The Smiley Smile Message Board

1) was the original track of "I'm In Great Shape" (sax, bass & piano) connected to  "I Wanna Be Around"?

2) is there a name for the section that closes the cantina version of H&V found on the GV boxset? this same section closes the "H&V sections" track on the same disc. it features pizzicatto strings, harmonica and Brian's vocals.

3) at one point, didn't Brian say that "Surf's Up" would close the album?



thanks.
now let me think of a few more

In order -

No.

No, but it was once thought to be Barnyard, until the actual Barnyard came out. It's since referred to as "false Barnyard".

Yes. Brian always contradicts himself. For all we know, he probably wanted H&V to close the LP.

You're welcome.

I like "Heroes And Villains" as a closer, especially with "false Barnyard" tacked on to the end. The lyrics to "H & V" are in past tense, and it makes a nice review for the album, fading off into the sunset.

And, "You're Welcome" is the perfect opening track. "You're welcome to come...to Plymouth Rock...on the voyage...on the trip...the SMiLE trip".... 

Wow, an offhand remark of mine got a response like that....seriously though, it makes sense having H&V at the end, but this WAS 1966-67. I don't think Brian had any intention of a "concept album". Even BWPS, that sounds like a concept album.

BRIAN DOES NOT MAKE PROGRESSIVE ROCK! (this yelling is performed with love and mercy)

Sheesh, if Brian heard Rick Wankerman (koff) he'd probably have an episode, assume the fetal position in the shower, and wait for the poisonous gas to come out of the shower head (old BW story from the 70s, in some of the books). That Moog wankery would throw the poor man for a loop!

Yeah, I don't think "Heroes And Villains" has ever been mentioned as a closer, except on assorted fan mixes. But the lyrics, "I've BEEN in this town so long" and "taken for lost and GONE" and "fell in love YEARS AGO" and "but she's STILL dancing" and "my children WERE raised" and "they started slow LONG AGO" and on and on...

But, I guess it could also be a guy who is telling his story by LOOKING BACK FIRST. I love trying to figure out SMiLE, because you can do whatever you want, and no matter what configuration you use, it always comes out sounding good. :police:

It makes sense, but only to us. I doubt that Brian would have done Smile as a concept LP. BWPS, sorry...that ain't Brian who assembled that (sorry, Darian, Melinda, and Leaf).

Agreed.


I think SMiLE! was as much a concept as Pet Sounds, whatever that means.


...the only difference that seperates BWPS from any other fan mix is that BWPS had the final go ahead from Brian Wilson...that may not be the same Brian Wilson of 1967, but it's still Brian Wilson. Or is it Brian Ledbetter, I get confused....

Or Sgt. Pepper's for that matter.

I don't even think Brian considered Pet Sounds a concept either, despite what Melinda tells him to, I mean, despite what Brian says now. Pet Sounds and Smile were pop albums in 1966-67. Nothing more, nothing less.

How come everyone's so convinced that Brian had nothing to do with the sequencing of BWPS? Weren't he and Darian fairly emphatic that Brian was significantly involved in the sequencing? I find it hard to believe that Brian had absolutely NO input in the sequencing of BWPS, after all, he could remember the melody for Worms - I doubt this was a tune which he whistled on a regular basis in the preceding 38 years. It amazes me how little credit Brian now gets for BWPS, yet read any interview with Darian at the time and he seems fairly excited by the process of recreating Smile with BW and VDP, and Brian's engagement in the project.

Surf's Up as a closer makes a lot of sense to me. Plus doesn't Vosse put it there in that 1968 interview he does? Interestingly in the same interview (if I remember correctly) Vosse places SU at the end, followed by Our Prayer, which means that Our Prayer at one point was potentially the closer to the album, which in honesty makes more sense for me, than it being an intro followed by H&V as it appears in BWPS.

Siegel also describes BW playing the acetates at a party, and that Our Prayer was the last acetate he played. The way Siegel describes the music gives the impression that Our Prayer was a perfect closer to the Smile music.

I know Brian can be clearly heard during the OP session saying it's the intro to the album, but I think it's highly likely that he changed his mind. I prefer it at the end myself. As Sherrif John Stone points out, pretty much any Smile track can go anywhere and no one can argue with you!

