The Smiley Smile Message Board

This isn't the standard 'Blame Mike Love for SMiLE's non-release, the economy falling apart and everything else that's wrong with the world' post.

Look, I don't care for Mike Love. I think he's made it clear years ago that he puts money over everything else in his life. If he had any sense he'd wake up everyday and thank the Marahishi that he was born Brian Wilson's cousin, because if he didn't he'd be 'pumping gas somewhere', as the people love to say. I can't stand the guy.

However....

We know Mike's feelings about some of VDP's lyrics.  'Over and Over', and 'Columnated', yadda, yadda, yadda. You know what, though? The guy still sang them. Even if he didn't get them, he still did what he was supposed to do and sang them, and he sounds good. He refused to sing 'Hang On To Your Ego' until Brian changed the words.  If he was so disgusted by the lyrics in Cabinessence, why did he still sing them? If they bothered him so much, why didn't he put up more of a fight? I never got the impression that Mike deferred to Brian in anyway-it wasn't like he thought 'Oh, I better sing these so Brian doesn't get mad'.  And if he had been asked to help  sing the lyrics to Surf's Up, then I'm pretty sure he would have done those, based on the fact that he sang the Cabinessence lyrics that he hated so much.

I'm not saying that the truth is that Mike loved SMiLE. I believe that his ( and the BB's) questioning of a lot of the music was a factor in Brian beginning to question the music himself, but it wasn't the ultimate reason why it got shelved-it  just added to Brian's 'dissastifaction', if you will, of the music he was creating. You know, a lot of what we believe or want to believe is based on comments from people like Anderle, Vosse, VDP, Marilyn Wilson-people who adore Brian Wilson and believe the guy is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And there's nothing wrong with that. I just think that if you really look at the 'cold, hard' evidence that we have, it isn't as cut and dried as someone like Dominic Priore would have you believe. In reality, maybe there really was an undocumented meeting sometime where Mike sat down and told Brian 'I refuse to sing anymore of this drug BS'. I don't think there was, but there's always a chance (and a good one at that) of something like that happening. I don't believe that Mike Love is one of the main reasons that the album got shelved-I think that he just did his job, but was unhappy (and let Brian know) about it.

While I disagree with some of your overall sentiments about Mike, you pretty much summed up my take on the situation in 1966-67. Mike ultimately worked fairly hard on Smile. He may not have loved some of the lyrics (though he has praised Heroes and the music in general), but he did his job. I think what needs to be said again is that Brian's opinion held a lot of weight even into the early seventies. He ended Smile period, and even Domenic's latest book (Pop Surf Culture) admits theat the litigation between the Beach Boys and Capitol had more to do with Smile's demise then anything Mike did. If Mike had THAT much power Smiley would have never happened. It's weirder then Smile for one, and two Love again participated more or less fully. If anyone pulled back during Smile and Smiley it was Bruce. As early as 1975 he said Smile wouldn't have been a good idea. Of course Bruce had no say as to what went out before Bluebirds. 

I've said tons of times that Mike's objection with SMiLE was clearly not the songs, but the fact that the songs weren't being recorded quickly enough, because Brian is farting about making them grunt like swine. If SMiLE had come out, Mike would be fine. But eight months plus recording with no end in sight? ANYONE would be frustrated with that, especially when they used to record three albums a year. Plus their rivals are all stealing a march on them. THAT'S what Mike's beef was, I bet.

Whenever I hear the 'crow' line in Cabinessence I imagine Mike making a 'wacking off' gesture while singing it  :lol

You have to keep in mind that for someone that has failing confidence (Brian), the opinions of other people, ESPECIALLY friends/family, matter an awful lot and affect you greatly.  While I'm sure Mike would have kept going with the project if Brian really pushed for it, his criticism probably came off hurtful to Brian, which added to the list of reasons he ultimately scrapped it.

Variable: I agree. No one seems to realize that Brian was incapable of "not sweating the small stuff".

Mike hates SMiLE not because of the music or really the lyrics: he felt like he was being cut off from Brian personally and professionally. Hence why Mike would be in favor or the band-performed Smiley over SMILE.

Good points, John. I wanted to take slight exception to one, however, and add another one....

I think Mike did object to the songs, not all of them, but some of them. Early in the process, there had to be the moment when Brian played "Do You Like Worms" or "Fire" or even "Surf's Up", and Mike had to be thinking, "What the fu--" I'm not sure Mike "got" what Brian was doing artistically or musically, and, even more amazingly, I think he still doesn't "get" SMiLE. I say AMAZINGLY because Mike Love is a pretty sophisticated guy, but is he sophisticated musically?

I also think Mike was upset because he was bumped as lyricist/collaborator for a second straight album. Would Mike have objected to anyone's lyrics which weren't his - at that particular time? At the very time that Brian was beginning SMiLE, the No. 1 song in the country was "Good Vibrations, with lyrics from M.Love. The Beach Boys were huge in 1966, and Mike wanted more than just to sing on a few songs; he wanted a bigger part of the action. And, when he didn't get it, he spoke up.

IMO Mike was 0.08% of why SMiLE was put on hold.

Actually recordings show Mike offering/lobbying to sing all of the lyrics of HOTYE when Al was stressing out over whether he [Al] was up to the job of singing his part of the song. HOTYE came out the way Brian wanted it to, as IKTAA.

As for the rest, I think Mike is given way too much blame and VDP is given way too little blame but in the end neither deserves any blame because Brian didn't care about and wasn't ultimately influenced by anyone's desires or opinions, he alone didn't want it that way and if he had wanted it, it would have come out that way despite anyone else's feelings or desires and in fact it did come out the way he wanted.

Mike was as capable of 'getting Smile' as anyone here. It's all very basic, Americana, the white man marching west etc. The guy's not a moron. He only had a different view about how pop lyrics should sound. The way Van Dyke describes how Mike's lyrics are all about making out in the back seat of a car carries as much prejudice as the VDP weirdo character in American family. 

Something was going on inside the Beach Boys microsociety in 1966, that I can't put into words. Otherwise I'd write a book.  :)  Brian wanted to distance himself from what the Beach Boys represented. He wanted to appeal to another audience. Mike was cut off the creative process. But then, why did he let Mike write lyrics for Good Vibrations, the most commercial track he had done that year, by miles?

I don't think Smiley Smile was all about the band taking charge. First, instead of the wrecking crew you had Brian overdubbing everything, with the exception of about three tracks where Carl added some guitar and ukelele (?). Did Dennis play bongos or keyboards? probably not. The exceptions are 'She's Going Bald' and 'Getting Hungry', where the others have more say about what was going on, thus the 'Produced by the Beach Boys'credit. Second, the vast majority of Smiley Smile was never performed live, and it didn't happen because it bombed at the charts. Wild Honey bombed too and you have most of it on late '67 setlists. No way in hell Carl and Mike were listening to 'Little Pad' and thinking, "hmm, this one will sound great on stage".

Then, why was Smiley Smile released, and Smile wasn't? The former was finished, the latter wasn't. Sometimes answers ARE simple.

Agree. Which makes it very difficult to watch the BWPS documentary, when Brian looks into the camera, and says (among other reasons) that SMiLE didn't come out, because "Mike didn't like it".

Right. And that shows that Mike wasn't a factor. As long as it's done, Mike doesn't mind. Mike is just Brian's necessary bogeyman these days, like Murry was. It's like all the BS about Pet Sounds - Mike has said forever that he dug it, but the story always is that he hated it. Badman even tries to claim that Mike hated the second side of Today! Mike vs. progression does not hold true to me.

The thing about Mike being pushed out is another good one - the guy (and I'm no huge fan of him and the attitue he projects) was humble enough that he sat there throughout Pet Sounds and the SMiLE sessions, as the non-instrument playing singer, and saw next-to-no vocals coming his way. There's some element of good grace there. I know I'd be pissed if I were minimized in that way.

I'm not convinced that Mike wasn't pissed at being minimized.

Yeah, and that sort of goes back to something else that someone posted where Brian agrees with the interviewer with 'Yes' or 'No' answers. For twenty years, Brian said the music was 'inappropriate', 'I was drugged out', or whatever the excuses. Never that I remember did he call any one specific person out. Then, all of a sudden at the moment that the album finally comes out and there's a big buildup for it, he says what people have been wanting him to say all along, that 'Mike didn't like it'. Really?

