on an album? This isn't Love is one of them I believe. (the lyrics of it) Yep (on "Live At The Roxy"). Also, "Everything I Need" on the Carnie & Wendy Wilson album. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: JeffRetro on March 12, 2009, 04:56:25 PM Asher cowrote a couple songs used in the foiuth and last season of "The Partridge Family," "How Long Is Too Long," wirtten with sessions singer Tom Bahler and included on the final Partridge Family LP BULLETIN BOARD" (just reissued by Collector's Choice), and "When Love's Talked About," written with producer Wes Farrell and vocal arranger/session singer John Bahler. "When Love's Talked About" was never released on vinyl (or CD), but it's now available in its original televsion context on THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY: THE COMPLETE FOURTH SEASON DVD set.
Brothers John and Tom Bahler sang on tons of L.A. sessions in the 60's and 70's and were memberx of The Love Generation in the late 60's, whose harmony-filled sunshine pop is definitely worth checking out! Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 12, 2009, 05:36:41 PM I wasn't knocked out by the songs he did with Brian in the 90's. Still on Pet Sounds he really did click with Brian in a unforgettable way.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Christian on March 13, 2009, 11:38:55 AM wrote a couple of tunes with Roger Nichols, released on his LP: Roger Nichols and the Small Circle Of Friends A&M 4139 (1967) Roger Nichols and Tony Asher also had songs covered by other artists: "Always You" - American Breed (on Acta) and The Sundowners (on Decca) "Don´t Take Your Time" - The Match (on RCA) "Can I Go" - The Collage (on Smash) All worth seeking out. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: c-man on March 13, 2009, 12:05:38 PM I wasn't knocked out by the songs he did with Brian in the 90's. Still on Pet Sounds he really did click with Brian in a unforgettable way. That's because during their mid-'60s collaboration, Brian was in a certain frame-of-mind that steered their conversations in particular directions (his obsession with Marilyn, his obsession with her sisters, his fondness of girls with long hair, his fears of growing up, and his feelings of alienation and of not being "of these times"). Tony then crafted lyrics that expressed these topics. I doubt their pre-lyric writing conversations in the mid-'90s were anywhere near as deep... Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: TdHabib on March 13, 2009, 12:34:10 PM I wasn't knocked out by the songs he did with Brian in the 90's. Still on Pet Sounds he really did click with Brian in a unforgettable way. That's because during their mid-'60s collaboration, Brian was in a certain frame-of-mind that steered their conversations in particular directions (his obsession with Marilyn, his obsession with her sisters, his fondness of girls with long hair, his fears of growing up, and his feelings of alienation and of not being "of these times"). Tony then crafted lyrics that expressed these topics. I doubt their pre-lyric writing conversations in the mid-'90s were anywhere near as deep... Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sam_BFC on March 13, 2009, 01:43:12 PM I like both songs and would love to hear them with real fully-realised good production :)
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 13, 2009, 07:54:06 PM I wasn't knocked out by the songs he did with Brian in the 90's. Still on Pet Sounds he really did click with Brian in a unforgettable way. That's because during their mid-'60s collaboration, Brian was in a certain frame-of-mind that steered their conversations in particular directions (his obsession with Marilyn, his obsession with her sisters, his fondness of girls with long hair, his fears of growing up, and his feelings of alienation and of not being "of these times"). Tony then crafted lyrics that expressed these topics. I doubt their pre-lyric writing conversations in the mid-'90s were anywhere near as deep... Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: TdHabib on March 13, 2009, 09:30:12 PM I wasn't knocked out by the songs he did with Brian in the 90's. Still on Pet Sounds he really did click with Brian in a unforgettable way. That's because during their mid-'60s collaboration, Brian was in a certain frame-of-mind that steered their conversations in particular directions (his obsession with Marilyn, his obsession with her sisters, his fondness of girls with long hair, his fears of growing up, and his feelings of alienation and of not being "of these times"). Tony then crafted lyrics that expressed these topics. I doubt their pre-lyric writing conversations in the mid-'90s were anywhere near as deep... Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 13, 2009, 11:00:48 PM I think I have it somewhere I'll have to play it again. Sounds a lot better.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: juggler on March 14, 2009, 01:25:35 AM Hal Blaine's thoughts on 'Everything I Need'...
