The Smiley Smile Message Board

Hi all,
hope you enjoyed the TLOS video on the main website...its lookin good I think, especially as I was a little worried at one point by the rumours surrounding Jimmy and Bob's departure and the lack of SS&S.


What also worried me was the following quote from AGD:
"This is all I'll say: I was anticipating the studio version of TLOS with uncommon impatience. Not so much any more. I think... to expect another BWPS could now be unrealistic."

Andrew what precisely did you mean by that and has your opinion been changed at all by recent devopments?

And what do others think?

Seeking your well-informed views and looking forward to the RAH
Sam

Well, my main concern on that thread -- and after hearing AGD's dour premonitions -- was that the material had been compromised in some way and that some outside producer had been brought in.

Neither of those things have happened -- and the performances sound pretty good. So I'm personally feeling more optimistic. Not sure how I feel about strings in MAD. But I'll wait for the album.

Personally speaking, here is how my sentiments regarding TLOS unfolded.

The live shows got me really excited for new, fully realized (as much as one at Brian's age can be) music from BW...the studio demos that I may or may not have heard got me slightly less excited due to midi/synth times, and then the re-signing at Capitol, recording in Studio A and the new video on bw.com has got me all worked up again! Hopefully all this POB hype, and the wave of critical success Brian has had since BWPS will boost the album's sales, etc... and he will tour North America with TLOS. Even a smaller tour than BWPS would be cool

Well I think the whole idea it is not going to be another smile (heck even one of the band members said that, in public view of everyone!) I think they (Brian's camp) are looking at this more as an album, then say a 37 year old masterpiece which Smile was.

I have tried not to listen to the live shows or demos because I want to hear the actual product and then compare and contrast another time. Regardless I think, Brian always has a trick up his sleeve for the followers of his music.

TLOS is commercially stillborn, just like everything the man did solo that wasn't BWPS (and as much as the "Meleaf" brigade would love to deny it, it was the BEACH BOYS mystique that made Smile so appealing). The Brian camp is one laughable charade after another. It's not all peaches and cream, heavenly wine and roses and all. I can imagine they're quite literally shitting bricks with fear that this one is just going to crash and burn.

But I'm just an old fogey who tires of the whole blueboard "OMG BRIAN HAS A NEW ALBUM!!!!!111" mentality that inevitably spills across forums. Because we'll be all happy that there's a new album, we'll hear all the interviews, read all the press, but when it comes out we all say "Brian's FINISHED! He's a walking vegetable and hasn't done anything of merit since the sixties."

It's a vicious cycle. Christ, people even found ways to bash BWPS, you know, THE BEST ALBUM EVER. "SAMPLED harpsichords?!?! This is NOT Brian Wilson's trademark..."

I don't hate Brian by any means, but I do feel bad for him. This album will, inevitably, be ripped apart by even his most hardcore of fans. But Brian's resigned himself to this. It's not even sad, it's pathetic. The man deserves better than what he gets from his fans who just love ripping his efforts apart on here when he's at the age where he doesn't even have to prove anything. I'm not a huge fan of TLOS (it does feel a bit Orange Crate Art-ish, the whole "glory to California" thing), but I support the Beach Boys (not just Brian) and all the music, collectively or solo, as much as anyone does now. I'm hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Of course I want to be proven wrong. I'd love to see this one be received well by the fans, maybe not as a CLASSIC LP that we'll still talk about 50 years later, but as a good Brian Wilson LP.

So when everyone buys TLOS, take it as one more gift from probably the most creative musician alive today.

I don't know what it is, but TLOS is Brian's first solo work (beside Smile) I want to hear again and again. All the different parts, styles, feels, creative facettes, jokes, vocals layers and of course the whole concept make it an interesting adventure, although not every song is outstanding compared to the BB's best work of course. But there is not one song I can't stand and there are new classics like "Midnight" (for me the best song of Brian's solo career) and also "Good Kind Of Love", which is IMO the most commercial-sounding or radio-friendly BW solo pop song. Single A candidate. And these are not first impression thoughts, since I  regularely listen to TLOS since last September. One of the best albums Brian and the BB ever did, if the recordings won't sound very different to the live performances.

