The Smiley Smile Message Board

I have read several things on various websites as well as in various books (like Derek Taylor's book It Was Twenty Years Ago Today for example) that after hearing Sgt. Pepper, Brian was so blown away that he went to bed for days/months (depending on what you read).... now I may have missed something but I don't think I've ever heard Brian praise Pepper to a great degree... it's always been Rubber Soul and after that "Strawberry Fields Forever" as far as I know... In that "The Making Of Sgt. Pepper" documentary Brian doesn't seem too amazed by it, he just says something like "I think of Pet sounds and Pepper and I think gosh, those two records don't sound alike at all... only in that they're very creative - they must have picked up on the creativity, not the sound."

And in particular, that Derek Taylor book said something like Brian Wilson ran to his room for a thumbsucking episode as he didn't know what to do about it." So I dunno, was he really blown away by Pepper that much? I know he likes She's Leaving Home... but still it just seems to me that he's always liked Rubber Soul SOOOO much more than Pepper.

The Beatles had been releasing great albums (almost) every six months. Pepper wasn't any different. Unfortunately, in June '67, Brian was.

Sgt. Pepper has consistently been on most of Brian's top album lists in interviews.  Didn't Paul play A Day In The Life for Brian when he was at the Vegetables recording session in 67?

I always felt that by the time Sgt. Pepper's was released, Brian was already blown away, the game was over, he had moved on....

Without wanting to get into the old and equally tiresome Beach Boys vs. Beatles discussion, you really have to wonder why someone might be intimidated by Pepper who still had stuff like Surf's Up and Cabinessence up his sleeve.

Yeah, I've always felt the same. Except for Strawberry Fields Forever and A Day in the Life I can't see any Beatles product from that era standing along side even the most minor SMiLE fragment. Pepper is more like Piper at the Gates of Dawn, which is an album I wonder if BW ever heard...

I love this type of discussion, because it eludes us (well, me for one) how Brian indeed could feel intimidated by any other artist or band. But, and this is the $ 1.000.000 prize question, did he (ever) perceive himself as a great artist? With tricks up his sleeve? I'd say no. Many truly great artists didn't, don't have an inkling of an idea of how great their achievements are in the context of others' work. I'd go so far as to say that they don't have any urge to 'compete'. They don't create art in any conscious form, they do what they do (or what they feel they have to do), period. See van Gogh, see Beethoven, see Bach. Bach composed in the service of God with a strict discipline (apart from rearing a bunch of unruly kids). He worked his *ss off, but not to be celebrated by all generations after him, nor to impress other artists. He got his commissions and fulfilled his duties.
For me Mike Love was the competitive spirit in the band, which typifies the man for me. Being a very average composer himself, Love was keen on 'the formula', the image, the money, and making hits: i.e. being competitive, getting to #1. Brian was nothing of all that. He was insecure, didn't feel like a star ever, shied away from the stage, it's familiar territory. If he stated that he felt intimidated by the Beatles at any point, I think he meant the public and critical adoration, so: the validation. Perhaps he thought that if so many others worshipped the Fab Four, then he himself must be inherently inferior. Something like the democratic weight the masses put upon him.   
If this line of thinking/feeling held him back from finishing SMiLE in the end, then that is very, very sad.

Exactly. I wonder if being "blown away by Pepper" wasn't a calculation by Brian of what he had to do so folks would stop bugging him about those unfinished tracks he had been working on for months.

Brian can be a paradox or a walking contradiction (to steal a Kristofferson phrase) in this area. Many times he will fall into his fake-humility mode when he will say, describing his records/concerts, in an amazed tone, "I couldn't believe everybody stood up", referring to his standing ovations. Or, about his old records, "Do people still remember them"? Like we would FORGET them? Or, about SMiLE, "I didn't know if people were going to like it". As if the people - who bought tickets to BWPS - wouldn't LOVE IT?

I believe, that while Brian didn't always write with sales/commercialism in mind, it was/is very important to him.  I think Brian measured a lot of his success - and failures - by record sales. While it might not have been the overriding factor, I think it was a factor. Yes, the quality of the Beatles' music was important, no denying that. But, when the Beatles were dominating the sales charts, right through Sgt. Pepper's, Brian must've thought, "I'll never win....." And that might've influenced him to not try as hard, or ultimately, give up trying.

Brian was probably more like a young  artist who put his full creativity and talent into a work and wanted validation and recognition......uncertain of himself...needing the approval of others.  Wasn't that the deal with the Wilson boys?
Could never get validation from dad no matter how hard they tried?

I agree with this entirely.  He was a naturally shy young man that found his voice in music and associated his music with his being; thus he equated sales of his records with his worthiness as a person.  When sales were down and people questioned what he was doing it was devestating to him because he felt like the whole world was rejecting him, not just as a songwriter or singer but as a man.

I believe Paul played She's Leaving Home at that vegetables session...

Also, when the Beatles 1 came out, there was a 2-hour documentry about the Beatles (change the world or something like that) on ABC & it had Brian talking about how great Sgt. Pepper sounded when it came out.

But I don't think you can underestimate the brilliance of Pepper in that it had both artistic credibility and mass appeal. I agree that Cabinessence is the most magnificent piece of work and is musically more interesting to me than most of Sgt. pepper, but I think it's quite alienating to the average listener, as is almost every Smile song bar Good Vibrations, Surf's Up and Heroes & Villains. Pepper songs like A Day in The Life manage to be lyrically oblique, yet still resonate with the average listener. With A Little Help from My Friends has trippy, nonsense lyrics, yet is a song that a 5 year old or your gran can sing along with, which is quite astonishing when you think about it. However I think VDP's lyrics are a little too arty for your average Joe, and this would have severely limited Smile's popularity had it been released in 67. Brian must have been worried about Smile's potential lack of popular appeal and like everyone else at the time was probably in awe of The Beatles' ability to be both avant-garde and have cross-generational appeal.

"But I don't think you can underestimate the brilliance of Pepper in that it had both artistic credibility and mass appeal. I agree that Cabinessence is the most magnificent piece of work and musically it's more interesting to me than many Beatles tunes but I think it's quite alienating to the average listener, as is almost every Smile song bar Good Vibrations, Surf's Up and Heroes & Villains. Pepper songs like A Day in The Life manage to be lyrically oblique, yet still resonate with the average listener. I think VDP's lyrics are a little too arty for your average Joe, and this would have severely limited Smile's popularity had it been released in 67. Brian must have been worried about Smile's potential lack of popular appeal and like everyone else at the time was probably in awe of The Beatles' ability to be both avant-garde and popular."


This statement really hits the nail on the head.  In Good Vibrations, Brian captured (for a brief moment) the ability to move forward artistically, while making something that was palatable to the masses.  The Beatles captured it for an entire album with Sgt. Peppers.

Absolutely. If only Mike Love and Brian could've sustained the perfect equilibrium of popular vs. avant-garde that they achieved with Good Vibrations, over an entire album - that would've been the record that blew Pepper out of the water! In reality however I don't think Love's lyrics would have had the depth necessary to compliment the complexity of Brian's Smile compositions.

It would have definitely been jarring to have Mike's Lyrics grafted onto the rest of the Smile
music. "Good Vibrations" was a unique, stand-alone piece of work, not intended for Smile.

"Sgt. Pepper's" had an originality and universality that undoubtedly intimidated Brian to some degree, because he knew that Smile couldn't compete with it on those terms. But if it had been
finished and released it would have withstood scrutiny on it's own merits, blew as many minds,
albeit minds with a more abstract and oblique bent, certainly received critical acclaim, and taken its place as a cerebral and utterly inspired and unprecedented album.

