The Smiley Smile Message Board

Okay, so I thought it would be interesting to see who people think Brian's best lyricists were, in order. How about the top three? Here are mine:

1. Van Dyke Parks
2. Mike Love
3. Tony Asher

Also, explain your choices. I'll explain mine soon...

1. Mike Love - established what the Beach Boys were all about and along with Brian created the California mythos as we know and love it!!!!

2. Gary Usher - same as the above to a slightly lesser extent.

3. Tony Asher - Pet Sounds!!!! Need I say more?

1. Van Dyke Parks
2. Tony Asher
3. Mike Love

Rank order: VDP is in a league of his own. Free-form poetry with so many allusions and double-entendres... and yet his subject matter is always clear for everyone to hear. Example: 'Dreams Are Still Born In Hollywood'. Two entirely different meanings, both true all the same.

Tony Asher wrote more down-to-earth lyrics for Pet Sounds but expressed the feelings of the songs in a sublime way. No one could have done it better at that point in time. Example: 'That's Not Me'.

Mike Love was, um, a capable writer of song lines.

Oh, come on!

We'd never have heard of Van Dyke Parks or Tony Asher if it weren't for Mike Love because we'd never have heard of The Beach Boys if there were no Mike Love!

So, the guy who wrote Warmth Of The Sun is merely capable?

I agree with you Erikdavid5000 -- Just like Murry pushing through and pushing down doors, without Mike completing the picture in a critically inmportant area would the band have made it? 

Yes, Brian had the BB's to work with.  But Brian on his own, with other artists during his musical peak when he was exploding with creativity, didn't make it.  I think the band would have found success, they were too good not to, but Mike's lyrics were extremely important early on.

Very true, but that wasn't really the question.  Mike did indeed write some fantastic lyrics for/with Brian.  But like others above, I would rank Van Dyke above him, just for the fact that Van Dyke pushed Brian to do some of his best musical work, and wrote lyrics that are still incredible today.  I love "Warmth of the Sun," but lyrically, songs like "Surf's Up" and "Wonderful" put it to shame, in my opinion.

Tony Asher I would put about on par with Mike.  Tough call there for me.

Tks for that. I read the question as: who is/was the best lyricist (in terms of art), and not as: who pushed Brian into his activities.

1. Van Dyke Parks
2. Tony Asher
3. Andy Paley
4. Gary Usher
5. Roger Christian
6. Bob Norberg
7. Jack Reiley
8. Scott Bennett
9. Tandyn Almer
10. Russ Titleman
11. Mike Love
12. Joe Thomas
13. Eugene Landy
14. Alexandra Morgan

Mike wrote great lyrics but regressed as he got older.  Big Sur is a real gem.

VDP, Asher, and Usher = $0.02

If all I'm addressing is whose words do I like best with the music with which they're paired (not who started it off, who had hits, who led to whatever else, who kept Brian in a drugged stupor and tried to write himself in to the will, who had the nicest beard, whose baseball caps looked good when he went shirtless but with a vest, etc.), I'd probably say 1) VDP, 2) Tony Asher, 3) Mike Love.

From everything I've read about him, and, including that recent Holland documentary which I saw, I don't really like Jack Reiley. But, the funny thing is, I like every song he and Brian were involved with. I would've loved a solo album from Brian from that period 1971-73; he was very creative during that time.

For the record, I understood the question perfectly and answered it honestly!

I think Mike is the best lyrical partner Brian has ever had. I'm not going to sit here and worry about my "hipness" quota and pretend to hate anything non-esoteric, non-heavily symbolic that came from the pen of Mike or anyone else. I love early middle and late period Beach Boys as much as I love Pet Sounds/Smile. If this makes me uncool..... Fine! What the hell are any of us doing spending pecious hours on a Beach Boys message board if such things really matter? ...

I choose not to judge Mike on Summer Of Love alone, just as I won't judge Brian on In My Car alone. Mike is all over the Beach Boys and gave us so many great songs as well as the occasional dud, but he's certainly not alone in that. And if I think he's the best, to declare him the first/most important/most enduring, it's only to reinforce my opinion, no to make excuses for it.