Priore, in his infamous (well, here anyway) post BWPS book puts up a good case for I Wanna Be Around following Fire. Apparently Carol Kaye remembers it being this way when she played at the sessions, plus the times of the pieces add up (to something - can't remember what, but it's convincing) but more importantly put I Wanna Be Around after Fire and it just sounds perfect - better than any other marriage of Smile tracks imo. The pieces definitely suit each other better than Fire and the Water chant to my ears - the way the last few bass drums (the sound of faling timbers?) drift into the mellow lounge music of IWBA is very groovy, less obvious than 'water putting out the fire' and totally the sort of thing BW would have done at the time. IMO!!

I' would have liked "You're Welcome" as the opening track.  I've read somewhere it was just meant to be a little warm-up for the live performances.  But I just love it. That's my 2nd disappointment with BWPS, the other being the exclusion of the fade tag to Vegetables that's on the box set.

I totally agree, Fire into I Wanna Be Around is the best order.  They do fit really nicely together and I always thought of it as rebuilding after the fire to finish the elements.

Yeah the rebuilding idea is great. Damn, Smile is so great I'm going to think of some of my own Smile questions and put them in here!!

1st up: How an earth would H&V intro (or the whistley bit before Fire on BWPS) have been the intro to H&V?! If you just stick it before H&V it sounds really odd. Maybe BW might have put the flutter horn between the intro and H&V to smooth the transition?

I was listening to some early takes of it, and it started off with a really sinister organ line - reminded me of pantomime villain music, which made me think aha!! Maybe it was originally created to suggest the villains in H&V? It's the first time I've thought that it might actually belong. The only other H&V music which sounds similar is the version of Western theme that has whistles and similar effects on it.

As far as I know, isn't its association with Fire a misconception created by David Leaf?

just so I'm clear here.....

the sequencing of "Great Shape" into "I Wanna Be Around" never happened until BWPS?

Actual "sequencing"? Then no, not until BWPS. However, I believe there is some tape documentation that suggested at some point in '66 that the two tracks were related (which is probably why they showed up together on BWPS).

That asssumption was based on a mis-labelled AFM sheet, which put "Friday Night"/"I'm in Great Shape" as the tracks cut that day, while the corresponding tape box was for "Friday Night"/"I Wanna Be Around."

We assume it's mislabelled, but who knows - possibly FN/IWBA was considered by Brian as a section of I'm in Great Shape back then.  I thought the label was "Friday Night (I'm in great Shape)" - the parentheses indicating FN was part of the larger Shape track?

Vosse did say that Surf's Up was talked about as the end of the album, with a coda that was a "chorale" vocals only piece that when described sounds like Prayer but was not identical to Prayer, because at the time of the interview 20/20 was out and Vosse had heard it (he comments on Cabinessence being released and how it was originally planned to be different on Smile) - so he would have mentioned that the track Prayer would have closed the album.  To me it seems he's describing a reprise to Prayer or something similar.  I've been putting the final "Amen" of the Lord's Prayer at the end of my Smile mix to duplicate what he's talking about, but I just thought of something.  There's a Brian mix of the Smile Prayer that has the next to last vocal section edited out.  Could he have done that to place that section at the end?

Oh, and I forgot - there is a name for the fade section of the cantina version of Heroes besides "false Barnyard" - when it was rerecorded on Feb 28, 1967 it was titled "Fade to Heroes and Villains."

Brian, not Darian, but Brian, had the chance to set the record straight (no pun intended) when he put "I'm In Great Shape" - "I Wanna Be Around" - "Workshop" in that running order on BWPS. That sequencing is something one would remember from the 1966-67 project. We're not talking about a song construction, melody, and/or lyrics. If you believe that Brian had major input into BWPS (which I don't BTW), then you have to think this is the way it was meant to be.

That's a really good point that Our Prayer was actually on 20/20 at the time, and that Vosse surely would have called it Our Prayer in the article - I hadn't thought of that.
Maybe as you suggest Brian planned a reprise of Our Prayer to close the album. Also (I'm sure others have suggested this), maybe the coda to Surf's Up would have been a chorale thing similar to Our Prayer - it certainly has a similar descending notes thing to Our Prayer, and the way he sings the wordless aahhs on the demo, it almost could be a reprise of Our Prayer - of course the coda to the 72 version kind of undermines that theory, if you believe that's how Brian intended it in 66, but of course Vosse hadn't heard the 72 version at this point so he could have been describing the actual coda to Surf's Up.

