Print Page - New book-with some rare BB photos....

Just thought I'd mention-I picked up a copy of Dominic Priore and Brian Chidester's (of Dumb Angel Gazette fame) new book- Pop Surf Culture. The book is not about the BBs per se...but it does have some great photos of the group. Most interesting are five photos I have never seen anywhere. 1) There is a color photo from 1971-72 of Brian recording with David Sandler for the Spring album- Brian is seated at a moog wearing headphones, while a shirtless Sandler blows on a sax. 2) A circa 1970 photo of Brian at the Radiant Radish-from the same photo session as the only other Radish photo I have seen-but this b/w photo is new to me- Brian in his striped robe, is writing a receipt at the cash register. 3) Some 1962 photos of the group posing with a fan-that were apparently taken during their residency at Pandoras Box-shows Brian, Dennis, Dave, Mike, Carl in their original Pendleton jackets with fan. There is a 2nd photo of Dennis with the same fan. 4) A photo taken in Australia in 1964 that shows the group holding up Little Pattie-a young pop singer. Brian and Mike are holding her in their arms-while the other BBs crouch beneath them 5) There is also a cool color snap of the BBs in their Pendleton jackets performing in 1963-with Brian and Dave. The book is not really a BB book and you won't find any new info on them, but it is a cool book-with great photos of the era- Dale, Surfers, etc.

Nothing rare for the slightly better than average BBoy fan, although the book also contains discography sections for the surf period on The Honeys, Jan & Dean, Gary Usher groups etc...

It is an attempt to list all the known released 'surf' influenced records from the period, which includes both 'vocal' and 'instrumental' styles.

I think it is fair to say that the majority of the releases documented are independant small label releases from 'one shot wonders' (The Frogmen are in there for example), (although perhaps not the best example as they released more than one record!), complimented by full discographies of the heavy-weights of the genre (Dick Dale, Bel-Airs, Surfaris, Lively Ones, Chantays, Eddie & The Showmen, Challengers et al.)

It's a great reference book for any one who collects records from the whole genre, sections on singles, albums, and surf films are all sprinkled with colour pictures of record labels, period reviews and news clippings, promo (and otherwise) photos (mainly B/W)...

Not for the average BBoy fan but highly recommended for anyone with more than a psssing interest in the whole 60s surf shebang.

Quote from: Malc on December 30, 2008, 12:12:51 AM

I also note that the discography of Hot-Rod Music is having a re-issue - but, as someone who has both earlier editions, is the updated Surf Discog worth getting ? Is there THAT MUCH difference ??? 8)

Well, previously I had the 2nd edition of the Surf Music Discography which I got directly from John in the early/mid 80s... In comparing that to this new 4th edition, there is much more record information included, although there are several albeit obscure photos/flyers which appear in both books. But on the other hand there are many photos I'd never seen before, including what appears to be an early picture of The Surfaris, (in addition to the one of them and Little Pattie), one of The Surf Bunnies,The Beach Girls and one of The Blazers are just some that spring to mind... :)

I never got the 3rd edition as I believe the original plan was to publish both the 'Surf' and "Hot Rod' discographies in the one book, I hung out for that although with the passage of time a combined issue never came to pass...

So, as for the difference between editions 3 and 4 of the Surf discography, obviously I can't say... ???

I'm still glancing through it at the moment having not yet got down to any 'serious' study, but I have noticed many tracks which featured on the compilations "Surfin' In The Midwest", "The Surfer's Mood" , "The Surf Creature", "Strummin' Mental" etc. which did not feature in the 2nd edition are now there, (things like 'Boondocker' by The Clashmen for example :o), with band line-up and full release details where known. But there are also many unheard (by me) new additions...

But Malc, I'm sure you know what this book is all about!

