The Smiley Smile Message Board

There is a new video promoting TLOS at brianwilson.com

 :o :o :o

Make it September 2nd now!

Love the cover art also.

Nice video, can't wait to hear the final product!

Is Paul still with the band/on the album? or did he leave too? Did they just get that woodwind player shown for that one-off gig at Capitol?

The album sounds very promising.  Was that the cover art at the end of the video?

Whoa, this sounds amazing, especially "Midnight"!

I couldn't see the first video, now I can't see this one... I tried Firefox and IE, updating QuickTime... Nothing.

Would someone be kind enough to rip it and convert it to another format?  :-D

Yes, it's a good 'un - seems like there is a proper string section as well. I know the power of editing, but he seems to be enjoying himself. As long as they've cleaned up a couple of the more cluttered tracks, this'll be his best album in a long time. And then if Capital promote it the same way the POB has been promoted (well-targeted web ads, for example) - it should do pretty well.

In firefox, go to Tools --> Content and try enabling JAVA and Javascript. If that doesn't work, drop me a PM and I'll rip the videos.

Brian is in great voice and the production and harmonies sound great.   Glad to see he is putting out a (mostly) full fledged new album.  Thanks to all involved!!

However, these (new) melodies just don't sound like BW written material to me.  I think he has been with the Wondermints too long and that it is time for him to go back to some folks he has worked with before or at least try an new collaborator altogether.  A BB/VDP  collaboration I am sure would have marvelous results and I believe all parties are ready for it.  These TSOL songs are nice but they just don't sound like Brian's work - even the backing harmonies are relatively pedestrian compared to the rest of the Wilson catalouge.  Maybe BW is getting older/more mature or maybe someone thought it better not to mention someone else was at the helm for a majority of this work.  I'm thinking the latter.

Other than that, we will be purchasing TSOL on vinyl.  Looking forward to a full listen, maybe that will change my mind.  Until then, I am going to put in Orange Crate Art - BW's previous 'Ode to California' album.

God, what a great promo. Very touching, and BW is in very good voice indeed. Kudos to Scott Bennett for getting all of this out of Brian. IMHO, this is pure Brian/though Scott certainly helped that.

Agreed that it sounds great. As for this not being all Brian, you think Scott is not being truthful when he says that Brian came in with fully realized melodies? I think they sound very Brian-esque, and the harmonies, particularly on Midnight's Another Day, are great. On MAD, they're positively haunting.

I think most of the sound seems to be from the live-in-studio performance(s), but especially that "Southern California" part from the beginning may be studio. (I didn't like that extra vocal at the very end of that clip, by the way.) Whoever had most of the original ideas, whoever wrote the most of it, whoever added which parts, I'm not too concerned about because I like it. Just like it doesn't really affect my listening experience whether Mike or Brian wrote "get around round round, I get around," who named Pet Sounds (and why) or whether VDP wrote some music from Smile or just present for its creation, those are songs and albums I like. I have heard TLOS and I like it. The things I most didn't like about the versions I've heard were Brian's pitch problems, which I optimistically assume won't be a part of the album release. Granted, I can pessimistically worry about newly introduced production touches that I won't like. Either way, whatever. Scott wrote it. Brian wrote it. (Hell, I wrote it, I remember the day well, I was playing "Shortenin Bread" for 71 hours straight and suddenly there was this burst of creativity.) I'm pretty happy it's on the way.

Very thoughtful and honest post, NightHider...

I agree wholeheartedly Luther.

Cool. If I can add to the statement, I'd add that I understand the desire for it to be 100% Brian. That helps the story of Brian, the legend, etc. But I don't want to base my impression of the music on the person whose name is on it (or, if cynics are to be followed, whose isn't). That's a story. That's the accompanying narrative. The sound of the music is to me what is most interesting. I like the sound of the music.

Psst...these newbies are not written by Brian! Can't you tell it's old Mike Love stuff? God, I feel a bit sad for ol ' Brian-people presume he didn't even compose his own material-what a shame. ::)

 I guess a lot of that can be attributed to the Paley / Wilson collaborations. Fans have speculated how much input Brian had on some of those also. Has Andy Paley ever spoken on the record about that? Or is he silent out of respect for Brian or fear of contractual legal repurcusions?

Paley's spoken about it in drips in drabs to avoid legal stuff, presumably; what I've heard is surprising: Paley wrote "Slightly American Music" entirely, but he also stated that Brian wrote the bulk of the lyrics (in addition to some of the melody) of "Gettin' In Over My Head," and while Paley wrote a lot of "Soul Searchin'," Brian got so excited about it he went to England (where Paley was working on something else) to work on it with Paley; also "Saturday Morning in the City" and "Chain Reaction of Love," (if I'm not mistaken) had their origins back in the late 60s through the mid 70s; as well as that Mike Love wanted desperately to re-write the lyrics for "Chain Reaction of Love."

Anyway, back to TLOS-A Narrative

Any info on the studio session footage in the new video? Are those real or 'fake' like the ones on BWPS dvd?

Speculation is natural. For what it's worth, I believe Brian co-wrote all of the TLOS material with the exception of "Southern California" -- the song that begins the new video. That's written and performed on the demo exclusively by Scotty Bennett.

I've also heard that Scotty helped BW rework MAD from a rocker to its current ballad form. "California Role" has its origins in a Landy-era tune. And "Mornin' Beat" has some similarities to "Walkin'" an unreleased track from the late 60s.

I don't see why it would be fake. It just shows Brian sitting there, sometimes talking, sometimes signing, and sometimes playing keyboards, which is probably what he did. I don't think the band would have recorded and then gone in and pretended to do what they already did for the benefit of the cameras. Or if they did, who cares-- what they're showing really happened.

Umm...you are aware that Brian didn't write any of the songs on Orange Crate Art, right?

The songs sounded great to me. A lot of these pieces have already been confirmed as being songs from Brian's unreleased past. If Scott Bennett helped augment the process and bring about something cool, who gives a crap?