Lord, Jason.

I take Jason's point -  there are some fans, well-regarded fans at that, who seem to be waiting simply to pounce on anything Brian turns out, then crit it to bits. If he records anything new it's "ah, but this isn't classic Brian"; if he re-records and oldie it's "ah, but the original was the best" (even when that original's still in a vault gathering mould). If he recorded an album of belching they'd be the first to state that "oh, his belches in '66 were pure genius but you can hear Scotty double-tracking his belches on this".

What I've heard of TLOS thus far leaves me of the opinion that it's his best new work probably since Rio Grande, but I've loved so much of his output over the past two decades.

But as for TLOS being stillborn? I hope not. I hope to God not. It deserves to sell, as POB has sold third time around.  A gift indeed.

There's one big difference here... people have heard a lot of the album material on the promo video, and most are still positive about it. I think one person said something like, "Not sure how I feel about the sound of the strings." Well, you know, I hope people can kind of let it wash over them for awhile and let their feelings run free, as that is how Brian's music was meant to be heard. The more cerebral picking apart of the nitty gritty... okay, that's fair, but maybe it kind of muddies the initial experience. I mean, when I look at a painting, I step back and take it in and stop thinking. That's what art is for.

As far as sales go, we all know that most 66-year-old artists don't sell well. I doubt that it's going to bound up to the top of the charts, but that's really no reflection on the quality of the thing, is it? Poor Brian bases a lot of self-worth on album sales, since that's how he learned to evaluate his self-worth from an early age. That doesn't mean we can't evaluate the album independent of what the general public thinks.

I think it's a great risk for him to put this out, when he could just coast. It's a highly creative, intricate endeavor. That it was approached as a song cycle commissioned by a concert hall... and that he had the band committed to getting it finished for presentation... well, for a vegetable of a man (as some would have it), that's a big task. Brian has his band and his wife, and they do great in keeping him going. But as "dumb" as he can act sometimes, there's a man behind there with drive. He knows what he's doing.

I'm sure there are those of us that would like it to be more avant-garde than it is going to be. But I already get the feeling of excitement just knowing that I can put another song cycle of Brian Wilson's on my shelf. He really flourishes in that cut and paste style, like Smile, "Can't Wait Too Long," "Cool Cool Water," the Fairy Tale and "Rio Grande." Even the hokiest numbers on TLOS are going to be part of Wilson's mythology, and I don't mind them in the least. Part of his charm is the unabashed optimism that is lost in the post-Kennedy era. Brian can be dark, lyrically, and playful, and even weird. But he also has that optimistic side that some claim as the man being pushed into commerciality. I see it almost post-modern at this point. It's a reflection on a myth he helped to create.

I believe it's gonna be great. Like Hoagy Carmichael's "Johnny Appleseed Suite"... a grand statement from an elder statesman.

I was gonna post something but its allready been said...!!..A Grand statement from a elder statesman...I cant add anymore than that..Poetic + Real + well said...!!!

Hear, hear.

Actually, I think most of Brian's solo work, with the exception of GIOMH and the Pet Sounds Live CD, has been ultimately well received by fans. There's a lot of griping, sure, but appreciation usually wins out.

Another thoughtful and honest post!  I completely agree. 

With POB/Bambu and TLOS coming out, Al's solo CD coming soon, and Mike and Bruce on the road as always, this is shaping up to be a nice summer for Beach Boys fans of all stripes.

I don't think there's much of any risk at all. He's a guy with nothing to lose, having been basically nothing but a commercial failure in terms of albums for 30 years or so, and whose critical response has been mixed. With this one, we all already know what's on it. Plenty of people will bitch no matter what; others will praise any fart Brian passes. It will be mostly unnoticed other than in the Mojo magazine set. The music itself is pretty close to irrelevant, actually: the same thing would happen around it. And as for his reputation, it's set in stone and nearly unchangeable. We've been getting almost the same stories and interviews since I became a fan a decade ago, with the major difference being that Smile went from being unreleaseable to being released. No, I don't think it's a risk. That's the best thing: he can pretty well do whatever he damn well pleases (at least in theory).

I meant a risk, in that, last time he tried to do a whole song cycle album, it ended up being a 37 year debacle.