At the risk of repeating myself, perhas not for the armchair surf music fan, but if you're one of those people who are interested to discover the recorded output of Ray Hunt and The (pre Lively Ones) Surf Men, and to tick the tracks off as you collect/buy/exchange them, then this book is for you! :-D

Although there are some annoying factoid errors in this book, I heavily recommend it to any BB's fan or surf fan or popular culture fan. It truly is a gorgeous and well thought out presentation. I'm a fan of Domenic's work and i consider him one of my inspirations for getting involved in writing books. He digs up stuff that no one has seen, over and over. But Domenic is a strange combination, he's as good a researcher as there is anywhere. On the other hand he's not a good fact checker, he lets stuff slip through the cracks that is easily provable to be wrong, and he has trouble admitting when he's called on it. All his books have this combination of wonderful discoveries and wrong factual turns. But to me Domenic is unique and I'll always be happy to see more from him. Too many authors get too precious or even serious with their work and words, there is no sense of fun or discovery in what they present. Domenic never has this problem. He's irreverent, he's controversial, he is sometimes off base, he can be difficult, but i wish there were a few more Rock authors like him. His passion carries him through and he gets things done.

Brian Chidester is an incredibly sharp person. He has tremendous aesthetic judgment and taste. Brian is also a passionate person when it comes to getting things done. This book really shows off Brian's talents. I admire these guys and I totally LOVE this book. Buy it and you will too. Don't get too hung up on the errors, appreciate the fact that you will learn things and see things that you cannot anywhere else. Its not as if this is a Keith Badman info bible that turns out to be filled with bad info. Pop Surf Culture is a pastiche, an overview, a window into a universe that's gone...and above all its FUN! Nice job Brian and Domenic.

Here is the research I did two years ago and the Stebbins info.
Re: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread
« Reply #407 on: October 02, 2006, 06:14:19 AM »

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Ok I watched the film and a little bit about it.
Badman says One Man's Challenge was filmed 7-28-62. I agree with that by looking at them and knowing their chronology. As far as the music, first I will list what the credits say. Music by the Beach Boys and the Raindrops. Title song "the Hitchhiker" by the Genteels. So here is what I found the Genteels were a real group on Capitol who released a single of that song. Roger Christian narrates the film. Some of the music is played live or synched by a very young band that must be the Raindrops. Some of the film music sounds very pre rock nothing like Brian's stuff. Some of it has a generic "surf" instrumental sound. These seem to match the music played by the Raindrops when they are shown on screen. One track sounds a little like "What'd I Say". Another has vague similarities to Surf Jam but nothing that I would notice if I wasn't looking for it. Nothing sounds like All Summer Long to me. Nothing sticks out as being Brian Wilson or the Beach Boys. I am 95 percent convinced that nothing other then Surfin' Safari was recorded by the Beach Boys or Brian for the film. There is certainly a chance that they did but Brian did not carry much clout yet so I doubt he would have been asked to score a film. I could be wrong but I hope this can at least be seen as an educated guess.

Jon Stebbins
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Re: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread
« Reply #408 on: October 02, 2006, 10:39:57 AM »

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MBE's right. What ended up being the hit version of Surfin' Safari was recorded in April '62 before the band was signed. They signed their initial agreement with Capitol in May. The One Man's Challenge footage is from late July '62. It was filmed prior to a BB's gig at the Azusa Teen Club, where they played regularly that summer. The question is where does the audio generate from. David Marks recalls them setting up and playing live for the cameras. The track sounds very live to me. The footage looks staged. The film makers may have taken the audio from one take and then had the guys do a more camera friendly visual take. that's my guess. I'd bet that it was all done the same day...and what you hear in the film is exactly like the BB's sounded in summer '62. Notice the guitars are MUCH bigger than on any World Pacific stuff. The reason is they switched to Fender equipment just as Dave entered the group in late February. Al points out himself in the new DM book that he wanted no part of the electric rock sound and that was all developed by Carl and David. He also admits that it subsequently opened a whole new world for Brian.