I was joking with the general comments on different people interpreting the question differently. As for hipness, well, I certainly don't worry about that. If I did, I wouldn't choose VDP as my favorite: he's too obviously the "hip" choice, and choosing to work to be hip clearly is the best recipe for failing at hipness. (It's all about the ironic surprise. The hipster answer MIGHT be Mike Love, actually.) I'm not criticizing anyone's choices, and obviously, Love was third on my list. I love a lot of their songs. But I won't pretend that my favorites aren't.

So did the music he was writing lyrics for. ;)

I think we're both wrong in that hipeness doesn't even exist simply because, to be "hip", it all depends on the opinion of others. You can't be hip on an island!

1. Mike Love (despite the negatives, they just "clicked" too many times to ignore)
2. Tony Asher (one AMAZING album; GOK alone might put him on the list)
3. VDP (limited, yet brilliant, work spanning 30+ years)

That's where you're very wrong, and I've got the videotape to prove it.  ;)

let's see it!  :lol

Busted in another lie...  :'(

The songs Jack Rieley wrote with Carl were great. But the ones he wrote with Brian were horrible. Mess of Help to Stand Alone and the end of Funky Pretty are so dumb.

My top five in no particular order are Mike Love, Tony Asher, Van Dyke Parks, Gary Usher, and Roger Christian.

Hey we agree on this one! ;D
Anyways Alex listed the main co-writers and I will re-order his list to my taste plus add the other Beach Boys and Kalinich as they wrote with him too. BTW I think Dennis is the best song writer on this list but he didn't write too much with Brian.

Mike Love
Tony Asher
Van Dyke Parks
Roger Christian
Gary Usher
Jack Reiley
Jan Berry (Usually they had one or more partners but the songs Brian wrote with Jan are great)
Carl
Al
Andy Paley
Scott Bennett
Steve Kalinich
Dennis
Russ Titleman
Bob Norberg
Bruce
Diane
Tandyn Almer
Joe Thomas
Alexandra Morgan
Eugene Landy
 
Except for the last three they all were pretty good.

I really like Mess of Help. And Funky Pretty's lyrics, while I do think they're dumb, are in that dumb-but-cool territory that Mike Love is the master of. Yeah, it's silly words and ideas and catch phrases of the times, boring hippie sh*t ... but it's cool anyway. If you're cosmically conscious you'll see, Pisces lady, indeed.

Brian Wilson & Jack Rieley - So Tough, Bruce

1. Marcella
2. Funky Pretty
3. My Solution
4. You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone
5. A Day In The Life Of A Tree
6. Sail On Sailor
7. Til I Die
8. Sweet Mountain
9. Mt. Vernon & Fairway (A Fairy Tale)

Produced by Brian Wilson, Carl Wilson, & David Sandler

Oh, no, you see, I like the lyrics Mike wrote. But Jack wrote the stupid ones in the second-to-last section of the song, the queen in Copenhagee, the cream of gay Parisee, et cetera.

But those stupid ones are kind of great.

Bob Norberg wrote some of Brian's best early ballads with him. I'd love a compilation of all the demos they must have recorded while living together. Mike's the best, though.

I'm gonna have to agree with Luther, Funky Pretty has some far out lyrics. :3d

I'd say:

1) Mike Love - purely just because of the volume he wrote with Brian and while not all of them are good/great, there is too many good ones to ignore.
2) Tony Asher
3) Van Dyke Parks

In the end I think most of Brian's lyrical partners - excluding the likes of Landy, Joe Thomas etc.. - have been pretty good at writing lyrics that worked with Brian's music.

#3 - never recall anyone claiming the lyrics for this: they sound pure BW to me.

#7 - Jack didn't write the lyric.

#8 - ditto.

I think Mike Love's greatest strengths were his vocals and on stage presence. I don't think Brian needed Mike's lyrics to find commercial success. Sure, Mike wrote most of those early surfing lyrics, but Brian wrote "Surf City" completely without Mike's help, and that's one of the most recognizable songs of the surf music era. "Surfer Girl" was a top ten hit, and Mike had no hand in that. Most of the car songs, like "Little Deuce Coupe", were written without Mike Love, and though Mike wrote the lyrics to "Warmth of the Sun", Brian wrote other songs with similar moods, like "In My Room", without Mike. Don't get me wrong, Love's early lyrics were good in a commercial way, but not necessary.