Quote HB: Well not too long ago, that we did this song, “Everything I Need,” with his two daughters, and he called me to contract, saying to “get the guys together.” This was about two and a half, three years ago? we did this beautiful record with Wendy and Carnie, and Brian playing piano. We just had an incredible day recording. Then three or four days later he called me. I got all the strings together and we did the string overdub. I said, “Brian, I have a hunch that this could be record of the year! And I hope it is because I’d love to have nine, instead of eight.” And we laughed about that, and Wendy and Carnie, they were just sweethearts you know, they showed a lot of love for me. Then I get a call from this guy who’s producing him now, it was just a work call at A & M for Brian Wilson. I thought, ok, whatever, so I go in and here’s Brian, Wendy, Carnie, and their producer. They said, “We’re gonna play that song you that you guys just did, ‘Everything I Need’.” I said,oh, man, I loved that song! And they played it. and it was gorgeous, really gorgeous. I said, “Jesus, I love that song!” And I sincerely meant that. The producer told me that he’d like for me to do some more drum fills and I said, “Really!” he said "well do you feel like you want to, or could?" and I said, if it was me [doing the drum fills] I wouldn’t touch the record -I think it could go on the air just like that tomorrow and be a major hit. The girls said "you know? we feel the same way, it's absolutely beautiful" I told them that their vocals were all gorgeous, but I'm talking about the general picture of the track, and the strings, and everybody had done such a beautiful job . . . So [the producer] says “We thought that was the way you did records with Brian. You’d come in a week or two later and do some more stuff . . .” I told him that I'd be happy to do that for you, but that I didn't think it needed anything else, but, whatever you want. “Yeah,just play, and let's do some fills” All of a sudden it became a fucking drum solo, so I told them, “Look, I’ll do whatever you want.” And I did it, you know of course, that was the end of it. And then Brian sent me the record three months later and I couldn’t believe it was the same song or the same record. It was terrible. SE: Really? HB: It was a piece of sh*t! This guy, whoever he was, the producer, Maybe Brian would talk about some of the wood block sounds and some of the sounds I used to do, the whole thing was covered with percussion. It went click, boom, bang, clack, boom, bing . . . I couldn’t believe what I was hearing! Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Fall Breaks on March 14, 2009, 04:05:18 AM Hal Blaine's thoughts on 'Everything I Need'... Quote HB: Well not too long ago, that we did this song, “Everything I Need,” with his two daughters, and he called me to contract, saying to “get the guys together.” This was about two and a half, three years ago? we did this beautiful record with Wendy and Carnie, and Brian playing piano. We just had an incredible day recording. Then three or four days later he called me. I got all the strings together and we did the string overdub. I said, “Brian, I have a hunch that this could be record of the year! And I hope it is because I’d love to have nine, instead of eight.” And we laughed about that, and Wendy and Carnie, they were just sweethearts you know, they showed a lot of love for me. Then I get a call from this guy who’s producing him now, it was just a work call at A & M for Brian Wilson. I thought, ok, whatever, so I go in and here’s Brian, Wendy, Carnie, and their producer. They said, “We’re gonna play that song you that you guys just did, ‘Everything I Need’.” I said,oh, man, I loved that song! And they played it. and it was gorgeous, really gorgeous. I said, “Jesus, I love that song!” And I sincerely meant that. The producer told me that he’d like for me to do some more drum fills and I said, “Really!” he said "well do you feel like you want to, or could?" and I said, if it was me [doing the drum fills] I wouldn’t touch the record -I think it could go on the air just like that tomorrow and be a major hit. The girls said "you know? we feel the same way, it's absolutely beautiful" I told them that their vocals were all gorgeous, but I'm talking about the general picture of the track, and the strings, and everybody had done such a beautiful job . . . So [the producer] says “We thought that was the way you did records with Brian. You’d come in a week or two later and do some more stuff . . .” I told him that I'd be happy to do that for you, but that I didn't think it needed anything else, but, whatever you want. “Yeah,just play, and let's do some fills” All of a sudden it became a friggin' drum solo, so I told them, “Look, I’ll do whatever you want.” And I did it, you know of course, that was the end of it. And then Brian sent me the record three months later and I couldn’t believe it was the same song or the same record. It was terrible. SE: Really? HB: It was a piece of merda! This guy, whoever he was, the producer, Maybe Brian would talk about some of the wood block sounds and some of the sounds I used to do, the whole thing was covered with percussion. It went click, boom, bang, clack, boom, bing . . . I couldn’t believe what I was hearing! And the early version that circulates - is that the one that Hal Blaine heard and liked? Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: TdHabib on March 14, 2009, 10:35:44 AM I also remember a quote from Hal that said something very close to: "he [Joe Thomas] turned a beautiful, organic production into an ice cream cone."
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 14, 2009, 10:53:08 AM And, of course, Brian has no responsibility for it....
I guess I like everything Brian and Tony did together. Does anybody find it a little, I don't know, UNUSUAL, that two people who collaborated on arguably the greatest album ever, never reunited to record another one. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: TdHabib on March 14, 2009, 04:05:02 PM And, of course, Brian has no responsibility for it.... In a way, they were going to--I know that the album The Wilsons was originally planned to be a sequel of sorts to Pet Sounds--but it ended up kinda here and there.I guess I like everything Brian and Tony did together. Does anybody find it a little, I don't know, UNUSUAL, that two people who collaborated on arguably the greatest album ever, never reunited to record another one. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: the captain on March 14, 2009, 04:17:25 PM Does anybody find it a little, I don't know, UNUSUAL, that two people who collaborated on arguably the greatest album ever, never reunited to record another one. Honestly, I don't--at least, not for Brian Wilson. It doesn't seem much different than his streaks with Roger Christian, Gary Usher, Van Dyke Parks or Andy Paley, for example. Yes, the Asher songs were all on one album--a great album--but otherwise there isn't much of a difference, is there? Wilson works with someone for a while, then stops. I won't pretend to know why, whether it's personal, musical or what. But that has almost always been how it works with him (Mike Love being the exception).Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: juggler on March 15, 2009, 12:19:07 AM But that has almost always been how it works with him (Mike Love being the exception). And he hasn't even really done any significant writing with Mike in what -- 25 or 30 years? I think that they did briefly write together in 1995 (The 'Baywatch Nights' sessions?), but nothing really came of it.Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: ESQ Editor on March 15, 2009, 06:18:29 AM I conducted a pretty interesting on camera interview with Tony back in May of 2005, he went into all sorts of detail on Pet Sounds, Brian, etc. Chris Allen and I are readying it for a Fall release… Very interesting. We've just finsihed our Van Dyke Parks DVD. Visit endlessskyvideo.blogspot.com and check out the Dean Torrence and Wondermints volumes. Van Dyke's is very cool; it's not listed yet, but it's available. PLUG! PLUG!
