The Smiley Smile Message Board

I was wondering: can "Mount Vernon" be seen as a half-hearted response to the success of The Point! from a conceptual and musical point of view? I remember reading that Brian had seen Harry Nilsson as a threat, and obviously many of Nilsson's songs owed some debt to the Beach Boys. I wonder what Mount Vernon could have been if it had been fully developed, but it perhaps shows that by 1971 Brian was no longer leading the pack...

Well I really never heard Brian say much about Harry. Other then being loosely aimed at children I don't see too much of a connection. Brian has always said Randy Newman influenced this, but I think that in he was still very creative and Mount Vernon pretty unqiue. Remember he didn't want to lead the pack after Smile, he just wanted to make music he liked.

The connection seems there for me in the music and the harmonies more than anything, but also in the way that the narrative is used. That Lucky Old Sun also uses the technique of stripped-down music to provide backing to the narratives.

To be fair, you're right in that no-one has gone on record as saying Brian thought Harry a rival. There is an article here though : http://fortheloveofharry.blogspot.com/2008/03/mojo-magazine-feature-april-2008.html

...where Van Dyke Parks refers to Nilsson associating with the enemy in regards to the friendship between the Beatles and Harry. Would be interesting to know what Brian thought / thinks about Nilsson though.

Always have thought the bonus track version (on the CD of The Point!) of "Down To The Valley" sounds very BB-esque, especially the harmony vocals in the fade. Brian also has covered "This Could Be the Night" which Harry wrote, so there can't be that much bad blood

I had never heard of The Point before, I only knew about the song "Coconut". I like this a lot. I definitely see this as being an influence on the Brian Wilson, especially "Mt. Vernon & Fairway" and That Lucky Old Sun.  I know there's a lot of talk about Sail Away, but I don't hear it as a direct influence on anything released at the time, except maybe "Funky Pretty" (which has some funky elements similar to what's on "You Can Leave Your Hat On"). I think "California Feeling", also from around that time, does have some audible Randy Newman influences. "Ding Dang" makes me think of Randy Newman in parts, too.

Well Van Dyke and Brian aren't really alike in thought. Both are kind of one of a kind. Still you are right it would be interesting in hearing what Brian thought of him. I know Dean Torrence was a close friend.

I like the thought of Brian being fairly competitive as late as 1972.

I think he was, in a way. Most of the songs he released in the early 70s were very polished, like "Til I Die" and "A Day in the Life of a Tree" on Surf's Up. He still cared. True, he didn't finish many songs, but when he did you could tell he still had a lot of pride. He wouldn't even sing because he knew his drug abuse was robbing his voice of its angelic purity, which also shows he was prideful, albeit in a weird way (because it wasn't like he was going to give up drugs to save his voice). Later on he was happy to wail away regardless of what condition his voice was in. I think the lack of success his early 70s mini-masterpieces met with ("Add Some Music"/"This Whole World", "Marcella/You Need a Mess of Help", "Til I Die/"A Day in the Life of a Tree", along with some other good songs) is big part of why he stopped caring about recording for a couple of years, probably bigger than anything the band did to him.  I think if one of those songs would have become a big hit we would have gotten a full album of Brian Wilson songs. He was competitive, and I think that's why he couldn't handle the tepid popular reaction to those songs. I mean, if I would have written and produced those six songs and hardly got any recognition for it, I'd probably be depressed, too. Wouldn't you?

Brian's interest in "TCBTN" stemmed far more from his attending the Spector-produced MFQ session for it than anything else. I doubt he knew Harry wrote it.

[. He wouldn't even sing because he knew his drug abuse was robbing his voice of its angelic purity, which also shows he was prideful, albeit in a weird way (because it wasn't like he was going to give up drugs to save his voice). Later on he was happy to wail away regardless of what condition his voice was in. I think the lack of success his early 70s mini-masterpieces met with ("Add Some Music"/"This Whole World", "Marcella/You Need a Mess of Help", "Til I Die/"A Day in the Life of a Tree", along with some other good songs) is big part of why he stopped caring about recording for a couple of years, probably bigger than anything the band did to him.  I think if one of those songs would have become a big hit we would have gotten a full album of Brian Wilson songs. He was competitive, and I think that's why he couldn't handle the tepid popular reaction to those songs. I mean, if I would have written and produced those six songs and hardly got any recognition for it, I'd probably be depressed, too. Wouldn't you?
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I think the quality control was intact through Holland, and I am sure he wanted to be successful, it's more a matter of him giving himself a break. I think he came to understand that a fairly straight forward track like Here Comes The Night was as valid as a big production like Break Away.

I feel  the reason he didn't do a lot of leads at the time was that he was not always focused enough to finish a song, and also he felt like he had been "pigging the show".  Which meant that he wanted to let the others guys get their share of the spotlight. Besides Brian sang a lot through the Sunflower sessions and when he did sing from 1971-74 it sounded pretty great. A lot of the falsetto on Feel Flows, and Disney Girls is him. The demo of Won't You Tell Me from fall 1971 is very pristine, and I also find that to be the case the demo of Awake from the same period. The Caribou outtake Hard Time (aka Rollin Up To Heaven) has him in great form and that's the fall of 74.