That Vosse article just makes you wish the interviewer had pressed him a bit more at the time. Like: "Wow, a two part a and b side H&V! Can you remember exactly what sections were in parts 1 and 2?!" Actually, didn't Vosse turn up and answer loads of questions on the old Smile shop about this article? Did anyone ask him if he could remember what bits the long H&V had in it? Is that thread still archived anywhere?

Obviously,if released on vinyl in 1966 or 1967, Smile's running order would have had to be different,edited & shorter,due to the time constraints of vinyl(a vinyl L.P. can hold 22 minutes per side before the volume level  must be compromised), but I'm sure,given the mediocre quality of Capitol's pressings in the 1960's,and the limited quality of the typical teenager's phonographs in those days,that Capitol would have been reluctant(a fear of skipping) to go much past 18 minutes per side. The two sides of a vinyl record would have precluded the 3 movement concept that Brian Wilson used on BWPS. Perhaps the running order advised by Domenic Priore in the 2nd edition of "Look Listen Vibrate Smile" is closer to what a 1960's "Smile" would have been like.

If anybody has time, would they kindly post Domenic's order. Thanks....

SIDE ONE: Heroes And Villians/Do You Dig Worms/You Are My Sunshine/Wonderful/Child Is Father To The Man/ Our Prayer/Cabinessence
SIDE TWO: Good Vibrations/ (The Elements)-Vegetables-Wind Chimes-Mrs. O'Leary's Cow-Cool Cool Water/Surf's Up

[sic]

One of the vinyl bootlegs uses this same track list on the first LP.  So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

On an old, old, OLD fan mix I made years back (2002 or so), I ended with TOMP/YAMS, with the "false Barnyard" fade. It sort of gave the album a sense of closure. The lineup was this:

Our Prayer/You're Welcome
Tones
Do You Like Worms?
Heroes and Villains Themes (the sections mix on the box set from the Bicycle Rider theme to right before the "false Barnyard" tag)
All Day
Look
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man
I'm In Great Shape
Cabinessence
The Elements: Vega-Tables
                       Holidays
                       Wind Chimes
                       Mrs. O'Leary's Cow
                       I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night
                       I Love To Say Da Da
Good Vibrations
Surf's Up
Heroes and Villains
Barnyard
The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine (with "false Barnyard" tag)

Thanks, AvanTodd....I gotta digest that list/sequence a little bit....

O the subject of Great Shape: a thought which occurred to me last night -

There's a Brian mix of various Heroes sections starting with Gee - I presume it's what he was doing for H&V part 2 - the b-side to the Heroes single (imo, but it's the most feasible assumption I think). It's very similar to Linnett's Heroes sections mix on the GV box, accept it misses the False Barnyard tag, and dum dum bit before the tag. Anyway, my point is you can hear that the swedish frog section has been physically chopped out of the mix. This always makes me wonder why he spliced it out, and the only logical conclusion was that he wanted to use Swedish Frog somewhere else, but where? Well if Great Shape, by the time of the hand written list given to Capitol, had become it's own track, then the Swedish Frog section with it's barnyard chant feel would be a perfect addition to the track. It might have started with Great shape as we know (eggs & grits etc.) running into Swedish Frog, and finishing with Barnyard as a fade. Barnyard following Swedish Frog works really well as it's very similar in tempo to the Heroes section that follows it in Mark Linnett's mix. This version of Great shape becomes a sort of Barnyard suite, with 3 definite barnyard themed pieces put together - maybe the Barnyard suite that Brian(?) described later on, was actually Great shape with various barnyard bits following it. I'm going to try this in my mix anyway!

On the other hand, Brian has said numerous times that they only had to put together the third suite, which could imply that the order of the first two suites was more-or-less a given. 

In Brian's piano runthrough of H&V for Van Dyke, he goes into I'm in Great Shape and Barnyard, as if it were all part of the same section.  Was this the original plan, or was Brian just drifting from one section to another?