And, I do kind of think VDP comes off at being overly critical. I know that he has hurt feelings over the  whole thing still, I mean who wants to be told by someone that their lyrics are nonsense? However, how many times has Mike Love come out and said 'You know, Van Dyke Parks is an idiot. He's an asshat, and I don't like him'. Not as many times as VDP has gone out of his way to talk bad about Mike. Although the portrayal of VD in the Beach Boys movie a few years back was a bit over the top.

And as far as Smiley Smile goes, there's an interview of Mike by Derek Taylor-it's on page 140 of LLVS:

DT: How about the album?
ML: We are finishing it now. We knew the title and the  songs months ago. Only Brian played the tapes again a few times and found it necessary to skip some songs. That's what happened. Capitol finished the sleeve in April already. I don't know how many sleeves they can throw out now, just because the lineup of songs and some songs have changed completely'.

Which kind of lends credence to the thought process that SMiLE and Smiley Smile are the the same album-there really wasn't this whole idea of 'SMiLE is one album and Smiley is another one'. They're both one in the same, although created entirely differently. And there's no way that anyone could think SS is more commercial than SMiLE. Remember, Mike is a businessman. It couldn't seem like good business to talk about 'thowing out' record sleeves, or waiting any longer than necessary to get product out.

It was in the script....
Seriously I think Brian has been told that so he thinks it.
As far as Badman goes he got that from Brian's dubious book. Never ever has Mike said anything really bad about Today or even about Pet Sounds. Here is a quote that is the only question I ever heard him raise about Today. It again shows he was willing to conform to Brian's ideas even if he didn't quite get them.

From the Beach Boys Today album you co-wrote a beautiful song with Brian called "Please Let Me Wonder."

I remember wondering about the title. Not relating to the title so great but writing the verses.
That's it, it hardly equates to Mike hating the side.

In fact Mike went out of his way to say nice things about him personally. I still don't get why An American Family is seen as making him look bad. He's not Brian's pusher, the lines (even if taken from later statements) are often his, and he was part of the whole scene. In fact I thought he came off as damn funny in it. In the Smile scene Mike is seen belittling him so why is it Van Dyke that looks bad? Don't get me wrong AAF is bad in many ways but I don't see the problem in this case.

That's probably something that Van would have to be asked. Perhaps he felt like the character was nothing but a one-dimensional caricature. The first scene where Van appears, the dialogue is colorful in a Parksian way which is good. The next line in the scene, however has "Tommy Shaffer" saying  with a laugh "I'm stoned and I don't understand what he's saying". It kind of makes Van look like a supprting character in a Cheech and Chong movie. All of which is to set up the Posse and by extension the 60's counter culture as nothing more but drug addled idiots. For some one like Parks who WAS sincere about 60's idealism, I can totally understand why he would have been greatly upset by that portrayal. At one time he thought the BB were  the perfect platform for the ideas of SMiLE,, so to him seeing them arm to arm with Reagan and Bush had to have been disheartening.

I don't want to put myself on the anti-Mike side or the pro-Mike side, but one thing I'd like to chime in with...I'm not a regular reader of their magazine but in 2004 Mike was interviewed by MOJO in which he said he was not really opposed to Smile, said that he liked and respected VDP's work, but again the non-commercial thing and that he didn't mind the music. Van Dyke wrote in to MOJO in a bit of a protest, calling his statements "revisionism" and said unequivocally that Mike's hostility to said album was indeed the main reason it shelved. I don't think that Mike responded, but I'm not sure.

One thing that I'm sure about with SMiLE is that nothing is black or white. NOTHING.

And just to say one more thing: Carl stated in IJWMFTT that he loved the lyrics, Alan told I think Goldmine (I never read the interview but Carlin mentioned it in Catch a Wave[ which I recently re-read) that he was a willing participant and only commented negatively on making pig noises; Dennis is widely credited as praising it and Bruce mentioned a few positive comments in Endless Harmony. So whenever anyone says that 'the group' was against SMiLE I kinda feel like raising an eyebrow.

When Brian was giving lots of interviews to promote the release of BWPS, Mike, Carl and Dennis were named as those who 'hated Smile'or 'were against it'. I don't remember about Bruce, but Al was spared of Brian's wrath. So were Blondie, Ricky and David.  ;D

Yeah, I was all like WTF?! Dennis was Brian's biggest supporter back then.

Bad day for Brian, I guess.

Well from what I have seen of Loren Dargo he was a Cheech and Chong character.  Maybe Van does have idealism, but it's that nasty letter to Mojo that TdHabib mentioned that made me change my mind about him. I respect his work but I think he comes off snide. Look even at the 1971 Rolling Stone interview. In it he's kind of putting Brian down, he seemed kind of bitter even then. Tony Asher was if anything worse if his quotes were accurite in the 1975 Nick Kent article and the Gaines book.,I like his work even more, but that doesn't mean he respected Brian as a person, and Marilyn mentioned him as someone she didn't like around. I'm not saying the Beach Boys were always the most understanding people either, but I think there was love there, and they were with him through the whole thing. 
As far as politics that's their choice either way. I mean if we want to talk about that let me point out Mike in 1992 said he wasn't voting for Bush because he didn't agree with his ecological policy. Brian said he voted for McCain this year, but should it really matter? It doesn't to me.

In the Anderle/Williams interview, Anderle says that of all the BB's, and I think that includes Brian too, Mike was the one who understood what he (Anderle) was trying to do the most, as far as the business side of things.

One thing from the aforementioned article that sticks out to me is Anderle's assertion that the BB's had a kind of humor that not everyone would think is cool-I can't remember the exact words, but it seems like it was something along the lines of how they had a kind of 'high school humor', and that's what you hear on Smiley.  I can't help think sometimes that Anderle, VDP, etc. sort of thought of themselves as the 'cool kids', and the BB's were the 'losers'. That may be extreme, at least on Anderle's part because he has praised the other guys in the band before. You get the idea, though. Those guys were part of a circle of people that were considered 'hip', and the BB's were 'square'. And I think that to this day, VDP still feels that way a little bit.

I've often thought that the reason VDP has been so upset with Mike all these years wasn't because of 1 or 2 comments about lyrics. I thought (assumed) that there was a number of things that went on that piled up, causing VD to have all this agression towards ML. However, could it be that all this time VD has been pissed because of a couple of comments about his lyrics? At that time, he was a young kid who everyone was talking about in terms of 'cool, hip, etc'.  To have someone all of a sudden question some of the things you're writing can be a blow to your ego. For all we know Mike could have questioned him in front of a bunch of people, embarassing VD so much that to this day he still feels embarassed about it. I don't know, they more I look at it, VD seems to be drinking wine made from sour grapes.

And another thing-I don't buy this VDP thing about The Beatles stealing ideas from SMiLE. Maybe they heard the tracks, but to sort of throw this idea out there that they heard the tracks and that gave them these ideas that they used on Sgt Pepper seems kind of a stretch, especially when it seems to be they would give Brian credit. The Beatles weren't angels, but as far as saying who their influences were and where they got ideas from, they've always been pretty honest about that-at least,  I think they have.

Losers?  Like running into a toilet and exclaiming they've never seen a turd that big (Mike)?  Like walking up to people and farting (Brian)?  And I think you're right about VDP.  Depending on the interview, he can be quite dismissive of pre-SMiLE stuff.  I'm paraphrasing wildly but he has - on occasion - said it's all doo-wah-diddy stuff. There is an element of seeing Brian as a uniquely talented but malleable 'project' by a less talented but intellectually hip bunch of people. And Brian, as he so often does, fell for it.  And when the going got tough, they all jumped ship, leaving our boy like, uh, a cork on the ocean.

Wow, a full-blown SMiLE thread to end/begin the year!

I'm not piling on Van Dyke Parks (although his interviews always bother me), but I need clarification on something. I thought I read somewhere (David Leaf's book?) that one of the main - if not THE main - reasons Parks left Brian/SMiLE was because he (Parks) signed a contract for a solo album and left to start that project. Does anybody have a timeline on that signing/recording?

I hate to say this because it reflects more poorly on Brian than it does on Mike, but...

Brian sold Van Dyke out. Brian was the one who called Van to try and "explain" lyrics to Mike. Brian knew Mike would have a sh*t fit and (whether he knew it or not) basically set Van up to be humiliated. Like a lot of people who have been ousted from the group's inner circle, it shouldn't  come as a shock that Van would have some bitterness about the experience.

I think Brian first thought he should be hipper, and then he hired/aproached Anderle, Van Dyke, Vosse, Loren etc.