These DVDs are very insightful. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on March 15, 2009, 11:32:50 AM I may say something that is sacreligious here, but is only my opinion. Tony's lyrics are solid, but no better then what Mike was capable of doing. Songs like Warmth of the Sun, Kiss Me Baby, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up and Good Vibrations were every bit as good as anything on Pet Sounds lyrically. Either Mike was unwilling to go that route for an intire album after Today was a dissapointment, or Brian just didn't want to work with him anymore.
Now Van Dyke is a different story. His poetry blew them all away. Having said that, Tony Asher's lyrics were good. But no better then what they had done before. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Autotune on March 15, 2009, 12:10:30 PM I agree that Asher's and Love's crafts were not that different. Asher's lyirics for PS sound Mike-Lovish to these ears.
Regarding Van Dyke: no one will argue his uniqueness, his originality, his mastering of pun and rhyme, even his musical abilities... also, the fact that he was the man of the hour for Brian during a very special period. But I will exert my right not to be very enthusiastic about his lyrics, and find them to be -at times, at least- a patchwork of over-pretentiousness on Brian's music. Perhaps that very lyrical pretentiousness triggered some of Brian's better tunes, but cryptic does not equal good or effective. And sometimes it seems like Van Dyke's lyrics are to BB fans their share of poetry, who like to feel importat because they dig those cryptic lyrics. VDP's a quirky pop lyricist, not a great poet. By the way, the great http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/vaults.html lists a number of other "recent" Wilson - Ahser compositions: Case For A Song, No Sad Story, Right Before Your Eyes, Rock And Roll Express. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Bicyclerider on March 15, 2009, 12:40:11 PM I agree that Asher's and Love's crafts were not that different. Asher's lyirics for PS sound Mike-Lovish to these ears. Regarding Van Dyke: no one will argue his uniqueness, his originality, his mastering of pun and rhyme, even his musical abilities... also, the fact that he was the man of the hour for Brian during a very special period. But I will exert my right not to be very enthusiastic about his lyrics, and find them to be -at times, at least- a patchwork of over-pretentiousness on Brian's music. Perhaps that very lyrical pretentiousness triggered some of Brian's better tunes, but cryptic does not equal good or effective. And sometimes it seems like Van Dyke's lyrics are to BB fans their share of poetry, who like to feel importat because they dig those cryptic lyrics. VDP's a quirky pop lyricist, not a great poet. I disagree that Asher's lyrics are Mike Love-ish, although I will of course concede that Mike has written lyrics of equal quality to Asher's - and more of them. But Mike would never have written lyrics like I Just Wasn't Made for These Times (even Asher had a hard time with that lyric, he didn't relate to them at all), That's Not Me, God Only Knows, and Caroline No. Mike would have said all of them were too melancholy and "downers" (like he said with 'Til I Die later) and would have tried to put some optimism in them, which was not where Brian's head was at. The cool thing about Asher is that, unlike Mike, he was basically a stranger and Brian was able to open up to him about his obsessions/fantasies/fears without worrying about them being shoved back into his face at a later date, or being shared with the rest of the group. Asher was able to use their conversations to really put Brian's state of mind and feelings into the songs, in a way few other Brian collaborators have. The lyrics really capture Brian's emotional state and mood at a certain point in time. As for Van Dyke, I can understand how many (including Mike Love) would not care for his lyrics, but I feel the music drove the lyrcs rather than the other way around. Brian was into spirituality, drugs, mind games and jumping around from one enthusiastic hobby to the next (telescopes, health food, water sounds, hamburgers, pool, swimming) with a rapidity akin to today's ADHD. His music, short bits jumping from one to the next, often discordant, reflects that, and the lyrics do too. Van was definitely under the influence of Dylan as well as other pschotropic drugs, but could still write a fairly straightforward lyric like Wind Chimes and a mostly understandable one like Wonderful. Brian always talks about the influence of Rubber Soul, but I have to wonder about the influence of Revolver (August 66) on Brian's musical direction - the fact that Lennon and McCartney were becoming more oblique with their lyrics like Tomorrow Never Knows, And Your Bird Can Sing, She Said She Said, and Eleanor Rigby may have spurred Brian's competitive drive to make his lyrics more "important" and obscure. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 15, 2009, 01:12:48 PM (talking to myself) I wanna make sure that I express this properly....