It would be truly fascinating to know precisely what the overall contemporary response and consensus would have been. :'(

Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever was released as early as Feb'67. What was Brian's reaction to it?

On the SMiLE documentary, Michael Vosse said he was with Brian in a car when they first heard it on the radio and then Brian just sat there all quiet and said "they did it already"... and then Vosse said he burst out laughing and then Brian did too... but he said that at the moment Brian said that he seemed very serious.

Anyway, thanks for the responses everyone... I myself have never really been a big admirer of Pepper... I've never seen what was so great about it... I mean there is some great stuff on it ("A Day In The Life", "With A Little Help...", "She's Leaving Home" etc..) but overall I don't think the songs are as good as they were on say Rubber Soul (my personal fav.) and Revolver, but that's just me

I think had Smile been released in 67 it would have confused the record buying public - I don't think it would've been a commercial success at all, but I agree that it would've still blown a lot of minds (or those with more sophisticated tastes!) and, if not immediately, the critical response would have eventually have been very positive. I do think that Sgt Pepper's colossal success was in large part down to the inclusivity of the music, and that in being a piece of art that everyone, young or old, could appreciate, it reflected the utopian ideals of the time and captured the zeitgeist in a way that the exclusively intellectual Smile could never have done.

Though Brian has said on numerous occasions that he is/was very competitive, he would hear something and then try do better to 'beat' the other bands, hearing 'Rubber Soul' is a case in point of his competitive nature. Brians competitive nature might have a lot to answer for with regards to some of his problems.
Mike might be competitive, but his desire not to progress musically or to go along with Brians progression shows that though he wanted to better other bands he didn't actually invest in trying to be one step ahead of everyone else which would have been better than sticking with the formula.

I think that "Strawberry/Penny" is a tremendous factor in the demise of "Smile" that's often overlooked. That said, I don't think that Brian was ever NOT blown away, or felt as if he was chasing the Beatles. Even now. Never forget that the WORLD was in love with the Beatles. And they were cool -- in EVERY ERA. Everything about them was fascinating. And although Brian went "symphonic" first, the Beatles trumped that because they were a real band with real roles. They didn't need Lyle Ritz. They didn't need a guy who wasn't friends with the majority of the band to convey their message. No slight against VDP -- or Tony Asher for that matter -- but "Pepper," with all the trickery and studio overdubs, is still wholly imagined and executed by the Beatles. Their words, their music, their fingers on the steel, skin, and wood. John Lennon's words were beloved because it was coming out of his mind. He thought of them.

I love the 1966/1967 "Smile." Probably more than "Pet Sounds" -- not as much as "Wild Honey." But Brian was absolutely right that day in Vosse's car. They DID do it first. LITERALLY in seven minutes the Beatles kicked "Smile's" ass.

I think this is a very good point which has a lot of truth in it.

Awesome post, Howie.

Ehh...Anybody ever hear of George Martin? Pretty sure he kinda pulled that one together. Just a little something you might want to chew on...

Dylan's lyrics were sometimes just as "out there" as VDP's, yet he still managed to sell shitloads of records.

Dylan did sell a lot of records, but unless I'm mistaken he wasn't in the Beach Boys or Beatles league in those days--not even close. He had more influence than sales.

I don't have the figures in front of me, but, as far as album sales are concerned, I think Dylan was more "in the league" of The Beatles and especially The Beach Boys than you think.

However, I don't think most of Dylan's lyrics fall into that "psychedelic" category that we're discussing in this thread. Yeah, they were "out there", but in a different way than "Strawberry Fields Forever" or Sgt. Pepper's. Most of Dylan's lyrics were more poetic and biting than "druggy", although, obviously, some of his his words reached that area.

Again, keeping with the thread topic about Brian's mind being blown by Sgt. Pepper, I think Mike Love made the decision first, but Brian made the final determination. I'm paraphrasing Brian, who was talking about Mike's position, when he said, "It wasn't that SMiLE wasn't good, it just wasn't right for us (The Beach Boys)".

Brian obviously wanted the Beach Boys' fans to like the music, not be blown away by it. So he did Smiley Smile.... :P

Dylan wasn't the big sales competition for The Beatles. Actually the top selling act in the U.S. in 1967 was The Monkees by a mile, they outsold The Beatles and The Stones COMBINED during '67.

Headquarters!

Dylan was never a major seller. In '65, '66 he was selling about 100 - 150,000 copies to every Beatles million. As far as George Martin (and/or Geoff Emerick), he was facilitating the music the Beatles were creating -- we've heard his spiel ad nauseum ever since. Even if 'Smile' had "beaten" 'Pepper' -- it would've made 'Pet Sounds' look like a blockbuster. Even when the world WAS "ready for it" -- with more pre-release press than ANY ALBUM IN HISTORY -- what was it, a Top 15 album in the States??? (Still -- eight positions higher than 'Give My Regards To Broad Street'- -- ANOTHER LP chock full of flaccid 1966 re-recordings.)

Short of maybe LISTENING to Brian, I personally think that there was nothing that Tony Asher did for 'Pet Sounds' that Mike Love couldn't have done. I think had Mike been taken more seriously by Brian as a lyricist, much of how that era played out might have panned out differently. Had the Beach Boys stayed "romantic," 1967 could have been a much, much different year. "Happy Together," the Association's singles... That niche could've been the BB's. It was competition and validation issues that f*ucked it up for the Beach Boys.

I hate to go into the Beach Boys/Beatles territory because as a member of both "camps," I really don't see how a Beatles fan can't equally be enamored of everything the Beach Boys have done (and vice versa) -- it's coming from the same place. The difference being that The Beatles are The Beatles. There's really The Beatles... and then everything else. All the Beatles needed to do was show up. As brilliant and groundbreaking and original and beautiful as Brian was, both then and now, he needs a mess of help to stand alone.

I agree Howie... I think people tend to think of Mike's lyrics like Fun, Fun, Fun or even the later stuff like It's OK etc... but Mike wrote some great lyrics just before Pet Sounds... were they as good as Pet Sounds? Sometimes yes and sometimes no but they always suited Brian's songs perfectly... I mean think of some of Mike's lyrics throughout the 60's-70's in particular (not entirely sure if Brian contributed much to the lyrics): "The Warmth of the Sun", "All I Wanna Do", "Let Him Run Wild", "Good To My Baby", "When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)", "Please Let Me Wonder", "Kiss Me, Baby", "She Knows Me Too Well", "In The Back Of My Mind", "Good Vibrations", "I'm Waiting For The Day", "California Girls", "Help Me, Rhonda", "Wild Honey", "Darlin'", "Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby", "Let The Wind Blow", "Do It Again", "Only With You", "Sound Of Free" etc..

Again I don't know how much of those lyrics he wrote (except for a few of them like Warmth of the Sun which he wrote by himself) and I'm also not saying they are mind blowing lyrics, but they do just as good a job of suiting the songs than Asher's lyrics do for the Pet Sounds songs.

But yeah on another note, I kind of get frustrated when fans say "Pet Sounds is art, all that surf stuff is crap"... well this is just me, but to be honest a lot of times I get more of a kick out of some of the earlier stuff... it's more uptempo and easier to listen to no matter your mood... Pet Sounds, SMiLE etc.. are amazing pieces of art that you can admire and think "holy cow, how did Brian think up of this" but at times I'm not in the mood to listen to Caroline, No etc... I mean it's beautiful but so is a lot of the earlier stuff too.


Yeah I couldn't agree more Howie, I love both bands almost as much as each other (The Beach Boys slightly edge it) and I think it's stupid to think that you have to choose one and not like the other, both incredible bands... in my opinion, they are both so far ahead artistically of every other group.

Great post(s).