Personally I don't think any of the other music in OMC has anything to do with the BB's. I sat and watched the film with David recently and he felt the same.

So let me get this straight...

You guys have basically claimed that Domenic and I did not do our proper fact check here, with your own claims attesting to being certain beyond certain that the BBs involvement in OMC was factual proven incorrect. And then you come back with THIS?

David Marks' recall to John Stebbins some 40 odd years later? The same guy who was 13 years old at the time, and playing how many number of malt shops and rec halls? So, we are to believe Dave Marks over Dale Smallin, who directed and produced the film? I'll have you know, Domenic Priore worked at Dodger Stadium with Dave Marks in the '80s, and not only did Dale Smallin confirm the BBs involvement with the OMC soundtrack, but Dave Marks said the same to Domenic.

So Marks said one thing to Domenic in the '80s, something else to Stebbins two decades later.

See, and here I thought you guys were going to have Raindrops sessions sheets or master logs from the editing booth or something. You have your ears and ONE contradictory claim from Dave Marks? It's utterly preposterous that you could take our research abilities to task when you literally have NOTHING here.

Look, we covered over 100 years of surfing in the arts for this book. Two sources confirming the BBs involvement with OMC seems to be enough fact-checking. Furthermore, we asked Alan Boyd multiple times over about early '60s Beach Boys research. I sat with him on the phone for hours going over early '60s titles that he might have come across in the Brother vault or the Capitol vault. He never ran across anything on OMC. We contacted Dick Clark Productions about logs on OMC, way before we ever started "Pop Surf Culture." No one had anything hard and fast. If the BBs were proven NOT to have recorded the backing music, fine. We'd be more than happy to list the proper band. But, the next best thing was to take the director/producer at his word. And yes, the melody of "Surf Jam" IS a part of the background music soundtrack, delivered in the same minimal recording technique applied to the rest of the soundtrack, which wasn't out of the ordinary for a band that just recorded, essentially, a garage 45 for Candix. Even the BBs' first Capitol album isn't a massive production, but I'm sure the fidelity of Capitol Studios could trump those of anything Smallin or Hite Morgan could afford. Comparing ANYTHING by Brian from 1962 to the All Summer Long productions is ridiculous.

Whoa Brian...I said I love the book, and I didn't bring the thing about OMC up. That wasn't me. Domenic has written plenty of things through the years that other people have found less than credible...that's no bulletin...his latest Smile book gets a constant pounding on these boards(not by me). I was referring to the fact that perfect 100% correctness does not bother me because I love where he is coming from. That was my point, go back and read my comments on the book again. But just because someone was there, as in the case of this director Smallin, doesn't automatically make it true(supporting evidence would be good and I don't see any anywhere, including listening to the material). There was a well circulated anecdote(maybe by Domenic) that the BB's didn't sing on Surfer Girl, the story was that it was Brian's friends who sang with him on it(Norberg, Survivors?) while the BB's were on tour. That anecdote came directly from Norberg i believe, and anyway its not true...all you have to do is listen to the session and you can obviously hear its the five Beach Boys and no one else. Brian once said its Al Jardine singing with Carl on Summertime Blues...but its not...Al was not there, his voice doesn't sound like that... its Dave Marks singing with Carl...so should we not believe the guy who produced and arranged the session? Yes. Hite Morgan once said Dennis wasn't on the Surfin' session... but just listen to the record, his voice is obviously on it. Should we not believe the guy who ran the session? Yes. Hal Blaine says he played the drums on Surfin' USA...except he didn't. Carole Kaye says she played rhythm guitar on that song, except she didn't... and she also said that Carl didn't play the lead...except he did. I could fill a hundred pages with anecdotes and remembrances from people who were "there" or worked on the material that are not factually true. Sometimes they are the worst resources for facts. Dave Marks has said a lot of thingsin the past that didn't hold up to scrutiny, but you'll notice that most if not all of them were said while he was a drunk and a drug addict, as in precisely when he worked with Domenic and told him about OMC. Dave's been sober for 8 or 9 years now. His memory is very very solid, but more than that he knows the BB's sound when he hears it. I was someone who believed the music on OMC does not sound at all like the BB's...my opinion...that's where the basis of my hunch that its not them generates from...from my ears. With that in mind I sat and watched the film with Dave(sober Dave) and we paused and rewound and listened to all of that stuff...and he was very sure it was not them. That's what I believe, my opinion backed by Dave's who would know his guitar and Carl's when he heard it. If there was evidence to contradict this other than one person's recollection, (yes he was the director but he didn't play the music... and guitar playing is like a fingerprint) I'd be the first to admit I'm wrong. Anyway, i really have no interest in needing to be right on this matter...your opinion nis as good as mine...I trust what Dave told me because it was carefully considered, you trust Smallin for the previous stated reasons. My ears are the tie breaker for me, apparently your ears tell you something different. It wouldn't end my world if it turned out to be the opposite of what i believe. All of our books have things in them that can be refuted or even disproven, hopefully ours have less of that and much more absolute truth. But the bottom line is, that Pop Surf Culture is a damn great book, that's what I was trying to say...and I'm a fan.

