The Smiley Smile Message Board

Mike Love has, over the years, become the symbol of much of the bad side of the BBs.  Among Smile-philes he is villain #1 on the list of Smile destroyers.  I count myself among the ranks of people who dislike Mike Love for many reasons.  But a closer look at Mike Love's actions in the 66-68 time frame show a more complex situation.  There seems to be a rapid change of character.  Here is the mystery as I see it:

Yes, Mike was pissed off about getting cheated out of California Girls royalties by Murry.
Yes, Mike grumbled about Pet Sounds, had Hang On To Your Ego changed to I Know There's An Answer.
Yes, he referred to Pet Sounds as "Brian's ego music."
Yes, he didn't like Tony Asher or VD Parks writing the lyrics and thus getting publishing royalties that he many times used to get.
Yes, he apposed the Smile lyrics, specifically the lyrics to Cabinessence, and over the years it appears that this was a main sticking point in the Smile project.
Yes, he didn't want to "f*** with the formula."
Yes, he didn't like Brian's weird new friends and all the drugs.

But.

How could the business-minded question Brian's new sound when it had just led to the BBs biggest ever selling single?

He sang on and helped "produce" Smiley Smile, which royally f*** with the formula and had some lyrics that didn't make too much sense (though the most complex VDP lyrics were gone).

It is rumored that Love smoked a little pot that summer of 67.

Fall of 67 he suddenly got into TM.  Maharishi Mahesh Yogi wasn't exactly the most normal guy.  So michael vosse was too much to handle but the Maharishi and his crew was ok?

Mike ran off to India and missed most of the Friends sessions, as if he didn't really care what the BBs produced for the next album.  Then he came back and did the song Transcendental Meditation which has some pretty inaccessible lyrics and is far removed from the BBs "formula".  "Over and over the crow flies--uncover the corn field" is out of the question, but "fusion of the never changing wind" is just fine?  So now it was ok to be weird and far-out, but a year ago it wasn't?

In 68' Mike Love was all gun-ho for a tour with the Maharishi and it didn't exactly go over well.  Again, the year before it was "don't f*** with the formula" but now it was ok to REALLY f*** with the formula by having this guru be the opening act?

Then, in 1969 he thinks it is just fine to put out Cabinessense, by this point out of a bit of desperation, and a few years later even Surf's Up gets a release.  At the same time he was dancing around on stage in guru garb, which was far removed from the stripped shirts Brian and Dennis hates so much.  After this era he seems to go back quickly to his conservative self and stayed that way.

Did Mike Love have a sudden conversion of business and artist style in 1967-68, or was it blatant opportunism has times changed quickly under his feet?

Or perhaps, as some have suggested, Mike didn't have as much of a problem with the material at the time as is commonly believed. He did sing those lines on Cabinessence, after all. And objecting to a drug-fueled, apparently destructive scene around your cousin is not the same as being immune to the overall craziness of the 60s.

(edit) I hasten to add that I don't necessarily believe this, but you raise some important questions about Mike. For me, the oddest bit of the Beach Boys saga has always been the replacement of the somewhat avant-garde Smile with the infinitely less commercial Smiley Smile. If the group truly wanted to thwart Brian's ambitions, why on earth would they put that out? (/edit)

I used to think Mike was THE reason SMiLE never came out, but in the last year I've sort of softened my stance on that. Did he have problems with it? Yeah, he did. So did all the other guys. I don't care for the type of person that he seems to be, but to constantly say that he's the MAIN reason the album never came out just doesn't seem to be accurate.

The reason why Smile failed to happen is, in the final analysis, almost childishly simple: for whatever reason(s), Brian turned his back on it. His decision.

Mike could question the new sound despite the success of Good vibrations because Mike believed the success of Good Vibrations was due to his making the song "accessible" and consumer friendly with the girl-boy lyrics and the good vibrations "hook" (the low "I'm thinking of good vibrations, excitations, etc.").  Without his input into making the music more commercial he felt the Smile music was too avant garde and inaccessible.

Smiley Smile had his input and therefore was acceptable - Brian even released a single by Brian and Mike Love.  Mike was back where he felt he belonged, contributing lyrics and ideas and putting the "optimism" in Brian's "downer" music.  And getting royalties.   And getting some lead vocals.  But you're right, Mike had changed - Sgt Pepper had come out, and it was clear a seachange in music was happening with pschedelia.  Mike put his own goofy Hawthorne stoned humor into Smile, it was weird but it was clearly supposed to be humorous and not taken too seriously (unlike the oblique, trying too hard to be profound VDP lyrics).

Yeah, he smoked some pot and hash, he tried to stay current with the times when it became obvious every hipster including the Beatles were doing so.