I dont know if I agree. I dont think Mike is bad, but I dont know if he could have come up with something like IJWMFTT.  Listen to him laughing at the words to Hang on to Your Ego. He simply couldnt conceive of where rock was going, he had rocknroll and beach boys music in a little box. He still does. He cant think outside of the early sixties box that he helped create.

This is probably just me being ignorant but I can't hear too much of a similarity between Penny Lane and Smile. What exactly did the Beatles do first with that? I can hear a bit of a similarity in Strawberry Fields though. Still, I can't see why this one would throw him out of the loop. Now if he had heard A Day In The Life in that car, that'd be a different story.

In my opinion, to hear the similarity to Penny Lane and Smile (or Pet Sounds, or GV), you have to take a look at the backing track.  I think this is the Beatles at their most Brian Wilson-ish moment.  There's the wide variety of instruments used in the production (i.e. there really isn't much of the Beatles on it... this isn't a two guitars, bass and drums song).  There's a bassline that just goes all over the place, just like Brian's stuff.  To my ears, this production sounds like something that could have been pulled off by the Wrecking Crew.

What would throw Brian out of the loop after hearing this in the car in 1967?  Because it's HIS sound, the sound he created on Pet Sounds...which is the album that had just finished going to #10 on the charts and then disappeared amidst Capitol's marketing push of a Greatest Hits album.  And here were the Beatles, riding towards the top of the charts with this song.

Shane, this makes perfect sense to me, I hadn't thought of anything concerning Pet Sounds, just wondering where the specific connection with the music of Smile might be. If BW indeed lived in permanent fear of public failure, I can totally see this being quite a damaging experience.

Do we know what Brian's reaction to the Beatles breaking up was?

Yes I hear a lot of similarities between the rhythm, and the bass' relationship to the chords in Penny lane and God Only Knows. I think PL was heavily inspired by that particular Pet Sounds song.

As for Strawberry Fields Forever, it's just the most astounding psychedelic song ever. It shares the prettiness of parts of Good Vibrations but has an undermining queasiness to it, which reminds me of the type of counterpoints Brian was doing in songs like Cabinessence, where a beautiful Bacharach type melody is married to the jarring 'Who ran The Iron Horse' section. I think Brian felt that pretty melodies alone were no longer enough to hold the interest of the new 'turned on' audience. Maybe that's why he wasn't entirely satisfied with the original Smile version of Wonderful - it needed some sort of counterpoint to its sweetness. I think with Strawberry Fields, The Beatles had achieved this very effectively - it was a beautiful, melodic pop song, which had a subversive quality which perfectly reflected the LSD experience of not being able to trust one's own senses.

Well Brian was in pretty good shape in 1970 compared to any time later but I don't know if the Beatles break up had anything to do with it. I read a quote from shortly before Lennon died that Brian thought they would get back together and tour with the Beach Boys. Like I said Brian was in better shape in 1970 then any time later ;D.

As I say, take a look at some of Mike's lyrics throughout the 60s (not so much the really early stuff but mostly from '64 onwards) and 70s and do you admit that pretty much all of his lyrics fit the songs really well? So who's to say he couldn't have written introspective lyrics like on Pet Sounds? He was writing some introspective lyrics on Today! anyway.... but yeah of course I doubt he could've written good lyrics for SMiLE (on the whole anyway), but I can imagine Pet Sounds.

Great point Shane, I didn't think of it like that... but I couldn't agree more... I guess that must've been pretty heartbreaking for Brian

By the way, on a semi-related note, I was reading the NME issue that is solely on the Beatles and it has clippings of letters that people have sent in from the time period and it's pretty funny to read some people's opinion of SFF. I mean this for example: "At last the Beatles have outdone even 'Yellow Submarine' with their worst production to date. 'Strawberry Fields Forever' and 'Penny Lane' are drivelling nonentities of meaningless lyrics and elementary harmonies and music. 'Strawberry Fields' sounds like out of wrk street-corner buskers."

And the response is generally pretty bad to it for some reason... so maybe SMiLE wouldn't have been the success that some people like to believe?

Those NME letters are completely anecdotal and really meaningless in the overall picture. PL and SFF were a GIANT success both commercially and critically, there's no disputing that. Using that as an example of why Smile might not have been a success just seems out of context to me. I do think Smile would have gotten the same occasional put-down from fans wanting the BB's innocence to remain as it was in '64...but there were far more people who were looking forward and wanting their art to reflect the horizon and the breaking down of old stereotypes and barriers. I have no doubt the BB's would have been better off had Smile been released in early '67.

As usual Jon, you're perfectly informed. Having lived through the waiting period for SMiLE with my classmates in freshman and sophomore years in college and seeing the total let down when SS came out, whyI was laughed out of the dorm! I never gave up though and when 20/20 came out I was revived for life.

I think Mike could have stepped up to fit in with whatever Brian threw at him if he had been given the chance. I'm Waiting For The Day sits shoulder to shoulder with any of Tony Asher's great lyrics on Pet Sounds; Good Vibs lyric nails it. All IMHO of course.

Yeah you're right Jon... I was just saying that The Beatles are the Beatles, in their heyday they could've released anything and people would've bought it even if they didn't like it... I think PL/SFF got to #1 on the charts but that doesn't mean people liked it...and of course it wasn't the same for the Beach Boys who didn't have huge success with everything they did... and in my opinion some of SMiLE was even further out there than SFF and especially PL (which of course isn't really out there), so maybe a lot of people wouldn't have been ready for it? I dunno, that's sort of what I was getting at... obviously probably wrong (hey, I didn't grow up in that era of course :-\)

Interesting question, one I have contemplated several times, and it relates to this thread.

Assume that Brian was in a real competition with the Beatles. Is it a coincidence that the BEGINNING of Brian's major retreat coincides with the breakup of The Beatles, right after the recording of Sunflower in late 1969?

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Can't really say I agree with Howie's statement here, at least not all of it.  Yes, the Beatles got there first in terms of actual release dates.  Brian's repeated delays kept Smile in the can for too long.  Independent of release dates, I wouldn't say the Beatles "got there" first.  Brian was recording brilliant material in the 6 months prior, stuff that was (in my opinion anyways) every bit as mindblowing as Strawberry Fields.  I would put "Surf's Up" above anything the Beatles ever did, and the crazy section in "A Day In The Life" was very similar to "Fire," which Brian recorded several months before Pepper came out.

Those seven minutes didn't kick Smile's ass, but I think they shook Brian's confidence enough to escalate his increasing self doubts.  Like another poster said, "Penny Lane" was essentially a Beatles attempt at a Pet Sounds track.  I can't imagine this bothering him nearly as much as "Strawberry Fields," which was much more in the "Smile" vein.  I think he heard that song and felt that what he was trying to do was pointless now because it would seem like he was ripping off the Beatles.  It was an overreaction, in my opinion, but given how fragile his mental state was at the time, his mind made it seem catostrophic.  

I think they beat him in several ways. Like you point out, a lot of what Brian was trying to accomplish musically with 'Smile' was achieved with "SFF." The whole reason why he enlisted VDP is because he wanted lyrics EXACTLY LIKE THAT. Like he did with Asher on the romantic/personal '66 tunes, for 'Smile' he wanted words as deep as his music was heavy. By late '65, with Lennon/McCartney and Dylan's lyrics, Brian was undoubtedly feeling pretty suburban. As mindblowingly gorgeous as "Surf's Up" is, he's singing another dude's words. "Surf's Up" is LITERALLY perfect on every level, but -- like with 'Smile' as a whole -- there is a slight self-consciousness in it, a need for it to be "important" art that the Beatles (or previously Brian) never needed to chase down. "SFF" is pretty real. It's personal -- and was able to be universally personal. So much of 'Smile' is abstract, which in no way lessens the work or the achievement, but it makes it a far tougher listen than any of the Beatles' music.