I think that if Van Dyke had been a successful solo artist, the Smile demise would bother him a lot less.


Those Beatles quotes by Van Dyke are just nuts. Embarassing. They are his Hall of Fame speech.  ;D


I think it's very clear that Van Dyke just couldn't sit around doing nothing till Brian finished the album. Was he rewriting lyrics frenzly in 1967? By the way, I don't blame Van Dyke for betting on a solo career. If Brian needed a new lyric, he could just call him and it would be done. Easily. van Dyke didn't need to be on hold 24/7 to have the project finished. The 'abscence' of VD hurting Smile is just more bullmerda from Brian IMO.

I think Brian had a problem in caring too much about what people thought, and another problem in not caring about people.

We can look at it two ways: Brian was human and/or he was as much of an asshole as any other Beach Boy. The former sounds more forgiving and understanding.

Wow....great thread, and very thoughtful posts.

I think everybody here is right...that is to say, Mike had a lot to do with SMILE being shelved IMHO, but you can't "blame" it on him. The way things were going down at the time were not something he could get behind.  And -- I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet -- Brian's communication skills were probably not the greatest, and he may not have articulated to the guys WHY they were spending eight months on an album.  That is a very dangerous thing to try and pull off.   You may run the band and have absolute control but people have a breaking point.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to grow musically and do what you need to do as an artist, but if you alienate your in-house supporters (and Brian may well have alienated everybody in the band, not just Mike), then you're asking for trouble.

All this stuff is basic Band 101...rock bands are political entities; imagine being married to five people.  That's just what it's like.  Now think of the different kinds of personalities and negotiations that go on in a marriage, depending on different peoples' roles and needs.  Expanding it further, I think the hipster angle is a very astute observation.  Life is a lot like high school in that regard and the artistic community REALLY functions this way.  Witness the fact that it took until the late '80s (later, really) for the "Brian is a Genius" meme to really take hold.  Brian's the ultimate hipster now, but it took nearly 30 years for that to happen.

If Brian really was going to progress after PET SOUNDS, he probably needed to throw Mike overboard and/or go solo.  Not a diss at Mike, but Mike had a certain thing he wanted to protect and he needed to keep Brian on the reservation to do that.  Brian likewise probably couldn't go where he wanted to go with Mike riding shotgun.  But Brian tossing Mike or the Beach Boys completely aside wasn't realistic because of the family dynamic, and because Brian probably wasn't emotionally moored enough to make that kind of break, and really, who would be in that situation?  Add in Brian's other issues and there's no way that could happen.  So basically we arrived at an impasse where Brian just withdrew, with no path forward, and a basic misunderstanding and difference of vision that plagued the band ever since.

It's tragic, but it's not that surprising given the people involved.  But that's how bands work, y'know?  The reason the Beatles ruled weren't just that they were gifted creators, but they were four guys who were, for most of their careers, all paddling the boat in the same direction, pooling their individual talents very effectively as a group.  When that stopped happening, they split up fairly soon afterward and moved on with their lives.  Very different situation from the Beach Boys'.

This again?  You guys haven't found enough enigmas wrapped inside riddles - which is all this is? We all know that by now, don't we?

Well here are two more for you.  Van Dyke and Mike may have gone at each other over the years over who kilt Smile and who's hipper than who with acid alliteration, but nevertheless during that time VDP got the BB signed to Warners, played and sang on the "Surfs Up" LP, made Brian write SOS, and played accordion on Kokomo, all the while mainitaining some kind of cordial working relationship with all the various factions - a tribute to his politesse, it's true, but he could have been really temperamental and just walked away for good.  But he didn't. While his solo career was no great shakes, he's been in demand over the years, and has certainly had a career to be proud of, if not as well known as the careers of some others.

And for Brian, one of his now-known biggest sticking points back then was: he recorded all these fragments, now how do they fit together?  As songs?  A suite?  Banded tracks or segues?  All in all an exponentially more difficult job than GV, and THAT took a few months to gel.   Now BWPS is (to my mind, unfairly) slammed on this board as being just a Darian fanmix.  But maybe in 1966 Brian needed a collaborator - a Darian-like person, or some George Martin or Teo Macero supervisor-type -  - to put the thing together in SOME form and let Brian OK or scrap/change it.  Then he could go "no, this goes with THIS and THAT goes HERE and we can move all THIS to THERE..." - much easier when the scut work has been done for you in advance.  If Brian had thought to take that burden off his shoulders, the thing mighta got finished.  AND YET:  he was basically working alone. It was Brian's decision (and no one else's) NOT to do that, NOT to ask for any help that way, HE was the Artist and all anyone knew to do was to say how fantastic it all was as he juggled acetates.

Gee, how about his COLLABORATOR, Van Dyke Parks? Oh, that's right, Van Dyke left because his feelings were hurt - or - he took the money (for a solo album) and ran. You know, it's amazing. Van Dyke Parks had very little good things to say about Mike Love, yet, he (VDP) valued (?) Mike's opinions of his lyrics so much that he got so upset and took his ball and went home.

Eh, I don't think Van Dyke could have done what Darian did. He was a fresh ear to bounce ideas off of, sure, but I do agree with the original post in that Brian became buried under all these pieces of music and he needed someone

I don't think it's all that fair to fault VDP for "taking the money and running." I recall him saying, at one point, that he felt his lyrics and involvement in Smile were not only causing problems for a band, but were causing problems for a family, something he didn't want to do. Also, like someone else pointed out earlier: Brian probably isn't a master of communication and unintentionally sort of threw VDP under the bus when Mike began questioning Parks' lyrics.

I'm not calling VDP an angel or anything, but I think those are just reasons to step out.

Right! I was thinking of this today. If Brian had this great faith in what he was doing, why did he need VD to come to the studio to explain the lyrics? Because he was unsure himself if he was doing the right thing. He already had doubts about the album-the other guys questioning of it was sort of the icing on the cake. What is it he says in the Siegel interview, 'People can get hung up on words-maybe they work, maybe they don't'. That doesn't sound like someone very sure about what he's doing.

According to VDP website, he signed his deal to WB in '66 and Song Cycle came out in '67. However, upon scouring the 'net, I've seen two release dates for the album-November '68 and, according to VDP's website, sometime in '67.

I stand by my thesis:  Brian never ASKED Van Dyke to do that.  He didn't WANNA ask.  He was the super-genius producer guy.  That was HIS CHOICE, his call.   And Van Dyke says he considered himself to be Brian's employee, not his equal.   So he did not feel it was his place to offer to help in the assembly, dot was not his yob.  (Should he have offered to help anyway? I'll let all the cognoscenti here chew on that.  As for me, it's Miller time.)

There's a reason we pay attention to what Anderle, Vosse, VDP, Marilyn and those people say - they were there, and we weren't.  Marilyn may adore Brian but she doesn't hesitate to criticize him as a father and as a husband, and rightly so.  I don't believe any of those people would exaggerate something to make Brian look better just because they are Brian boosters - they've all been burned by Brian in some way, after all.  I TOTALLY believe Brian is telling the truth when he says Mike didn't like Smile - Van Dyke and Anderle have confirmed it, and Mike, as much as he tries to put his slant on it (it was just some of they lyrics he objected to, he liked the music), made clear his opposition to Van Dyke's participation.  Mike was hostile to Van Dyke and the Smile collaboration, and for good reason - as Sheriff John Stone pointed out, Mike was losing his position in the band, as vocalist and lyric writer, with Pet Sounds and Smile.  That meant MONEY (songwriting royalties) out of his pocket and diminishing influence and loss of his role on stage as "lead singer."  Other collaborators with Brian including roger Christian, Gary Usher, and tony Asher have all said Mike was not happy with their roles, so why would Van Dyke be any different?  Only in that his more "bizarre" lyrics were more open to criticism than the other lyricists' efforts.

The idea that because Mike sang the lyrics he approved of them or it was no big deal is a fallacy - Mike has repeatedly said he didn't understand the crow cries lyrics and Brian calling Van Dyke to explain them, and his inability to essentially aborted the Smile project.  Van Dyke went on to do Song Cycle, only coming back to help Brian try to finish Heroes and Villains, the single, which Mike didn't seem to object to.  But if you examine the "explain the lyrics" incident, you can see that Brian had admitted defeat and clearly was doubting the lyrics himself - because why couldn't Brian explain the lyrics?  If Brian didn't understand them, didn't that concede that Mike was right that the listening public wouldn't understand them?  There wasn't any reason to call Van Dyke at that point - Mike had won.  And Van Dyke must have sensed that immediately, because if no one in the group dug the lyrics or understood the point of them, what explanation would have satisfied them?