The Mahareshi Yogi was a spiritual leader, and although eccentric in some ways bears no comparison on any level to the Vosse Posse, who were in Mike's mind leading Brian off the commercial path and into the avantgarde.  And taking away his writing royalties.  Why did the Maharishi appeal so much to Mike?  Because he told him he could have money and fame and success AND spiritual enlightenment at the same time.  

I don't think Mike had much say in Cabinessence or Surf's Up coming out - Carl (and in the case of Cabinessence, Dennis also) were the ones calling the shots at that time.  

So I think Mike changed some with the times (getting stoned, contributing to the Smiley weirdness, getting into TM), while still keeping his core values (making money) intact.

Brian was ahead of the curve in those days, dropping acid in 65 before they'd even released Barbara Ann as a single, but when the underground went overground in 67, maybe Mike felt more comfortable because 'everyone' was doing it, rather than just secretive inner circles.

Mike probably figured the striped shirt days were done.  It was the summer of love era, he had to change, the counterculture was the in thing, he did what he had to do to change with the times and music to keep the ball rolling.  He had some kids and a couple of wives by then that he either had to pay alimony to or take care of. 

Other than his incessant need to litigate and the poo he caused with that over the years, I really don't have a problem with ML.  I saw the Mike and Bruce show last summer, and it was a really good concert, yes it would have been better with David, Al, Denny, Carl and Brian onstage, but for who was there, it was enjoyable.

Brian was ahead of the curve, dropping acid...   Unfortunately no, that was not being ahead of the curve, that was behavior that caused his destruction.

I'd say his genetic predisposition for depression/bi-polar/schizo affective disorders is what "caused his destruction."  You can't think of LSD as quite the same as any other type of drug.. it was Brian's reaction to what LSD showed him that worsened his depression.  You can't just blame the acid and be done with it.

For someone (myself) who's been playing in bands for 20 years (with varying degrees of non-success) one thing has made itself clear, and that's the fact that bands fight! There are constant disagreements to the nith degree. Fights over arrangements, credits, money, setlists, drugs, spouses, managers, ect, ect... And for those I've known and played with who have achieved success, the fighting/disagreements only increase. BUT usually, it's everyone in the band being outspoken about what they want/don't want, like/don't like..... With the Beach Boys, I can't help but get the impression that Mike was the only one other Brian who would regularly verbalise his opinion with any amount of confidence or passion or force.... Therefore, it's easy to see him as the all-time villian!

If there was one person on this earth who should never, ever have been offered acid, it was Brian. Which I why I will despise Loren Schwarz with all my soul until the end of my days. I don't watch the "Beautiful Dreamer" doc because I just know that I'll kick the screen in the instant his smug, sweaty, self-important face appears. To consider it amusing that he was instrumental in instigating the downfall of Brian's creativity...

And undying shame on David Leaf, and Brian's people, for allowing this maggot any screen time.

Who could've known that at the time, though? Unless you had a detailed personal history of Brian and the time to seriously psychoanalyze it, it probably would have been difficult to foresee all of the negative repercussions of dosing Brian. They probably just thought, "hey, it's a trip, he might freak out for a few hours but that's it". And Brian wanted to take acid. No need to blame anyone else. He was a celebrity and would've been able to get acid from somewhere eventually.

You are spot on there, man. Being in the Beach Boys at that time was probably like having 5 girlfriends. I don't think the average person would understand what a tense relationship these things tend to be.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20.  No one knew that Brian had the predisposition for mental illness. It's also easy to forget that up until the 60's, LSD was a legal drug.

Loren Daro was there. His side of the story needed to be told for better or for worse. 

The permissive drug use of the 60's and 70's ruined a lot of people, Brian being of its more notable victims.

No one is disputing that there were drug casulaities. But there were also those who didn't suffer what Brian and Syd and Roky suffered. It's not as cut and dried as some would believe. What I'm saying it that it is too easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback with regards to Brian Wilson. 

Here we go again....and where do I start.... :police:

While I sometimes wish Mike Love would've felt differently about those issues you listed, The Song Of The Grange, I always hesitate to BLAME him because I know I WOULD'VE FELT THE SAME WAY AS MIKE. I also think the other Beach Boys felt more LIKE Mike than differently, but, as has been mentioned in this thread, weren't as vocal about it, for various reasons.

To me, that popular question, why would Mike protest the SMiLE music so much and NOT Smiley Smile, proves to me anyway, that Mike was not as opposed to SMiLE as has been speculated. To me, it is always Exhibit A in Mike's defense whenever that case is argued.

I don't have a lot of positive things to say about some of Brian's posse in 1966-67, but I don't blame them for Brian's drug intake or its escalation. I will never win this argument, but I always viewed Brian and Dennis' drug intake in the 1960's as much a result of hedonism and an addictive personality - drugs, sex, food, cars, bizarre purchases - along with the fact that had the time and money to accomplish this. They had a lot of money and a lot of time on their hands to spend it. The 1970's were a different story, however.