My only complaint, thus far, from what I've heard, is that the drums are a bit bombastic. Brian doesn't have to stay stuck in the '60s, but even his drums or Moog taps from the '70s have that unique Brian stamp. Even the 1988 album has a unique Brian drum sound. TLOS... from the video clip... doesn't have anything other than "average" drumming, to my ears. But that would be a minor complaint on my part. By and large, it sounded killer, and I can't wait for it to come out.

Really cool clip.....much more excited for the album now!

And cool cover art to boot

Can't say I'm a big fan of the cover art.

But I can say i'm very excited and happy for Brian.

Agreed 100%.

can't wait to read the linear notes by david leaf ::)

I'm very happy for Brian and will gladly buy the album as the songs sound wonderful.  I'm probably in the minority here though, but quite frankly I'm still more excited about POB/Bambu than TLOS.  Can't really post that on the Blueboard without getting crucified by the Brianistas but that's the way I feel. 

Actually you're probably in the majority with that sentiment. As a non-Dennis fan, I've been feeling mighty lonely this spring/summer.

I believe the sentiment on the Blueboard is one of fairly equal enthusiasm for both albums. Possibly the excitement is more skewed toward Brian because it's Brian's board, but with the exception of a couple of people, most people are giving POB high praise. Now, if Mike Love's album ever comes out...

Mike Love mugs and pencils all around  ;D

I hate Brian's website. The videos never work on my computer.

My camp is a particular one, I'm a fan of both Dennis and Brian; but I'm more excited about TLOS because Brian's a A+ composer in my mind, and Dennis is an A- composer.

Lots of camera time with Brian and Scott and not much of anyone else... wonder how they all feel about that?

I'm excited and I can't wait for this too, but I do agree with some of you it does sound a little... too processed? And for person blaming the Wondermints for all of this needs to shut their trap. Without them we would not have gotten a lot of things (for example... do we all remember SMiLE or is that becoming a distant memory for some of you?? Funny how times change...) I don't think it is right to really blame anyone. At the end of the day, it is how Brian feels about the work. From the looks of it here, he definately seems interested.

Video footage can be edited or set up to achieve the desired result, notably in the case of the Imagination sessions.

Well, we know he was excited about TLOS at the time of the London premiere, according to Scott. We know he was excited about the prospect of recording it. So... I guess they just took snippets where he randomly looked happy and energetic? Whatever. From what I can hear, it came out sounding great, despite the change in personnel. I hope Brian is still excited about the material, because he has every right to be, backstage politics or no.

The argument you make is decent, but in my opinion slightly auto-tuning the vocals (which I'm not saying was done, but could've been done) is not that worse than adding echo chambers and doubling the vocals (which Brian has done for over 40 years). Also it is evident Brian can still sing very well in tune at concerts, at witnessed by the undubbed live TLOS tape I have.

And I too am sick of the polarising effect of message boards. BW.com gives you the positive, but I hate these boards (no disrepect to any specific posters) that have the immediate negative effect: BWPS-too many keyboards! auto-tuned singing! Darian participation! TLOS Promo faked vocals! faked studio scenes! Too much Scott participation!!! Enough already.

Well, besides Bob Dylan, name me one big artist from the '60s era that is doing anything interesting?

See, for me Brian peaks at an A+ and mostly hovers around the Bs, and Dennis peaks around a B, but mostly hovers in the C or C- range.

McCartney, Memory Almost Full was superb and a minor hit.

Well, he peaks at an A+ for me too, but what I am constantly amazed with Brian is his efficiency with melodies. I'd say 50% of his songs have average-below average-terrible lyrics, but only about 20 or so have melodies I genuinely dislike or that aren't catchy in some way. He's one of the greatest melodists of all time, even "Male Ego" and "I'm So Lonely," had memorable melodies and I've caught myself singing the hook to 'Smart Girls" once or twice. Few other songwriters have 95% memorable melodies.

That album was just another regular collection of Paul McCartney pop songs. About as interesting as an album by Boston during the time when "Never Mind the Bollocks" came out. "Memory Almost Full" doesn't even register in the greater McCartney pantheon.

I think what Brian has undertaken here is far more ambitious.

^Tom Waits is very nearly of that era, even though he wasn't known as early on. And he has done very interesting work pretty consistently. I'd argue more consistently than anyone else of that era, including Dylan.

Absolutely, but I'd hardly consider him a '60s artist, since his first album came out in 1973. He's closer to the punk era. Right around the same time as the New York Dolls and the Ramones.

Still, if the idea is longevity, it seems like nitpicking to say a guy whose career is now at 35 years is much different than one whose career is at 40, for example. And he is about the same age as those other "legends," if I'm not mistaken. (Even though he looks old enough to be their father.)

Waits is 60 at the end of next year, just FYI. I don't think he looks that old, compared to some rock stars. I definitely think that there are two sorts of classic rockers, ones who are considered never to have gone crap, and ones who have.

Waits, Young and, yes, Brian are in the former, and I think Endless Wire went a long way to putting Pete Townshend in that category (even though he yo-yos in and out of it)

The Stones and McCartney are definitely in the latter, although I didn't mind Memory Almost Full.

Yeah, that was a good one. McCartney never needed a comeback, he just keeps releasing mostly good albums without fanfarre. God bless him.

I highly disagree, Memory Almost Full was a heartfelt work, Macca talk about death on "End of the End," releases an out-and-out love song for Heather (whom I always disliked) with "See Your Sunshine" over a year after they parted company initially, writes a song for his daughter to dance to which is "Dance Tonight," talks about his past on "Ever Present Past" and writes a conceptual work about not know a person's mother (admittedly fictional) in the great "Only Mama Knows."

You can call McCartney a pop writer which he is; you can dislike him, I've hated several albums; and you can give MAF a negative review, I obviously didn't but this is America; but please don't call it standard. It's heartfelt, imperfect and Paul put a lot of hard work and ambition into it, and is most of all different, in my opinion anyway.

Sorry for the lecture, I meant no harm.

Put me in the enjoying Memory Almost Full category.  I would give it a slight edge over Chaos and Creation in the Backyard, but I really liked that one too.