John,

I have no beef with you, and I appreciate your kind words about the book. You and I have a mutual admiration society that doesn't need restating in public, but at every turn, you and I have tried to make laudatory comments about eachother's work, and I know you mean it as much as I do. Thank you, as always.

And I respect your opinion about what you hear on the film. I also respect what David has gone through, and his efforts to clear the deck of misnomers over the years. That being said, "Pop Surf Culture" was taken to task here... not by you... and the OMC example was labeled "a huge error," of which, our claim has been definitely refuted. It has not.

Furthermore, whether it is the Raindrops or the Beachboys... besides not being definitely known at this time... the Beachboys' "Surf Jam," in an early version, is played on OMC. Therefore, whether they played that themselves or the Raindrops played a new BW song in '62... we are still talking about, at least, some of OMC being soundtracked by the BBs. I'm still going with Dale Smallin until further evidence pops up.

But, regardless of whether or not Domenic has been questioned in the past, I would hope that people would allow for his reputation to grow positively as well as negatively, should the work warrant it. In the case of "Pop Surf Culture," it was co-written by ME. I may have posted my share of good AND bad information on a message board, where it is conversational in nature, but so far as my publishing goes, I always try to do fact checks thoroughly. Granted, some things will always be up for refutation, and evidence can always evolve further to create more clarity. I just was astounded that someone would take the entire book to task based on something we wrote that was not only NOT refuted, but far as I can tell, NOT an error, nor a "huge error." Until further evidence, we are very much in the right here. We went on the evidence we had:

[1] Dale Smallin's claim that the BBs recorded the soundtrack.

[2] Dave Marks' claim that the BBs recorded the soundtrack. In fact, he told Domenic that he remembered the session being a quick one-day thing.

[3] An early version of "Surf Jam" on there, which is NOT the live performance.

Quote from: brianc on March 25, 2009, 10:33:35 AM

So let me get this straight...

You guys have basically claimed that Domenic and I did not do our proper fact check here, with your own claims attesting to being certain beyond certain that the BBs involvement in OMC was factual proven incorrect. And then you come back with THIS?

David Marks' recall to John Stebbins some 40 odd years later? The same guy who was 13 years old at the time, and playing how many number of malt shops and rec halls? So, we are to believe Dave Marks over Dale Smallin, who directed and produced the film? I'll have you know, Domenic Priore worked at Dodger Stadium with Dave Marks in the '80s, and not only did Dale Smallin confirm the BBs involvement with the OMC soundtrack, but Dave Marks said the same to Domenic.

So Marks said one thing to Domenic in the '80s, something else to Stebbins two decades later.