His cocky, nasally delivery was very important though. Who else within the Beach Boys could've brought that attitude to those songs except Mike Love? "Surfin' USA", for one, wouldn't be the same without Mike's vocals. Brian's and Carl's voice at the time were too 'sweet', Dennis's lead singing wasn't strong enough yet, and Al... well, he's just Al. Nothing he could do about that. Maybe, just maybe, Al could've done it, but he lacked something Mike had in spades - cockiness. And say what you want about how corny Mike was on stage, but at least he brought a lot of personality to their sets. His dance moves, his silly comments, all brought color to their shows. The rest of the band looked as stiff as surf boards in their early performances. Without him, the shows just would've been kind of boring. Sometimes Brian would try to liven things up a bit, but he always seemed a little awkward on stage.

So, in conclusion, I don't really think Mike was that important of a lyrical partner. I'd go with this top three:

1. Tony Asher
2. Van Dyke Parks (I still think Song Cycle had his best lyrics)
3. Mike Love

Articulated completely the way I see it.

Dave was there not Al.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. David rocked, but he was practically a kid when the Beach Boys started. If they made him the lead singer, they could've been an early Menudo, maybe...

1.  Tony Asher
2.  Van Dyke Parks
3.  Reggie Dunbar

I was just fooling around. Ha ha....I guess my "album title" could be a little misleading; I just rounded the comp out with other "creative" period pieces. I'd buy it.

Yeah, I totally think there needs to be some comp of Brian's songs from 67-74, just to bring all of that amazing material to light. Too many people still think he stopped making music after "Heroes and Villains". If they could find one or two really cool Smile song acetates to put on it and promoted it in indie circles, it could actually sell, I think. I mean, come on, between Brian's personal collection of vintage Smile music he supposedly has, all of those acetates Van Dyke's ex-wife has, and those acetates of "H&V" and other Smile songs Al/Bruce say they have, there must be something out there they could put on it to give the comp that X factor. But, also, the people behind it would have to have some taste, and looking at most other BB comps, that's just not going to happen. I can dream, anyway...

IMHO, Reggie Dunbar  (aka Murry Wilson) may have given Brian the idea of a break away lyric but I doubt that he and Brian sat together at a piano and co-wrote the song. Maybe it was Brian's way of trying to extend an olive branch to his dad. I also doubt that neither Murry, the Beach Boys, nor Capitol Records read between the lines of the song- Brian was declaring his need to break away from the shackles that kept him from growing as a person, a producer (as opposed to a member of a band), and an artist. Too bad he had to break down rather than be "allowed" to break away.

Phil
PrayForSurfBlog.blogspot.com

Murry wrote pretty much all the lyric and, according to Brian, a little of the music.

Incidentaly, I think the lyrics to Breakaway are the FINEST to have ever graced a Beach Boys track!!!

So, Brian Wilson has some SMiLE acetates of (maybe) music that nobody has or will ever hear. The more things change, the more they stay the same. :police:

I have it from Brian direct that it was a full colaberation. Murry wrote most of the words, and during the Sunflower sessions Brian was getting along well with the group. He wanted to write them a hit not "Break Away" as it were. I think Leaf is the only one who wrote that about this song before.

I didn't really want this to become a "let's praise Mike and no one else" thread, but I thank everyone for their participation and if anyone still wants to list their top three, keep 'em coming.

Hey now! We're praising Murray too!!! >:D

And it's a bit inevitable to overpraise Mike nowadays!

If more people found it possible to praise Van Dyke, Tony Asher, ect. WITHOUT having to blash Mike in the process....
it would be a happier world

True, but as anyone (David Leaf, for example) would know, Van Dyke was a more worthy air to Brian's infinite genius, while Mike was a no-talent hack who happened to have been Brian's cousin and thus got lucky...and yes, I am kidding.  ;D

"Break Away" was released before the Add Some Music/Sunflower sessions.

Released before but if you consider "Forever" to be the start of that era (which I do) it's a part of them.