I don't know if TLOS will do what those Macca albums did as far as sales though, unfortunately.  Last summer everytime I went to a bookstore or Starbucks they were playing Memory Almost Full so I highly doubt if Brian's camp can get that kind of guerrilla marketing going, but with the right marketing campaign I think it can do very well.

Well, it helps that McCartney is now signed to the Starbucks label. Talk about exposure. And I believe Barnes & Noble cafes are run by Starbucks.

No kidding! It's not like the Starbucks staff thought, 'hey, I like that McCartney album, let's play it!' Talk about a sweetheart deal for Macca.

Well, that's my point.  I think it is unrelastic to expect TLOS to sell like Memory Almost Full because BW has no access to that sort of exposure.

I think Capitol records counts as access to exposure. Whether they use their resources to get it is another thing altogether. But he absolutely does have access through them.

Hey, I relistened to MAF and it includes a mock-suite of songs. Who's lacking ambition?  ;)  If you took the best of Chaos, MAF and the B sides, you'd have a real kick-ass CD, maybe his best in the last 25 years.

Exactly, also one time I heard 1971 Surf's Up playing at a Starbucks.. as well as IJWMFTT

Maybe - but the point is that Macca didn't do that, which suggests a lessening in quality control.

Well, how often has McCartney written an entire album of good songs? During the Beatles, he obviously was responsible for half the material or less, so his best stuff was used. I don't know all of Paul's solo work, so I don't know the answer to my question. Lennon used to accuse McCartney of trying to coast on a bunch of half-rate material, and judging from Dance Tonight, he sometimes still does that. Then again, he's done some classical stuff, which is pretty ambitious of him (I haven't heard it.). I do think Brian is judged more harshly than Paul, partly because his solo stuff doesn't have mass appeal and is therefore judged only by the fans who tend to be music collectors.

I beleve that Macca's classical works are well regarded.

Another big 60's star (in the UK, anyway) still doing amazing stuff albeit very slowly is Scott Walker.

 

By whom? Pop fans and critics? Certainly not by classical critics.

The critics that I read (in the intelligent division of the UK press) generally gave it favourable reviews. Maybe you read/heard differently?
 

Most of what I've read is along the lines of "it's pretty, which isn't a surprise because of course Paul is great with melodies. nice enough." I've heard some of it, and that's my opinion, too. It sounds nice enough, but not "serious." I don't want to knock him or sound elitist here, but it's not really the work of a composer skilled in that type of music. My understanding is that he uses other people to arrange the works, sort of the way the Beatles did with George Martin decades ago. And to me, a huge part of composition in that type of music is arranging, understanding the instruments at your disposal, their ranges, their tonal colors, the general technical aspects of them to ensure you write appropriate parts (not impossible ones), etc. The music I've heard sounds more like "lite classical," music using traditional orchestral instruments but not necessarily for much more than easy listening. Again, I haven't heard all of it, so I don't pretend to know everything about his work. But those are the impressions I've had, and from those reviews and stories I've read: that generally, this "classical" music is more likely to impress pop fans than classical (I hate that word, actually, but it's the most understood one) audiences.

It's just unbelievable to me that there are people putting Brian Wilson in a category of old rock stars who have never gone crap en put McCartney and The rolling Stones in the one that got crappy. I mean, christ, are you out of your mind? :D Brian as a solo artist imo has never released an album anywhere near as good as mccartney's worst. All we have is BW '88 with great songs but the worst ever production, a record like Press To Play was for McCartney. But where for McCartney PTP was a low, it's Brian's best solo statement so far (excluding SMiLE). He doesn't have a McCartney, a RAM, A Band On The Run, a Venus & Mars, A Tug Of War, a Flaming Pie, a C&C or a MAF to show that he's a truly good and convincing solo artist.

I guess I skipped some of this thread--did anyone say Wilson never put out some crap? I highly doubt it. I think most everyone would admit that he's been pretty uneven at best. But I think you're overrating McCartney there, too. He's had more than his share of garbage. More good and more garbage, because he's put out so much more. I consider most of his work as being pleasant throwaway music.

I'm a McCartney fan but I'm well aware that his prime was in his first 2 professional decades. I'm glad he keeps releasing new cds, some I like, others gather dust forever in my shelf, but I don't fool myself believing that at this point he's gonna release something that will change people's mind about his work. It just won't happen.

Oh I shouldn't have opened the McCartney bag! Evidently not everyone's sharing the love. That's OK what me-that's what makes the world go round. I'm off to listen to Flowers in the Dirt in the mean time.

Um, wait right there. I didn't say Wilson had "never put out crap", I said that he's "considered never to have gone crap" - ie. critics generally like him even when he puts out a dud, the overall critical consensus (not us here, whining about minutae) is that he's still got a good track record and nevertheless is still good.

As for McCartney, he's frittered away a lot of critical goodwill with subpar albums. For my part, I've enjoyed little bits here and there of his 90s/2000s stuff -what I've heard of it - and believe that Calico Skies is as good as just anything he wrote as a Beatle. I couldn't care less about most of Wings though.

That's nothing to do with what I feel. To be honest, I haven't even bothered to buy a few of Brian's albums (I own 88, Imagination, OCA (somewhere), Roxy and Smile. I will pick up TLOS.)  I'm talking about the Critical Consensus.

And if you think the Stones never went crap, then you're out of your mind. The only question is, when should they have split up, 1973, 1978 or 1981? Voodoo Lounge has some moments - New Faces, The Worst, that are very good indeed, but even that's fifteen years ago. Now they produce tired by-the-numbers albums and lifeless, over-slick shows.

I'm actually quite excited about Al's album as well.

Hey John, I know you are right about it when you're talking about the critical consensus. And all of us are entitled to have our own personal opinions. To me it's just unbelievable that there are people around here who rate Brians solo work higher than Macca's. But I think this is not the most objective place to be for a conversation about that. The Stones should have quit round 76 or 78, after Black and Blue or Some Girls. They have really gone crap afterwards, there's only 5 songs that I like which were written after that time. (Waiting on a friend and start me up were old songs)

I personally am not rating Brian's solo work higher than Macca's-- I'm not familiar enough with McCartney's catalog. However, I do love BW88-- it's not a forgone conclusion that it's a bad album. The songs are top-notch, in my opinion, and I actually like some of the production.