The biggest Beach Boys hits -- "Fun," "I Get Around," "Rhonda," "California Girls" "Good Vibes" connected because Brian and Mike's words were coming from the same place as the music.  The same is true of Brian and Asher's work on 'Pet Sounds.' You couldn't see the seams, it sounded and felt effortless. 'Pepper' sounds effortless, fun and loving. 'Smile' is many things -- but not that. "Pepper" was able to hit the world's sweet spot. "Penny Lane" was 'Pet Sounds' on ecstasy -- with the unique thing that always eluded the Beach Boys -- sophistication. The Beatles were European. Stebbins and I were talking a while back about how even in '64 the Beatles seemed so much OLDER. They smoke, they drank, they were that much more hipper than everyone else. They were already men in Hamburg. "Penny Lane" has a European sophistication. They also weren't competitive about their art outside of the band.

I think Brian heard that single and thought -- "not only did they top what I just did, they're nailing what I'm doing NOW."

The main difference is that in 1967 (as they were able to do in every year they were in existence) the world listened to the Beatles and sighed "That's ME." It was as if their music was a sixth sense, or an extention of your own thoughts. There are many reasons why in 1967 a very, very, very small percentage of the world was listening to "Wonderful" and saying "That's ME." The Beatles had the blessing and luxury of being both timeless and timely. Brian was both of those things too, but in 1967 -- sadly, not at the same time. The Beatles beat everybody. It f*cked Brian up because he was the only one else in that "race." Due to their respective audiences and the nature of the business, the world at large wasn't eying Dylan or Holland-Dozier-Holland for the "Next Big Thing." By early 1967 I think it's safe to say the Brian was realising how very 1966 'Smile' was.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Howie.  Especially your last line about Brian realizing how "1966" Smile was...like I said before, the constant delays harmed Smile far more than Brian probably thought they would.   

I guess I just don't see something like "Strawberry Fields" as being universal and accessable.  Compared to "Surf's Up" or "Wonderful," sure, but I don't really hear any clear message in the lyrics.  I've always thought that it was the production that makes that song fly, not the lyrics.  With songs like that and "A Day In The Life," I think the Beatles were in the same self-important "artsy" place that Brian and Van Dyke were at when creating Smile. 

You seem to be suggesting that the Beatles "beat" Brian because they not only came first, but that they did it in a more effortless fashion with more accessable music.  I suppose I just don't really buy that.  Rather, I think that from the very beginning, the music world was more willing to accept growth and sophistication from the Beatles than they were from the Beach Boys.  The Beatles were free to do whatever they wanted artistically, and they certainly took advantage and constantly pushed the artistic envelope.  Pepper coming from the Beatles was an easier sell than Smile from the Beach Boys would have been. 
 

Again this is just me but with the exception of a few tracks (like SFF, A Day In The Life etc..) I have always thought that some of their stuff from around this time was over-rated...not saying I don't like it (I like almost all of the Beatles stuff to some degree) but I really don't understand Pepper... heck, George Harrison and Lennon weren't all that keen on the album either... And you also stated "The main difference is that in 1967 (as they were able to do in every year they were in existence) the world listened to the Beatles and sighed "That's ME.""... well I'm not so sure on that either... so people heard I Am The Walrus and thought "gee that's me"? Don't get me wrong I love I Am The Walrus but I think you are giving the Beatles too much credit in some cases... I just think The Beatles were better (on average) at making more catchy pop tunes that people could sing along to and dance to... but to me, that doesn't make it better.


Again, I dunno Howie, I thought SMiLE was him trying to do a whole album similar to Good Vibrations (and obviously that came out long before SFF)... I just think it's true that Brian was growing paranoid around this time. I mean think of the story with Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, him thinking he was being spied on by Murry, him seeing that movie that he thought Phil Spector made to get at him etc... I also reckon (as other people have said) that Brian just wondered "how do the Beatles seem to go to the #1 spot all the time"... I've heard him say he doesn't understand what all the fuss was over I Want To Hold Your Hand etc.. so as someone else said earlier for Pet Sounds to fail must've been heartbreaking after he put so much effort into it and yet the Beatles do the same sort of arty stuff and it flies to #1.... as Chris says, people were willing to accept growth and sophistication from the Beatles moreso than the Beach Boys.... and that (to me anyway) is SOOO damn true.... plus the Beatles were just better decision makers in terms of what to release and what not to release and they had better promotion etc...

Mikey -- a BILLION more people were thinking/feeling/saying "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together" than "Though it's hard I try not to look at my wind chimes" or "She'll return in love with her liberty."

This isn't opinion. It's history.

Oh yeah I agree, maybe I just misunderstood you.. I thought you were literally saying that people could relate to all of their songs on a literal level... I doubt anyone really thought "yeah I am a Walrus" :P

Sorry.... I'm guessing you meant when you said "That's ME", that you meant people were thinking "this is my kind of music?"... so yeah I would definitely agree with that... but as I say I just think aside from the music the Beatles had so much more going for them... and their music was just more accessible in most cases

All I Know is Lennon scared me, and it felt good...Tomorrow Never Knows, Strawberry Fields, A Day In The Life, I Am The Walrus...all of them scared me. I was 10, I was scared, and I couldn't stop listening to them. Its like he knew something had happened, or something was happening, or something was going to happen that us regular people didn't know about yet. That was trippy to experience in 66/67...and I didn't take acid until '77. But when I did, I'd kind of already been there thanks to Lennon. He and McCartney were brilliant at communicating feeling.

Brian seemed like he was scared right along with me, that's a different kind of appeal. He was sticking his toe in the scary places too...but you could tell he was at least as scared as you were. The dark parts of Good Vibrations, and Heroes and Villains...that's a terrified vision trying to whistle its way through the graveyard. Lennon never showed the slightest bit of fear...he just faced it head on and told us what it was like.

And don't forget, one of the Beatles' greatest strengths was that they were completly different from one another, yet remained a four-headed monster. The Beach Boys never seemed unified in the '60s after 1965.  They were also kinda visually anonymous, aside from Dennis and Mike. After Brian quit the road, it really wasn't until '68/'69 that they started looking cool onstage again.

It's interesting to think that in the modern age of artist/label relations, if one of the top acts on a label had the chart dissapointments of Pet Sounds, Smiley, and Wild Honey back to back, you can be sure that at the very least a huge turnover in the A&R department would've taken place. Ken Mansfield told me that Capitol never worked Beach Boys product, that it sold itself. Capitol is as much to blame for the post- Smile events as anyone "f***ing with the formula." (Someone hands you a Rembrandt and you can't sell it.)  

Yeah and they were all such witty individuals with so much charisma... I mean just look at some of their press conferences or interviews, they make you laugh... whereas look at the Beach Boys on that TV performance when they lip-synched DWB... it's almost embarrassing just how nervous and shy they look

Everything about the Beatles was uniquely universal, powerful and resonant and their music had an uncanny ability to unify people and make them relate to it.

The Beach Boys had a more delicate universality, especially in their pre-1965 work, but, although I won't call Brian's gift more special per se, it was geared to a more specific aesthetic
and was more polarizing, especially beginning with Pet Sounds. Each person either loved it more than anything in the world or was indifferent or even negative about it, whereas the
Fabs were simply irresistable, in a truly "cosmic" way. I remember when I first heard the White Album and all of Abbey Road, at an age relatively later than I first heard their earlier music, and
there was a totally seamless osmosis and assimilation of it into my mind and memory. Absolutely uncanny. Nobody else was like them.

