The Smiley Smile Message Board

From what I can gather, Brian had two frightening experiences with LSD and one (half) very positive one. How long after this did he start having problems and what was it that caused them? mid-67 to 75 seems to be a murky time period (it gets little attention in his "auto"biography). From Brian's own comments about his experiences, they seem to have been positive ones overall.

It seems to me that after he gave up on Smile, and collaborated with the BBs more, he was "alright" for a year or two and then things started to go bad for him, but either no one knows, or everyone knows but me and no one is saying it.

I haven't really followed all the soap-opera aspects of the timelines etc...but wouldn't his amphetamine use in the 60s or cocaine use in the late 60s have been worse for him?

I think Brian said it best, some good few years ago: "LSD blew my mind and I came back in about a million pieces". Doesn't sound at all positive to me.

I'm not sure that LSD is completely to blame. I think the fact that he was already experienceing the affects of being paranoid schitzophrenic didnt help. I'm sure the acid only worsened the symptoms.

Not to make this a drug forum or anything but was the acid of the late 60's more powerful than the acid of today? I'm not a burnout or anything but I have had a few experiences with Liquid LSD in my early 20's. It was powerful but I dont ever remember feeling completely out of control. Maybe the LSD from back then was just stronger. Maybe Brain had a connection with Owsley:) .  Any of you guys around back in the day to comment?

Agreed, but I doubt he could've written Good Vibrations if he'd never taken it. Not that Brian probably gets much solace from that fact. Or maybe he does!

The acid back then was whole orders of magnitude stronger - the stuff Brian took was very pure.

I guess it's the timeline of what happened after, more than the effects of the drugs themselves, that I haven't fully grasped.

It's tempting to see Smiley Smile as Brian's post-LSD freakout/breakdown/retreat etc...but he was still making/planning to make fully-realised and professional music with Redwood. (until BB Corp nixed that idea too).

It seems to be there must have been something else other than those 2.5 trips that did it...

I never really thought acid seemed to do that much damage to Brian. He was already freaking out about his success before he took illegal drugs. It was sort of inevitable that the pressures of stardom would be his undoing. He had too much talent not to shine, but was not fit to cope with the personal effects of it. If anything, you could almost frame his use of drugs and the subsequent psychedelic music as a sort of rebellion towards the people that were trying to control and use him, either overtly or inadvertently, for their own benefit. It had to be very unnerving to have your entire family heavily involved with and dependent on your artistic muse. "In My Room" and "Warmth of the Sun", among others, show Brian wanting to be move in a more spiritual direction from the very beginning.

I think it's easy for Brian to blame acid now because not that many people understand it and so it becomes an easy scapegoat. If his acid use was so immediately devastating, why was he glorifying it for several years afterwards? I think his amphetamine use had way more to do with SMiLE's collapse then acid.

I agree with you on this one Dada...I think the only thing the acid did was to exacerbate Brian's already-present mental illness.  It is clear that he already had some problems...the dude had a nervous breakdown at 22 for crying out loud.  The more into drugs he got (weed, LSD, speed, etc.), the more accelerated his mental decline became. 

We all know the crazy stories of paranoia from the Smile era.  Perhaps the LSD took him to a place that made him more paranoid, and ultimately sped up his inevidable downfall.  I tend to think of the LSD as a catalyst for something that would have happened anyways (though perhaps to a lesser degree).  It isn't as black and white as "Brian was perfectly fine, took LSD and went crazy."

Loaf, your thread is in danger of turning into a drugs vs. mental illness and chicken before the egg debate. ;D Did we ever have an official debate about that? Which came first, which led to which, and would Brian have been OK without which one? Man, that could go on for pages and pages....

We're not doctors, shrinks, or (I don't think) people who took the quantity of drugs that Brian did. We don't know Brian, or ALL of his medical history. But that never kept me/us from speculating before! Yes, one can lead to the other and vice versa, but, for what it's worth (actually, nothing), I've always put more "blame" on the drugs than the mental illness.

