The Smiley Smile Message Board

Please trust me when I say that I know how utterly stupid lists ranking works of art in numerical order are.  They inevitably show up the stupidity and subjectivity and lack of cohesive standards of the compiler or compilers.

But out of sheer, brain-bending boredom- the next option was to stand next to the parakeets' cage and say "Pretty bird! Pretty bird!" for twenty minutes or so, which they don't get a whole lot out of, either-  I was reading the Rolling Stone 500 greatest albums list, looking for something really good that I didn't have, or something, when this jumped out and bit me:

254. Whitney Houston, Whitney Houston

255. The Kinks Are the Village Green Preservation Society, The Kinks

Fifteen spaces later, The Beach Boys Today! finally shows up- the first Beach Boys appearance on the chart since the number two spot with Pet Sounds, and only thirty-three spots behind McDonna's Like A Prayer album.

How do they sleep?

How do they sleep?

BLISSFULLY.

ignorance is bliss

I hope "Muswell Hillbillies" fared better

Oh, heck no.  It's not as good as Whitney Houston or McDonna, either.  I'm pretty sure spot number 255 was the Kinks' first appearance on that list, but glad to know there's another Muswell Hillbillies supporter out there- personally I like it a little better than Arthur or Lola Vs....

In the insane non-logic of those things, though, it's fun to think that there are only 33 albums on Earth that are better than The Beach Boys Today!  but not as good as McDonna's Like A Prayer.  Or that there are about a hundred or so albums better than The Complete Hank Williams but not as good as Straight Outta Compton. I must be a pretty astute listener, because I distinctly remember hearing Straight Outta Compton way back in art school and casually remarking- "Say, that's a lot better than Hank Williams' whole career. Good job, guys." Guess those guys who didn't agree back then feel silly now that the list is out.

All that aside, though, their top ten or so are not silly at all, with Pepper and Pet Sounds as the top two, pretty consist choices on lists like that- I'd be pretty close to the same list. I guess it's easier for some strange reason to choose the ten greatest than numbers 201-300.

It's funny that this thread begins with something like "I know these lists don't matter," etc., and yet it goes on to take issue with the choices. Make your list: while I don't know your taste, I'm certain I'd mock it. And you could do the same to mine. Are we all so desperate to have our own taste reaffirmed?

Rolling Stone, in trying not to piss anyone off, made a list that would piss everyone off. Thus three being three Eminem albums on the list and all of them placing higher than Sunflower.

Not really funny...I know what you're saying, but a better synopsis of what I was saying would be: I know these lists are silly, but gosh, look how really silly this is...

They list hits compilations and box sets, so that an album like Thriller is rated 33 places ahead of Ray Charles' entire Atlantic Records catalog , i.e. his work from 1952-1959. The anarchic, garage-y semi-competence of Never mind the bollocks here's the Sex Pistols is eight places "greater" than the consummate, on-fire musicianship of the Allman Brothers Band At Fillmore East. (How can those two possibly share a category?) Phil Spector's A Christmas Gift For You comes in at 142, trailing The Notorious B.I.G.'s Ready To Die (which he did) at 133, but both are way behind number 64, Spector's  Back To Mono, which contains  number 142 A Christmas Gift For You. And as far as I saw- the first 300- the Good Vibrations box set is not listed (nor is Sunflower, Friends, All Summer Long, Pacific Ocean Blue, Endless Summer, Summer In Paradise, etc.

Most of the selections are excellent, especially within the first hundred, but when you start looking closely it gets curiouser and curiouser.

Please rank and number the following items:

Brussel Sprouts
Yellow
Hot Dogs
Oil Filters
Julie Newmar
Keys
The White-breasted Nuthatch
Poetry

That's my point.

Incidentally, I wasn't looking at the list for validation of my utterly exquisite taste, which you all could benefit from emulating, but for ideas- I was in the mood to buy a few albums. Sirs and Madams,   :rock I did so.

 :thewilsons

I'd always prefer a number of individual top ten lists reflecting personal favorites over one single oh-so-carefully thought-out top 300 of the "greatest" records ever.

:lol @ rolling stone...

come on now.

Agree completely- it's the ambition of it all- throwing Hank Williams and Miles Davis and Notorious B.I.G. and the Sex Pistols and Frank Sinatra onto the same list- that ends up making it so laughable.


Agree with this, too.  The magazine that was giving Sgt. Pepper and Pet Sounds- their numbers one and two- four stars out of five in the seventies and eighties guide books, but giving five stars to The Beatles' Second Album and All Summer Long, neither of which (I think) they currently rank...

I'll never forget their analysis of the genius of "Don't Worry, Baby"...you know why it's a great song?  Because the car is a sexual metaphor.  Now you can impress your friends.

The hypocrisy, the smugness, the biases...removing those from Rolling Stone would be like removing the staples.