I think he was drifting, because of his saying, "Well, we're still working" or something like that. It seems from that that you wouldn't really say that halfway through a song if that was the correct sequence.

I believe that Great Shape and Barnyard were originally written as Heroes sections, but at some point Brian decided to turn them each into their own tracks.  But when he played that piano version, those 3 sections were all Heroes I'm pretty sure.

All this talk about Brian's intended sequence... I thought he didn't have an intended sequence in 1966-67, and that was one reason why he began to feel overwhelmed with the whole project. I thought the intended sequence was changing all the time, according to Brian's whim? I mean, Heroes and Villains alone has so many incarnations. Are we really to believe that 1966-67 Brian had a longstanding plan for anything regarding Smile's sequence?

I strongly believe the answer is no. I doubt he ever had an overriding plan, but more likely went through numerous options as moods or whims struck him. That's why I always disregard most of the "this is how he intended it" talk: I don't believe he had any single intent for it.

......then again, never underestimate Brian, his decisions, and what was really going on in his head, in his world...something tells me that the man who wrote Cabinessence, Surf's Up, and the rests of 'em would've been very aware in his mind of the way the music was to be presented- not saying he did but I wouldn't be surprised.

As far as BWPS, the same thing goes. Holidays into Wind Chimes must've been an original idea. Brian may have had a bigger part in the sequencing than we are led to believe. Consider that Van Dyke worked with him too. His influence must not be overlooked.

Also the way Wonderful fades out on the box always led me to believe that there was meant to be more. Wonderful into Look is too natural a transition to have been put together by Darian. Granted, Darian may have discovered the connection but I feel it was intentional from the get- go.

You know, I just get the feeling that with BWPS we may not be giving Brian enough credit...maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not selling him short. I'm saying that an intelligent, musical man working with a lot of deliberately interchangeable parts was bound to play around with the possibilities, that's all.

I agree that Brian had something to do with the sequencing of BWPS. .. unless all of these people consider Darian to be a liar! In the NPR interview that went with the presentation of the Carnegie Show, Darian talked about how Brian heard the chords of Wonderful and then the chords of Look (or Child) and said to Darian, "That goes next to that!"  I'm not saying Brian did it all-- clearly, you can tell that wasn't the case, even by watching David Leaf's doc.

Also, in another interview, Darian said he played the 60s recording of something from Smile to Brian, who said, "No. Let's not use that. Throw that away." And Darian said it wasn't used because of that, no questions asked. He tried to keep Brian in the loop, if not in charge, and when Brian was engaged, he listened to what Brian wanted.

I understand and agree with you...it's just that when it comes down to BWPS I'm hoping Brian was more involved than we are inclined to believe so I try to stick up for him in this respect...probably rightfully so.

That is the one area where I think Brian had the most input (see, I do give him SOME credit), which is WHAT SONGS he seriously considered to be in the final 1966-67 album.

I actually have this mental picture of Brian laying on his couch, with Darian sitting there with his laptop, playing some mp3's for Brian, like "He Gives Speeches", "With Me Tonight", and "You're Welcome", and Brian responding with, "Yeah, that was gonna be on", or " No, no, we junked that". And, then Darian knew which songs to work on and which ones to not waste his time working on. I have to believe Brian would remember the basic question - is that a song that would've made the final cut, and which ones were just experiments that didn't "fit" the puzzle?

Of course, which has been pointed out, 1966-67 SMiLE was such a work in progress that it's difficult to pinpoint WHEN a song was in contention to be included, and when - and if -  it got cut.

When you listen to the demo, he does go right into Shape from the the Heroes verses.  Then he says "here's another section" or something to that effect and goes into Barnyard, and says "we're still working."  From that I deduce that indeed Shape was to immediately follow the verses, and that Barnyard was another section, likely the fade, but they were still working on other sections/transitions that he didn't play or they hadn't written yet.  Cantina was not yet written for example.  Van Dyke in Priore's book mentions that Shape and Barnyard were part of Heroes from the beginning, and that Cantina came later (no doubt when Shape/Barnyard were excised and made into their own song).

