The Smiley Smile Message Board

After Carl was the driving force behind Sunflower, Surf's Up, So Tough and Holland (1973), what happened?  He was producing, playing, and writing songs - and then suddenly nothing until the L.A. album.  No songs, no artistic direction (which was granted by group decision to Brian with 15 Big Ones), yeah he played on Love You and sang on 15 Big Ones and Love You, but he went from artistic director to invisible!

I remember when 15 Big Ones came out both Dennis and Carl spoke bitterly about how they were artists and they were being ignored and pushed to bystander roles.  But Dennis was working on solo stuff, he had reason to be frustrated - he thought 15 Big Ones was going to be a double album, one of covers and one of originals, where he could find a place to put the songs that were nearly or completely finished at this time and that predated the Pacific Ocean blue project - Thoughts of You, River song, and Rainbows.  What did Carl have to feel frustrated about?  Interesting that Mike Love got a song onto 15 Big Ones but neither Dennis or Carl did.  Carl sounds like he was drugged out/drunk on some of the Love You/Adult Child stuff - was this when he got into substance abuse bigtime?

Yes.

While there is evidence of alcohol + drugs.. I dont think that was the only reason..In this same time period Carl had serious back problems..It has been reported he would go to studio in wheelchair..what started this problem??..No idea.. But its hardly ever mentioned...If he was in that much pain you know there was pain killers involved plus add alcohol to the mix....And anything else...While Carl may have had some problems in these times ..And if you lived in this time period..Its hardly a surprise...kudos"s  To carl for comin back stronger than before..GOD bless Carl Wilson

Drugs, back pain and a crumbling marriage, too, right?

I've read bits and pieces about Carl's contributions to the completion of Love You. While Love You is "so Brian", I believe Carl had a lot to do with finishing some of the songs, adding parts here and there, especially guitar parts. As rough as Love You turned out, I wonder what it would've sounded like without Carl's work? I don't know what a "mixdown producer" is, but Carl got credited for that on Love You.

Great point Sherrif. I always assumed mixdown producer meant that he simply mixed the album. But usually it would just say 'mixed by', nothing about producer. Carl probably did make a lot of decisions that BW was either unwilling or unable to make during the final mixdown. But beyond that possibility Carl  never really created any interesting music ever again after Holland. Did he decide to just coast with the 'formula' faction of the band?

I'm trying to think if we ever came across anything during the making of the Carl Wilson Foundation documentary in 2003. Admittedly, we did not scour the Brother vaults or anything. There was one disc of mixdowns made during filming, which was pretty standard stuff, maybe an isolated vocal part here or there, but nothing new. Just stuff to use behind talking heads or in-between scenes.

Alan Boyd and myself went over every possible piece of musc that we wanted to include in the film, and I don't believe anything ever came up about Carl from 1975-78. I could be wrong. Again, because we spent all of two hours in the vault before filming, the only thing we MIGHT have gone on would have been Alan's notes of what existed. But it wasn't enough to warrant us putting anything from that era in the film itself.

There was a great, great song that Carl wrote in 1980 that we almost used, but now I can't even remember the title.

It's interesting because I have the Billy Hinsche version of "Honkin'" which was evidently done without Carl's mixdown. And it's not too terribly different: the piano is much higher in the mix, there's a synth solo that's not on the released version. The difference is that it's not "spread out" at all, it's stereo but barely. Probably because Brian doesn't have much experience in stereo mixing. Also, Billy's vocal is very cool--he does different, but cool, phrasing that Al doesn't. PM me if you'd like a copy Sheriff... :police:

"Where We Are?"

Doesn't ring a bell.

Alan was in the employ of Brother, so he handled all the music stuff. I mean, we talked about what songs we wanted for the documentary beforehand, and we went over the notes he had in his laptop, and then we went to the vault, and I'll tell you, Alan had those master tapes pulled before I had time to tie my shoes. it was a whirlwind. I mean, I'm exaggerating... we were there for a few hours. But he knew the vaults so well, it wasn't like I was going to find all kinds of stuff. I felt like a kid in a candy store, albeit with a budget and a job to do that was calling us elsewhere.

Maybe Alan can chime in. I honestly don't remember the song name.