Mike sang the lyrics because he was desperate to get more vocals on the album, after being almost shut out of Pet Sounds.  Same reason he was jumping up and down and volunteering to sing Al's parts on Hang onto your ego.  That doesn't mean he wasn't going to criticize the lyrics.  He did refuse to sing "sunny down snuff" in December as part of Heroes, and it wasn't put back in until the Smiley sessions when Mike did sing it - Brian didn't even try to include it in the cantina version in February.  Mike went on to ridicule the line in the Leid in Hawaii "after session" and in concert with the Beach Boys over the past ten years.  And he can't have been happy that initially he and Brian shared the lead vocal for Heroes, and sang the cantina section, only to have Brian cut his part on the verses out completely and take over the cantina lead as well.

I think Mike's hostility and the doubt it created in Brian's mind AND Brian's inability to explain Smile to the band (someone mentioned Brian's difficulty in communicating, and that was a large part of it - the Boys were doing bits and pieces of vocals in sections, not even sure what song they were doing at times as sections changed, and Brian wasn't helping matters in demonstrating he had a firm handle on what he was doing) killed smile.  Van Dyke's inability to win over Mike and the rest of the Beach Boys as to the commercial prospects of Smile didn't help matters, but I believe the project would have been aborted no matter what Van Dyke had said to Mike and the others.

Can't agree with the ol' saw that Brian didn't know how he wanted what he was recording to fit together because he noted and called out what each recording was for and where its place was as he recorded them.

I still don't get why we are hunting for someone to blame, there is no blame.  Brian did exactly what he wanted to do regardless of what anyone else did or said and in one way or another just let everyone lump it as he did what he wanted; VDP, the Boys, the Posse, Capitol, they all could and did just lump it while Brian spent and delayed and did and re-did as he pleased in his own way and time.

Don't think I said Brian was unaware what went where in the recording process -- more accurate to say, he kept changing his mind.  Hence the parties where he would, as I said, juggle acetates and wow his audience with one sequence, which they'd pronounce good, then he'd do a different juggle, which they'd pronounce good, etc.

I think we can all agree on that, good post...

And also Van Dyke did come back in April 67 to work on "Vegetables," that needs to be said. Anyone know more about that?

This post wasn't started as a post to try and 'blame' somebody, because if you want to do that, really, all of them are to 'blame'.

I was making a post about the fact that for many years, I always believed that SMiLE was never finished because of the other boys, particularly Mike Love. I don't know if I really buy that anymore. Was he part of it? Yes, just like the lawsuit, Brian's mind going in a million different directions, the other guys- along with Brian- maybe not getting the lyrics. I don't think he's anymore responsible than anything else. Also, sometimes I think we tend to forget that they were just young guys with big ego's, and that probably played just as big a role as anything else.

Van Dyke Parks was "a fresh ear to bounce ideas off of"? Well, yeah, he was WRITING THE IDEAS! He was the collaborator! If anybody could've helped Brian fit the pieces together, it would've been Van Dyke Parks. While Parks' main role was lyricist, he also had abilities as a musician, arranger, and producer.

I must admit I never read the quote (although I'm not doubting it) that Van Dyke left because he was causing problems for a band and for a family. I never viewed his leaving as an altruistic gesture.

Everybody has their theories....When Brian and Van Dyke were working, they got things done - in a hurry. When Van Dyke left, things stopped getting done - in a hurry. Maybe if Van Dyke would've hung in there, he could've helped Brian  - in many ways -  to get the album finished. It's interesting how we are trying to find the reasons for SMiLE being scrapped, but the only two people who actually gave up on it, in its original conception, oddly enough - were Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks.

The band had the wrong vibe, man. Smile was like a circle, man, like life, you know, Nietzche's "eternal recurrence", and the band were squares. How does a square fit with a circle? So, man, Brian couldn't do SMiLE. Not unless the band were circles, and that's the truth, as far out as it seems. Loren Schwartz told me.

Mike's opinion only mattered when Brian made it matter, building up a confrontation between him and Van Dyke. I don't think Brian was that frail and innocent. He knew exactly what he was doing. Sure, he didn't twist Mike's arm to make him whine about lyrics, and didn't force Van Dyke to answer in a snide way. But those were dudes were predictable.

Van Dyke's quote about leaving for the sake of family harmony is total bullshit in my opinion. Brian started to rerecord Heroes and Villains ad eternum and he didn't have anything to do. Unless he was given co-producing credits - impossible - what was his role in the project? Writing lyrics. H&V already had lyrics. Brian was trying to extract a single from hours of H&V, which he could never do. It's not a single. It's not the proper follow-up to Good Vibrations. It got better with the chorus nicked from Worms, but too little, too late. Someone should have told Brian: "hey, if you wanna a single, write one. It's not here in this album". Maybe he was told. Maybe he tried and couldn't, just like he couldn't for the last 42 years after Good Vibrations.

Where were we? Oh yeah. Smile. Was Brian was forced to abandon the project because of the circumstances? Hmm, I don't think so. But hey, almost no one believes Mike killed Smile anymore, with the exception of David Leaf. I shouldn't complain.  :-D

Ok, I can't argue with the fact that when VD wasn't around anymore, things stagnated. BUT... What if he sensed the stagnation - and Brian's weird behaviour in cancelling sessions because of bad vibes - and decided to take care of his own business, his own projects?

Another thing - he didn't move to New York, Lybia or Moskow. He was in LA, and all Brian had to do was call him.

Van Dyke did NOT come back in April to work on Vegetables - he's not on any session sheets as participating in recording at that time.  In Priore's book van Dyke remembers working on Vegetables but it's the November "cornucopia" version he was at, not the April sessions.

Another thing needs to be said again is that Brian didn't really go into a major decline right after Smile. That's all bull crap, an easy excuse as to why the records weren't hitting like they were before. Various journalists and Beach Boys have used that because it's a simple out. Through the 1971 Surf's Up sessions Brian was there more then not, played the occasional show, and even kept writing and producing for other artists. I still contend Brian was more normal in 67-71 then anytime later. Carlin certainly paints it that way, and even Leaf does to an extent.

I have a Beach Boys book where Al explicitly states that Cabin Essence should never have been released. I'm not exactly sure when he said it, but I remember it was a quote that was dated from the 1970's.

He said that in the Byron Priess book, but he said it shouldn't have been released on 20/20. He said it was something that needed to wait for it's own time. I guess he meant on a Smile comp.

Thanks a bunch...sorry I was mistaken.

In the 'Catch a Wave' book, VD is quoted as saying that he felt like all of the social things that were going on ( Vegetable arguments, staged arguments in the studio) were hurting the creative process. Also, he stayed far away from the Mrs. O'Leary's Cow sessions, didn't he? I think he sensed that there was something amiss in Brian's world.

VD has also made a point of saying that he owes Brian a lot-he was a guy at the time bouncing from session to session, never really given a chance to write lyrics for a major artist. Then Brian hears him talking, decides he wants him to write lyrics for the new album (which VD has said something like 'BB albums were a guaranteed number of sales') buys him a car, and tells him he will split half of the royalties with him (at least I'm pretty sure it was half). VD was at a point where money was hard to come by, and Brian appears and offers him a chance to make a lot of money. I'm sure that to this day, he still feels he owes Brian a lot.

I no fan of Mike as a person, but I think the blame has to lie with Brian. As pointed out, Mike may have objected to the lyrics, but he did sing them. I think Mike was frustrated that Brian couldn't stay focused on finishing things, shifting from one song to another while finishing very little of anything.

Plus Brian did have lots of sycophants around, and maybe Mike felt that with Murry not around, somebody had to tell Brian to cut the merda, and that person was going to be him.

But again, I think a big problem is that Brian couldn't finish and kept changing things around. I think if Brian had ever said something like, "We're going to work every day this week on vocals and stay as long as we have so we can be done with the whole album by Friday and give it to Capitol," that Mike and the other guys would have been relieved and gladly sung Van Dyke's eccentric lyrics.

Ahhhhhhhhhh, it's The Newly-Repackaged, Spit-Shined, Vacuum-Packed, Bullshit-Ridden THREAD!!!!!!!!!