Talking about H&V sections, "My Only Sunshine"  allegedly was part of the very first H&V basic track, the session that was recorded in May 1966 and taped over.

In November, it wasn't part of H&V anymore, it was now in the middle of a 3 part-suite with "Old Master Painter" at the beginning and "False Barnyard" aka "Barnshine" as part 3.

The same "False Barnyard" became the last part of the "Heroes & Villains" cantina mix in January 1967 of course, just to be completely rerecorded in Feburary with the same arrangement. Confusing.

I realize how pointless it is to speculate on how SMiLE would've been sequenced in '67, but it sure makes for some interesting discussion! 

It is interesting, and frustrating, in that we have to speculate instead of going right to the source. For as great as the SMiLE music is - arguably among the greatest music of the 20th century - I still find it hard to believe that there has never been a detailed, relaxed, informative, track-by-track, exlorative, in depth interview with Brian Wilson about the SMiLE songs. I mean, has it ever even been planned, even in its infancy stages? Even for historical purposes?

Brian has now lived 41 years since he created that music, 41 years....I just find it hard to believe....I mean, I think of other artists who have discussed their songs/music through the years - Paul McCartney, Paul Simon, Ray Davies, even Bob Dylan (see Biograph) have opened up....and there wasn't as much mystique and questions about their songs....

Well, for a LONG time, Brian wouldn't talk about SMiLE at all to any great extent, because of the bad mojo he associated with it.  Things changed in the 2000s of course, but even in the heady SMiLE days of 2004, getting Brian to talk about ANYTHING in an in-depth manner is hit-and-miss.

Yeah, but you gotta remember, we're talking about SMiLE here, a one of a kind project.  The other artists you mention had their challenges, but nothing like SMiLE.

And we're talking about Brian here.  He never seems to want to talk about SMiLE, and interviewers have tried to pry it out of him for years.  

c-man, you beat me to it, but I think we pretty much said the same thing!

That's even more reason why I want it! It is a one of a kind project. There HASN'T been anything like SMiLE. It's a part of HISTORY. I'll even volunteer to do the interview. Melinda, are you out there?:police:

The interesting thing about this session is that it PREDATES Van Dyke's involvement, if you believe Brian and Van Dyke who date their meeting at Terry Melcher's when they decided to collaborate as July 1966.  So Brian did indeed have the title of the song, presumably the verse sections, and then a My Only Sunshine fade.  Which means he was already writing and thinking in "sections" that could be interchangeable with other songs in May 66, before Good Vibrations was close to being finished.

Doesn't Siegel talk about the moment Brian comes up with the YAMS bit in The Goodbye Surfing article? Surely this would date it way after May 66.

What's interesting about the article is that he describes this weird clarinet bit that Brian comes up with based on the bassline of Sunshine (or somesuch) and I couldn't work out which piece of music this was, but just recently it occurred to me that Siegel's most likely referring to the False Barnyard fade that was originally part of Sunshine. What's confusing though is that he describes Brian recording Barnyard and woodshop sounds over this piece - maybe False Barnyard did have such sound effects at one point.

Sherriff John Stone:
I don't believe that Brian just lazily okd Darian's sequence for BWPS, and nothing more. In the Priore book, Darian explains that Brian grouped the songs based on their sound, rather than thematically. He explains that the Americana and Life-cyle songs songs sort of gravitated towards each other as a result of this. In the process, Brian made some interesting decisions - one of which was to butt Look straight after Wonderful; apparently Brian's decision. I don't find it hard to believe that Brian was engaged enough to group like-sounding songs together and make musical decisions about which songs would follow which.

It seems that Darian probably would point out here and there what songs might have significant relationships and explains that he bought it to Brian's attention that Holidays had a link to Wind-Chimes in its tag. Brian says oh yeah and so they put those songs together. I guess Darian would just be speeding the process up in doing this, after all, something like that is failry siginificant, yet might be missed by someone who hasn't listened to Smile or Smiley Smile in 38 years. 

Therefor as I see it, yes Brian played a significant role in the sequencing. Ultimately I believe it was led By Brian's choices on which songs would they would keep, and which would be trashed, and also on which songs would be grouped together. But I also think this was probably aided by Darian with the occasional nudge here and there as to which songs had significant links to one another. Therefor I think Brian's role in this process was much more significant than many here give him credit for.

