The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm interested what people think about how things evolved in the late 60s and 70s.

I see the original "smile" as a psychedelic rock album with perhaps baroque and early prog-rock elements.

We know that Brian didn't overtly pursue this further, despite hints on later work. Other people did, though, and took things in various directions.

Was this because of Brian's disposition? By his nature, would he have been able to create heavier rock along the lines of Hawkwind, Gong, or King Crimson ?

Songs like "Mess Of Help" and even "Sweet Mountain" perhaps show where he was heading in this regard.

On the other hand, were the band itself and the people surrounding them the main obstacle to Brian becoming a real 70s rocker?

Baroque perhaps; heavy, no.  However, I don't BW was/is ever able to let go of that gentle, lighter, idiosyncratic touch.  It's part pf the man.

In what way(s)?

I don't want to be derogatory or judgemental, but much as I rate Al, Bruce and Mike's singing ability, they belong/ed more to the stripy shirt era. Which as we know was hugely successful, and loads of great music was made.

I'm just thinking of an imaginary album that could have combined tracks like "mess of help" "marcella" "fairy tale" "day in the life of a tree" "till i die" with more out-there and harder-edged instrumentation. And if this could have been Brian's "Dark Side of the Moon" !

In no way am I saying the other Beach Boys were writing bad music at this point, just that much of it had a different ethic.

Yes, I also would've loved to see more Brian songs from that area. He was only contributing about two or three songs per album.

But, I'll ask again, specifically, IN WHAT WAY(S) was the group an obstacle to Brian becoming a "real 70's rocker"?

Was the band an obstacle, or the fans?

After all, it was the fans who bought vast quantities of "greatest Hits"-style packages at the time and thereby dictated the direction the band would take.

If they'd ignored the repackages and bought Holland and C&TP-ST and Surf's Up by the million, then the BBs would have had a commercial incentive for following that creative, progressive path.

If you're a shop keeper and you sell ten times as many red pens as blue pens, you're gonna stock more red pens.

The other band members weren't necessarily pushing that stripey shirt tripe un til after the "best Of"s sold in huge quantities. Cal Saga, which I love, Trader, Forever, Only With You, Funky Pretty, All This Is That, Long Promised Road, River Song, Take  A Load, Feel Flows...

The band had the potential, the talent and the ability to be that progressive band without any Brian involvement, if they so chose.

But then the fans bought Endless Summer, Spirit of America and 20 Golden Greats, and the band responded to that demand.

I think with "At My Window", "My Solution", "A Day In The Life Of A Tree", "Til I Die", "You Need A Mess Of Help To Stand Alone", "The Fairy Tale", "The TM Song", "Lazy Lizzie", "Shortenin' Bread", and several more - Brian DID pretty much record whatever he wanted.

Yes, the lyrics were debated/changed, but, ultimately, the songs got recorded. And many got released. Do you think the guys WANTED these types of songs? Probably not. But Brian did 'em anyway.

Brian didn't have the "hard rocker" in him. Ever. He may have gone closer to a Pink Floyd asthetic (ie rock oepras and concept albums) but I can't see him as being a psychedelic hard rocker.

Dennis on the other hand had the potential, I believe.

I'm not sure if this should be seen as desirable and whether it's better or not it depends on your taste. And the old canard that prog/psych/heavy rock is somehow more adult or mature is a load of b-a-l-l-s. I'd take early 60s Beatles or Beach Boys over swirling keyboards and romantic B.S. about elves and trolls (or even elvis and trolls, although that might make it more interesting in a sorta National Enquirer groove) any day.

"I have no idea what's going on with this heavy metal stuff. I can't understand the theater of alienation. I don't think it should be done in song or reinforced musically." -Van Dyke Parks

Carl certainly had the voice for hard rock.

While both might last close to 30 minutes, I'd take the average sixties Beach Boys record over Rick Wakeman doing a stunning solo any day.

To my ears, 'Til I Die is not even close to seventies rock. Like so many great Brian Wilson recordings it's sophisticated in a way that seems just a lot more sympathetic and not half as braggy to me than what was fashionable at the time.

To the extent the BB were psychedelic it was just the way records like Smiley Smile or Friends turned out,  not a conscious choice to be heavy or atmospheric like Pink Floyd's "Ummagumma" or "Satanic Majesties".   I remember a number of reviews of Smiley Smile calling it VERY psychedelic, which was how it sounded to me - very hippy and trippy - until I learned the whole story of how it came to be.

One clue as to Brian's taste on "heavy" sounds is the liner notes to the Surf's Up CD reissue, in which he says he STILL dislikes "Student Demonstration Time" with its sirens, Moogs, bullhorn, and fuzzbox-direct guitars -- and the BB never went to that well again.

No. They were an obstacle to Brian completely retiring in the 70s.

I played the Pet Sounds instrumentals 2 days ago for someone who didn't know the name of the band, and they thought it was psychadelic...I don't hear it...made me sad to hear them say that...kind of diminishes the actual quality of the songs and recordings to label it psychadelic...IMO...

When I first heard "Pet Sounds," I have to admit, it sounded slightly psychedelic to me. Maybe it just felt a little closer to folk-rock, with a thick sound and lyrics that didn't sound like ANYTHING I previously associated with the Beach Boys. I'd heard the singles before, but the first time I heard "Pet Sounds" was in college, and it sounded really different and cool.