Again, I'm not going to say that Brian's work was more special, and it's really not possible to
make these definitions  (it's interesting to try), But his best work was more ethereal and
had a mystical fragility to its eccentric and incredibly sensitive fabric.

That's a really interesting anecdote about Brian's reaction in the car with Michael Vosse. There
was a difficult-to-define threshold of originality and encapsulation of the cutting edge of the zeitgeist that the Beatles double A-side had that made Brian's reaction completely understandable, perceptive and correct, but Smile, while it couldn't have matched that univer-
sality, would have been an immortal reflection of an equally cutting-edge but more eclectic
vision of its time.

It's impossible to overstate the loss to the contemporary pop music world that Smile wasn't
able to be finished and released back then. :'( :'( :'(

Allow me to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion with a couple facts:

1.  Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever did NOT make it to #1 in the UK.  I believe I read somewhere this was the first Beatles single not to make it to the top there.  It was knocked out of first place by... Englebert Humperdinck's "Please Release Me". 

2.  The SFF/PL single made it #1 in the US, only for one week.


Obviously, the long-term impact and influence of this single greatly outweighs its initial chart success.  But could this lack of success (in comparison to earlier Beatles efforts) hint at the fact that the public bore at least some resistance to the rapidly changing music of the Beatles?  I would propose that the Beatles were facing a bit of the same resistance that Brian encountered with Pet Sounds.  The Beach Boys weren't the only one to f*** with the formula.

There are some really good points here. I agree with the posters arguing that the public were more open to artistic experimentation from the Beatles than the Beach Boys. After all, versatility and musical shapeshifting was the Beatles thing, whereas The Beach Boys were trying to pull a major stylistic turnaround with Pet Sounds, and even more so with Smile. This shift from surf and car songs demanded a major reappraisal from their audience. I also think that The Beatles always anchored their more far out experimental tracks with songs that everybody loved. Revolver therefore has Tomorrow Never Knows and Yellow Submarine - something for everyone. This is true for Pepper also, and if you look at the Strawberry Fields/Penny Lane single you have the wacked out Stawberry Fields for the growing number of heads out there, but flip it over and you have a song that my girlfriend used to sing in school assembly! Smile however has nothing as accessible.

The point about the European appeal of the Beatles is also a good one. I have been wondering recently how well the Americana theme of Smile would have been received outside The States. It is a very American record, and I wonder how interested Joe Public outside the States would have been in the mythical picture of America that VDP's lyrics paint. Strawberry Fields is a far out, experimental song, but on a very basic level it's a song about getting out of your head - everyone can relate to that. Certainly the growing masses in 67 who wanted to be hip and 'turned on' could sing it and relate to those lyrics. Most of the lyrics in Smile are completely abstract.

What about Good Vibrations?

I think all of this is interesting. Brian Jones said it best when asked how he compares his band the Rolling Stones to the Beatles. He said he doesn't because the Stones are a band and the Beatles a phenomenon. The Beatles had that extra charisma and great marketing. At the end of the day though I don't care who meant more culturally. I like the Beatles music very much. I collect their records and enjoy them. Yet I never cared about them the way I do about the Beach Boys. When I hear the Beach Boys music I relate more, I feel it deeper. There are some things about the Beatles as people that I don't understand. I cannot relate to some of their viewpoints or experiences. I mean in Europe young people seemed to have grown up so fast. I don't think Murry would have let his boys go to Hamburg to play in seedy clubs. 

Maybe this means I am crazy but I relate to the Beach Boys more as far as their background and upbringing. I wasn't abused or anything, but their story is very American and they really give off a very American vibe. That wasn't always the hip thing in the sixties, funnily enough especially in the USA. As odd as they are in some ways, I grew up with people like them. They have this everyday quality that let's me enjoy them that much more. I mean I read interviews with Dennis and he talks about how much he liked root beer and Playboys. I went through that stage. I never wanted to go to Art College or be existential. Sure Mike with TM folowed some of the same things, but he unlike George Harrison never lost his relateability. Granted later in life George seemed to regain some of his humor, but Mike remained that obnoxious class clown we all knew. Brian and Dennis certainly pursued some alternative avenues, but at the end of the day I still feel like they were the type of guys you could have a burger with. Most importantly though there aren't too many Beatles songs that mean to me what the Beach Boys music does. That's just my taste and no more right or wrong then anyones. I would rather play Wild Honey then Pepper any day.

MBE, I can very much relate to what you've written, though I come from Europe and more specifically even from that very country where the Beatles really kickstarted their career. For me it's hard to relate to the Beatles' more "earnest" or serious material, With A Little Help and When I'm Sixty-Four being far and away my favorite tunes on Sgt. Pepper. On the other hand there's a joyful or even funny quality to many Beach Boys songs and when there isn't you'll find yourself overwhelmed by the unexpected degree of sadness or plain directness. Like 'Til I Die, which is something you can relate to so easily and still it's such a profound kind of song.

Good Vibrations stood up to PL/SFF as well any other single in that era, and then some. But we're talking about February, almost five months later, and well... PL+SFF vs. Heroes and Villains (Cantina version). You can see Brian asking himself what the hell he was thinking. Hence the scrapping of the single release and back to the studio.

Considering SMiLE was pretty much canned at the point Sgt. Pepper was released and that Sgt. Pepper went on to become an insanely popular, highly influential record, I think that only contributed to Brian's problems with drugs and mental illness.

And Vega-Tables? And Wind Chimes? And The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine?

Good Vibrations I temporarily forgot about - of course it's accessible, but it's the only one of the Smile songs that truly is imo. I guess the benchmark for me is I can imagine my parents singing many of the songs from Sgt Pepper, in fact all bar maybe Benefit of Mr Kite and Within Without You. Maybe that's just because it's the most famous pop album ever, and by default the songs are sing-a-longable, I'm not sure, but if I try and imagine my parents singing Smile songs other than Good Vibrations and perhaps at a stretch H&V, the thought is completely absurd! Roll Plymouth Rock anyone?! Cabinessence?!! - these are not singalong lyrics!! Perhaps Vegatables is more accessible in its humour, but it does not have the same cross generational appeal as When I'm 64 and is not nearly as accessible a joke song. Maybe Barnyard might have appealed to kids, but undoubtedly Brian would've spliced it together with Swedish frog or something and it's nursery rhyme potential would've been entirely compromised. I'm not saying that Brian & VDP were trying and failing to create accessible songs. I think they were going on their own trip with Smile and the incomplete results are clearly breathtaking and beloved by all here, but I do think the uncommerciality of the music would've resulted in its eclipse by Sgt Pepper. I'm sure Brian wanted it to be a commercial success, but it must have slowly dawned on him that he and VDP were not creating that type of record. When VDP left the project I think he was totally lost as to what to do with Smile.

Phirnis it's interesting hearing it from somebody from England. I just get the feeling that while the Beatles were loved in their home country, the UK was more open to music that sounded very American at that time. Here their very Englishness made them more exciting.
Away from that though it is the universality of Til I Die that makes it better to me then something as subjective as Working Class Hero. I always felt you had to share certain viewpoints to really be a part of some of the Beatles music, on the other hand I feel the Beach Boys music (at lease after the Surf/Car period) speaks to everyone. Even with the early stuff as Mike once said if you couldn't relate to living by the Ocean, you could probably relate to wanting a cool car.