Yes, Van Dyke stated that Brian was already working on H&V when they started writing together. But Brian came up with the melody for the verse while working with Parks, he explained it in the 'Beautiful Dreamer' docu, that he thought Van Dyke was in control of his hands. So the verse as we know it was probably not part of the May version.

But Van Dyke said that Brian played him the verse melody, he asked him to play it again and he came up immediately with  "I've been in this town so long . . . "  which to me means the melody was already in place when they collaborated.  Unless you're saying when they got together, inspiration struck Brian and he invented and played the melody to Van Dyke at the same time . . . a bit of a stretch I think.  Van Dyke has said that Brian came up with the music, then he would do the lyrics, and the music was all Brian's - although I suspect Van Dyke had more input on the music than he lets on.

I think I remember reading somewhere that Heroes and Villains was in part based on vocal exercises Brian, Carl and Dennis would do when they were in the car together when they were younger.

It's been a while since I last watched the 'Beautiful Dreamer' DVD. I checked it out again yesterday and yes, I mixed a few things up and it's possible that Brian already had the verse melody. I too think that Parks cowrote some of the music.

Van Dyke has always categorically denied that he wrote any of the SMiLE music.  He has said, more than once, that he was in the employment of Brian Wilson, and his job was to write lyrics.  That's how he saw it and that's how he approached it. 

He has claimed to have made arrangement suggestions.

That could be true, I know he suggested the cello triplets in "Good Vibrations".

Any quotes you can provide? 

He SAYS he suggested the cello triplets in "Good Vibrations"...but so did Carl. 

What did Carl say?

He has claimed he wrote lyrics for "Pet Sounds", too, though.

"...at the last take Brian said, 'I want to put another instrument on the low end, what can I use?'  I blurted out 'cello', and that was the word that wanted to be said."

Maybe Carl said "cello", but not mentioning specifically the cello triplets, and then maybe VDP said "have the cello play triplets". 

Just speculating on how it may have went down. This situation would make both stories true.

interesting stuff...!


back to SMiLE:

i'm wondering how much of "Can't Wait Too Long" dates back to SMiLE.
i'm pretty sure the instrumental bit at the end with bass, drums and organ was SMiLE-era, but how about the verses, etc?

that ending is heard on the 2-fer version but not on the boxset for some reason... it's great.

i also think it's a real shame that the H&V fade (aka false Barnyard) was left off BWPS.

I thought CWTL started after SMiLE?

I too though, love that ending. Wonder why the GV set left it off?

I raised the question about "Can't Wait Too Long" in the past ('cause I wasn't sure whether or not to put it on a SMiLE mix), and I could get no concrete evidence that it started during the 1966-67 SMiLE sessions. I still occasionally put that a capella CWTL snippet from the Hawthorne CD on a mix. I like it somewhere around "Wind Chimes", or right before "Surf's Up". One time I used it as an intro to "Heroes And Villains"

Regarding the long version of CWTL being left off the boxed set, I always thought they were trying to give us something new (the alternate, shorter mix), figuring most who bought the box already had the 2-fer with the long version. No?

Regarding CWTL, don't you wish we had a good version of the a cappella bit on the WAYYYYYYY old Smile boots? That part's so cool.

Are you talking about the piece where they're doing a blues scat or the group vox of "Miss you darlin?"

The blues scat bit. Although the other mentioned bit is also cool, we have it in pretty good quality.

Ok, that's what I thought.

Yeah I'd like to hear that in good quality as well

Is there any basis for the speculation that CWTL was originally connected to Wind Chimes somehow, other than the similarity of the chord structure?

I think most people associate the two because CWTL has the same riff as Wind Chimes - it's an identical riff and so it's logical to presume that CWTL grew out of Wind Chimes.

There's a great version that starts with a beautiful accapella intro and I always thought this intro was from the smile sessions, but everyone I've ever asked says that the earliest CWTL sessions are from Wild Honey. It's not inconceivable that he had started sketching it out during Smile though, but there's no evidence to support that as far as I'm aware.

I think CWTL is definitely Wild Honey era. The genius didn't die with Smile.

That's postin'.