Yeah, I know that. But it *was* released on the "For The Love of Harry" Nilsson tribute CD, so I'd imagine he knew more than you are letting on. I mean, Harry was one of the main members of the Hollywood Vampires and over the course of his career crossed paths with many people that crossed paths with Brian (VDP is an obvious one, but a lot of the LA session players were used by both too). They both made orchestral pop music with vocal harmonies, its not like they existed in separate universes...hell, I've heard Harry was there when all the Hollywood Vampires went from the Rainbow up to Brian's mansion and he made Iggy Pop and people sing Shortenin' Bread for hours on end

A picture of Brian and Harry is shown in the trailer for the "new" Harry
Nilsson documentary (at 0:50).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmmwMx06Pg8

And here's an article about the premiere of the movie:

http://movies.ign.com/articles/690/690523p1.html

Brian is mentioned a couple of times.

"The movie slid into the third and most emotional act, and from time to time I could hear sniffling amidst the crowd. The ending of Harry's life was not a happy one and this created a stiff challenge for us as to how best to end the film. We made a choice and stayed with it. Audience reaction showed us it was absolutely the right move, and as the last image of Harry faded away with the music, people started to applaud. And cheer. And whistle. And they got to their feet in a standing ovation led by Brian Wilson. It was truly gratifying after all the hard work that went into making the film."

"Afterward, we began hearing how much the film impacted people in the audience. An usher in the theater asked me if Harry's album, A Little Touch of Schmilsson in the Night was available on CD. A Santa Barbara radio personality, Julie Ramos, wrote me that she and a friend immediately scooted over to Border's next to the theatre to buy a Nilsson CD. Actor Jeff Bridges went home and bought every Nilsson thing he could find on iTunes. Brian Wilson turned to David Leaf and said, "I love it!""

oh crap.. that picture in the youtube video is priceless.  note Danny Hutton on the far left.. he and Brian are drinking.. milk?  You just know all of them are coked out of their skulls.

Yeah, that picture is intriguing. I've never seen it before; anybody have any idea what year it's from?

I would guess 1974 because Brian's hair is still kind of combed forward. Could be around 1978 though as I  saw a pic of Brian and Dennis from that year in Jon's book and it looks like the same shirt.

That's a great picture!

Now 37 years after its release, isn't it about time for this Mt. Vernon mini-album to be re-appraised as a true masterpiece. As the second of 4 concept albums/song cycles created by Brian Wilson?? And for inspiration other than Randy Newman's album - there's also the rise and fall of SMiLE and/or of Brian's muse
to consider (D. Leaf/SeanyMac/DAFTfilm). And maybe one can actually learn to love Rieley's narration in the process - I always did!

Yes, viva "Mount Vernon" it's terrific and I sometimes still listen to it. The first time I did I brought it home and immediately turned out the lights. Sounds crazy, but it works so well.

My fantasy is to have Brian perform it as an encore on tour, let him be the Pied Piper. That would be so cool, wouldn't it??

Yeah, I don't know how most die hard Beach Boys fans don't like "Mount Vernon and Fairway". The music is good, probably the last attempt by Brian to really capture that mid-late 60s vibe, and story itself is revealing and obviously semi-autobiographical. My only complaint is that Brian didn't have musical backing for some of the narrative sections. Overall, though, it sounds like what Brian might wanted to have done with "Vegetables", with the arguments, the crazy "be-bop-a-ruba" fadeout on the Good Vibrations box set version, the "Do-A-Lot" section, along with the unused instrumentals that would have been perfect for more narration or sound effects. Actually, it would be interesting if someone tried to make a 5-8 minute long "Vegetables" drama out of the bootlegs and released material. Put the smog talk with "Wind Chimes" (you could use one of the alternate instrumental takes to back it), along with the whispering winds section, and then couple "Fire" with the "Water Chant", which could then segue into "I Wanna Be Around/Workshop" (the rebuilding) to create a nifty elemental suite. Sorry, I'm just brainstorming now, or Brianstorming, whatever you want to call it.

That's not Danny Hutton. Judging from Brian's appearence, it looks like the picture was taken in the mid 1970's, when Three Dog Night was huge.  By then, Danny didn't look anything like the person in that picture.

Kinda looks like Van Dyke....

Yeah, that's what I thought at first.

Original narration was by Dustin Hoffman.

"Mount Vernon" is wonderful.  People can't complain about it being 'on' a Beach Boys album... it came WITH a Beach Boys album.  (Okay, it's on the CD, but still...)

Holland and Mount Vernon are two completely separate entities.

Seek help immediately. And then call me in the morning.

But RangeRover is right! You know who else sucks? The Beach Boys!