See, and here I thought you guys were going to have Raindrops sessions sheets or master logs from the editing booth or something. You have your ears and ONE contradictory claim from Dave Marks? It's utterly preposterous that you could take our research abilities to task when you literally have NOTHING here.

Look, we covered over 100 years of surfing in the arts for this book. Two sources confirming the BBs involvement with OMC seems to be enough friggin'. Furthermore, we asked Alan Boyd multiple times over about early '60s Beach Boys research. I sat with him on the phone for hours going over early '60s titles that he might have come across in the Brother vault or the Capitol vault. He never ran across anything on OMC. We contacted Dick Clark Productions about logs on OMC, way before we ever started "Pop Surf Culture." No one had anything hard and fast. If the BBs were proven NOT to have recorded the backing music, fine. We'd be more than happy to list the proper band. But, the next best thing was to take the director/producer at his word. And yes, the melody of "Surf Jam" IS a part of the background music soundtrack, delivered in the same minimal recording technique applied to the rest of the soundtrack, which wasn't out of the ordinary for a band that just recorded, essentially, a garage 45 for Candix. Even the BBs' first Capitol album isn't a massive production, but I'm sure the fidelity of Capitol Studios could trump those of anything Smallin or Hite Morgan could afford. Comparing ANYTHING by Brian from 1962 to the All Summer Long productions is ridiculous.

Upon reading your reply I can see you were offended by my comment and I am sorry if I came off harsh. Looking at it now it reads a lot more nasty then I meant it. I liked the book a lot-bought two of them in fact. Perhaps you didn't spot that I gave it high marks otherwise but as you yourself point out there is only anecdotal evidence that they did the soundtrack. To say we have nothing.. I mean Jon sat down and watched the thing with David which I am sure would have been the first time he saw the whole thing in decades. I wrote "Title song "the Hitchhiker" by the Genteels. So here is what I found the Genteels were a real group on Capitol who released a single of that song." is that not proof that the Beach Boys did not do the title song?

I am not going to dismiss what you guys did at all. It sounds like you did a good job tracking down info, but unless paperwork comes up I am not 100 percent convinced. I hear some vaguely similar riffs to Surf Jam personally, but not the exact song. Again the film credits also make me question that the Beach Boys did anything but Surfin Safari. Now that I know what went in to your work I am a lot more open to the fact the Beach Boys may have done something here, and again I am sorry about how I rushed to judgement before I knew the facts behind your and Domenic's work.

P.S. I took mine and Jon's posts from the Peter Aims Carlin thread where Bob Haines asked me to watch the movie. He made the All Summer Long comment-I am responding to it. http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,1337.400.html
Mike

Hi MBE,

I'm sorry if I came across as too harsh, and believe me, I think it's very interesting that Dave Marks watched the movie with John Stebbins, and I acknowledge an artist's guitar-sound being akin to the fingerprint of a musician. That being said, we went with the information we had. Beyond that, we never claimed that the main theme was written by the Beachboys, nor performed by them. In fact, both Domenic and myself have the Genteels 45, and sought it out because of the OMC movie. We both have DJ'd "The Hitchhiker" at clubs and on Luxuria radio. That's one of THEE classic examples of the beatnik surf aesthetic.

If it came across that I was suggesting that the main theme was by the Beachboys, I know I would have never meant to imply that. I know it was never in anything I published, but it might have seemed like I was implying that on a message board post. However, again, the thought never crossed my mind.

Thanks to all for your very kind comments. Apologies if I seemed a bit overly protective. Hopefully, someday we will have more to go on than memories and ears. Some session contractual info or master tapes would go a long way.

Brian

Quote from: brianc on March 25, 2009, 10:33:35 AM

So Marks said one thing to Domenic in the '80s, something else to Stebbins two decades later.

Since there are conflicting accounts and both are using David as a witness, I ran this past him for clarification. He doesn't deny saying that to Dominic (although he doesn't remember it) but he said that he was so coked-up and drunk (besides having general bitterness towards anything Beach Boys) when he was hanging out with Dominic 20 years ago that he wouldn't trust anything he said back then...he just didn't care! He also said in another interview around that same time that he was in the Beach Boys until 1965, so there you go....