I agree that personal lists make more sense. To pretend there is such a thing possible as an objective "greatest" list is ridiculous. Surfer Joe complained about Allman Bros. being too low on the list, for example; but there's no way in hell I'd put any Allman Bros. on a list, ever. I despise them despite their talent. On the other hand, my top 500 would definitely include some NWA, which earlier was complained about. It would also without question include another half-dozen or so hip hop albums I think are brilliant. (Although not the Biggie or Eminem mentioned earlier.) This thread ought to be moved to General Music Discussions, by the way.

I'm not seeing the "complaints" you're talking about. I used the proximity of the Allman Brothers Band to the Sex Pistols on a list to make the point that they are not only not remotely comparable, but actually sort of opposite (except in that both bands were revolutionary and influential). And yet there they are with Frank Sinatra and Miles Davis.  And there an NWA album is with Hank Williams' whole career, compiled on ten CDs.  Is Straight Outta Compton (which I don't dislike, by the way- haven't heard it in years and years) better or worse than say, a live radio performance of "I Can't Help It If I'm Still In Love With You"...? Or Hank's conversation with  Minnie Pearl?

Maybe that makes the point clearly.

Can't imagine how anyone who's heard At Fillmore East could "despise" the enormous talents of the Allman Brothers Band...hilarious to me. Incidentally, Duane and Gregg Allman made their first significant appearance on a stage warming up for the Beach Boys in Florida in 1965. Later I think the two bands connected once or twice at the Fillmore East or West...

       Glad I can amuse you. But I didn't question their talents, either. I just can't stomach listening to them (no matter who they opened for in 1965).

I've never really been a huge Pistols fan, but I think that album deserves a high ranking on any list of important albums. First reason: they made rock & roll a threat again. In a way, they took rock music back to where it was when Bill Haley and Elvis stepped into the spotlights. They made it something dangerous and shocking again. Second reason: many people like to believe that the Pistols were just a bunch of punks who couldn't really play, but I disagree with that. Sure any musician could easily play the notes, but I don't think that many people could do it with the same drive and attitude as the Pistols. They rocked.

Quoth H. Munster: Darn! Darn! Darn!

The reason I posted here, by the way, is that my secondary point was the low showing of the Beach Boys. Aside from the non-validity of lists like that, in my view, the Beach Boys- who get a lot of critical respect in general- outside of Pet Sounds they don't get much recognition as an album band. They're treated as a singles act, which isn't accurate when you listen to albums as distinct as Sunflower or Friends or Smiley Smile or Today.  To me they kind of compare to the Kinks in this regard- albums seemed to reflect a total change in mood more than overall direction or growth (like the Beatles). Maybe that's getting too esoteric...but it remains that outside of their specific fan base they only really seemed to score big time, for the ages, at album length just the once.  I think that's hurt their overall stature just a little, just like it's hurt CCR's.

I wish Capitol had had the vision to keep Endless Summer in print and treat it as the classic album it is, rather than keep the repackaging in constant change for economic purposes.  The album belongs in the public consciousness for good, and would have made a nice companion to Pet Sounds when people do start thinking about lists.

Agree.  The album is sitting right here by my desk...(one of about a hundred).  Not a huge fan either, but I do get it.


That's interesting.  They do have that image...maybe they fostered it a little themselves.

I would put Julie Newmar at #1 (purrrrrrrfect as Catwoman) and Brussels Sprouts in last place...but that's just my own personal taste.  :lol :lol   

Lists, especially ones in music magazines, are so subjective and a lot of times pretty much don't make sense. Rolling Stone, Pitchfork (technically a website), Blender, and Spin have all pissed me off with their stupid lists and such. But I still enjoy reading them just out of curiosity to see how my bands, especially the BBs, fare on the pointless lists.

For what it's worth, Sunflower is on that list.

You're right- I hadn't read past 300.

2.     Pet Sounds
270. The Beach Boys Today!
380. Sunflower

Not as good as (What's The Story) Morning Glory? by Oasis (376),  CrazySexyCool by TLC (377), or Roxy Music's Siren(371), but better than A Quick One (Happy Jack) (383), A Hard Day's Night (388), or Roxy Music's Country Life(387). Maybe if they had substituted "Walkin" for "Tears In The Morning" it would have been better than the TLC album.



And your personal taste would be inarguably correct, sir. Julie Newmar would come in just ahead of Sergeant Pepper .

(http://lpcoverlover.files.wordpress.com/2006/11/julienewmar.jpg)

Brussel sprouts would tie with Summer In Paradise.

When watching "The Making of 'Never Mind The Bollocks...' documentary, I was amazed when Chris Thomas pointed out that "Anarchy In The U.K." had about six guitar overdubs on it. I had honestly never thought of that kind of attention to detail going into this seminal punk album, but given that Chris Thomas had made his name working with Roxy Music, it makes perfect sense.

any entity that would count an antisocial misogynist wannabe such as enema em as worthy of being on a list of any kind other than on a list of those to be executed is not an entiy of any worth...

and if the entity is going to "count" record company hyped white substitutes for black artists then Pat Boone should be on the list at least twice.

ranking 500 or whatever it is albums doesn't even make sense to my brain.  rolling stone seems to have an endless supply of these books or magazines or websites and they change every few years to include some recent critics' darlings, only to have those titles disappear in the next edition.  Kinks' village green (one of my favorites) is a good example of an album that was all but ignored until "Picture Book" was used in a TV commercial.  I think that pretty much sums it up.