I like Van Dyke Parks' SMiLE lyrics, I appreciate them, and I'm glad he collaborated with Brian on SMiLE. Brian deserved to be able to create "art" instead of catchy pop songs (which are also "art" BTW, but you know what I mean). That being said, I know I would've been like Mike Love and NOT appreciated them in 1966. And, I will give the primary example: "Surf's Up". Oh, I love the song; the melody, arrangement, and Brian's vocal (regardless of what HE says) are spectacular. But, that being said, the song itself does not "touch" me like some of Brian's other classics - i.e. "Caroline, No", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "Don't Worry, Baby", or even "All Summer Long". Not to sound like a simpleton or a graduate of the Mike Love school of lyric writing, but I can't relate to much of "Surf's Up" - lyrically. Oh, I know what the words mean, I've read the translation! But, there are times when I'm listening to the track, sometimes just the instrumental track, and think, "I wish this was a love song or something, at least a subject that would touch me MORE". I sometimes feel that Brian wasted such a great vocal (I know that sounds extreme), but "columnated ruins domino" just doesn't get to me the way - "What matters to me is how I can be to just one girl", or even "Late at night I think about the love of this whole world". Do I sound like Mike Love? Anyway, I'm glad we have SMiLE, and "Surf's Up", and Van Dyke's lyrics, but I don't put a blanket on all of the words as being effective - to me anyway.... Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Bicyclerider on March 15, 2009, 01:52:30 PM (talking to myself) I wanna make sure that I express this properly.... I like Van Dyke Parks' SMiLE lyrics, I appreciate them, and I'm glad he collaborated with Brian on SMiLE. Brian deserved to be able to create "art" instead of catchy pop songs (which are also "art" BTW, but you know what I mean). Surf's Up music conveys feeling and emotion - the lyrics on the whole do not, they are cerebral and about concepts rather than people and their feelings ("I" only appears twice in the song - it, like many of the songs, are "third person" songs). Ditto Worms, Cabinessence, et al. So I get what you're saying. The discordance at times between the music and the lyrics probably was one of the reasons Brian finally abandoned the project (the Goodbye Surfing, Hello God article where he talks about forgetting the lyrics, the music is the message of what he was trying to convey). But I still feel the lyrics do fit with the music of Worms and Cabinessence and Wind Chimes and Wonderful and Heroes, where the puns and jumps and turns of the lyrics reflect the jumps and juxtapositions and surprises of the music. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: TdHabib on March 15, 2009, 04:08:06 PM I have to disagree at least personally--"Surf's Up" solo at the sandbox I have more of an emotional connection to than 95% of Brian's other songs. I know that this may be the incorrect translation but I always associate it both with Old England, the maestro conducting an orchestra OR the changing times, Vietnam war...whatever fits my mood. It's partly the way Brian sings them--"Columnated Ruins Domino" is just three words but could knock a grown man to the floor sung in Brian's register. Yes, they are diffuse and abtsract, but they "move" me at least. But hey I'm weird, I literally shed a tear the first time I heard "A Day in the Life of a Tree" because I was sure it was a meatphor for Brian's life.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: mikeyj on March 15, 2009, 05:13:54 PM Songs like Warmth of the Sun, Kiss Me Baby, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up and Good Vibrations were every bit as good as anything on Pet Sounds lyrically. Mike didn't write Don't Worry, Baby. That was Roger Christian. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on March 15, 2009, 05:24:59 PM Songs like Warmth of the Sun, Kiss Me Baby, Don't Worry Baby, When I Grow Up and Good Vibrations were every bit as good as anything on Pet Sounds lyrically. Mike didn't write Don't Worry, Baby. That was Roger Christian. My mistake Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on March 15, 2009, 05:30:02 PM I didn't mean that Van Dyke's lyrics were better, just different enough from Mike. I guess Tony Asher was willing to write what Brian was feeling and am sure he was just happy to be there. Mike would want to have his own imput and perspective. But I believe Mike and Brian were capable of writing all the lyrics on Pet Sounds. But not the lyrics of Smile except for Wind Chimes, Vegatables and a few others.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 15, 2009, 11:53:19 PM I think the reason Tony and Brian didn't write together again for 30 years is that Tony looked down on him as a person. Read what he said to Nick Kent and Steven Gaines. Maybe he's changed his tune since then (it seems that way) but he didn't seem to like Brian as a person."A genius musician but an amateur human being" was his quote.
On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode. Smile Mike could have never done. I always thought Van Dyke's lyrics were witty and interesting. They don't personally touch me, but they are properly ornamental. In other words they sound good the way they are performed. To sum it up..because Smile is so beautifully constructed it does moves me, but not the words themselves. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: hypehat on March 16, 2009, 01:25:56 PM i think Cabin Essence, apart from maybe the cornfield bit, is a very emotionally resonant song... more so than almost anything on Smile, except Wind Chimes and Sunny Down Snuff, at least for me.