So, uh, whatdoyamean?  :)

Carl saying he liked Van Dyke's lyrics is not the same thing as Carl supporting and liking the Smile project - it may seem like nitpicking, but he could have admired and liked the lyrics and at the same time felt the lyrics/music was not commercial and not appropriate for the Beach Boys to do and release (and then have to tour behind).  Which is ultimately what Brian decided since he aborted the project.  My feeling is that Carl withdrawing or not offering support in the face of Mike's objections really swayed Brian - Carl was in the studio with Brian a lot and grew increasingly concerned Brian was unable to finish the project or even finish the next single.  Carl wrote out the infamous track list and apparently was much more involved with trying to finish Smile and then anything (like a single, then Smiley smile) than we assume.

Interesting points, Bicyclerider. When the scrapping of SMiLE is discussed, Mike Love's name is usually the first one mentioned, and Carl Wilson is usually left out of the discussion. But, when you think about it, who's opinion do you think Brian would've valued the most - the non-musician, commercial-thinking, stick to the formula Mike Love, or the brother and "right-hand man", Carl Wilson, who Brian prayed with before the sessions?

Had Smile been released in the first half of 1967, Carl would have been the one who saved the day. He was the Glimpses guy who actually had a chance to make it happen.

I don't understand where you're faulting him. Trying to help to finish an album you've been working on for almost a year, what's so evil about it?

Not to speak for Bicyclerider, but wanted to respond....Is it possible that Carl was walking the same thin line that Mike was walking? That is, maybe they were trying to do the best they could - whether it be singing (in Mike's case) or helping in the studio (in Carl's case) - but their hearts weren't really in it. And Brian sensed it.....

It's possible. But when you WANNA do something, almost nothing matters, and when you don't, every little reason counts.

If Brian was that concerned about Mike's feelings, California Girl's credits would read (Wilson - Love) in SD&SN. But alright, Brian being the kind of person he was, I can see how he felt like punishing Mike for being Mike and at the same time got terribly hurt when his cousin wasn't totally supportive of his new project.

No argument here, D.B. I was just trying to suggest another scenario/theory that might explain Brian's state of mind around that time.

I wasn't "faulting" Carl - just suggesting that Carl was more involved with the Smile project than any other Beach Boy besides Brian, and if Carl either explicitly or be saying nothing tacitly agreed with or supported Mike's reservations about the project, it would weigh heavily on Brian.

I don't see where Brian was "punishing" Mike - he was pursuing his artistic muse and he felt he couldn't do that with Mike as his sole collaborator.  That bothered and hurt Mike (financially and with his position in the group) but hurting him I'm sure was the farthest thing from Brian's mind.  By aborting smile Brian was actually capitulating to Mike and giving him back his position in the group (collaborating with him on songs for Smiley and releasing a single credited to "Brian Wilson and Mike Love" - you don't think that was a reward for Mike and essentially "penance" for Brian?).

Unfortunately it's usually not that simple.  Having been involved in music projects myself, I can attest that even if you really want to do something and believe in it, continual lack of support (not to mention opposition) from important bandmates, friends, etc. can really drag you down and make you doubt something you know is good.  I think Brian suffered from that combined with the loss of a collaborator who could truly help tie all of SMiLE together.  According to interviews with Brian from back in the day, VDP was helping with music on occasion in addition to being the lyricist.  (And, of course, Brian needed him a few years back to finish BWPS.)  With VDP no longer committed to the original project, there wasn't anyone else who could help Brian bring his grand vision to final fruition.  Carl and Dennis may have started some things around this time (e.g. "Tones"), but in '67 the complexity of the SMiLE music was just too much for them to help bring together.  They wouldn't gain the necessary skills until later.

I don't think Brian stopped wanting to do SMiLE right away after he "junked" it.  I think that came a little later.  Rather, I think he gave up temporarily because he didn't see a way to make it happen like he'd originally envisioned.  I have a feeling that if H&V had met with more commercial success, he might've been motivated to go back to it.  And if Wild Honey or Friends had somehow taken off, Brian might well have felt empowered and returned to SMiLE even later.

Ok


Ok, "punish"was too harsh a word. Let's say that Mike was Hawthorne and dorky. Brian wanted to leave dorkiness and Hawthorne behind. Including his own.

After 1964, McCartney always had a left-handed electric guitar in the studio, which pissed Harrison off. You could say those were McCartney songs, his artistic muse, his right to say who was gonna play lead guitar. While others could say that atittudes like this were what made the Beatles break up, little by little.

Of course George would never flat out demand to be the official lead guitarist in every Beatles track. And Mike couldn't flat out demand to be the sole lyricist. And Brian couldn't flat out demand that the group should love every tiny bit of music that he produced. Groups can be a drag.


No, he was solving HIS problem. "How the hell do I sequence this album? Where's the single? What if it bombs?" Smiley Smile solved it, and quick. I don't, for one second, believe that he decided to shelf anything for the sake of Mike, or Carl, or Dennis, or anyone in the world.

For Gettin' Hungry and Wild Honey, Mike was still around, basically because he had no better professional perspectives. Van Dyke, Anderle, Vosse, Schwartz etc had, or thought they had.

Of course it's not that simple. I wouldn't expect to sum Smile - and solve THE THREAD - in two sentences.  ;D

But it's part of the big picture, as much as opposition, drugs, family, Capitol lawsuit etc.

I DO believe Brian shelved Smile for the sake of group and family harmony - at least that's what Van Dyke says, and I believe him.  But he ALSO shelved it because Brian stopped believing in it (Van Dyke being off doing his own thing didn't help there), and because he realized he couldn't finish it and a single in a reasonable amount of time (Capitol/Brother Records pressure for product, drug use and incipient mental illness).  You're right, Smiley was the solution - both a quickie minimalist production that delivered a record AND a group production/effort that eschewed studio musicians and reinforced the family ethos of the group.  And gave Mike more of a role.  Wild Honey was the Solution Part 2 - some Mike leads, songs written with Mike, songs that could be easily reproduced on stage.

Just can't buy it, Brian didn't change to please people, people changed to please Brian. You can hear it all over the recordings. You hear about it in the frcition between Brian and VDP. You see it in Capitol sitting on their hands waiting for something, anything whenever Brian got around to it. You see it how Brian bagged some of the Posse. The engineers bending rules for Brian. Brian ran roughshod over the group making SMiLE and then ran roughshod over them to bag it over their objections because he wanted to bag it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Smiley had more to do with costs now being fronted by Brothers more than anything about inter-group politics.

Van Dyke also says that the Beatles sneaked in LA studios in the middle of the night to steal his concepts.  ;D

The problem with van Dyke's quote is that it's too perfect - for his own sake. He left the project in an altruistic gesture, Brian shelved it in a altruistic gesture... I guess that makes the Beach Boys some insensitive sons of a bitch who couldn't understand high art even if their career depended on it, right?

When we say that Mike wanted a bigger role as a lyricist and lead singer, I think it's totally normal. And at least he had proved that he could be great in both roles. There's no need to elevate his attitude to any higher level than the fact that he was standing for himself. Sure, don't expect to have him admiting it in interviews... And the same goes for those who are still alive: Brian, Van Dyke etc.

Now, Brian. What makes you believe he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony? The same guy who ditched new-best-friends as easily as he took naps? Not to mention his detachment from family later on, which certainly can't be all justified by mental illness. He doesn't have to be a hero, a martyr, a victim. He can be Mike Love.

Wow, I just put down Brian to Mike's level. Real Beach Boy, who says nothing new happens in the Thread?  :-D

It was totally normal, wasn't it? Which is why I defend Mike so much. I mean, yeah, I wish Mike would've "gotten" SMiLE, would've appreciated it, would've encouraged it. But he didn't. And I don't hold any ill feelings toward him for it - because I KNOW I would've been just like him. I would've reacted the same way. I wonder how many others would've reacted like Mike, if they were in his shoes? At that time in 1966? But won't admit it. 20/20 hindsight is great isn't it?

You're wrecking the story! Brian was a sad genius who was shat upon. Mike's the asshole. Dennis was cute, sensitive and a genius, to boot. Carl's a peacemaking saint. Al is short. Stick to the fucking formula!

Nice one Luther!  ;D

If I was in any of the band members positions when faced with the SMiLE project, I would've probably reacted worse than they did.
People seem to defend any Brian does because he's a genius; but he was turning into a major drug addict. I wouldn't bet my career on following a drug addict, and at the same time watch my brother or cousin sink that low. I would have walked away from SMiLE myself.