This doesn't quite fit the timeline being discussed and doesn't necessarily involve LSD but... close enough.

This is from Phil FANG Volk's website.  www.philfangvolk.com   He was the bass player for the original Paul Revere & The Raiders for those too young to know or those who lost too many brain cells along the way!  I think it's a good website which deserves broader reading to understand this guy's perspective and a good insight into the era but to get to this specific spot on his site click History then scroll down to Ricky Nelson's Stone Canyon Band 1970.  This is about halfway down just below the picture of the Nelson family on the staircase.  He was back on the road with Paul Revere during a hiatus with Ricky Nelson.

"The strange part about this gig I did with Paul in 1970 was the fact that Brian Wilson made one of his rare appearances with the band and he kind of sat at the piano in a semi-catatonic state during the show occasionally singing and playing, and occasionally just staring into space. After the show, he dashed from the stage, ran out the back stage door, and proceeded to crawl his way up a steep grassy knoll, where he continually slipped backwards from the damp grass on the slope. He was screaming and crying like somebody was hurting him or chasing after him, and he was trying to escape. His wife followed him up the hill, reassuring him that no one was chasing him, that all was safe, and he didn't need to be afraid. There was no riot, no crowd scenes, no fans pulling on his clothes or hair, and it was safe to come back inside the auditorium. It was quite a sight for me to behold. This once magnificently creative and powerful songwriter/composer/musician and leader of one of the greatest bands in rock history was having a major paranoid, delusional episode right in front of our eyes, and it was scary to me that he was so out of touch with reality. His wife and bandmates had apparently seen this quite often in different variations, and they all seemed fairly underwhelmed with the whole episode– took it in stride– as if it was business as usual, but for me, it was shocking and sickening to witness. Not long after that, he spent the next few years of his life under his blankets at home with a 24hour a day therapist by his side trying to get him back in touch with the real world. Finally after so many years, it's nice to see him back in the loop, recording and touring again at age 60, but I'm sure the rehabilitation was a very long, and dark period in his life. I'm sure he suffered a great deal, but I often wonder how his excessive drug use in his "glory days" may have contributed to his tragic demise into "never-neverland." I've wondered the same about the tragic loss of Rick Nelson..."

The paragraph quoted continues and so does Phil's story but that's the BW part.

Didn't he say "came back in I don't know how many pieces"?

This may not be accurate, but I read somewhere that one dose back in the 60's was about ten times more powerful than the acid of today.

Jon Stebbins wrote about it in his book, but he had it more as a panic attack followed by a successful show. From the tape I can hear Brian do many parts. I know it's muddy but his voice has a certain resonance with me. Considering Brian called the tour the best three days of my life in an interview later that year I put Phill's story in a milder perspective. Again photos of Brian on stage in 1970 seem to have him pretty with it. Maybe not 1964 Brian but not 1976 Brian either.
Going back to drugs directly I think LSD hurt him, but cocaine probably did the most damge along with Landy's meds.

As I understand it, the "LSD" of today actually isn't LSD.  Real LSD is very difficult to synthesize, and a substitute has now come into use, which mixes LSD type effects with an "upper".  I think I read that in the wikipedia article on LSD.

Thanks for sharing this story. I'd never heard it before. I appreciate stories like this because I sometimes feel bad wondering if Brian had it in him to make more great music, and then I realize he is a sick person and has been that way for a LONG time.

I am quite sure LSD can liberate the worst, but halfway repressed, 'neutralized', memories in a person who went through trauma. If you compare a war veteran with a person who never fought, I'd say the first could pay the price for its use the rest of his life, whilst the other may emerge without any damage.

Yeah, thanks GLarson. And, you're right, Heywood. But, think about Marilyn; what a nightmare life it must have been for her throughout much of that period 1965 - 1977. We talk a lot about how Mike must've felt, seeing his cousin disintegrate in front of his eyes, but to see it happen with your husband....