it's all a question of how you want to say it - However good Todays lyrics are (and they're great), Pet Sounds is just very sophisticated in comparison. I mean, he doesn't say 'baby' or just 'I love you', they're more elaborate statements. And same with Van Dyke. You could write 'Kiss Me Baby' or 'nestle in a kiss below there' and it's the same thing, but one is definitely more interesting. And as for Surfs Up... well that can slay me. It's down to Brian's delivery, i know, but he's singing Van's words all the same, and the two are so completely linked.... Seriously, what else would you put in place of 'Columnated Ruins Domino'? It fits so totally. Smile just wouldn't be the same if it was Brian singing ' i love you' a bunch of times, would it? It might have been released, for one thing :lol Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Autotune on March 16, 2009, 02:56:58 PM it's all a question of how you want to say it - However good Todays lyrics are (and they're great), Pet Sounds is just very sophisticated in comparison. I mean, he doesn't say 'baby' or just 'I love you', they're more elaborate statements. Uhm.. "it starts with just a little glance now right away you're thinkin' 'bout romance now" see, that Mike-Lovish to me, and so are most if not all of the lyrics... As capable as Asher was, I think that it was simply Brian wanting to collaborate with a paid employee who would not argue him, would put up with him, and would write exactly what he wanted. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Bicyclerider on March 16, 2009, 03:40:19 PM I think the reason Tony and Brian didn't write together again for 30 years is that Tony looked down on him as a person. Read what he said to Nick Kent and Steven Gaines. Maybe he's changed his tune since then (it seems that way) but he didn't seem to like Brian as a person."A genius musician but an amateur human being" was his quote. Tony Asher back in 1966 was a fairly conservative, uptight, "normal" guy. Brian's sordid confessions of feeling out of place and lonely, not relating to people, being attracted to his wife's youngest sister, and the other sister, he could not relate to at all. Remember, this is many decades before tabloid journalism, Maury and Springer, this to him was abnormal and immature. Nowadays Brian's confessions would be boring next to what we are exposed to on TV every day, but back then Tony couldn't relate to them at all. The fact that they found their way into the lyrics, expressed beautifully, is a testament to Tony's skill with words and his ability to put aside his own preconceptions and biases and try to funnel Brian's moods and feelings, as foreign as they seemed to him. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 16, 2009, 03:49:36 PM I always thought one of the main reasons Brian used Asher instead of Mike Love was because of availability. Wasn't it part of Brian's "plan" when he left the road that he would stay home and record while the guys were touring. Well, I know the guys were extremely busy during that time, so, maybe just logistically, Mike wasn't available when Brian needed to record. With Capitol's demand for records at that time, it's quite possible that Brian couldn't wait. I'm sure Mike Love would have a different opinion on that....
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 16, 2009, 04:53:57 PM I think the reason Tony and Brian didn't write together again for 30 years is that Tony looked down on him as a person. Read what he said to Nick Kent and Steven Gaines. Maybe he's changed his tune since then (it seems that way) but he didn't seem to like Brian as a person."A genius musician but an amateur human being" was his quote. Tony Asher back in 1966 was a fairly conservative, uptight, "normal" guy. Brian's sordid confessions of feeling out of place and lonely, not relating to people, being attracted to his wife's youngest sister, and the other sister, he could not relate to at all. Remember, this is many decades before tabloid journalism, Maury and Springer, this to him was abnormal and immature. Nowadays Brian's confessions would be boring next to what we are exposed to on TV every day, but back then Tony couldn't relate to them at all. The fact that they found their way into the lyrics, expressed beautifully, is a testament to Tony's skill with words and his ability to put aside his own preconceptions and biases and try to funnel Brian's moods and feelings, as foreign as they seemed to him. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Amy B. on March 16, 2009, 05:32:33 PM I think Tony was shocked at Brian's naivete and what he perceived to be his lack of sophistication. And from a class perspective, I think Tony was farther up the ladder, whereas Brian had more of a blue collar sensibility. I remember Tony criticizing Brian's "lack of taste" in one interview, whether it was the decor of the house, Brian's clothes, or whatever. He didn't buy into the "Brian-as-intellectual" thing at all, either. But since he was an ad guy, he was used to writing made-to-order material, right? And he was Brian's hired gun, so he conveyed Brian's feelings in the lyrics. "Sometimes I feel very sad." That's so simple, so Brian.
I'm sure Tony respected Brian's musical ability, but he never seemed as in awe of it as Van Dyke. Tony said Brian would sometimes change a note or two for a lyric (nothing wrong there-- George Gershwin did it for Ira), whereas Van Dyke talked about how the lyrics should always serve the music. Then again, Tony's personality seems more grounded than Van Dyke's. VDP has a sense of magic about him. I guess Marilyn didn't like either one, and neither did Mike. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: the captain on March 16, 2009, 05:37:33 PM Van Dyke's "awe," to be fair, probably ought not be taken at face value. I LOVE the man's music and he's very kind (I mean, what borderline legend responds to emails from every Tom, Dick and Harry?), but he makes humility come off as pompousness.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Chris Brown on March 16, 2009, 06:28:04 PM I always thought one of the main reasons Brian used Asher instead of Mike Love was because of availability. Wasn't it part of Brian's "plan" when he left the road that he would stay home and record while the guys were touring. Well, I know the guys were extremely busy during that time, so, maybe just logistically, Mike wasn't available when Brian needed to record. With Capitol's demand for records at that time, it's quite possible that Brian couldn't wait. I'm sure Mike Love would have a different opinion on that.... I don't know if I buy the availability thing...Brian managed to collaberate with Mike quite a bit after he left the road. From every account I've read, Brian just wanted something different and went with his gut. He was always that way with his collaberators. As far as Mike's capability, I don't doubt at all that he was capable of writing the majority of the lyrics on Pet Sounds. As others have said, however, I don't think that he would have been comfortable writing an album full of "downers" that he couldn't relate to. For every "Warmth of the Sun" and "Kiss Me Baby," there are just as many (if not more) "fun in the sun" type songs. Mike would have challenged Brian on the direction of the songs (like on Smile), and Brian didn't want confrontation. He wanted somebody to listen to his thoughts and translate them into lyrics. A stranger like Tony was much better suited for that role than Mike, I think. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: juggler on March 16, 2009, 06:29:21 PM On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode. Originally, Mike Love was credited as a writer on only two tracks on 'The Beach Boys Today!' (i.e., 'Please Let Me Wonder' and the it-barely-counts 'Bull Session with Big Daddy'). The fact that Mike Love now gets credits on other 'Today' tracks is the result of a legal settlement back in the mid-1990s. Everyone pretty much concedes that Murry screwed Mike out of SOME writing credits (i.e., 'California Girls' being the most egregious example). However, it's important to keep in mind that as a result of the legal settlement, Mike got his name tacked onto a very large number of songs -- and on some of those, such as 'Wouldn't It Be Nice,' his contributions were reportedly minimal. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 16, 2009, 06:41:12 PM That took some guts for Brian to go with Tony Asher. After the trio of All Summer Long, Today, and Summer Days (And Summer Nights) with Mike Love, I'll bet there were a few people who thought, "Tony who - Brian, are you nuts?" No offense intended....