I do love Mike, but the way I view it is this, Mike was at the time (by sunflower I feel he changed) a money obsessed tool, he had no musical vision, all he saw was chicks, fame and money. When he heard SMiLE all he heard was change, something that doesn't sound like regular Beach Boys, something not 'commercial', his support would of helped Brian, would it of saved SMiLE who knows.

But he did sing his lines (very well), and for that he should get Kudos.

All he saw was chicks, fame, and money. You got a problem with that? ;D

You're probably right, but, wasn't Dennis, and maybe another Beach Boy or two? And a couple thousand other rock and rollers! Seriously, change is a difficult thing, ESPECIALLY when you're experiencing success. I wouldn't have wanted to go from "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations" to "Do You Like Worms". How about you?

All he saw was chicks, fame, and money.
You got a problem with that?

(http://www.greatgodpan.com/Mike_Love_1.jpg)

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One thing people never factor into these things I feel is that Mike, as well as Brian, is also really competitive. Of course, he is, look at his "R n R Hall of Fame" rant. He's not a stupid man, and I cannot believe that he'd think that doing fun-in-the-sun stuff while the Beatles pull out Revolver and Pepper would keep them where they were. It would be the experimental, not the usual old stuff, that would give them status. They'd seen the Marksmen, the Sunrays, all those guys fall away; if Brian - who hadn't steered them wrong yet during an era when the goalposts changed every two weeks - assured them that this would be the way to avoid going the way of those surf groups, he'd have listened.

He didn't want the old stuff. He wanted the new stuff, but he wanted it out in the stores. Not sat endlessly in the studio.

I don't understand how people can get on his back for that stupid HoF speech and all the jealousy and rivalry it contained, and then say, "Ah, but in 1967 he wanted them to do I Get Around Part II, that would've stood up to Strawberry Fields and Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby? LOLZ!!!". It's one or the other. And his objection with SMiLE was that it wasn't happening quick enough, not that it was. I'm sure of it.

I think he would go out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony because Brian hated conflict and did everything he could to avoid it - always has.  He changed the lyrics to Hang on to you ego because of it.  He toured for years despite hating it because of it.  He put up with his father as manager and "producer" for far too long because of it.  He was hypersensitive to criticism and almost gave away Good Vibrations as a song because of it.  He gave up Redwood because of it.  So yeah, he would definitely go out of his way.  But I never said that was the ONLY reason Smile was aborted - it was more complicated than that. 

It's not like Mike got everything his way in 1966, is it? When Brian does what we want - writing and recording Smile - we applaud him for following his artistic muse. Whe he doesn't - shelving Smile and recording Smiley Smile instead - then he must be caving in to outside pressure, avoiding conflict, going out of his way for the sake of group and family harmony, dumbing down arrangements so that the band could perform 'Wind Chimes' in Salt Lake City. He always wins, no wonder he's a genius.  :)

Ain't it strage that when it was announced that he would revisit Smile, no one suggested that he was avoiding conflict with his wife and manager?

But that's the thing, if the BB released "I Get Around" or "Help Me Rhonda" in 66 they would never of got to number 1, The BB would of been laughed at. The culture was ready for "Do You Like Worms" and "Good Vibrations".

Mike should of realised that, SMiLE was perfect for it's time, damn the whole culture was changing..But I digress, Mike was in no way the reason SMiLE was shelved, and he did sing his parts.

"Do You Like Worms" is just a funny name, that might well have changed. With the lyrics, it's a lot less weird, only about as weird as "Vibes" really.

1966 wasn't as progressive as you're all making it seem. The big Beatles hits from 1966 were We Can Work It Out and Yellow Submarine. Barbara Ann hit #2 in 1966.

Laughed at? Do you mean like they were laughed at with songs like "Darlin", "Do It Again", and "I Can Hear Music"?

Even though Brian thought/said that SMiLE was ahead of its time, and the public wasn't ready for it, I'll agree with you, SOME of the culture was ready for a "Do You Like Worms". But, sometime, take a look at the charts in late 1966 and 1967. There was still a lot of mainstream "pop" music at the top of the charts. The whole music culture hadn't suddenly gone psychedelic.

Look, you and I (and others) basically agree on the premise that Mike wasn't really to blame for the SMiLE debacle. There are some points we might disagree with on the way there, however. I don't think Mike was ready to change - yet - in late 1966. I try to see his point of view, I mean, it wasn't totally ignorant. You don't think another Spectorian masterpiece from Brian a la Summer Days & Summer Nights and/or Pet Sounds wouldn't have sold in 1967?

The wheel had turned or was about to turn by that point,, back to relative simplicity - John Wesley Harding, Lady Madonna, Jumpin' Jack Flash by the time these records were released.

I don't agree. Yes, you named a few exceptions by a few artists. But, you can't look at the music that was coming out of 1967 and 1968 and call it "simplistic". That was one of the most complex and creative periods in the history of rock & roll.

That being said, if Brian Wilson would've continued turning out masterpieces like the stuff he was doing in 1965 and 1966, and assuming the lyrics were kept "current", the Beach Boys would've absolutely continued to be at or near the top. And that, I believe, was Mike's basic premise.

Mike does admit he had a problem with some of the Smile lyrics. We don't need to turn him into a moron who wanted to release Son of I get Around and Fun Fun Fun part II into the late sixties.

"I Get Around", "Help Me Rhonda"and "Good Vibrations" were singles. "Do You Like Worms / Plymouth Rock" would have been an album track. That's how I look at them.

Ah, but the artists I named were THE prime movers. By early 1968, psychedelia was on the way down, and acoustic, bluesy, retro-styling were back in. The Boys were actually ahead of the pack by a month with Wild Honey. The Byrds were about to go country, and the Band were about to break big, causing Cream to split up as obsolete. The Who went Bo Diddley on "Magic Bus". There's nothing particularly "arty" on Beggars Banquet, or Revolution 9 aside, the White Album. Only cash-in one hit wonders like the Lemon Pipers were still messing around with phased sitars or mumbo-jumbo lyrics.

Brian either wrote or encouraged that ant Heroes rap done for Leid in Hawaii. He is heard laughing and singing on it. Brian was quoted at various as saying he loved the Smiley, Wild Honey, and Friends sessions. Desper among others would argue that the late sixties/early seventies was a great time for the group as a group. That group largely still included Brian who through 1970 wrote most of the songs. He wanted to work with Mike and the others. He liked Mike and the others. That's shocking isn't it, but true. I would say it was only in 1971 with the use of Surf's Up (really the first time the group went against Brian) and Dennis pulling his songs from release that the fissures start to appear. Even then it wasn't until drugs became a huge factor in 76-77 did the group truly stop working as a team.

What does all this mean? It means Brian ultimately did not understand nor support Smile himself. It also means that during the Beach Boys first decade he was (mostly happily) a big part of the group.

I believe that the greatest reason for Smile not being released was what was going on in Brian's head. There seemed to be a switch from confidence to parinoia. Thus believing his house was bugged by Phil Spector or his dad, and that Mrs OLeary's Cow started a fire down the street.  Honestly, I am not sure that the group support was much better for Pet Sounds. If you think about it, Pet Sounds came out of the blue. Where as by the end of 1966 the group had been succesful with Good Vibrations. I think that if Mike were to write lyrics, he would've written more GV or Wild Honey type lyrics then I Get Around or California Girls. Mike's jelousy aside, I don't believe that it had much to do with the cancelation of Smile.

At the time and in the years immediately after, before the Brian-as-victimized-genius mythos was developed, Brian made it abundantly clear that he bagged SMiLE for only his own musal and technique-cal reasons, which were numerous and plainly stated; for some reason we aren't able to accept Brian's reasons as his own.

That's because myths make for better stories.

In David Leaf's case, and other author's, yes.

But there is a human element working here. We want to praise, defend, thank, and feel sorry for Brian - because of what he gave us (i.e. the music which made our lives happier), and because of ultimately what happened to him. He IS a sympathetic figure, almost like a martyr if you will. Almost like the Muhammed Ali of music.

Mike, on the other hand, didn't write the music, didn't sing the "tender" parts on "Don't Worry Baby" and "The Lonely Sea", and, didn't fall apart. So, Mike doesn't get sympathy, doesn't get defended, and doesn't get the praise that maybe he deserves. And, Mike knows this, that is why he has been so vocal in recent years. As he likes to put it, he just wants "his due". Yes, Mike's personality is the opposite of the shy, humble, "do they really like me" Brian. So, Mike pays the price for that, too.