This time around, it's elaborate, and he's also considered a near-human vegetable. That sounds like a risk to me... in terms of completing it. But since Melinda has been in his life, he's very dependable, and I think finishing "Smile," then coming up with another LP-length song cycle... it says a lot about him not only NOT being a vegetable, but also being quite competent.

I thought you meant releasing the album, which considering the work has already been completed and performed to generally very good reviews, I couldn't see any risk. But now that I see you meant taking it up in the first place, yes, I agree with that. He'd have had a lot of egg on his face had he had to cancel the shows.

Yeah, I mean, I think this one has been managed so perfectly, it's hardly any risk at all, unless nitpicking is going to bother Brian so bad that it would damage his psyche. But I don't see that happening. It's all been coordinated in a way that never could have happened in 1967. It was all on Brian's shoulders then, and dealing with the clash of egos in the band, plus Murry, plus the introduction of his new friends. it was a grand attempt to make an artistic organization. But it was too good to be true.

Anyway, if some said the words "Brian Wilson," "dependable" and "song suite" ten years ago, no one would have believed it. Even if he doesn't blow lids, like "Pet Sounds" or "Smile," he's come a long way. It could be average, but it's not. I think it sounds great, even if it doesn't shatter the earth.

That is the sad thing for Brian Wilson, and the hard thing sometimes for me in being a fan. When he does something that sounds good, people complain incessantly about what it's not. Nobody in any art form, I would venture to guess, has ever done 100% brilliant, earth-shattering work. No one. I say take the great ones and run, and if you can add to it with some good stuff, great. That's how I see TLOS. It's good, and I enjoy it more than any of his real solo work (BWPS being obviously mostly not solo--or at least of the solo era--work). I don't think it's groundbreaking. I don't think it's genius. But I think it's really nice. I like it. That isn't something to insult Wilson about. It's something to say "thanks, here's my $25 for the CD/DVD set."

Exactly. There DO seem to be some sections of TLOS that are on par with "Melt Away," "Love and Mercy," "Rio Grande," "Getting in Over My Head," "Marketplace" and "Soul Searchin'."

Luther: That is a nearly perfect point. Brian hasn't made groundbreaking music, per se, since the 70s. Instead, he remains a master craftsman, a composer and singer (at least in the studio) of great talent and skill. All I've heard of TLOS so far confirms that.

Wonderful post Luther, agree wholeheartedly.

One question: Is it even possible in 2008 to come up with a groundbreaking album like Smile would have been? Or did 50% of Brian's genius profit from the fact that they were first and still had the whole Pop Music landscape to discover and could easily do things nobody did before? What if TLOS would have been the follow-up to Pet Sounds?

Maybe not genius, but very, very clever.  And very, very, very good.

Sure, it's possible, but it's by definition going to be something we can't predict. And I'd guess it won't come from the likes of a Wilson, Dylan or McCartney, but a young person. And fans of those older school artists--many of us around here--may well not enjoy or appreciate that genius. We'll call it noise and wish for the good ol' days...

Do you think what we have heard of TLOS is in the same league as 60's Brian?

While it may quite obviously not be in the same leaugue as 60s Brian, to me it's actually not too far away from 70s Brian (think Surf's Up, Mt. Vernon, Love You, and the more enjoyable M.I.U. stuff).

Midnight's Another Day- yes.  IMO, it's the best song he's written since Good Vibrations. 

One of his most impressive performances since, oh, the sixties, no question. I'd like to know for sure how much of it he wrote before I'll say it's one of his best compositions.

Groundbreaking musical innovation like Smile and Revolver/Pepper is the province of youth - most artists, whether composers or painters, have their most revolutionary ideas take form early on in their career.  As they age their work usually is a refinement of what came before, rather than taking dramatic steps in an entirely different directions.  The few exceptions (Picasso comes to mind) prove the rule.

So no, TLOS is no Smile or Pet Sounds or even a Friends IMO.  It doesn't mean Brian can't write an exceptional song like Midnight's Another Day that could rank among his best, but the avant garde elements and need to do something that was going to "scare people" that so drove Brian in the 60's have definitely been left behind.