When I first heard Pet Sounds, I described it as "spacey".

Weird. I always thought Pet Sounds had a lot more in common with Burt Bacharach than Syd Barrett.  :lol

Exactly. When I first grabbed a copy of PS, I expected a psychedelic-by-the-book opus, with harpsichords, fuzz guitars, dreamy vocals.....

And the first thing I heard was an accordion.  :lol

Very hard to totally define the Beach Boys, they seem to be many different things to different people  :)

Musically it's not a huge jump from "Mrs O'Leary's Cow" to "Interstellar Overdrive" but the BBs were/are considered on one side of a cultural divide for whatever reason.

It's certainly true that after '67 Brian wanted to move on in a direction which might have led him to a heavier sound, but it's also true that he wasn't your stereotypical lairy rocker either.

I guess if you spiked Beethoven you'd get psyched-out Beethoven music, not Dave Brock.

Don't forget Brian wanted to follow up Smile with a record of water sounds and a comedy album. Avant garde and trippy, yes....rocking out, not so much. Lei'd in Hawaii is another example, super mellow. I don't think Brian was one of those guys who was heavy into tripping people out through epic synth prog jams. Yeah, Smile comes close to this weirdness and was influential on some prog/rock bands (think pink floyd's vocal stuff or elo), but i can't see a really progressive rock album coming from Brian. I think he was probably more occupied with figuring out how to get the kick sound from Be My Baby and other more 'classic' rock & roll things to take a journey off into the void of extended synths solos ala Wakeman.

His sound was too concise for jamming. The spaciness was experimentation within the style he helped invent, master and which he felt most comfortable producing.

With this in mind, I would compare SMiLE-era Brian with Moody Blues rather than Pink Floyd.   

I compare SMiLE! with nothing....there is nothing to compare it to. Period...


......except New Kids on the Block....

I think there are some things it is similar to. Like The Millennium - Begin, Van Dyke Parks - Song Cycle or Jan & Dean - Carnival of Sound as well as lots of various 45s that came out of L.A. at that time. Each of them unique in their own way of course, but on the same wavelength in terms of vibes IMO

Vibes I agree.... but that is very vague....


All I suggest is that songs like Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Wonderful, Wind Chimes, etc, are so genius, so far beyond anything that the music is incomparable...but as far as vibes are concerned, I agree.

Brian Wilson is Brian Wilson....B.D.W.....I find no comparisons...maybe (probably) I'm just giddy....

Hmm....I guess I should re-state that and say vibes AND lyrical content, production techniques, orchestration and even things like phrasing (and more technical musical techniques I can hear but am not great at explaining) of feels and the like that are VERY similar to the sounds of Smile. Many of these people spent time with Brian during the era at things such as the famed dinner parties and other celebrations of the era (think the picture of everyone with Brian at the airport). Yes, Brian and Van Dyke's songs are majestic and flew higher than most others - but remember Smile never came out. And it had already made a splash locally amongst fellow musicians, artists and friends; not to mention the music media - Smile is one of the most hyped up albums in history, it was coming on the heels of the Good Vibrations single and how could that not have made an impression?

There are a quite a few songs around there dealing with the impact Smile had on those who were lucky enough to hear it and/or the subject matter of its non-release and the resulting effect that caused in L.A. Off the top of my head, songs I can think of (and the albums they are contained within) are Sagittarius' My World Fell Down (ft. Bruce Johnston, amongst others), Chad & Jeremy's Painted Dayglow Smile, The Smoke's Cowboys & Indians (written after Micheal Lloyd attended a H&V recording session), Hyle King Movement's Flower Smile, Fun & Games' Don't Worry Baby (w/Our Prayer style intro), Laughing Gravy's Vegetables (obviously) and other obscure  45 releases associated with people such as Tandyn Almer, Curt Boettcher, Gary Usher, Gary Zekley et al. There are also documented stories of Brian walking into the Ballroom's recording session for Baby Please Don't Go right around the time he started Smile and apparently it made a strong impression. And I recall something about David Marks walking into a session for Good Vibrations (while possibly on LSD...I think) around the time he was starting The Moon with Matthew Moore. So in conclusion, no there aren't songs that sound exactly like Smile era BW, but all songs are different really in their individual ways and I believe a strong case can be made for the similarities between Brian Wilson's original Beach Boys Smile recordings and other psychedelic sunshine pop being produced in Los Angeles during the same period (usually with the same backing musicians, in the same studios ;D)

Excellent post.

It's not a far-fetched notion that Brian Wilson produced psychedelic material. I think Olivia Tremor Control and other E6 bands showcased that psychedelic vocal style by placing it in a '90s shoegaze/neo-psych setting, combining guitars and psych vocals, with odd instrumentation, the way Wilson used vibes, horns and strings on things like "Bag of Tricks" and "Fire." Jimi Hendrix, despite not liking "Heroes and Villains," called it psychedelic barbershop music. So the notion that jazz/lounge instyrumentation and vocals could be psychedelic is not unimaginable, and in that sense, the material that Brian Wilson cut in 1966-68 is still very trippy.

The High Llamas' "Gideon Gaye" album also seems to have come out of the dream-pop/neo-psych idiom. Their subsequent albums were much more lounge. But "Gideon Gaye" has an inimitable weirdness that is hardcore neo-psych, despite the lack of fuzz guitars. Early Stereolab seems to be shoegaze/neo-psych as well.