Hey, that's life; happens all the time. Maybe, in the end, the facts will dispel the myths. Discussions like this help. They're fun and interesting. too. :police:

you know, I was just watching the British BB documentary from 2004 and it offered a slightly different reason for Van Dyke leaving.  He says himself in the doc that he left when the music started to get really out.. like the fire session.. so not just the Mike/lyrics issue.

Gee, I wonder what changed his mind when he came back in 2003? Is it hot as hell or is it me? >:D

Because myths make for better stories.  ;)

I know I'm in a minority, but think the cause is more prosaic than dramatic. On one documentary, I saw Brian Wilson shrug and say "It was taking me on a trip I didn't want to go on." I think that pretty much sums it up. All the ego of Wilson, the trying-to-beat-the-Beatles bullmerda(what does that even mean?),  dealing with a dissatisfied record company, arguing with his own band,possibly including his brothers, on top of the fact that what he was attempting was extremely bewildering....No demons. No major breakdowns. No stay in the funny farm. No broken minds. Just "foda this merda--it ain't worth it" in the end.

But who knows? It makes for interesting reading.

After watching the movie "Walk Hard:  The Dewey Cox Story" I can't help but feel there's some similarity between the SMiLE sessions and the scene where the band breaks up over Dewey's "unfinished-experimental track."   :lol  He wanted a 1000 diggery-doos.  Haha!

Seriously...Mike-schmike, I think Brian probably got to be so annoying and flipped out -- A massive genius pain in the ass.  No doubt Mike would have loved to have Smile hit the shelves in Jan.  That's obvious.  I think all the enablers around Brian today were the same one's that got inside his head back then.  Telling Brian everything he wanted to hear.  Mike was, like, a narc to them.   ::)

Stupid hippies.  I think Marilyn could clear this ALL up, by the way.  Mike, who's certainly cocky and annoying all himself, was--for me--the other half of the Beach Boys.  At least 1/4, anyway.  Sure, the Wilson boys would have been fine by themselves, but Mike and Brian working together was one of the great creative pairs in music history.


For what it's worth...when playing BWPS awhile ago, someone commented to me -- "wow these lyrics are horrible,...the music's really good, but those lyrics..."

 ;)

I don't know which part they were reacting to, but there's moments when it is a tad stupid for me.  Just as when there's parts of Pet Sounds that are over the top, touchy-feely.  I think Mike and Brian, focused together were hands-down the best.  It would have been nice if Mike was given the opportunity to smooth out the many wrinkles in SMiLE, just he did with Good Vibrations.  Would have been a million-and-two seller!

 :3d  (i like smileys.)

Well, according to this thread, Lance, you're not in the minority. And, that might be one of the reasons A Million Units In Jan! started the topic. There are NUMEROUS reasons (you put a number on it! :P) why SMiLE was scrapped, but, to SINGLE OUT Mike Love, and vilify him for 41 years for it, well.....

Oh, am I not in the minority? Well then I'm changing my mind!  ;D  I agree it is unfair to single out Mike alone for that. There are plenty of other things that we can blame him for!!

Why Brian dropped SMiLE?
Brian dropped it because he could not finish it.  Once VDP left there was noboby in the band capable of completing it.  I suspect that if the band returned from Japan and walked into the studio and Brian told them the concept and layed it out for them it would have been finished - even if they didn't like it.

Did the Band Like SMiLE?
They did not know what SMiLE was.  All they had were a bunch of fragments and a few songs - none of which was commercial.  If Carl could have made it happen in 1971 he would have.  

Mike Love:
There are a lot of reasons to dislike him but the collapse of SMiLE is not one of them.  If I was in the band I would have been concerned too.  How could a four piece band (well 5 if you include Mike's sax) do any type of justice to the music?

What should have happened in Beautiful Dreamer:  Brian turns to the camera and says...




What did happened in Beautiful Dreamer:  Brian turns to the camera and says...


 ::)

Now that's a large font size.

Well, I have said it before many many times on this site, and I have stayed off this site after being attacked. But from everything I have been able to gather from all the reading and listening to interviews as well as talking to people who were there, here is my opinion of the SMiLE era.

1.) Except for Van Dyke and David Anderle, do ANY of these other people (Vosse, Darro, etc) sound like they are "enlightened" people? Lauren makes my skin crawl! Brian is suffering through a VERY BAD acid trip on drugs that you gave him, and all you can do is LAUGH? And then laugh about it 40 years later and say that the drugs and not his talent enabled him to write better songs? Are you freakin' kidding me. This guy is like an acid-tinged used car salesman. HE THINKS he inspired SMILE. HAH! As for the rest of the ass clowns, if I was in the Beach Boys and I saw this group hanging around Brian, I would be pissed as well. These are not GOOD PEOPLE! You don't have to take my word for it. Read interviews with them. They were hanger-ons at best, more sinister at worst.

2.) Someone who knows him well enough (and likes him) still tells me that Van Dyke is EXACTLY like Mike Love (but from the other end of the spectrum). He is as hurtful and cunning as anyone. He cuts with words instead of deeds. But he cuts.

3.) Mike Love (whom I have actually come to like...not alot...but some) was in a very very difficult spot in 1966. As the oldest of the group, I think he took on a paternal figure attitude towards everyone in the group. He was also brought up (as we now know) by a very disfunctional family, though not abusive like the Wilson's. He did what he could. I have had friends who ventured down some dark paths with "new" friends whom I tried to step in and help. I was called the square etc. And yet I was left to clean up after they had moved on. So I fell for Mike in that respect. The lawsuits, the lack of rehearsal time in the 1980s, that stuff was TOTALLY uncalled for, and was an affront to long suffering fans. I still am really pissed about his attitude on those issues.

Amen, petsite!

Bah, this sympathizing is getting a bit out of hand, I think. To me, it's clear the Brian suffered greatly from people around him not being open-minded enough, particularly his family. He tried to surround himself with open-minded friends, but from what we can gather from first and second hand reports, Brian wound up feeling either used or let down by these people. Just take Van Dyke. Sure, he says some nice things about Brian. At the same time, he sharply criticizes the "Fire" music (who doesn't like the "Fire" music?) and the scene around it (sorry, but I don't get what the big deal about fire hats is, it's not something unusual for an avant-garde artist to do) and all of Brian's little skits with his friends. You can hear Van Dyke acting a little snooty in the background during the vegetable argument skits, in fact. He also has made a lot of judgments about Brian's family publicly, such as he famously has with Mike. He was also paranoid about doing any pot smoking at Brian's house, because of the recent drug stings on celebrities. Another thing for him to look down on, on top of the sandbox and the tepee, which he also criticizes. In other words, Van Dyke appears to be somewhat judgmental and stuck up.

I don't think, in the end, he was the open-minded kind of person Brian was truly looking for, and it's part of why he set Van Dyke up against Mike. I think Brian was disappointed by both sides and wanted to see if they could work it out or if it would just blow up. It blew up, which was probably what Brian expected. Van Dyke and Mike were symbols for the greater problem Brian was suffering from,. I think he was worn out from the friction he experienced from both sides. His 'enlightened' drug friends were just as close-minded as his family in the end, just in a different way. Brian wanted to create a spiritual experience everywhere one could feel, and it was clear that Van Dyke was above communicating with "philistines". And Mike, while well-intentioned, was, I think, clueless when it came to understanding what Brian actually wanted from SMiLE.

Now, sure, Brian could have soldiered on anyway and made the album. Nothing was actually stopping him. Still, all of that drama can get exasperating. He just got sick of fighting for it. I think he was left feeling like no one was on his side, and he couldn't take it.

Dada, you're fair and balanced in your analysis of Van Dyke, Mike and the Vosse Posse.

But what about Brian? He could be as much of an amateur human being as Van Dyke and Mike. ;) And unless you work exclusively with people who are on a salary and you're the boss, it's good politics to project where circumstances can lead. He WAS signed to Capitol, he KNEW they would expect a new album for Christmas. Pretending you're surprised or hurt with the record company's reaction when it's already February and there's no album on the line... Hey, face your responsabilities or buy off your contract, so you can take n years to finish Smile. The same applies for Van Dyke, a COLLABORATOR, and Mike, a BAND MEMBER. They were not Brian's employees.