I actually meant Germany, but anyway. The universal appeal you're talking about is probably indeed most evident from 1965 onwards. That said, I can relate to the surf/car image just as well, though I don't even have a driver's licence myself. For someone living far away from a place like California, The Beach Boys' music can very easily develop a utopian quality and this quality is just as much represented by sound as it is by lyrics. The lifestyle portrayed in these songs is that of an almost universal fantasy of youth and carelessness normally absent from most European pop music (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Things like watching the Time To Get Alone video in An American Band is what really made me a hardcore fan. Now these guys seemed to be so comfortable with who they were and what they were doing, it was completely unusual to me and very infectious. It changed the way I was thinking about profoundness in music completely - and all for the better.

This is spot on - I think The Beach Boys music does evoke a sort of mythical ideal of youth, especially to non Americans who can imagine the California of the 60s as a utopia of sorts. I actually think the surf and car songs express this mythical California very effectively, but the peak of the Beach Boys as portrayers of this fantasy was Pet Sounds imo, as it describes the teen experience with great emotional depth, and it therefore has universal appeal. With the Beach Boys (quintessential Californian youths) singing about life as a Californian teen you have the perfect marriage of message and medium. The lyrics of Smile try to take a look at America on a larger, historical scale and deviate from portraying the teen experience (apart from GV, and perhaps Wonderful)  that characterizes all of their work up to that point. You now had Californian youngsters singing about the plight of the Native American, and the Chinese workers on the railroad. I think there's a huge dissonance here that would have recquired quite a suspension of disbelief from the record buying public - "What do these surf bums care about Native Americans?!"

Sgt Pepper's lyrics were abstract but still related to the Beatle's lives and the contemporary experiences of everyday people in the 60s: i.e going to a show (Sgt Pepper, Benefit of Mr Kite), friendship, drug-taking, leaving home, meter maids, getting out of bed, eating breakfast and reading the newspapers. It was pop art, and was absolutely in sync with the zeitgeist. Smile was a combination of pop music and high art that would have befuddled the public imo, and I wonder how much the Americana theme would have been commercially problematic. It asks the listener to take a trip back in time, and I also doubt that historical America would've had so much appeal to 60s non-American listeners as the contemporary Californian utopia the Boys had been portraying up to that point. Don't get me wrong, I love this element of Smile and I feel that Brian's grand cinematic music complements the lyrics perfectly, but I wonder if a Smile that had stuck predominately to girl/boy themes, perhaps from a psychedelic perspective (which is essentially what Good Vibrations was), might have been a more sellable prospect - to the public, and to the other skeptical beach Boys. This would have been a logical next step after Pet Sounds (Pet Sounds on acid!) and a viable Beach Boys record, whereas the abstract, historical concept of Smile would not have been.

It comes down to Van Dyke being a unique but resolutely uncommercial writer. Brian's melodies and vocal lines were, on the whole, in tune with what was selling, but the lyrics weren't. That said I am glad Brian attempted it because of that movie like quality. As incomplete as some of the songs are, the album would have won over people on the strength of the Beach Boys performance. They were truely singing (as Murry would say) with their hearts, even Mike did a grudgingly great job. The other thing though is Tommy sold, Quadrophenia sold, in the UK Smiley sold, there was a place for Smile. Sure the Who albums came some years later but there was a market for left field pop/rock.

Are we starting to come to the conclusion that MICHAEL LOVE was right about Smile? That would be interesting to see what he would've done with the lyrics. I really think that GV has very good lyrics (better then Tony Asher's). Do you really think Mike would've written Do It Again lyrics for Smile? Say what you will about Mike, but he is not that stupid!

Whether Mike was right or wrong about SMiLE, I'm kinda glad Brian got VDP to write the lyrics. I can't imagine those songs with any other words.

My thoughts:

!. I think without VDP the music would have been a lot different.
    a) I believe the music was dominated by BW but VDP added his bits and vice/versa for lyrics.

2. Had it been released, it would not have sold on a par with SGT. Pepper, but it would have sold better than Smiley Smile; and to this day I think that The Beach Boys would have had a lot more respect--and their albums would be in less danger of going out of print.

I think at some point Brian realized that all this sh*t was happening around smile--it was already impossibly hyped, Mike didn't like it, the record company probably didn't like it and he was already in trouble with them, and when SGT Pepper came out, he said, "f*** it, you guys win." Then he started making music that expressed himself rather than trying to make a sequence of "greatest albums ever." I think it was a healthy move.

Thing is, Sgt. Pepper is not a particularly great album. They made lots of much better records before and after that were much less self-indulgent. Its a triumph of hype over quality.

I think it's the best album ever made. Subjectivity wins out again.

Well, guess what? SMiLE is the best album ever, and Pepper blows donkey balls!! Subjectivity beats subjectivity!!!

:shrug

Obviously, Mike wouldn't written VDP lyrics but we wouldn't associate VDP lyrics with SMiLE either.  Mike would have done what he and all Brian's collaborators did, which is listen and try to get a sense of what Brian was after and do his best to fit in with that.

It is possible that SMiLE would have come out because they worked out lyrics which Brian didn't find to artsy and elaborate though Brian may still have felt his music wasn't right for vocals and was itself too artsy, elaborate, wrong mood, and the other objections Brian had with it.

Luther, I can never tell if you're being serious or not. Are you?

I can't believe no one's actually said this before, but even talking about SMiLE's lyrics being written by the Lovester is SACRILEGE!!! Love is the devil!!!
 :lol :lol :lolJust joking!

I know, sarcasm doesn't do well online. But yeah, on any given day, I do believe Sgt. Pepper is not only the best Beatles album, but the best album ever. Other times, it's neither of the aforementioned. But for me, it never falls out of my favorite half dozen or so albums--ten at most. I've loved pretty close to everything about it for as long as I've known it. Its general critical standing rises and falls some, but not with me. I think it's wonderful.

I'm surprised, Luther, but that's cool....

About Mike Love possibly writing lyrics for SMiLE....We are so far removed from the early/mid 1960's, that it's hard to realize that Mike Love's lyrics were actually "hip" for their time. The words to "Surfin' Safari", "Fun Fun Fun", "I Get Around", "California Girls", and "Good Vibrations" were "of that time".  We're four decades removed, and it was such an innocent time, but, in the Beach Boys' heyday, Mike was far removed from the parody he would become. I think Mike is too harshly judged by the "going back" lyrics on 15 Big Ones, MIU, KTSA, and SIP, that we don't give him enough credit for once being cool.

That being said, I'm not sure Mike could've handled the psychedelic vibe that was SMiLE (I know he wrote lyrics to "Good Vibrations"), but I also don't think it would've been as bad as most think. Again, if you follow Mike's progress from 1961 to 1974, his lyrics were actually quite good, almost all of them.

How the mighty have fallen that anyone would be surprised at anyone thinking highly of Sgt. Pepper.

No, no, no.... :-D Not surprised that you would think highly of Sgt. Pepper, but that you would consider it to be, on any given day, not only the Beatles best album, but THE BEST ALBUM EVER!

I always thought of you as being more "purist", and not so much a fan of "bells and whistles". But, I know you're a big fan of Freddie Mercury and Queen, so.... 8)

I love what strikes me as real pop: great melodies, good arrangements, songs to which I want to sing along. There is no band like the Beatles for that, and maybe no album like Pepper. (I know some people consider the songs weak on Pepper, but not me. I love them all.)

We have to mark this happening somehow--sound the alarms--
I completely agree with Luther. (No sarcasm)

I poop on SGT Pepper.

I wonder what SMiLE would have sounded like written by Mike. Actually, Mike was influenced by what Brian wrote. Mike wrote hip lyrics because Brian was writing hip music. They were collaborators. Mike likewise wrote more profound lyrics when Brian wrote, well, more profound music. "The Warmth of the Sun" is the most obvious example, but don't forget "She Knows Me Too Well", which to me is criminally underrated... it's in my top 5 BB songs, easily. Mike didn't become a joke until 15 Big Ones; he really was an important artistic force in the band until then.