No LSD, no Pet Sounds.  IMO, period.   :brian

OK, Loren. >:D

Substitute Smile (or Good Vibrations) for Pet Sounds and I'd be inclined to agree, but Rubber Soul is the main reason for the existence of Pet Sounds, not LSD.

Maybe no intro to California Girls, I'll grant you that.

Like alcohol, which they have now proven "tickles" certain receptors in the brain and causes an addiction to that substance, so to do other drugs. Here is the thing: If your brain chemistry is "on the edge" as Brian's was, it only takes something that alters that to cause lasting damage. Thing about penicillin. Thousand of people take it with nothing but positive effects (destroying infections within their bodies). The some people take the same drug and it causes  shock and sometimes kills people. I think the same has to be said for all drugs. Just because thousands can take it with no lasting effects doesn't mean everyone can. And I will tell you, as a child of the 70's, I got really really tired of telling people I don't get high only to get the "WTF is wrong with you?!" retort. Of course, several friends are dead now from drugs....so........ :p

I'm not a musician and don't play any instruments, so I don't really understand when people say LSD and other drugs made it possible for Brian to compose his best music. Don't you think he was probably more influenced by what his contemporaries were doing and his own musical taste?

I think drugs can help one get to a more creative place way faster and easier, occasionally, even booze. I mean, it can't be argued that most of the great albums weren't made by folks who were totally wasted often.

(http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/i_03_cr/i_03_cr_que/i_03_cr_que_1a.jpg)

The majority of drugs work on the so-called reward system of the brain. The VTA (ventral tegmental area) is stimulated, and then this area sends the neurotransmitter dopamine out to the Nucleus Accumbens (NA or NAcc), the amygdala, and the prefrontal cortex. There is a rush, an intense sense of well-being, and perhaps this is the condition where a sensitive artist loses his or her fears temporarily and creates.

Incidentally, sex and good food work on the same principle. Just so that you know.

It became the gateway to other things that almost killed him. Nothing to glorify in that.

Im curious to the people that claim LSD was infact the path (or the actual reason) that led Brian's decline have actually tried LSD and understand what it does to you...

I mean, I'm not going to 'glorify' drugs or anything, but man...what a trip! :3d

LSD = a glimpse at moksha (for some people) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha

I'm sure Brian had trouble dealing with it..

There's only one way to understand it: take drugs and play around with a musical instrument. There's just a magic about it that can't really be defined precisely. Mainly, I would say that something like marijuana can allow for greater concentration towards one's playing and makes conceptualizing new musical ideas easier. Brian was growing artistically before he took drugs (by All Summer Long he was really starting to find himself as a producer/songwriter), but by Summer Days/Summer Nights and Pet Sounds he seems almost possessed. He must have spent over 10 hours a day on the piano honing his craft to get that far that fast.

Listen, I hate to say it, but do you have any idea what a good high can do for sex & good food???

Not to make light of the topic, however, & speaking as one who indulged his fair share with all 3 Wilson's...:
Yeah, acid probably did more harm than good in both Brian & Dennis' case.  Brian by his own choice,
Dennis because he was dosed - two times!  And yet I think they both did themselves a lot more harm
with their own 'substances of choice';  in Dennis case, booze & coke, in Brian's, speed & coke & booze...
They both 'numbed the pain' far too much with what worked for them...  Still, though, would either of
their artistry's ever have had the chance to 'come out' without the substances?  Maybe it's just the
passing of time, (and Dennis not being here), but I think not...

I don't know She Knows Me Too Well was before drugs and that is pretty far out. I think drugs sped up things that were already there in a lot of ways. don't think they did heavy damage to him until 72 or 73, because that's when I think he got out of control. Let's go back to 1963 Brian is putting on weight, he is obsessively listening to Spector, he is begging off tours. In 1964 he has major panic attacks and public drunken displays on the 1964 Euro tour. He had mental issues before drugs. Again I think drugs just sped up a thing that was already there. That said I don't think Brian and Dennis would have fell apart in the same way after Murry died had they not been taking drugs. I feel their mental states would have been more grounded.