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 16, 2009, 07:10:33 PM On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode. Originally, Mike Love was credited as a writer on only two tracks on 'The Beach Boys Today!' (i.e., 'Please Let Me Wonder' and the it-barely-counts 'Bull Session with Big Daddy'). The fact that Mike Love now gets credits on other 'Today' tracks is the result of a legal settlement back in the mid-1990s. Everyone pretty much concedes that Murry screwed Mike out of SOME writing credits (i.e., 'California Girls' being the most egregious example). However, it's important to keep in mind that as a result of the legal settlement, Mike got his name tacked onto a very large number of songs -- and on some of those, such as 'Wouldn't It Be Nice,' his contributions were reportedly minimal. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: BJL on March 16, 2009, 07:32:34 PM On side 2 of Today Mike proved he could of written Pet Sounds. The question is would he of? Don't Run Away (which he wrote with Bruce for Bruce and Terry) is fully in the Pet Sounds mode. Originally, Mike Love was credited as a writer on only two tracks on 'The Beach Boys Today!' (i.e., 'Please Let Me Wonder' and the it-barely-counts 'Bull Session with Big Daddy'). The fact that Mike Love now gets credits on other 'Today' tracks is the result of a legal settlement back in the mid-1990s. Everyone pretty much concedes that Murry screwed Mike out of SOME writing credits (i.e., 'California Girls' being the most egregious example). However, it's important to keep in mind that as a result of the legal settlement, Mike got his name tacked onto a very large number of songs -- and on some of those, such as 'Wouldn't It Be Nice,' his contributions were reportedly minimal. "There's "Good To My Baby." Brian Wilson is listed as writing it completely, guess who wrote the words? Doctor Love, that's who. "When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)." I participated in that and didn't get a stitch of recognition. "Help Me Rhonda," I wrote, "Since you put me down I've been out doing in my head." That's my fucking line, thank you very much. Things like "Dance Dance Dance," I asked Carl if he wrote any lyrics for the song and he said no. He just came up with the guitar line." And on please Let Me Wonder "I remember wondering about the title. Not relating to the title so great but writing the verses." So that's what we have on that, so far as I know, but what I get from that interview is that if Mike wrote all of a song, he said so, but that a lot of those claims were for a couple of lines, or a lyrical collaboration. I think that if side 2 of Today proves anything, its that Brian could have written the words to pet sounds just about by himself. I just can't imagine Mike Love coming up with In the Back of My Mind or She Knows me Too Well--they just dont feel like Mike Love Lyrics to me. And I think that Brian has proven that, from time to time at least, he could put words together and convey what he was thinking pretty well. Heck, I think Til I Die is one of the most beautiful and effective lyrics ever written by anybody. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: juggler on March 16, 2009, 07:35:58 PM I don't buy this idea that Brian couldn't write lyrics. Only Brian is credited on "This Whole World," and I happen to think that its lyrics are no worse than a lot of the stuff from the mid-'60s that he was supposedly incapable of writing alone.
FWIW... Here's Tony Asher's take on WIBN.... Quote Mike recently sued Brian for writing credit to around 30 songs among which was "Wouldn't It Be Nice". What role did Mike have in writing that song? http://surfermoon.com/interviews/asher.htmlNone, whatsoever. As most people know, the Beach Boys were on tour during the writing of that song. During the trial, Mike's attorney asked me how I could be so sure Mike hadn't influenced the writing of that song. "After all, " he speculated, "wasn't Mr. Wilson out of your sight from time to time? Didn't he go to the bathroom, or leave the room periodically for one reason or another? And couldn't he have been taking a phone call from Mr. Love during one of those absences?" These guys get paid big bucks for this kind of absurdity. At any rate, I answered that, while it was true Mr. Love could have called Mr. Wilson on one of those occasions, it was doubtful it had any influence, since "Wouldn't It Be Nice" was one of the few songs I wrote the entire lyric to by myself at home. "Mr. Love did not then," I explained, "and I pray does not now, have my home phone number." So where does Mike's claim come from? Is he just making this stuff up out of some kind of jealousy or rage toward Brian or does he really believe he wrote some of the lyrics to that song? I think he would say that it is based upon things that were added at sessions that could be characterized, I suppose, in the loosest sense of the word, as lyrics. I'm talking about background vocals like the typical "doo-wha's" and "dum-diddies" that occur in many songs, not only from the Beach Boys. Lyrics of that type have always been considered part of the "arrangement" of songs and those supplying them, such as vocal arrangers, have never been given part of the songwriting royalties for such contributions, although I suppose an argument could be made that they should. Actually, I believe that a far stronger argument can be made for giving arrangers royalties so at least part of their compensation would be based upon the success of a record since their arrangement, like the producer's production, is -- in my opinion -- often a real factor in the commercial-ness of the record. But I wouldn't favor giving everyone who ever wrote a "ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong" part of the songwriting credits. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: BJL on March 16, 2009, 07:48:04 PM I've always wondered if some insight into who wrote what could be gleamed from the rewrite of Please Let Me Wonder, (incidentally my favorite song in the universe!) Does anybody know why exactly Brian changed the lyrics? Since he sung it himself the second time, I always sort of assumed Mike wrote the first set, and Brian wrote the second, but of course that's pretty thin evidence.