Yeah, Mike did change his image as the 60's blended into the 70's; in some ways he was hip, maybe the hippest member of the group. But, because his musical preference in the late 70's'/early 80's reverted BACK instead of forward, he will always pay for that, even though Brian did the same thing.

It's disgusting, but fair. But not as much as Mike Love's side, Al Jardine's side or Bruce Johnston's side. They're the people who could have really fleshed out that story. But whether they refused or weren't offered, those omissions kept that documentary a puff piece.

Mike, Al and Bruce were all asked to take part in Beautiful Dreamer and all three refused to be interviewed. If it's a one-sided "puff piece",  then I don't think Leaf is to blame.

I agree Andrew, I really don't like Daro/Schwartz (whatever his name is)... I really hate how he thinks it was the drugs that caused Brian to write great songs... Hmm, as far as I can tell Brian was writing some pretty damn good songs beforehand and was progressively getting better all the time without the drugs.

Incredibly overstated.

By the time they started Smiley, it had been well over a year since the release of their previous album and had spent some time in litigaton with Capitol over the royalty dispute. The band needed to have SOMETHING out. Having something that you might not approve of personally released might have been the lesser of the two evils for Mike in 1967.

No if about it. And I wasn't blaming, just noting the glaring and unfortunate omission.

Heaven forbid Brian was offered LSD...poor guy had no choice with that gun held to his head.

I agree. He's a main character in the BBs story, simply because he did give Brian acid and helped change the course of things (although if he hadn't done it, someone else would have-- Brian wanted to try it). And his reaction on film is kind of interesting for Beach Boys historians. That's how he feels about it. It gives us some insight into the kind of person he is. I don't think getting screen time did him any favors, judging by the general reaction to his interview.

That's the thing...I find it hard to blame Loren as much as others do.  Not that I particularly like the guy, but Brian was going to try LSD one way or the other.  Loren happened to be the one to help him do it, but like you said Amy, if not him, it would have been someone else.  Back in those days especially, Brian got what he wanted, and I'm sure he could have obtained LSD from several other places.

If anything, we should blame whoever introduced him to marijuana (was that Loren as well?).  He only tried LSD after being told that it was far more powerful than pot.  Marijuana really was a gateway drug in his case, and led him down an obviously tragic path.

For me, it's not so much blaming him it's just that I don't like the guy.

I think much of the dislike of Daro isn't so much providing the drugs as it is how he seems to think it's hilarious even now. I'd think a person with any sort of conscience or empathy would say "You know, a lot of us were doing it at the time--it was legal, remember. And Brian wanted some, so I gave it to him. It had different effects on different people, but in hindsight, considering Brian's since-diagnosed mental illnesses, it was a tragic mistake." Nope. He laughs. He reminds me of a stupid teenager giggling about what his dumbass friend did when drunk. "Dude, he totally fell down! Hahaha."

I was surprised Loren Schwarz appeared in the documentary anyway. I'm not great with dates, but didn't Loren supply/Brian take the LSD for the first time in late 1964? That's almost two years before Brian began SMiLE. Was it necessary to bring that into the SMiLE picture? I'm not disputing that the LSD affected Brian's psyche - and his composing of music - but weren't the drugs during the SMiLE era, not so much LSD, but mostly marijuana, hashish, and pills? Bill Tobleman, you out there?

That was part of my point. Including him in the doc was valuable because it illuminated the type of person he is. He seems to feel no remorse. Yes, Brian probably would have tried acid anyway, but laughing about the night that he did--considering the role acid played in messing with his mind-- is just sick. And now we know more about Daro, a character in the saga. Not a very nice one.

Amen AGD AMEN!

Overall Mike was pretty hip why he and Brian regressed is hard to say. Endless Summer has a lot to do with that, and in Brian's case drugs of course. Maybe advancing age played a role.

Sheriff I think Brian did LSD in spring 65 the first time. Pot was late 1964.

I don't like Loren he's a leech. Yes I think Brian would have found drugs no matter what, but I think Dargo is a jerk. One last thing needs to be said in as much as Brian and Dennis experimented in the sixties, I wouldn't call them addicts until maybe 1972 for Brian and 1977 for Dennis.

Didn't Brian use a lot of amphetamine?   That can trigger mental breaks in those predisposed.   

I think Mike's lack of support or criticism of Brian was only one of several factors contributing to his "break"

*post-edited*

There's enough negativity in the world without internet arguments.

Oh please let this turn into a Tom Cruise "you're glib" moment. PLEASE.