On the other hand, I was there when Jon and David were meticulously analyzing OMC - and there was certain things about watching that movie that spurred some very specific memories - for example, hearing the sound track reminded him that he and Carl wrote an instrumental together that was never recorded but was performed live many times called Blue City.

Anyway, David was pretty clear-headed, and in a reminiscent and positive frame of mind when they went over that soundtrack, and the conclusion he came to after listening to actual musical evidence is obviously different than whatever he may have said to Dominic off the cuff w/out any thought or regard for facts. And for what its worth, today sober-and-reacquainted-with-the-music Dave says he has no memories of recording that soundtrack.

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for your post. I don't know the exact circumstances of David 20 years ago versus David today. I'm sure you guys are in a better position to judge his state than I am. And I appreciate the input. It is worth quite a lot. However, without documentation to prove otherwise, it is simply Dale's word versus David's word.

As for the bit in my book, it might have been a bit too much information to talk about the instrumentals in OMC, while at the same time trying to explain the lost masters and session information to the reader. Most readers would simply not be interested in the fact checking details of a soundtrack that we considered already confirmed. That stuff is, obviously, best left to the discussion forums. If it can be proven with documentation that the instrumentals on OMC were recorded by a band other than the BBs, I'd be happy to suggest a revision, when the book is reprinted. Anyone who has read the book would probably understand that neither Domenic nor myself wish to attribute anything the BBs didn't record to them. Quite the contrary, the book praises all manner of artists and bands, regardless of their celebrity status. I could care less if a band is famous or not. The music is what counts. Always.

All my best to David, and thanks again to you guys for letting us use the picture of Dave and the BBs in their Pendleton shirts in the book!

Brian

On the other hand, I was there when Jon and David were meticulously analyzing OMC - and there was certain things about watching that movie that spurred some very specific memories - for example, hearing the sound track reminded him that he and Carl wrote an instrumental together that was never recorded but was performed live many times called Blue City.[/quote]

By the way, another very cool tidbit. I wish one of those live versions would pop up someday.

One thing I will add about the R&B instrumentals in OMC... it is pretty obvious that rock and R&B instrumentals were pervasive in the surf scene. I wouldn't want to diminish David's take on his guitar sound. If he feels that that was not his guitar playing, then that is equally persuasive evidence as Dale Smallin's absolute certification that he recorded the BBs for the soundtrack.

Regardless, the point of said paragraph in "Pop Surf Culture" was to point out R&B tracks like "Honky Tonk" by Bill Doggett and other such cuts that were recorded by surf bands. Chapter 16, in which OMC is discussed, is all about the stock surf music examples that came FROM Southern California and hit nationwide in 1963. The previous five chapters were all about the SoCal bands, singles and nightclubs that took off locally. Chapter 16 is about the national explosion of surf music, and how the Beach Boys' 1963 sound was very much based in the nightclub scene of L.A. Of course, chapter 17 is where we see it go international. 1964. There was a definite story-arc there, and even if the BBs didn't record the OMC soundtrack, the notion that R&B instrumentals permeated the surf music scene stands true.

Quote from: MBE on March 25, 2009, 04:31:24 PM

Thanks for your responce and again I am sorry that I rushed to judgment before knowing the facts.

No problem MBE. I don't mind being challenged, provided the evidence against something I wrote is strong. I think John Stebbins or any other author that post here would agree that there are at least three tiers of fact checking that come up:

[1] Contractual information, or some physical paperwork with dates and times... a time-stamped tapebox... a photo contact sheet with a time-stamp... an advertisement... these are usually the most solid form of fact checking that an author or researcher can have. That being said, the contractual paperwork can have its problems as well. Specifically in the world of music, a contract for a concert doesn't necessitate that the show ever took place. Artists have cancellations for a variety of reasons. Sessions too. But contracts and tape boxes and that type of paperwork, I would consider first tier.