Just for fun, the first version: Now here we are together this would have been worth waiting forever I always knew i’d feel this way And please forgive my shaking can’t you tell my heart is breaking I’m so afraid of what you’ll say I know this may be the wrong time Its just I’ve loved you such a long time and just loving you won’t make you stay and somehow the truth doesn’t matter when I know my dreams could be shattered so please don’t say what you wanna say. and the second: Now here we are together This would've been worth waiting forever I always knew it'd feel this way And please forgive my shaking Can't you tell my heart is breaking? Can't make myself say what I planned to say I built all my goals around you That some day my love would surround you You'll never know what we've been through For so long I thought about it And now I just can't live without it This beautiful image I have of you The first version really makes the song kind of more blunt: "so please don't say what you want to say" is a subtext of the second version, I feel. On the other hand, the line "you'll never know what we've been through" makes absolutely no sense! How could she not know something that they've both been through? Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 16, 2009, 09:02:24 PM I never said Brian couldn't write lyrics, I said Brian's lyrics were different in tone. Busy Doin Nothin' for instance is pure Brian.
These are really good threads http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,3924.0.html http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5833.0.html Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: hypehat on March 17, 2009, 09:56:19 AM but the meaning of Here Today is almost anti - love... how he's been ruined by this girl and love itself. But the words themselves are a little simplistic, granted ::)
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Bicyclerider on March 17, 2009, 11:28:29 AM On Wouldn't It Be Nice Mike wrote one line - the "good night, baby, sleep tight, baby" at the end.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Ebb and Flow on March 17, 2009, 03:02:24 PM On the other hand, the line "you'll never know what we've been through" makes absolutely no sense! How could she not know something that they've both been through? I always got the sense it was about the narrator finally telling a girl how he feels about her. Building all your goals around someone who has no idea how you feel about them = "You'll never know what we've been through". Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Chris Brown on March 17, 2009, 04:53:12 PM On the other hand, the line "you'll never know what we've been through" makes absolutely no sense! How could she not know something that they've both been through? I always got the sense it was about the narrator finally telling a girl how he feels about her. Building all your goals around someone who has no idea how you feel about them = "You'll never know what we've been through". Yeah that's kinda that view I've always taken...the "we" is more in his head, as in he has thought so much about them being together that they are already "we" in his mind. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 17, 2009, 05:11:25 PM On the other hand, the line "you'll never know what we've been through" makes absolutely no sense! How could she not know something that they've both been through? I always got the sense it was about the narrator finally telling a girl how he feels about her. Building all your goals around someone who has no idea how you feel about them = "You'll never know what we've been through". Yeah that's kinda that view I've always taken...the "we" is more in his head, as in he has thought so much about them being together that they are already "we" in his mind. Yep, and the best line in the song. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Dove Nested Towers on March 18, 2009, 01:39:51 AM (talking to myself) I wanna make sure that I express this properly.... I like Van Dyke Parks' SMiLE lyrics, I appreciate them, and I'm glad he collaborated with Brian on SMiLE. Brian deserved to be able to create "art" instead of catchy pop songs (which are also "art" BTW, but you know what I mean). That being said, I know I would've been like Mike Love and NOT appreciated them in 1966. And, I will give the primary example: "Surf's Up". Oh, I love the song; the melody, arrangement, and Brian's vocal (regardless of what HE says) are spectacular. But, that being said, the song itself does not "touch" me like some of Brian's other classics - i.e. "Caroline, No", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "Don't Worry, Baby", or even "All Summer Long". Not to sound like a simpleton or a graduate of the Mike Love school of lyric writing, but I can't relate to much of "Surf's Up" - lyrically. Oh, I know what the words mean, I've read the translation! But, there are times when I'm listening to the track, sometimes just the instrumental track, and think, "I wish this was a love song or something, at least a subject that would touch me MORE". I sometimes feel that Brian wasted such a great vocal (I know that sounds extreme), but "columnated ruins domino" just doesn't get to me the way - "What matters to me is how I can be to just one girl", or even "Late at night I think about the love of this whole world". Do I sound like Mike Love? Anyway, I'm glad we have SMiLE, and "Surf's Up", and Van Dyke's lyrics, but I don't put a blanket on all of the words as being effective - to me anyway.... Parks' lyrics are tantalizing, oblique and evocative. "Columnated ruins domino" and the rest of the lyrics to "Surf's Up" are of course not literal, although they do have metaphorical and symbolic meanings, but the whole song, to me, exists on almost a different, more delicate, exalted plane of consciousness than normal, and takes me to that place. It's not emotionally "moving" in a conventional sense, but equally thrilling in an abstract, atmospheric way. "Cabinessence" has an ethereal, incredibly yearning, spacy but simultaneously grounded quality that is truly unique. The verse sections especially are tantalizing and hint at an ultimate, comforting, cosmic hominess and compassion. Amazing stuff. "Wonderful" is SO evocative and delicately beautiful, with its imagery of innocent children's games and the discovery of young love. The