The 1970 story doesn't speak to his continuous state of mind at the time. There was a relative normalcy about him that Desper, Sandler, and even Reiley describes. Not that he was happy all the time, but the slurred voiced, stare into space, uncommunicative person you see today was not there then. In the late sixties and early 70's he didn't need a caretaker. Again all you need to do is look at photos listen to interviews, and also the music. Compare 1968-71 to Brian any time later and despite some bad paths he was starting on, there was here a lot more of the old Brian about him. Again the mental issues went way back before all this. Remember Gaines revealed he had to take a pill to be calm enough for his drivers test. It went way back

Drugs affect different people in different ways. John Lennon took loads of acid and it never really affected him in the long term. Whereas someone like Syd Barrett lost his mind in a short period of time.

Who knows?

I think the correlation between drugs and creativity is overrated.

Well I think Lennon changed. Before LSD he would have laughed himself silly at Yoko and the type of antics they pulled in the late sixties. Also he lost a degree of confidence and became more angry. I cannot say this is all down to acid, but I think the Lennon from 40-66 was quite different then the one from 67-80. I also agree that drugs are given too much credit.

Put me down for that line of thinking as well... I had a friend who thought that cause he would take drugs somehow he would become a really great songwriter. Well you have to actually have talent first!! :-D I mean as MBE rightly points out, Brian was progressing so fast... I mean he had gone from Surfin' to things like The Warmth of the Sun & She Knows Me Too Well in around 3 years... that's a pretty big step and clearly he was heading towards Pet Sounds with or without drugs! It might not have been the same but I'm sure it would've been just as good.

I would agree, but I admire Ed Roach's post a lot too. I would say that indeed the first use of drugs whilst having sex might increase the experience a lot. But, the thing is: this added effect will wean off pretty quickly, and there is a good chance that a person never has the same sexual pleasure again that he or she had before the drugs. It is all a matter of associations of experiences (in the NAcc and VTA I described above).

I used to practice guitar on my own. Oftentimes I drank beer to go with it, and after three or four bottles I thought: Gosh, I have TALENT, don't I sound like JOHN FAHEY himself? I must record it before it's lost forever... and so I did, on a Compact Cassette. Then I went to bed a happy man.

Next day, I would replay the recording with great expectations. And guess what? I thought: this is crap. Not simple, brown, stinking crap, but crap of a higher order.

One of Beatles (I can't remember which) that when they recorded high the sessions always came out sounding like crap and they would have to redo all the work sober.

Drugs (LSD) opened his mind and stimulated his creativity to reach new heights - and turned him towards the new spiritual direction of Smile.  There's a recent (in the past couple of years) quote from Brian to that effect, and quotes from 66 concerning his new spiritual direction.  What damage was done specifically by LSD is open to debate, vs. his underlying mental illness.  I suspect he became more paranoid and delusional after the LSD (Spector mind gangsteres et al) but how much of that was due to amphetamines and marijuana?

Of course you need to have talent first, but anyone who has taken drugs will tell you that they do seem to unlock things in your mind that are maybe more far out than you would have come up with otherwise.  Like I've said before, I don't think that Pet Sounds was necessarily drug influenced, but without drugs there would almost certainly be no Good Vibrations or Smile, at least in their present forms.

I wouldn't know from experience, but many songwriters I've talked to have said that even a drug as innocuous as pot makes ideas come faster and (sometimes, at least) better.  Not that being under the influence is good for recording; I'm not trying to suggest that.  But strictly from a creative standpoint, in certain people I think it does open up new creative possibilities.

LSD doesn't just make one want to do things in a more psychedelic way.  As Ed alluded to, it can show you that your fears and hangups aren't that big a deal, and you can do whatever you'd like to

This is a difficult question to answer.  No one knows what long term effects Brian’s three LSD trips had on his psyche.  I’ve pasted a few interesting passages from Wikipedia regarding LSD and what effects it may or may not have had on Brian (bolded italics are mine):   

“LSD's psychological effects (colloquially called a "trip") vary greatly from person to person, depending on factors such as previous experiences, state of mind and environment, as well as dose strength. They also vary from one trip to another, and even as time passes during a single trip. An LSD trip can have long-term psycho-emotional effects; some users cite the LSD experience as causing significant changes in their personality and life perspective.”