And when I think of solo Brian, I think of the peaks. Some of the  songs are terrific-- like Midnight's Another Day, I Sleep Alone, There's So Many, Melt Away, Rio Grande, Oxygen to the Brain, What I Really Want for Christmas, What Love Can Do, etc . We know that both Brian and Paul have done some crappy stuff in their solo careers. As for the good stuff, maybe Paul had peaks that were just as high. ?? I don't know.

Why are we comparing them again?

Yeah, Some Girls would suit me too. Emotional Rescue is a largely awful album, and though Tattoo You is good, it's mostly from the vaults. 1978 it is then.:D

The argument was originally that these artists from the older generation, by and large, aren't counted on to break any new ground or to procude records that are risky or challenging.

That said, I didn't mean to dissuade anyone from enjoying McCartney's solo albums. I've bought every one of them, and even if they don't break new ground, or even if some of them aren't uniformely great, he can always be counted on for some stellar cuts, even in his later years. I particularly love "House of Wax" and "Mr. Bellemy" from the latest.

Mr Bellamy is a good little song. I like how he switches to the low voices of the policemen / firemen: "Steady lads". It's a bit I can imagine John and George doing in another time...

Amy, like you, I don't have ALL of McCartney's solo albums, but I have enough of 'em. And, I also forgot why we were comparing them! But I'm gonna jump in, and probably get blasted, but what the heck...

I agree with Yorick, there is no way that Brian's solo albums rate higher than McCartney's. I don't even think it's close. And I'll try to get right to the point.

Brian's solo songs, production, and performance aren't even near McCartney's. The weak point of BW88, Imaginaton, and GIOMH is the production. As far as the songs are concerned, I know many here will disagree with me, but I just don't think the majority of Brian's solo songs are that good. On each album, maybe one great one, one or two good ones, and a bunch of disappointing ones. And don't non-Beach Boys fans (the other 99%) agree? I know you can't always base quality on sales, but why do you think Brian's albums have tanked? Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THAT GOOD. If they would've been, believe me, word would've gotten out (like Pacific Ocean Blue now) and those albums would've taken off. And lastly, Brian Wilson does not sing well enough to warrant the praise of other major recording artists, including Paul McCartney. Listen to Paul McCartney. With a few exceptions, he has sounded basically the same for the last 40 years. He's very good. Can you honestly say the same about Brian?

Macca's production was pretty awful in the 80s and some of the 90s, too, in my opinion. I think it was with Flaming Pie that I began finding it listenable. Flowers in the Dirt, for example, I hated the production. Just awful, every bit as bad as Brian's bad stuff. But he had more good than Brian in his solo career, no doubt about that in my mind. As for percentage of good stuff, I'm not as sure. And frankly, I have no intention of doing the math! I like them both, generally.

Well, Brian was still recording with the Beach Boys during the first 15 years of Paul McCartney's solo career... and much of that period, Brian wasn't putting much of his written material on Beach Boys albums.

But a comparison of the two gents from 1988 to the present... a lot of weak cuts on both sides. Paul has probably had stronger moments in all, and sure his voice sounds youthful. But I like the 1988 album, Orange Crate and the Wilson/Paley lineup a whole ton. From 1988 on, I can't think of one McCartney album that I like all the way through. Not even close. But that's just me.

One reason why I asked why we were comparing them is because it's not really fair. When Paul does a poor job, it's possibly because of laziness or carelessness. When Brian does a bad job, it's also possibly because of laziness or carelessness... or because he's got brain damage...or because he's mentally ill... or because, as some argue, other people are actually doing most of the work.

So it's complicated. I'm not trying to make excuses for Brian, but I bring up the peaks of his work because I think, considering all of the above, they're remarkable. And I think TLOS is remarkable, because it's an attempt to be more than just another album. It's this "longform work" with themes running through it. Paul's most recent album apparently has a theme too, but I just think Paul has fewer excuses when it comes to doing less than stellar work.

Here's my side by side comparison:
BW: Brian Wilson-Like almost all of the songs, pretty good singing, inconsistant production (I like "Let it Shine" and "Melt Away," dislike a number of another cuts) A-
MACCA: Flowers in the Dirt-Like almost all of the tunes, some real Macca classics; not my favorite production, but "We Got Married" is killer in all respects. A-
MACCA: Off the Ground-not as good as the previous, 40% filler, I don't dislike the production. B
BW & VDP: Orange Crate Art-superb A
MACCA: Flaming Pie-gorgeous A
BW: Imagination-horrible mixing, I don't care for the production, 70% good songs, pretty good vocals, a B-
MACCA: Driving Rain-very good A-
BW: BWPS-goes without saying that I love A
MACCA: Chaos and Creation in the Back Yard-a letdown for me, dilslike a lot of it with the exception of "Fine Line," "How Kind of You" and "Too Much Rain," but not offensive C+
BW: GIOMH-good material all around, I don't like the singing on everything but the title track, "Desert Drive," "City Blues" and "Fairy Tale," and much of the production is not my cup of tea ("DLOHNSAA"). C
MACCA: Memory Almost Full-my favorite Macca album since Tug of War, A
BW: TLOS (based on the demos and live recordings)-Brian's best material since BW 88, and probably the best overall album since The Beach Boys Love You. A

Just my two penny worth. I'd also like to apologize for derailing this thread, if it ruffled anyone's feathers...