[2] Next tier would be an article or interview from the actual time when the event or action took place. Again, we know the problems here. The journalist may have given their opinion on something that was said or heard, which could have changed or been mis-reported on. In the instance of music, of course, artists say all kinds of things that never come to pass.

[3] The next tier would be an interview with the artist or someone who was present at the time of the event, recorded years after the event took place. These are important, but of course #1 and/or 2 are preferred. When #1, 2 and 3 all seem to line up, with little to no discrepancy, you have what one would call a "solid fact." That's rare. But we do the best we can to present things that generally fit with the story, and at some point, claims in fact have to be made. But almost anything and everything is disputable.

Brian I am a writer myself and I see we agree completely on how to gather info. Yet it's funny how many writers (none here) don't follow those simple steps.

The most frustrating thing I see writers do is copy info from other sources without making sure it is correct thus not following the three rules you laid out. In the Beach Boys case the thing that gets me mad is how many people lift stuff from "Brian's" autobiography. With all the info out there refuting it, it shouldn't be used as a source at all except in the rare instance a story or quote can be confirmed someplace or by someone else. The driving to the beach "Till I Die" story may be poetic, but it never appeared before then. Still I have seen three or four other books and articles use it as stone hard fact, Badman even quotes and says falsely that it was a press release. The Inside the Music of Brian Wilson book also borrows liberally from Todd Gold, and while of course there is nothing salacious used I just hate to see the Beach Boys work misrepresented.

Again I want to thank you for clarifying things for all of us here, and I hope we do find out more about One Man's Challenge one day. If I ever come across something I will be certain to pass it on.

You know, I don't keep up with all of the Beach Boys books, though I have a pretty big library myself. I had no idea ANYONE was still using Brian's discredited autobiography as a primary source.

I must have had a pretty good journalism 101 teacher, as those simple rules always did me well. You'd be surprised how many people go on 3rd tier quotes alone for their facts. With OMC, the early version of "Surf Jam" in the film seems to lend credence to those later statements delivered to Domenic... essentially a set of #3's -- years-after confirmation quotes from Dale Smallin and David Marks. Now that David has denied his involvement, and claimed that he was not sober enough to be trusted in the '80s... it's sorta back to the drawing board. And, again, hopefully some more information will emerge.

What do you write about? I'd love to read anything you've published, in print or online.

Brian

Well I have written text in seven books. Five on Elvis Presley, one on the Beatles and one on the Three Stooges. Recently I did the liners for an Elvis dvd and also wrote the info used to introduce the various clips. This is a review of the latest book
http://www.elvisnews.com/Presentation/Functional/Page/shop.aspx?command=show&item=1379
As I mentioned here before I am doing a song by song look at the Beach Boys original LP's and 45's. It's a different format then Andrew's work with a lot of new interviews and a certain degree of biography as far as what went into making each album. I am trying to not only view them from today's standpopint but also try to access how they were viewed in their time. As a big vinyl fan I also include quite a bit of info as to what has been released in that format over the last twenty years. I have been working on it on and off for many years, but am about sixty percent done with the final draft. It would have been done sooner, but I do a lot of freelance work for JAT Publishing in Chicago so my attention gets diverted away from it sometimes. Everyone here really has been a real encouragement. Domenic read a very early draft and was pretty encouraging too. I think my main goal with it is to give every Beach Boys his due. I try to present a balance giving all sides a voice. In saying that I also am not afraid to offer strong criticism on many of their post Endless Summer decisions. All in all I hope it will offer some new views and bring some previously unknown facts to light. Feel free to email me anytime if you want to know more and I can send you a sample of something I did. edermike@msn.com

Brian,

One thing about David's memory that I think Jon and Andrew would both agree with, is that he has a remarkable memory for situations - but terrible recall of chronology...he will remember a specific note he missed on Our Car Club, but he'd tell you it was recorded in 1964. In this case, he remembers them recording "our parts" for OMC, but whether that was Surfin' Safari and Surf Jam, or whether it was just Surfin' Safari is not something he would necessarily recall. However, he does know they didn't record any covers...just their own material.