Thanks, TdHabib, but I have that copy of "Honkin" with Billy Hinsche on lead. You know, that take is interesting for a couple of reasons. First, in late 1976, the individual Beach Boys were becoming fairly recognizeable because of TV shows/specials, magazine covers/articles, the success of 15 Big Ones, and the sold out concerts. So, instead of featuring the five Beach Boys exclusively, somebody (Brian? Carl?), says, "Hey, let's have Billy Hinsche, from the backing band, sing the lead on one of the best songs on the new album. Kind of like a quasi-"Sail On Sailor" move. Second, who was elected to tell Billy that his vocal is being bumped in favor of Al's? His soon-to-be ex-brother-in-law Carl?

I haven't listened to that Billy H. sung version for awhile; I have it on an old Maxell cassette somewhere. But, as I recall, there were a couple of other songs on that tape, "Roller Skating Child" and "The Night Was So Young" I believe, and they were unfinished. And, as I also recall, it was a guitar part that was missing. Which might lend more weight to Carl's contribution theory on Love You.

This documentary Of  Carl Wilson..?/ I have never heard of it or seen it..When did it come out..??

There's a instrumental run-through of "Angel Come Home" in a bootleg, I think. Very rough. What year was that from?

Angel was from 1976. Brian mentions that Carl hurt his back in an early 1976 interview. I think it was from lifting a TV or refrigerator.

How much guitar is actually on Love You? I haven't listened closely in a while, but I seem to recall somewhere in the liner notes that TNWSS was the only song to feature guitar. Of course that could be erroneous.

Carl Wilson documentary? I also hadn't heard of it. Is it available somewhere?

There's quite some prominent guitar playing in Roller Skating Child.

It was a film made to run before the 1993 CWF Benefit Concert at Royce Hall. That's the only time it was shown, to my knowledge.

If he hurt his back in 76, that could explain the slide into use of prescription drugs/nonprescription drugs/alcohol, along with his marital problems.  But no songwriting (other than apparently Angel come Home)?  After Holland in 1973, I know there was extensive touring in 74, but one song in four years?  Or were subsequent songs on L.A. and Keeping the Summer alive recycled from earlier, as was Brian's modus operandi?

I was thinking how River Song would have been great on 15 Big Ones and would have created a mini "gospel" theme with That Same Song.

I'm sure he wrote tons of other songs. On a live bootleg from around the Surf's Up era, Mike says that even though Long Promised Road was Carl's first song that the Beach Boys recorded (I guess he doesn't consider Surf Jam a song), Carl had already written tons of songs up to that point. I have no reason to doubt that Carl wrote more than one song in a three/four year period. That doesn't mean he ever recorded them, though.

There was a session for "Angel Come Home" in September 1975 (logged as "Carl's Song", long held to be a DW session).

Although there are similarities between "Carl's Song" and "Angel Come Home", they really aren't the same song IMO.  I'd say "Angel" grew out of "Carl's Song" musically, but "Carl's Song" is pretty uptempo in comparison.  And "Carl's Song" has no melody or vocals, just guitars/bass/drums.  Personally I like it a lot, and wish it had been given lyrics and vocals and released in '75 or '76.

Try singing the verse of "ACH" over "Carl's Song" - fits like a glove.  :)

Re: What was Carl up to 1975-1978?

would his work with Chicago ("Baby What a Big Surprise")
rank in this area?

I don'y know how much of that was wrote by Carl..but I thought that his contributions to that were large ( but uncredited)

His contribution was a backing vocal - that's all. Written by Peter Cetera.

I understand that the backing vocal credit was all that was given... however, I had read before that his contribution the song was considerable.. and surprising to the rest of Chicago....

mind you that article was many years ago ( maybe even a kasey kasem top 40 snigglet)
so i'm no expert... I differ to you AGD... you would have a better idea...

It was a film made to run before the 1993 CWF Benefit Concert at Royce Hall. That's the only time it was shown, to my knowledge.

It was made in 2003, not 1993, and was show then too.

I think Betty Colligan showed it at one of the Beach Boys festivals a few years ago too.

"I think Betty Colligan showed it at one of the Beach Boys festivals a few years ago too."

You're correct, Brian.  This was shown at what I think was called "Hodad-Fest" in Livonia, MI (Detroit area) over Memorial Day weekend in 2006.  It is a very touching, poignant film and certainly deserves to be seen by a wider Beach Boys' audience.  A job well done.