Yes. A brilliant album if you ask me. :)

TdHabib, I respect your opinion, and I also enjoy your posts, but, as far as these grades are concerned, in the words of Michael Edward Love, "You're too kind...." :police:

Absolutely.  And as I understand it, BW arranged the background harmonies and vocals and then recorded them all in just SEVERAL HOURS in a SINGLE afternoon.  I think he works very quickly and with little effort when working with VDP and I actually consider VDP an unofficial member of the BB.  I think the VDP 'wordplay' inspires Wilson and it shows in the enthusiam BW sings those lyrics with on OCA.  I think TLOS would have turned out more 'top shelf' had it been a full on  BW/VDP effort.  Would really love to see them work together again on a new project.  I think VDP, in any aspect(composing, arranging, lyrics), is more in the league of folks who should be collaborating with Wilson these days, but I am sure VDP commands a larger paycheck than collaborators from the Wondermints....and with good reason....  

By the way, what ever happened to the BW/ Burt Bacharach collaboration I heard about some time ago?  What happened to the rock n' roll album BW was talking so much about about a cupla years ago?

As for the Rock and roll album, well I'm not too sure anybody knows anything about that, other than the fact that it's probably not going to happen. As for the Bacharach collaboration, I'm pretty sure it was just the one track that was released on the New Music From And Old Friend album called "What Love Can Do"

Actually, VDP arranged everything and simply told Brian what to sing. This was confirmed by Van Dyke himself on the blueboard a couple of years ago and again on the blueboard by a blueboarder who had recently had a chat with Van Dyke. The thing that has amazing VDP all these years is how quickly Brian was able to learn the parts and then record them, one by one, in a very short period of time.

Look, I'll agree with the proposition that BW88, Imagination, and GIOMH weren't produced very well.  

But WIRWFC and Smile?  I strongly disagree.  And based on what I've heard, TLOS looks very promising as well.

As for the songs, again not to belabor the point, but I strongly believe there's enough strong songs that you could put together a very good compiliation of Brian's solo music.

Let's Go to Heaven In My Car

BW 88:  Love and Mercy, Melt Away, Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight, Rio Grande

IJWMFTT: Do It Again, This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight

OCA:  Orange Crate Art, Sail Away

Imagination: Your Imagination, She Says That She Needs Me, South American, Lay Down Burden, Cry

Live at the Roxy: This Isn't Love

BWPS: Caroline, No, I'm Waiting for the Day

GIOMH: Gettin' In Over My Head, City Blues, Desert Drive

Smile: Good Vibrations, Gee/Heroes & Villians, Surf's Up, Song for Children/Children is the Father of the Man

WIRWFC: The First Noel, Christmasy, What I Really Want for Christmas

What Love Can Do

TLOS: That Lucky Old Sun/Morning Beat, Midnight's Another Day, Going Home, Southern California

Bonus: It's Not Easy Being Me, Proud Mary, Spirit of Rock and Roll (non-Hallmark version)

Again, 30 plus quality, good songs.  Considering Brian's career has been marred by fits and starts  combined with the damage Gene Landy did, I think he's done pretty damn good.   Does it stand up to what Brian did with the Beach Boys?  Of course not.  Does the bulk of McCartney's solo work stand up to what he did with the Beatles?  On balance, no.  But it doesn't lessen my listening experience to BW's and McCartney's solo work one iota.

What would your grades be, Sherriff?

BW: GIOMH-good material all around, I don't like the singing on everything but the title track, "Desert Drive," "City Blues" and "Fairy Tale," and much of the production is not my cup of tea ("DLOHNSAA"). C

I personally wish I had "Gettin' in Over My Head" and "Saturday Morning in the City" on a single. "Fairy Tale" is also very good. I also like "A Friend Like You," though I know many people find it to be cringe-worthy. The drums are great, the production very nice, and Paul's vocals bring a youth to it.

If I had to put my own BW solo comp out, it would include these:

BW 88:  Love and Mercy, Melt Away, Meet Me In My Dreams Tonight, Rio Grande

Being with the One You Love

This Could Be the Night (from the Harry Nilsson tribute)

IJWMFTT: Let the Wind Blow, This Song Wants to Sleep With You Tonight

OCA:  Orange Crate Art

In My Moondreams (from "Pulp Surfin'" on Del-Fi Records)

This Isn't Love (instrumental, from "Songs Without Words" on Windham Hill)

Imagination: Your Imagination, Lay Down Burden, Cry

GIOMH: Gettin' In Over My Head, Saturday Morning in the City, Fairy Tale

Smile: Do You Like Worms, Song for Childen/CIFOTM

WIRWFC: On Christmas Day

What Love Can Do

TLOS: Midnight's Another Day

Bonus: In the Night Time (from the '85 BW/Gary Usher sessions), Rainbow Eyes, "Country Feelin'" (from "Sweet Insanity"), It's Not Easy Being Me, Marketplace, Soul Searchin', Some Sweet Day (all from the 1995-96 Wilson/Paley sessions)

Firstly, as the album took some three years to record, I seriously doubt that Van Dyke called Brian in for just one day: the vocal sessions were doubtless spread over several months.

As for who arranged the vocals, in an interview conducted at the time of release it was stated that Brian arranged the majority of the vocals in the studio.

Okay then. Interesting. I should have clarified that this was what VDP told _me_ on the blueboard when I asked him who arranged the vocals. Maybe Van Dyke isn't being truthful or is remembering wrong, but that's what I was using as my source.

I'm not sure who claimed it was "one day." I've never heard that. Also, I don't know where "just a few hours," came from except that in an interview Van Dyke said it took a short time "and we still had time for Chinese chicken salad" or something. I would assume, from hearing about Brian laying down vocals for other people, that it was relatively fast.

One of my favorite parts in Carlin's book was the passage about Brian coming in to sing on Orange Crate Art.  Before the first song, Brian wonders aloud what he was doing there and Parks tells him it's because he can't stand the sound of his own voice- which apparently made sense to Brian. 

I think the Chinese chicken salad quote was in reference to the recording of the SONG "Orange Crate Art," not the entire album.

Might that have been a "Brian's Back"-style piece of propaganda in an effort to move a few copies? It might generate more interest with critics and the public to say BW arranged all the vocal parts than to say he came in and sang Van Dyke's. Sort of how older reviews of later-period Beach Boys albums seemed to always overstate Brian's involvement?