alchemy that Parks achieved with Brian's melodies was, to me, utterly miraculous and "moving" in a non-literal but completely transcendent way. The "Wonderful/Look /Song For Children/Child is Father of the Man/Surf's Up montage, if it had been completed lyrically and vocally and assembled in '66-'67, assuming it would have come together in that form back then, would have been simply stunning (not that the BWPS version isn't, but vocally and in other intangible ways it's not quite the same). Parks can be a little bit glib and self-consciously cute, and may not be "a great poet" but his Smile lyrics are emotionally evocative in an unusual, hard-to-define sense. They may not be everyone's cup of tea, or move everyone, but they move me in a curious way. Characterizing Parks' lyrics as merely clever but unemotional sells him short, and definitely short- changes the "greater than the sum of its parts" (the parts being pretty damn great) inspiration and magic of what they achieved together, complementing each other perfectly in that short, sweet burst of creative spark, "SMiLE". :) :) :) Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Autotune on March 18, 2009, 10:46:47 AM ... (I mean, what borderline legend responds to emails from every Tom, Dick and Harry?) .... I can attest to that! But it is also interesting that Brian is no more enthusiastic about VDP's music than VDP is about Brian's. BTW I wish I could find the link to a Spanish newspaper interview with VDP about work TLOS. Parks came in very bitter about the experience (my paraphrasis: "I expected this to be a new milestone in our friendship but the whole thing was poisoned by the people around him"). Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: adamghost on March 18, 2009, 03:05:44 PM This is somewhat off the train of thought, but relevant to the topic: Evie Sands once told me she and Tony Asher were mugged when they were walking together back to their cars after a dinner meeting on Ventura Blvd. in the San Fernando Valley in the '80s. A pretty traumatic event, apparently.
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: MBE on March 18, 2009, 07:33:20 PM ... (I mean, what borderline legend responds to emails from every Tom, Dick and Harry?) .... I can attest to that! But it is also interesting that Brian is no more enthusiastic about VDP's music than VDP is about Brian's. BTW I wish I could find the link to a Spanish newspaper interview with VDP about work TLOS. Parks came in very bitter about the experience (my paraphrasis: "I expected this to be a new milestone in our friendship but the whole thing was poisoned by the people around him"). I think there is a pattern with Mike Love, Asher, and Parks in that Brian's personal irresponsibility irks them. I mean he largely made them what they are today, and all have expressed how brilliant his ideas are, but I think there is some ill feeling. I think it boils down to that they all had to work so hard to get something good and Brian does better things with ease. I know Bruce felt the same way to an extent even though he seldom wrote with him. Brian seems to be kind, have a good heart, but is a coward when it comes to confrontation. He always had Murry, Landy, or Melinda to be a buffer for him. I can understand that maybe he isn't strong enough to do unpleasant things, but I equally understand why his behavior can piss off those who do business with him. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 18, 2009, 08:03:01 PM I've always picked up a love/hate vibe there. Mainly Brian's drunken comments at Ringo's birthday, and Van Dyke's somewhat condescending or resentful remarks over the years. At the same time I have seen some great admiration between the two. I think there is a pattern with Mike Love, Asher, and Parks in that Brian's personal irresponsibility irks them. I mean he largely made them what they are today, and all have expressed how brilliant his ideas are, but I think there is some ill feeling. I think it boils down to that they all had to work so hard to get something good and Brian does better things with ease. I know Bruce felt the same way to an extent even though he seldom wrote with him. Brian seems to be kind, have a good heart, but is a coward when it comes to confrontation. He always had Murry, Landy, or Melinda to be a buffer for him. I can understand that maybe he isn't strong enough to do unpleasant things, but I equally understand why his behavior can piss off those who do business with him. Very interesting and I believe accurate post, MBE. I think you could lump ALL of the Beach Boys in that group, too. With Brian first quitting the road, then the dwindling output in the late 60's/early 70's, and, eventually, basically quitting the group, I think they were all, should I say, disappointed. Yes, part of the reason(s) was medical, but there was also some basic quitting or giving up in there, too. I think Van Dyke Parks summed it up well in some interview I read, and I'm paraphrasing, "In 1966, Brian took me in and gave me some money and bought me a car and I'll be eternally grateful to him for that." Or something like that. Is it safe to say all of the Beach Boys (including Mike to some extent, but maybe not Bruce so much) feel the same way? Everything they have is a result of being a Beach Boy. And I don't have to state how much of that is due to Brian's work. As much as they might get frustrated or disappointed with him, there's always that "look what I have because of him" hanging over them. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: Sam_BFC on March 19, 2009, 06:25:05 AM what was said at ringo's birthday?
Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: mikeyj on March 19, 2009, 07:07:32 AM what was said at ringo's birthday? Brian was drunk and basically said VDP "was the biggest butthole" or something to that effect. I'd have to dig it up to remember exactly what he said. Title: Re: Tony Asher after Pet Sounds Post by: phirnis on April 09, 2009, 10:20:56 AM what was said at ringo's birthday? Brian was drunk and basically said VDP "was the biggest butthole" or something to that effect. I'd have to dig it up to remember exactly what he said. If I remember correctly, that very incident was one of the first things I got to hear of Brian Wilson after my initial purchase of Pet Sounds some nine years ago. Unfortunate at best... :-D |