That is a really good post Sheriff... couldn't agree more... some people like to criticize Mike for his early lyrics (even though they somehow seem to miss songs like Warmth of the Sun) even though in a lot of cases, that is what draws people to the band initially (not in my case, but I'm guessing for a lot of people) and as you say those lyrics were of the time... And as I have said before (and others too) most of Mike's lyrics fit with the overall feel of the music... I honestly can't imagine a "God Only Knows" type lyric over the top of a song like I Get Around or something... Mike just followed Brian's musical direction. And people also seem to forget that sometimes that Mike DID write the lyrics to "Good Vibrations" and most of their hits...

Ah sorry Billy, didn't see your post, but you make some of the same points as me... but yeah I agree with every word you say here... also I too love She Knows Me Too Well... GREAT song!! And also in my top 5 most of the time.

Luther I'm just curious (and I'm being honest here) on how you would rate each individual song out of 5? As I have stated numerous times, I'm not a big fan of Pepper except for a few of the songs so it'd just be interesting to hear your opinion on each individual track... I just talk to a lot of people who seem to think Pepper as being the greatest just cause either A) it's a production masterpiece and it was the first album to use the studio as an instrument (yes I have read that before) or B) they see it as the whole being greater than the sum of its parts....

Obviously you don't have to rate the songs if you don't want to, but I just think it'd be interesting.

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread very much.  I am now, for the first time really, considering what a SMiLE would’ve been like with some (not all) Love lyrics.  I think using Van Dyke was a great idea, and I like his lyrics to Heroes and Villains, and Wonderful, and Cabinessence, and Surf’s Up a lot.  I wouldn’t change a word of those songs.  But I think one of the reasons that the Beatles remained so popular during the psychedelic era was that they had Lennon doing the abstract SFF type lyrics, and they had Paul writing more mainstream lyrics for the masses.  It was the best of both worlds.  What if Mike had been asked to write lyrics for some of the other songs on SMiLE.  I can imagine Wind Chimes with Mike lyrics.  Maybe the song is no longer about Wind Chimes (maybe Sunshine or something), but I think that one has a very commercial melody.  Maybe that’s all Mike was looking for…something hip, but commercial and accessible, like Good Vibrations.  And with some more support from Mike (and others), maybe Brian would’ve had an easier time completing the album.           

I don't know. I thought Smile was intended to be cohesive. Brian wanted avant-garde music and that was what he created - the chord changes and overall sound were meant to be disconcerting.  He was helped with the music as well as the words, to a certain extent. That's my take, at any rate.

I'll start a thread in the non-BBs music forum for it.

And I think this is what was so fantastic about the Beatles, that you had two brilliant writers that so perfectly complimented each other, and covered both the arty and popular bases. They also looked great - the perfect band in so many ways. The Beach Boys didn't have nearly the same unity, and so would never have been able to produce as popular a record as Sergeant Pepper. But I think Brian had the edge in producing emotive music. I think he was able to create music that was more emotionally expressive than the beatles. I think Pet Sounds is a greater piece of art than anything the Beatles ever did. I just wish BW had managed to get it together to make his definitive psychedelic statement. I don't think it would have been as in tune with the 'now' as Sergeant Pepper was, or as together a record, but anything that contained Cabinessence, Heroes & Villains, Surf's Up, Worms, Wonderful, Child is father of The Man & Good Vibrations, would have been an immensely fulfilling and stimulating album and its lasting critical acclaim could quite likely have endured much better than Pepper has.

Seems like the argument is; it's better to be right in the middle of the road rather than carving an entirely new path. I agree with Lance and poop on the Pepper!

I don't think that SMiLE would have been SMiLE with Mike's lyrics.  Mike has a talent for writing words that express straightforward, simple, everyday things, sometimes with a clever twist of phrase.  But obviously his words were too corny or straightforward for Brian at the time and weren't turning him on or in tune with the music he was creating - otherwise, Brian wouldn't have sought out another lyricist in the first place.

As for GV, I personally like some of Tony Asher's lyrics better than Mike's.  The stuff about "it's weird how she comes in so strong" and "I wonder what she's picking up from me" capture the whole vibrationessence thing better for me, and I'm glad Brian used them on BWPS.  I just wish that he'd gotten Tony or Van Dyke to give him a new opening line.  "I love the colorful clothes she wears" doesn't go smoothly into "and she's already working on my brain."

Anyway, I don't think that even letting Mike do some of the lyrics on SMiLE would've helped Brian.  Mike probably still would've hated that the music wasn't following the formula, and 1967-2003 would thus still have been the era of "Brian Wilson Prevents SMiLE."

Pepper is an OK record, but not really as mind-blowing as its been purported to be in the press over the past 40 years or so. It has some good songs, but with the exceptions of For the Benefit of Mr. Kite, A Day In The Life, and maybe Lucy In The Sky, it doesn't really stand up to SMiLE or even some parts of Pet Sounds. Pepper can be an enjoyable listen, but it never grabbed me emotionally the way Pet Sounds did. Really, its the harmonies, and just the sincerity in the boys' voices that often times make me want to listen to the BBs rather than the Beatles. I still enjoy listening to Beatles' music, but it's mostly the pre-Pepper stuff plus about 3/4 of the White Album that I enjoy the most. There are psychedelic albums I'd rather listen to than Pepper. Their Satanic Majesties Request, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn, both SMiLE and Smiley Smile, and to a certain extent, Odessey and Oracle engage me more than most of the songs on Sgt. Pepper.


EDIT: To answer people talking about Mike Love writing lyrics for SMiLE, I've said it once, and I'll say it again... PHOOEY!! Do we really want to hear a SMiLE tune with lyrics a la Amusement Parks USA or Salt Lake City? Those are nice songs, but SMiLE is on a whole 'nother level. Van Dyke's lyrics are part of the charm of SMiLE. VDP's involvement is one of the reasons I love SMiLE! If we're going to talk about SMiLE with different lyricists, what if Gary Usher, Roger Christian, Bob Norberg, Steve Kalinich, Jack Reiley, or Geoffrey Cushing-Murray wrote the lyrics to SMiLE?

Van Dyke Parks and Brian Wilson combined (and combine) to form a brilliant, symbiotic, ephemeral,
organic entity that is not duplicable by any other combination. Each songwriting partnership that Brian has been involved with has had its own merits and could be taken on its own terms (except perhaps
Wilson/Landy) but Smile was a brilliant creation which only could have sprung exclusively from those
two minds.

Sgt. Pepper could be said to have a couple of songs that could almost qualify as "filler". Lovely Rita
and When I'm 64 come to mind (I can hear it now: "BLASPHEMY!") George Martin himself was quoted
as saying that one of the greatest regrets of his whole Beatles producer tenure was deciding not to
put Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane, which as you all know were recorded earlier but released later,
on Sgt. Pepper. That would have made for a serious mind-blower!

I don't think there would have been anything on a 1966-1967 completed and released "Smile" that wouldn't have been lean, essential and absolutely integral to the conceptual integrity of the album as
a whole. :'(

It's always easier to use your own examples isn't it? Salt Lake City and Amusement Parks USA? Come on, Mike wrote plenty of lyrics better than that and you know it... whether or not he could have written lyrics for SMiLE is debatable but Mike was more capable than some people give him credit for... I have said this before, but I reckon Mike could have done a good job with Pet Sounds but I'm not so sure about SMiLE.

good word-joke  :)

Agreed! I think the inclusion of those songs would have made Pepper far less vulnerable, almost dare I say, immune to criticism. How could you fault an album including Strawberry Fields, Penny Lane, With a Little Help from my Friends, She's Leaving Home and A Day in The Life? Hell, they could have put Maxwell's Silver Hammer on there and it'd still have been the greatest album ever made!!