One of the joys of being a BB fan/researcher/geek/whatever - the same people remember a situation differently down the years. Won't say who, but I've had someone ream me out (in public) for quoting them, claiming they'd never, ever said that. So I played them the tape of me interviewing them some years earlier.  Happy days...  ;D

I tend to think TLOS is the "rock n' roll" album Brian's been talking about for years. I recall the interview he gave around '99 where he wanted to do a rock album with "big drums and big social themes". Well, I'm not sure whether the studio version of TLOS will have "big drums", but the big social themes seem to be a part of it and it certainly has a lot of rock elements in it (for Brian, anyway) including a little bit of his beloved "Proud Mary" embellishments!

Maybe it was, originally. We're told (by AGD? Can't remember) that MAD was originally a rocker. Maybe Brian tried it and was reeled in by Scott (a wise decision in this case, IMO). Or maybe the rock and roll album is just Brian's stock answer to "what's next?"

Or maybe the rock and roll album is just Brian's stock answer to "what's next?"

You're catching on.

Brian wrote his best rock 'n' roll stuff in years on the Wilson/Paley sessions, 1995-96. That's where "Desert Drive," "In My Moondreams," "Soul Searchin'," "I'm Broke," "Chain Reaction of Love" and "Some Sweet Love" came from... all great cuts that harkened back to the type of rock 'n' roll that was cut in the pre-folk-rock/"Pet Sounds" environment.

BW88: B-
IJWMFTT: C
Orange Crate Art: D
Imagination: C
Live At The Roxy: B-
Pet Sounds Live: C-
GIOMH: D
BWPS: a fraud, no rating given. I give the SMiLE concerts an A+
WIRWFC: C

As I look over this list, I ask - what are the strong points, what is Brian hanging his hat on? It ain't the production; the production was the weak point(s). It wasn't the singing; Brian's lead singing is not good and the multi-layered backgrounds are annoying. Which leaves the songwriting. On almost all of the Beach Boys' albums, right through Love You, even MIU, Brian always had that "how did he write that" quality to his songs. Some charming, innovative melody or arrangement that made you just sit and wonder - and enjoy over and over. That quality, more than anything, is what I find missing in Brian's solo work. When I hear his solo songs, I KNOW what he's trying to do, which is usually trying to emulate his prior work. It just doesn't work. For me anyway.

So, I have a question for you. It's a long one: While we all know that album sales are not always a measure of the album's quality (I'm not debating that point), why do you think all of the above albums died a quick death, were heard by virtually no one, and probably aren't played very often today?

Because, like you said...

**When I hear his solo songs, I KNOW what he's trying to do, which is usually trying to emulate his prior work. It just doesn't work. For me anyway.**

Just apply that across the board as ageneral consensus. I mean, plus, he's an older artist, and people don't generally consider artists Brian's age to be a wellspring of cutting-edge material. Robert Wyatt is one of the exceptions, not the rule.

I mean, I can appreciate the good stuff, and I'm a big fan of the Wilson/Paley sessions, flawed as they might be. No one ever seems to write anything about them when I talk about it. But whatever. It's just that, if I was going to look for material that has the same tripped-out, breathy quality as Brian's mid-to-late-'60s material did, I would turn to Olivia Tremor Control or someone like that in the present.

Not an OCA fan? Well, that's subjective because it is a very personal thing; I was in a special situation when I heard it for the first time and I still harbor the same memories. Also, I have a liking for Brian's mid-1990s, pre-Imagination vocals, which are an acquired taste (nasal, high (in more ways that one), single tracked).

In that interview was it stated by Brian or VDP? Remember Brian could at the drop of the hat say he loved teh album then turn around and say he doesn't even remember it. I'd guess BW did some of the arrangements as they went along.

As for the rock and roll album...did anyone see teh interview he did around 2005 on CBC in Canada. He talked about the rock and roll album and named 5 or six songs that he had wriiten for of it. I can't recall the titles but none of them were those that will be included on TLOS.

While we're at it:


BW88: B
IJWMFTT: B- (I like the recordings more, but it's just covers)
Orange Crate Art: C
Imagination: C+
Live At The Roxy: B (See IJWMFTT)
Pet Sounds Live: C+ (See IJWMFTT, but it's wearing thin. Yes, they're very good. But come on...)
GIOMH: C--
BWPS: A+, sound can't be a fraud. If you wanted something other than what it is, it's your fault as the listener. 
WIRWFC: B

BW 88: B
IJWMFTT: B
OCA: C+
Imagination: B
Live at the Roxy: B
Pet Sounds Live: B-
GIOMH: C-
Smile: A+++  One for finishing it after 37 years.  Two for actually recording it.  Three, for being by far the best solo work Brian's done. 
WIRWFC: A
TLOS (live): A

BW 88: B+
BW 88 Reissue: A
IJWMFTT: A-
OCA: B
Imagination: B+
Live at the Roxy: A-
BW Live DVD: B-
Pet Sounds Live: C
Pet Sounds Live DVD: A
GIOMH: B-
BWPS: A
BWPS DVD: A+
WIRWFC: A-

BW 88: B+
IJWMFTT: C+
OCA: A-
Imagination: B
Live at the Roxy: B-
Pet Sounds Live: C-
GIOMH: F
Smile: A
WIRWFC: C+

Well put

Why do you consider SMiLE a fraud?

BW 88: B+
IJWMFTT: C
OCA: B
Imagination: D
Live at the Roxy: C
Pet Sounds Live: D-
GIOMH: F
Smile: A
WIRWFC: Never Heard It (other than "On Christmas Day")

BW '88 B- (great songs, awful production. I enjoy it more if I think of it as a bootleg of demos put forward for a Beach boys album.)
IJWMFTT - never heard it.
OCA - C (cannot identify with it at all. I mean, I've never gone surfing either, but that music is infectious, not...middle-aged.)
Imagination - C (so-so songs - except for a few, awful production)
Live At The Roxy - B+
Pet Sounds Live - never heard it.
BWPS - A+
GIOMH - Never heard it.
WWIFXMAS - Never heard it.