I agree. Brian had to beileve in it and if he had it would have come out. Reading the session dates you can see he became obsessive over Heroes forgetting everything else. He needed to relax and let the project flow, and he just didn't have the clarity. I am sure he wasn't this poor little angel nor was he a villian. The Beach Boys all had good points and bad, but I don't think any of them were "evil". . They were making a living and five-six people are never going to see everything the same way. The fact remains Brian was in charge and they all didwhat he told them to do even grunting like pigs.

And another point that gets glossed over about this time was the fact that BRIAN was the manager AND the producer of the group. No third party. No one who could say "Brian, finish this up. You have a great record in H&V (from Jan 27th). Release it. And guys (the Beach boys), give Brian some space and he won't let you or the public down. As for Loren, Vosse and the rest, act like a shepard and get the flock out of here!" :)

What about Sloop John B on Pet Sounds? What about Good Vibrations on Smile? I thought Brian and the rest of the group caved in to Capitol on both issues.

It seems that Brian did intend those to be included. I think some paperwork came up about that.

Sherriff John Stone hit it on the head. This post was basically to express the fact that I think Mike Love has unfairly been blamed for SMiLE's non release for years. I don't care for the guy, I don't think that he's as great as he thinks he is, but that doesn't mean he should shoulder the blame for Brian's inability to get the job done.

When I first got into the BB's, I mean REALLY got into them, it was about twelve, thirteen years ago. Every book I read. eveything I saw on web sights, pretty much the majority of things I saw went like this: Brian Wilson was an angel who everybody screwed over. All the poor guy ever did was write music based on 'love'. Over and over again he sat around and let others walk all over him. Then he started doing drugs to deal with the pain in his life, and now he's a shell of what he once was, due to the drugs and Dr. Landy (which is his families fault because they put him in Landy's care).

This is how I feel about it:
Brian Wilson has made music that's made me cry. At one time he was one of the best composers on the planet. He had a chance to be mentioned with Lennon/McCartney. He had a bastard of a father who caused a lot of what ailed Brian later on in his life. Brian also was known to overdue a lot of things, like sweets, destubols and hash.  He got caught up in making his music 'perfect'. He had doubts about the music, and when his group voiced their doubts, it was just icing on the cake. Think about this; you're recording pieces of music. Then re-recording them. The pieces can be interchangeable. So you start juggling them around like a puzzle. You're popping destubols and smoking hash like it's going out of style. You already have some mental issues as it is. You become more and more confused, and you start to get worn out by the constant tinkering of the music. The more music you make, the harder you try, the more you become dissatisfied with it. You make the comment to an interviewer, 'The harder I try, the more unhappy I am', in regards to the music. In the end, it's easier to make stripped down music that's different, which is what 'Smiley Smile' is.

Early on, I believe Brian knew exactly what he wanted to do. After a couple of months of recording though, it became a little bit harder to decide what goes where. And occasionally he'd make music that scared the sh*t out of him. Listen to 'Heroes and Vibrations' cd. There's a track where they guys are trying to sing their parts, and Brian lets them have it: 'I'm gettin' kinda pissed 'cause you guys keep fucking around'. That doesn't sound like someone who's that concerned about his bandmates not liking what he's trying to do. Nobody is to 'blame' for SMiLE not coming out: Not Mike, Al, Carl, Dennis, David Anderle, VDP, not even Brian. He got burnt out from trying too hard, if that makes any sense.

I've often wondered, if Brian tackled one song at a time, maybe it would have gotten done, instead of a piece of this song today, a part of another one tomorrow....

A new theory: Charles Manson killed smile!

well to be fair that is not all he said he does also mention that it was too advanced and that it would have taken ages to get it finished etc.

There were obviously many different factors in the non-completion of SMiLE. In general, the new
people around Brian were not sufficiently grounded to provide a stable creative (or social)
atmosphere for him, and some of them, like Loren Schwartz, were probably actually "bad"
people who actively, if not purposely, destabilized him and fuelled his paranoia, both by their
presences and the substances they facilitated his access to. A lot of them were more concerned
with their hipness quotient than being truly supportive of Brian's creative efforts, with the exception of Van Dyke and David Anderle, at least, who were enrolled and on board with his
direction as long as the friction with band members was manageable. The Capitol royalty law-
suit was a huge distraction, and he definitely needed more support and grounding to counter-
balance the drugs and the manic element that accompanied the quicksilver creative flow.

Carl was clearly ambivalent about the vibe of the work, as you hear on his "Rock With Me
Henry" vocal attempt, but was, I think, on the fence and could have been influenced by other
aspects of the general reaction and atmosphere to get more on board, and he gradually got
disillusioned as the album didn't cohere. Dennis was fully supportive, as we know. Al didn't
like making animal noises, but wasn't actively opposed.

Which leaves the redoubtable Mr. Love. No, he wasn't the sole cause of the album not coming
together, but there is an overly forgiving tone to some of the posts on this thread. It is a real
popular music tragedy that the album didn't reach fruition in 1966-67, and as Brian said to Murry
during the Help Me Rhonda sessions, "we would like to record in an atmosphere of peace."
Mike was aggressively negative and narrow-minded about the project and the creative
partners involved, who I'm sure he perceived as a threat, in addition to his misgivings about
the unconventional nature of the music and lyrics. His hostility quite possibly was the tipping point, the decisive factor in the collapse. Yes, Brian may have, consciously or unconsciously,
set him and Van Dyke against each other, maybe as a test to see if he could count on Van
Dyke to be strong and back him up in their joint creative direction against Mike's powerful negative pressure. And he was undoubtedly beset by personal and substance demons at the
time. It is almost as complex a puzzle as the album itself to analyze the "elements" (ha ha) of
its demise.

Mike Love's intolerance and lack of faith in Brian's relatively avant-garde artistic
experiment, called SMiLE, was undeniably a, not the, critical and decisive element in the ultimate failure of the album
to be completed in its original time of conception. He was the spearhead of the perhaps un-
malicious but nevertheless creatively ruinous forces that, when the band returned from Europe, resulted in the new group of people around Brian
being unseated and the puzzle that was SMiLE not being solved and assembled, which could quite possibly have happened in their absence.

What a loss. :'(

I recommend reading Peter Reum's posts in this thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2325.140.html

i think he has a fairly complete picture of what happened in 1966-67 with SMiLE.

Peter's posts were illuminating and very knowledgeable. The guy's an asset to BBs' fandom and we're lucky to have had him in our midst for probably longer than any of the rest of us have ben here.

Personally (when I'm trying to juggle a million tasks, only one of which I'm interested in) I sometimes feel as though I can empathise with what Wilson must have been going through back in the 60s -  he was devoted to an absorbing project, but had other demands and responsibilities tugging him left right and centre. He was surrounded by people whose attentions also lay elsewhere, who didn't appreciate the importance and gravity of what he as trying to do, and whose attitude made him feel as though his project was undervalued and unappreciated. Far easier, then, if you're prevented from devoting 12 hours a day to the one thing that you hold dearest, to allow yourself instead to being distracted by things that merely entertain you for minutes at a time before the next demand on your time noses in. If BW had had the internet in 66/67, he'd've got lost in that, I'm damn sure.  Just as I get lost in it now, rather than get engrossed in a 12-hour creative project of love I know I'm going to get distracted from after five minutes!

Peter, I guess I'm in danger of being next on the couch!

Oh, that thread. Still fascinating, after two and a half years. "The Message Board almost broke up, almost split up for good..."

I've never thought of it that way before-that the twelve track list was actually just a bit of what the whole of SMiLE was going to be about. Instead of an entire movement, the album became 12 songs that sort of fit together. After all, Capitol needed a track list to make the album slicks. That makes a lot of sense-that the album became an album of 'songs' instead of 'movements' to fit the basic idea of what an album was supposed to have. And that made it more accessible to Capitol to see a definitive list of songs, instead of something like

1. H&V (Barnyard, I'm In Great Shape!)
2. Do You Like Worms (Bicycle Rider-See What You Done!)
3. Cabinessence (Who Ran The Iron Horse? Have You Seen The Grand Coulee?')
etc.

Not saying of course that's how it would be listed, but maybe there is a reason all those sections were indiviually labled. If Brian would have submitted a track list that wasn't as traditional as usual,, Capitol wouldn't have been too confident in the new material, I imagine.

Hmm, that looks like the tracklist for King Crimson's first album. But in that case the musicians argued that the gimmick was a trick to get more money from the Publishing Company.

"Good Vibrations" had sections, was named just "Good Vibrations" and no one was confused. In fact, it was a #1 hit single. So, why f*** with the formula for the next album?  :)