The question is, what would you swap SFF and PL for?! personally I'd swap SFF for Lucy In The Sky, and Penny Lane for When I'm 64, and I don't think the overall sequencing and character of the album would be altered that much.


I'm not so sure. I don't think Vegatables is anything special (although we have no idea what form the song would have taken on a 67 release) and we don't know how songs such as I'm in Great Shape, The Elements and Old Master Painter would have ended up, but they could well have turned out to be arguable 'filler', or beautiful yet slightly unfocused experiments in Brian's modular composition technique, or perfect mini-suites that complemented the grander songs - Who knows? I guess it's impossible to say, but I do suspect that Brian and VDP would have struggled to unify all the concepts of Smile into a focused album. It's more likely that it would have been a spawling, albeit achingly beautiful, mess imo.

I guess I like BWPS better than Sgt. Pepper's, but of course it would not have been released that way. But even if it had been released, sequenced that way(like say a finished purple chick mix) it would have not been a number one album. Other than Good Vibrations it would not have had a great single on it--well, Heroes and Villains, maybe, but that is not a top five hit, the kind that pushes an album to the top spot at an extremely competitive time. It pushed boundaries in a different way than SGT Pepper, which was sort of a triumph of production detail and engineering--I think both those elements are really what makes Pepper Pepper. With Smile it is more about the vibe and the eerie/beautiful feeling--yeah, that music moves me more, but Sgt. Pepper is infinitely more commercial.

Mike liked most of the music in truth, but Van Dyke is a big part of what makes Smile different. I think Mike could have added a few hooks to some of the tracks, but Van Dyke had a vision that was right for Brian at that moment. I love Tony Ashers work on Pet Sounds but nothing else he did with Brian impressed me. I think his Good Vibrations lyrics are very rough.

This isn't about your post really but I like to say this every so often. Brian ultimately expressed a lot of doubt himself once Van Dyke left the project so it's not fair to keep harping on Mike. Brian was the leader then and Mike didn't make many major decisions for the band until Murry died and his brother became manager. I just don't see that Smiley would have been OK if Smile wasn't. It doesn't make sense. Sure Mike had one or two more credits but it's not significant in that Smiley is very uncommercial. Brian lost faith in it and that's the final factor that ended Smile. Peter Aims Carlin made this point very eloquently in his book when talking about the Heroes Leid In Hawaii spoof.

Speaking if singles. How many were pulled from Sgt. Pepper? Unless I'm mistaken that number was zero (although With A Little Help and Lucy got a lot of airplay I think).
Maybe it would've been one step too far for Capitol and/or the Boys, but except maybe for H&V, Brian could've been mainly aiming for a great album and not for a string of hitsingles. Sgt. Pepper didn't need one (a hitsingle), why would SMiLE?

Good point.

No this is true. I often listen to The piano demo of Don't Talk and just marvel at how, with BW's best songs, the emotion was already there before he even went near a studio. I always find that demo breathtaking. If only he'd done similar demos for other songs on Pet Sounds. Can you imagine a Brian piano demo of God Only Knows?! Beatles songs don't pack quite the same punch for me, although hearing early versions of Strawberry Fields and Day In The Life is pretty stunning.

There were no singles taken from PEPPER because "SFF/Penny" was pulled as a teaser, and "All You Need Is Love" followed only five weeks later. It was also part of the '67 EMI contract that no compilations or singles without their choosing could be slapped on the market without their complete consent. Never forget, going as far back as 1964 in the States, the Beatles were the first AOR group with their ENTIRE albums recieving saturation airplay on AM then eventually FM stations. 'The White Album' also had no singles pulled from it. A Beatles LP WAS a single.

Had SMILE come to fruition, I believe, "Vegetables" was Brian's ONLY shot at a Top Five.

You're right.  I shouldn't have put so much of the blame on Mike as he was only one part of the negativity Brian was experiencing.  When you listen to interviews about how the SMiLE songs were created, Brian always says that Van Dyke helped with some of the music and direction.  It makes sense that he really needed Van Dyke to help tie everything together back then, just as he did with BWPS, and therefore lost confidence and became filled with doubt once Van Dyke left.

It's kind of like "A Day in the Life" on "Sgt. Pepper."  John had the verses, Paul had the "I'd love to turn you on" bit and the bridge, and both had ideas about the orchestral freakout section.  That song wouldn't have turned out like it did without their ideas coming together.  Similarly, SMiLE just wouldn't have been what it was/is without the intimate association of Brian and Van Dyke.

Ganz Allein very good post. It's really hard to be objective because Smile is this big legend now. I understand why Mike was concerned about some of the lyrics as they are more poetic then almost anything done in rock up to that point. I also understand why Brian felt hurt about Mike's reservations, but after the Fire sessions he wasn't so sure about the album either. Van Dyke probably felt that Brian wasn't sticking up for him enough. As late as May Mike made a comment about Smile coming out, and Brian was holding some sessions so I don't know if there was one definite thing that stoped the album.  The Capitol lawsuit may be the answer as there was some question as to if the Beach Boys were even staying with the label. By the time the dust settled I think they just wanted to put an album out after so long a wait and thus we got Smiley. I mean there were still plans to issue Smile on brother in late 1967 so who knows really. I suspect that Brian and the others were moving in a different direction musically and simply wanted to record their new material.

While I agree with you on this, do you not think the reason we have this response to the demo could be because we already know the song and therefore relate it to the song?

I say this because I even found it a little thrilling hearing brian play the opening to Sail On Sailor on piano for the podcast series and if you seperate it from the song it probably wouldn't sound AS impressive.

I just don't buy Derek Taylor's "Brian locking himself in his room" reaction to Sgt. Pepper, as someone else mentioned in this thread. Doesn't sound right. Sure, I'm betting the album blew Brian away, but good god, that's just hyperbole. The Beatles blew his mind once more, and then Brian worked on Smiley Smile. It's not like he locked himself away in depression and coping with his hangups, like so many say. That came later.

I've got to tell you that I think Good Vibrations is one of the greatest pop songs in history and a lot of it has to do with Mike Love's lyrics, which he wrote by himself. I also feel that the lyrics to Good Vibrations are better than any of the lyrics Van Dyke Parks came up with for Smile EXCLUDING Surf's Up. The lyrics to Good Vibrations and Surf's Up are equally powerful.

I'm a pretty big Mike Love apologist, but most people don't know the lyrics to Good Vibrations.

 ???

Got to disagree with you a bit here.  Good Vibrations is indeed one of the greatest pop songs ever, but I don't think it had virtually anything to do with the lyrics.  The music and production was so innovative that I honestly don't believe the lyrics made any difference.  It would have been a hit with any lyrics, whether written by Mike, Tony Asher, Van Dyke, whoever. 

Don't get me wrong, I think Mike's lyrics are great (slightly better than Asher's, in my opinion).  But ultimately the song was so successful because it was musically inventive, and pushed the limits of how the recording studio could be used as an instrument in and of itself.  On the list of elements that make Good Vibrations a great song, the lyrics don't rank that high for me.

I mean, I usually don't like it when people say Mike Love's contributions are worthless and Brian is the reason all the songs hit it big, but I think in the case of Good Vibrations, I believe that was the case. I like the lyrics, but before I became an obsessive Beach Boys fan I had no idea what they were and I think most casual fans don't know any of the words to the song other than "I'm pickin' up Good Vibrations".

I don't think casual listeners really care about lyrics at all. You can sing about taking out the garbage and as long as the song's got a good hook, people will be into it...