I'm surprised, but pleasantly surprised at your ratings. I must've been reading the wrong things into your posts; I'll re-read them now. BTW, why didn't you break down and buy the Christmas CD?

Also, I have a liking for Brian's mid-1990s, pre-Imagination vocals, which are an acquired taste (nasal, high (in more ways that one), single tracked).

I'm the same way. That mid-'90s period for Brian seems like an inspired time. Maybe not youthful and earth-shattering, but it feels like he was cutting songs that inspired him, on a Phil Spector-level, and they felt genuine.

That said, whatever the flaws of Wilson's solo career have been, my hunch is that if some of these cuts were covered by the Belle & Sebastians of the world, they would sound amazing. I think he's written a lot of great tunes. "Live Let Live" is a catchy number, "There's So Many" is beautiful. Actually, I don't mind the '80s synths and drum machines on the 1988 album whatsoever, because the production techniques on that album are so clearly Brian that it almost reminds me of how he used keywboards on "Love You" -- clearly in the Brian Wilson style. It was "Sweet Insanity" where the instrumentation got to me, because it had '80s synths (in the era of Nirvana!!!!), yet it didn't sound like Brian's production. I can handle any technology or instrumentation, when it is filtered through Brian's style of layering pianos, counter-melodies and his cool percussion.

BTW, why didn't you break down and buy the Christmas CD?

I don't know... just didn't see the point. There's so many things out there that I want to buy, I don't see why I have to own every single thing Brian or the Beach Boys ever put out.

This is how I feel.

Also, I'd love to hear Melt Away with Wrecking Crew orchestration. And those other songs with the Beach Boys vocals. I think you can even hear which Beach Boy Brian had in mind for each song. Mike definitely on Night Time, Alan on Let It Shine, etc.

BW 88: B+
IJWMFTT: B-
OCA: A
Imagination: B-
Live at the Roxy: A-
Pet Sounds Live: never heard it
Pet Sounds Live DVD: A
GIOMH: C
BWPS: A
BWPS DVD: A+
WIRWFC: B+
TLOS (live): A+

BW 88 A-
IJWMFTT B-
OCA C+
Imagination C+
Live at The Roxy B-
Pet Sounds Live B-
BWPS A +
GIOMH D -
WIRWFC C+

FWIW, I rate the live PS A
Sweet Insanity D-
Paley Sessions (a collected version of the best of...) B +
TLOS B + (rising higher at times!)
I'm not sure we should judge stuff on whether it died a quick death. I'd like to think I'm more intelligent than that. Van Morrison's turned out the same old turgid (often badly sung) sh*t over the last 20 + years and yet he still has a respectable audience; on the other hand, Fogerty seems to rewrite his songs album after album - and I love 'em.  There's a ton of stuff in the charts that isn't worth a damn and some stuff that is.  Imagine if we applied this dumbass logic to movies in the current climate.  God forbid.

BW 88: A- (love these songs and can handle the production, which sometimes even serves the song)
IJWMFTT: B (great material, but a rehash and not in Brian's best voice, IMO)
OCA: B+
Imagination: C+ (I may be a little harsh here. Some of the songs are good, but the production...uggh)
Live at the Roxy: A- (I love this CD. The band is great, and Brian sounds enthusiastic)
Pet Sounds Live: B+
GIOMH: Don't own it. I do have GIOMH (the song) and Desert Drive. They're both great. I have also heard Parkes' cover of Saturday Morning in the City and love it.
Smile: A+ (a fraud? Nope. Brian finally worked on it and released it with the resources he had available. I think it's a tremendous piece of work. Brian's best music, a terrific band, and the original orchestration, albeit with different players. Couldn't ask for more, unless you had a time machine.)
 
WIRWFC: A (I really like this one. Nice arrangements and two great originals. Not sappy or sentimental. Just joyful and genuine, like Brian on his good days.)
TLOS (live): A (Excellent.)

The wildly differing grades on this thread just go to show how subjective all of this is. With some people, I feel like they're listening to Brian's music and trying to find what's wrong instead of letting it wash over them. There's a lot of baggage when you know the guy's story and have heard the rumors. Sometimes you just have to try to hear the music for what it is.

I totally agree.  Brian had to overcome 37 years of bad memories, emotional hurdles, and self-doubt about the music to be able to get back on that horse and push Smile to the finish line.  I don't care if Brian didn't spend every single second in the studio with Darian and Mark.   In the final analysis, when everything was said and done, Brian had to give the final okay for the whole project to proceed. 

If Brian didn't want it to happen, it wouldn't have happened.  Brian was in the ultimate position to sabotage the whole project.  But, thanks to a stable, positive support system backing him up every step of the way, he sung his ass off, the music sounded great, and I have a copy of Smile in my CD collection that I play on a regular basis- something I never thought I'd ever have.

And yes, I agree that the performance on the DVD had a little more energy to it. 

Smile is no more a fraud than Summer In Paradise masquerading as a Beach Boys record.

Personally, I think it's sad (perhaps telling) that on a board dedicated to BW and the Boys that lower ratings of Brian's albums make one fan respect another more.

I agree with that statement. Personally I think "Melt Away" should have all of that crazy percussion. It's like a synthesizer wall of sound. I'm also happy no-one's been negative about BW88, because my line of classic/near classic Brian work of the last 30 or so years goes something like this:

Love You---->BW88----->2 or 3 choice Sweet Insanity cuts----->Paley Sessions---->finishing touches of BWPS------>TLOS.

I'm happy so many people contributing their ratings. Great to have a wide perspective.