And this regarding the spiritual effects that some users experience:

“Some psychological effects may include an experience of radiant colors, objects and surfaces appearing to ripple or "breathe," colored patterns behind the eyes, a sense of time distorting (time seems to be stretching, repeating itself, changing speed or stopping), crawling geometric patterns overlaying walls and other objects, morphing objects, a sense that one's thoughts are spiraling into themselves, loss of a sense of identity or the ego (known as "ego death"), and powerful, and sometimes brutal, psycho-physical reactions interpreted by some users as reliving their own birth. Many users experience a dissolution between themselves and the "outside world". This unitive quality may play a role in the spiritual and religious aspects of LSD. The drug sometimes leads to disintegration or restructuring of the user's historical personality and creates a mental state that some users report allows them to have more choice regarding the nature of their own personality.”
“LSD is considered an entheogen because it can catalyze intense spiritual experiences, during which users may feel they have come into contact with a greater spiritual or cosmic order. Some users report insights into the way the mind works, and some experience long-lasting changes in their life perspective. Some users consider LSD a religious sacrament, or a powerful tool for access to the divine. Dr. Stanislav Grof has written that religious and mystical experiences observed during LSD sessions appear to be phenomenologically indistinguishable from similar descriptions in the sacred scriptures of the great religions of the world and the secret mystical texts of ancient civilizations.”

And finally this, regarding the possible long term effects:

There are some cases of LSD inducing a psychosis in people who appeared to be healthy prior to taking LSD. This issue was reviewed extensively in a 1984 publication by Rick Strassman.  In most cases, the psychosis-like reaction is of short duration, but in other cases it may be chronic. It is difficult to determine whether LSD itself induces these reactions or if it triggers latent conditions that would have manifested themselves otherwise. The similarities of time course and outcomes between putatively LSD-precipitated and other psychoses suggests that the two types of syndromes are not different and that LSD may have been a nonspecific trigger. Several studies have tried to estimate the prevalence of LSD-induced prolonged psychosis arriving at numbers of around 4 in 1,000 individuals (0.8 in 1,000 volunteers and 1.8 in 1,000 psychotherapy patients in Cohen 1960; 9 per 1,000 psychotherapy patients in Melleson 1971).


Yeah, I never did buy that ‘gateway’ argument.  Did Brian get into cocaine, booze, speed, overeating because he took LSD first?  Doubtful.
 

This I can buy, although it should read ‘Different drugs affect different people in different ways’.  LSD is not pot is not cocaine is not whiskey is not aspirin.
   

One can argue that the late ‘60s was one of the most creative periods in pop music history, and that is, IMHO, at least partly because of the prevalent drug use during the era.  I have a good friend who was a member of a very popular L.A. based band in the late ‘60s-early ‘70s.  I won’t mention his or the band’s name, but everyone here has heard their songs on the radio.  He was rubbing shoulders with everybody who was anybody in the music business at the time.  He says that nearly everybody in the L.A. music scene (rock, bubblegum, jazz, soul, blues) did some kind of drugs during that era.  Was all of that great music made in spite of this fact, or because of it?  There’s a reason why jazz players have been smoking pot since jazz was invented.
 

I had another good friend who was a singer/songwriter/acoustic guitarist.  This guy would drink some during his shows, but he never did any other drugs.  Whenever we did a show together in the ‘80s and ‘90s (I played lead guitar for him fairly regularly), he would make sure that I smoked some pot before every show.  If I didn’t have any, he would find some for me.  Why?  He said that I played much more creatively when I was stoned.

I'd be hesitant to say that any drug will make someone more creative. It will however show you another perpective on life and I think people that were already creative can use this perspective to their advantage.