I've talked with Lorren. Brian was hot to try pot and LSD, pestering Lorren about it. Lorren did not think that Brian was emotionally suited to the experimentation and put him off. A new best friend arrived on Brian's scene that had access and did not share Lorren's reservations [not anyone you are probably thinking]. Lorren felt it was better for him, Lorren, to introduce and mentor Brian in these matters if Brian was going to do it anyway. That's the way I remember it. That preceived callousness in the video may be a function of editing more than anything else.

I don't think we are even close to understanding Mike. As AGD said the only thing that killed SMiLE was Brian, he was less and less into as he progressed. No one has ever had this happen to them in creative endeavor? You are on fire and it is going to be great but it never gets great, then it isn't exciting your muse and suddenly you can't stand what you thought you loved about it.

One of my personal "best moments ever" was when I chased Loren off a SMILE web discussion. He was telling everyone that he was Brian's guru and HE was the one the turned Brian into an artist. I said he was Brian's drug pusher, pure and simple. And, as I have said on this forum time and again, except for David Anderle and Van Dyke Parks, the rest of these "best and brightest" be they Vosse, Robbins, Segal, etc,. Man, I would freak out if these leeches were hanging around the leader of my group. These are intellectuals......if you have an IQ of 12. Otherwise, these are idiots. And Loren.....he is arrogant AND stupid. Great combo.

And BTW, what the flock is up with Jack Reily. The more I see him interviewed, the less I understand how he worked for the group. He is another of those "Brain Dead" intellectuals. Another self-important blowhard.

EDIT: People are right. Brian did these drugs, no one forced him. But, for Loren to laugh about it. It's like getting someone drunk and letting him drive and even 20 years on saying "Wow, he was so wasted dude when he hit that tree and killed himself....it was awesome!" Just watching Loren talk.....makes me want to go take a shower.

I know it is unpopular in some circles to defend Mike, but I think (and it seems like some here agree) that he gets too much blame for killing Smile.  Yes, Mike had major reservations about the lyrics, maybe Hang On To Your Ego x 10, but it was Brian who chose to not challenge his band/family and stand by Park's lyrics.  Mike doesn't help is own case by being so pushing and materialistic.

About the drug thing: I think too much of the time we speak of Brian in the 1960's as some sort of helpless child-man, too innocent for this world.  Brian was a real sharp, competitive, ambitions guy in 1965 and 66.  He was just as sharp and world-wise as Dylan or Lennon, maybe with a few more hangups.  No one ever talks about people pushing drugs on Dylan or Lennon.  Anyone who has seen Eat The Document can see that Dylan was out of his mind on drugs in early 66.  He's riding around in a limo with John Lennon, clearly on something he can't handle, pukes in the limo etc.  No one says that Lennon ruined Dylan's innocence, or that Dylan ruined the Beatles innocence when he gave them pot in NYV in 1964.  Dylan, Lennon, Wilson--they knew what they were doing and they did what they felt like doing.  It isn't till after Brian's decline, mentally and physically, that I see him as being exploited and being pushed around.

Not quarreling with the fact that Dylan was often really "faced" during the 60s, and in portions of Eat The Document.  But he insists that the car footage with John Lennon looks like it does because Dylan was very very carsick, and trying his damnedest not to puke.    Lennon, being Lennon, happily gets up in his grill about it, with his mocking TV advert voice, "Feeling out of sorts lately?"

Brian abused himself.  He took a lot of speed and ate himself up to 3oo plus pounds at the same time....not an easy accomplishment.  Brian and how many other young guys with tons of money in the mid to late 60's through early 70's did themselves in with all the drugs money could buy?  I would have to side with ML in that he was watching the self destruction from close up and does not look back on it with fond nostalgia.  

I agree with you that Brian was sharp, competitive and ambitious. But there are some aspects to his personality that make it hard for him be lumped with the likes of Lennon, who played up his own worldly-wise image with a tart tongue and plenty of cynicism. Brian didn't have that-- outwardly, anyway. Even Marilyn called Brian child-like, and I think there was a part of him that was maybe in arrested development. He did have an innocent aura around him. You won't find any sarcasm or cynicism in his lyrics, and I haven't heard any in recordings I've heard of him speaking. The other thing is that Brian developed mental illness at some point, so that makes it easier to think that maybe he wasn't in his right mind when he accepted the drugs. But the guys around him didn't know that. Plus, he was also just in with a crowd of people who took drugs, in the 60s, in California. And he was a young guy who wanted new experiences and wanted to try the drugs. Just like the Beatles. From what I hear, Lennon didn't react too well to acid either. Remember the story about how George Martin took him up on the roof for some fresh air? Like Brian, Mike is more complex than he seems. Neither one was a saint or a devil, though I find Brian to be a hell of a lot more likeable, even in tapes from the 60s.

How old was Brian when he had a nervous breakdown and quit touring?  I wonder if he was under psychiatric care after that episode.

The breakdown was in December 1964, which would make Brian 22 at the time.