He was always onto a loser with some people with regards to SMiLE.  It's the nature of many a middle-aged fanboy to have spent years drizzling over 'their' version of SMiLE, so when the 2004 version appeared some people weren't going to be pleased.  It's not just the BB; take a look at any given moment on the Steve Hoffman board and you can find grown men goofing each other off over obscure variations of Beatles recordings or whether John was better than Paul or Bob was better than all of them or whether that was Macca cutting a fart in Ebony and Ivory - and, of course, the whole song was exactly that.   >:D

 BW 88 B+
IJWMFTT C+
OCA never heard it
Imagination Neverheard it
Live at The Roxy Never heard it
Pet Sounds Live Never heard it
BWPS A +
GIOMH Never heard it
WIRWFC Never heard it
 ;D

I don't think it's sad at all. It would be sad if everyone were insulting BW or the BBs on a board related to them, but that doesn't seem to be what happened here. I think it's just a matter of people recognizing one another's relative objectivity. Yes, preferences are subjective, but there is hopefully a relative objectivity within any one person's choices. And so if a person thinks Pet Sounds is brilliant, it's hard to understand extreme devotion to GIOMH, for example, because one is just so (to put it kindly) different. To some of us--serious fans, all--it seems like blind worship when people give everything BW does 4.5 to 5 stars. And so it is refreshing when, without malice or insult, we see people say, "You know, I love Brian Wilson, but that album just wasn't very good." I think it's far more sad when people give all high scores, or when they think it's sad that others don't.

 I think Brian is aware of what the quality of his songs are. I'll make the distinction of "Excellence vs.Success." Where an excellent song doesn't have to be successful (ex.- Caroline No) and a successful song song doesn't have to be excellent (ex.- Kokomo.)  When Brian heard Rubber Soul for the first time he recognized the quality of the entire album. The music industry of that era had pushed for albums that contained two or three good songs and the rest filler. It's my opinion that any output by Brian is welcomed by his management. Does anyone here think that Brian writes 30 or so songs and then the best ten are chosen for an album? I don't. I'm curious if any of Brian's collaborators have ever said, "No Brian, that melody isn't very good."

 Its all subjective anyway according to the effect a song has on a listener. An artist is always going to have his current work compared to previous work. I wish Brian would spend 6 months if he wanted to, to perfect a song and release it as a single for download.  I enjoy reading all of your opinions in this thread.

just looking at what people marks people are giving here, there really is a case that brian and his management should have a lot more belief in the quality of his solo material from Love You onwards than appears to be the case (not easy . When did he last play "melt away" in concert, for example? would anyone else like to hear an extended live version of "night blooming jasmine" ?  :)

I love all of Brian's albums, but only a few of them have my respect.

I am certain knocking out the vocals in one day is what I read in a VDP interview shortly after the release of OCA.  I will post if can find it again.

The Rock 'n' Roll album is Brian's running gag since the 80's when asked what's up next.
Now he even gave a title: "'Pleasure Island, A Rock Fantasy' - A real rock recording."


http://www.thereminder.com/features/page2feature/brianwilsontoappea/

"We did all the songs and, then, my wife, Melinda, and my friends, Darian (Sahanaja) and Scott Bennett, sequenced all the songs together."

sigh...

That's what you focus on?
You didn't paste the entire quote. "I wrote the songs," said Wilson. "Van Dyke Parks wrote the narration and the lyrics of one song. We used (Cole Porter's 1949 song) 'Lucky Old Sun' as a theme. We did all the songs and, then, my wife, Melinda, and my friends, Darian (Sahanaja) and Scott Bennett, sequenced all the songs together."

"I wrote the songs," said Wilson.
"I wrote the songs," said Wilson.
"I wrote the songs," said Wilson.

If you're going to take the other part at face value, you might as well take this part at face value. Anyway, who cares who sequenced them? I think whoever did it did a great job, so good for them. 

Hear, hear.

The interview is pretty hysterical overall. Taylor Mills has come into her own because she's singing more loudly? Heh.

This just proves you can never, ever even remotely predict what Brian's up to/ or what he says he's up to!  :-D

It's gotta be a put-on. 'Pleasure Island'? That sounds like a weird Mike Love/Terry Melcher idea. Glad to see he's still got his sense of humor!

Doesn't seem that far-fetched when Darian is working for Disney, and at Disney's Orlando megaplex there (used to be, don't know if it's still active or not) a more adult-orientated area called Pleasure Island near Downtown Disney.

I'm looking forward to TLOS, and if Pleasure Island is on tap next from BW, I'll look forward to hearing that as well.

On the "Words & Music" interview disc for OCA, Brian refers to (I paraphrase, obviously) singing standing up, not liking it and asking for a chair. He then says that the next time he came to sing, he asked for his chair. I don't think he meant after the lunch break.  :)

My understanding was that the title track's vocals may have been recorded in one day, but that all of the album's vocals took over two years to record. I recall Brian stating in an interview around the release of OCA that he had never worked harder or longer on doing vocals for an album. You can actually hear Brian's voice change throughout the sessions. The vocals recorded early on have a smoother timbre, but as Brian's return to smoking began affecting his voice more, there's a huskyness that settles in. The same progression can be heard on the Paley material, I believe. Once Brian quits smoking in '96, his vocals gradually return to the smoother timbre he has now (for the most part). That's my theory anyways.

There has never -- NEVER -- been the understanding that the entire OCA album had its vocals recorded in one day. This is patently ludicrous to begin with. I was a fan at the time, following the press in Billboard, etc., and it was never put that way.

Van Dyke said, when talking about the title track (which was all he planned on having Brian sing originally), that Brian came in and finished the vocals in a day. They had time for a chicken salad sandwich, he said (or something similar.)

The source for OCA having Brian-arranged vocals is the Timothy White book. The album had not been released at that time. The publicity for the album itself was pretty straightforward, in that Brian said that Van Dyke told him what parts to sing throughout the album.

This is a fascinating subject. I would think that "Hold Back Time" (which I love as a song), would have one of the later vocals.

Just to get everyone's opinions, what's everyone's favorite vocal on OCA? My personal favorite is "Sail Away."

The title song... without question.

I've said it before...and I'll say it again right now: the title track and "San Francisco" achieve the heights of the SMiLE material in my opinion.

I just watched this again and realized that all the photos from the past are of just Brian or Brian with Dennis and Carl. No photos of the BBs as a group. I suppose _someone_ was worried about lawsuits from _someone_?