Hmmm....  This is exactly why I always had so much resistance to ever start posting here.
And I didn't even have sense enough to use a nom de blume!  Now I have to see my own name
attached to that statement above.  When I read this, though, I regretted posting a lot less:

I actually wanted to delete that last sentence, 'cause I don't necessarily agree, but it's not right for me to change his slant.  Especially when he makes me less uneasy about my honesty here!  It also leads me to agree with something else that he said, and others had expounded upon similar things:
This I can buy, although it should read ‘Different drugs affect different people in different ways’.  LSD is not pot is not cocaine is not whiskey is not aspirin.
Was all of that great music made in spite of this fact, or because of it?  There's a reason why jazz players have been smoking pot since jazz was invented.


Well, I screwed up copying some of those quotes, but you can go back and see who said what.  My point here was my experience of that damn beast cocaine on some of not only music's, but some of the literary & films worlds, greatest minds of our times. 
Back in those halcyon days, there was no greater excuse to overindulge than being an "artiste".  Those who possessed enough brains or willpower, or a suitable combination of the two, quickly realized that what came of these times was better left unheard.  Sleep would have been a wiser choice.  And believe me, plenty of examples of these nites & days exist on tape, but in all likelyhood will never be heard; most of it for good reason...
Unfortunately for some of these guys, and  Dennis is included here, there was a world of pain attached to the expanded experience of Self.  Lo-&-behold, they quickly discovered that there were other substances, ones that could mask a helluva' lot of pain...  Dennis at his best, and most definitely Brian at his best, were able to transfer incredibly raw emotions and feelings onto tape - it's why we're still here, after all these years, still looking for nuggets & answers...  And let's thank God that people can finally hear where he was headed with Bambu...  And Brian, facing SmiLe after all of those years???

Look, I'm gonna read this in the morning, (or early afternoon), and probably regret having posted it.  Hell, I started regrettingeting ever entering this thread, or ever find finding my password after all this time.  You guys are for the most part real hardcore - some, to the point of being fanatical...  But man, where would we be without some of your research?  And we definitely extend to the extremes in our lifestyles & viewpoints.  Me, I'm happy to be able to say that both Brian & I are survivors...  And I'm certain I'm a better person for the life that I've lead.  Absolutely no regrets on my part, save for those I wish hadn't checked out too soon...  Yet I also take solace in the fact that I know there are still surprises to come from the canon of Dennis Wilson.  And I still harbor hope that Brian will one day reach for the sky again... 
G-night now...

Hi Ed -

you may be embarrassed about yourself, but in my eyes you have no reason to be at all. Because man, I adore your writings and sheer candour in this thread. Re-reading your comments made me laugh out loud again about my self-perception as a 'talent' when drunk...  :lol

Well let me start by saying that I, for one, am glad that you post here, Ed.  It is great to read the stories from a guy who was living in the world of Wilson for all those years, and I really enjoy the occasional photo or two that you post.  I really hope you keep posting. 

I don’t post here often, myself, but I visit quite regularly.  In my post above, it sounds as if I am condoning drug use, and I didn’t mean for it to come off that way.  I sampled my share of substances back in the ‘70s.  I was fortunate to have had a strong enough will to avoid getting hooked on anything stronger than weed.  I have seen cocaine destroy people’s lives, and we have all heard the stories about LSD and heroin casualties.  The musician from L.A. that I mentioned in my post did get caught up in the scene, and blew a hell of a lot of money on the white powder, which was considered to be relatively harmless at the time.  He was also lucky enough to kick it, but he had to leave L.A. for the midwest to get away from it. 

Look, we’ll never know for sure if it was the acid, or the mental issues, or the speed, or just the wrong combination of chemicals hitting Brian’s brain at a given moment that caused him to change so rapidly.  Here is what I believe: I believe that the beautiful music that he created for Dumb Angel/Smile in 1966 and 1967 was inspired by or fueled by his LSD experiences.  I also believe that the drug changed him forever.  It didn’t necessarily ruin him, but it changed him enough that he no longer felt the urge to compete with Spector or The Beatles.