Its entirely possible that they did record Surf Jam and Surfin' Safari...and Dale Smallin remembers them being in the studio recording and now, all these years later, associates that with a few extra songs that they really didn't do. And if Dominic asked David a question about it 20 years ago, I'm sure this is what David heard:

"Did you record.....One Man's Challenge?.....No, not the one with the sailor suits, the one with the Pendeltons" And then he quickly says yes, knowing they did record for it, and without any idea Dominic was even talking about something other than what they lip synced to. Point is, its probably somewhere in between rather than an either-or situation.

If David ever has a chance to watch that video again he could probably listen specifically to the part with Surf Jam and see if its him and Carl. He may have closed his mind to it being them at a certain point and just missed it the first time around?

I have a hard time thinking of Surf Jam as a specific composition. Its just a standard rock and roll progression that anyone who learned to play the guitar and listened to Little Richard/Chuck Berry/Bo Diddley/Buddy Holly etc.. would automatically know. The only thing that really differentiates the song is that it is all done to a surf style beat...so the feel is very California, very Dennis Wilson in fact. On the SUSA LP version it sounds like Carl does the Duane Eddy/Dick Dale dow dow dow thing with the low notes...and David starts it off by picking out single notes of a typical early rock scale then he switches to the chord progression that a zillion rock songs follow, while Carl solos to that. That's a surf jam for sure, but does it warrant calling it a composition, and one that can be identified as original? Its as original as a Blues Jam...where the originality is in the improvisation and not the structure.

While Surfin Safari in the film OMC really sounds like the BB's(even if my eyes were closed and no one was singing) the guitar tones are typical Carl/Dave and the feel of Brian and Dennis' rhythm is quintessential BB's. I didn't get that specific vibe from anything else in the OMC soundtrack. But if Dave was to hear something that he thought could be he and Carl on there that would be cool and that's why i took the time to go through it with him. Although I didn't expect it... I was actually hoping maybe we'd find a snippet of BB's in there...but truthfully nothing hit the mark...no pun intended. As I recall we both felt the tones and feels didn't match the BB's '62 sound. Maybe Dave will have a different opinion next time, but the one he had on that night in 2005 when we listened together was that nothing on there was the BB's other than Surfin Safari.

Thanks guys. This is all compelling information. Unfortunately, without paperwork OR Dale Smallin alive today, many of these questions about OMC may be left to speculation.

Again, I'm not committed to defending either side. Whatever information comes forward, I will embrace as getting us closer to the truth.

Like I said before, the point of using OMC as an example in the book was always to point out the influence of R&B and rock instrumentals on the nascent surf scene of 1961-62. And so, whether the whole soundtrack was Beachboys, Genteels or Raindrops... or if it was somewhere in between... the point of the sentences in that chapter still make sense, even as hard and fast facts remain somewhat elusive.

And I say this with all due respect to Dave Marks, the late Dale Smallin and the listening/logical skills that many have employed here, myself included. After a decade and a half of beating my head against a wall trying to figure Smile out, who would have thought OMC would be so difficult?

Quote from: MBE on March 26, 2009, 09:31:14 PM

That Elvis Concerts book looks awesome. I just got done re-reading Jerry Hopkins' "Elvis in Hawaii." Nice to hear of another Elvis fan in Beach Boys world. Let me know if I can help in any way with your BBs book. It sounds like a great project. I have a huge pile of collectibles on my desk that I keep forgetting to photocopy for Ian Rustin, but it all eventually goes out...

The Smiley Smile Message Board

Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Ian on November 02, 2008, 09:22:48 AM