I agree with your main point, but you're wrong about the Kinks' Village Green. It was an indie favorite in the mid-90s when bands such as those in the Elephant 6 sprung up. Kevin Barnes of Of Montreal, for example, always praised the band and that album. But of course the commercial brought it to another new set of ears a decade later.

Yeah, but did they talk about it in Rolling Stone?

village green has always been an album respected by real people who like good music ....

but yes, the point is the popular critics (rolling stone etc) jump on these bandwagons when the hip cred becomes mainstream ...

there are plenty of incredible, noteworthy albums that do not appear on these lists and will not appear until they gain widespread attention somehow

the previously mentioned muswell hillbillies is a great album that kinks fans and indie musicians etc know is great ... i doubt that appears on the list

INCREDIBLE albums that i would suspect are not on the list (i have not even read this list):

leonard cohen - death of a ladies' man, new skin for the old ceremony
beach boys - friends, surf's up, holland, love you, DW pacific ocean blue
tim buckley - greetings from L.A., starsailor, etc
kinks - muswell hillbillies, great lost kinks album
curt boettcher - there's an innocent face
anything by the turtles, lovin' spoonful, ventures
anything by brian jonestown massacre
belle & sebastian - fold your hands child, dear catastrophe waitress

... i'm sure we could all go on and on all day ... point is we may see some of these down the line (especially after RNR hall of fame inductions etc) once more people start listening or some corporation places a track in a commercial

Actually, the Rolling Stone Record Guide (1978 Edition) gave VILLAGE GREEN PRESERVATION SOCIETY five stars (highest rating). I believe that rating remained consistent through the subsequent editions.

HOWEVER, the various RS Record Guides are notorious for changing the ratings from edition to edition based on supposed "critical reevaluations". In that 1978 guide, SURF'S UP received a five-star rating whereas PET SOUNDS was given three stars! I believe SUNFLOWER somehow got a two-star rating. Anyway, by the 90s, Rolling Stone grudgingly gave PET SOUNDS five stars while noting that it may or may not be Brian's masterpiece (RS considered TODAY & SUMMER DAYS... better). Oh yeah, the SUNFLOWER/SURF'S UP two-fer was reduced to three stars (I guess the mediocrity of SUNFLOWER dragged down the brilliance of SURF'S UP  ::)).

that's exactly what i'm talking about

i know there is one RS book somewhere that ranks the Kinks' SOMETHING ELSE higher than VILLAGE GREEN (90s?)

I don't think there's any shame in that, either. Something Else is also a brilliant album. Seems a bit like complaining that somebody said Rubber Soul is better than Sgt. Pepper, or Smile material is better than Pet Sounds. As with many great bands, there are probably 3-5 Kinks albums that could easily be ranked atop their catalogue, and Something Else is one of them.

JEEZ..ill make it more weird.. Theres is no way i could compile a list without breaking the styles of music down... I couldnt mix Jazz ..Blues ..Country..Pop..And rock + all its other divisions..On one list..I couldnt mix..jeff beck ..Larry carlton..Miles davis..with albert Collins ..BB King..Beach Boys..Kinks Who..garth Brooks..Alan Jackson...ETC ETC..... Id have a list for every style of music.. 10 desert Island disks for each style of music...LOL...!!!!

Is it my computer or is this site slow?


Anyhow, comment is I agree with previous poster that there are so many different KINDS of music how could you possibly lump them all together in a list?

Who would you leave out?    I usually have a current favorite that gets a lot of play.  Something I have rediscovered for the 2nd or 3rd time....................such as one of the aforementioned Kinks albums.

Oddly enough, I have a copy of the original vinyl release of Best of Mary Wells on my turntable right now and it has been played several times over the past few weeks.  I hadn't listend to that in years but right now it is my current favorite Motown album....bar none.   And I have become bored with recent Dylan releases...played them too much.  But I have Highway 61 in the cd player in my car and have listened to it all weekcoming to work.

Point is, my top 100 varies all of the time and even my most favorite albums of my life sometimes fall off the list for a while.

Same with my favorite foods.   I currently have a major jones for asparagus.    But I'm sure I'll soon regain my preference for peas and carrots.  Sometimes I want a candy bar and sometimes pretzels.

I'll bet the Rolling Stone staff that compiles these lists would come up with different llineups every six months if given a blank slate and no reminder of previous lists.

Question.  Do record companies and music publishers buy their way onto these lists?

i'm certainly not complaining that SOMETHING ELSE is higher than VILLAGE GREEN, just making the point that what's better or worse changing to suit the tastes of RS, the masses, etc.  for the record, I love both albums

I'd guess they don't even have to.

In fairness to the RS Record Guide from 1978 (the red cover?), that book was probably the reason I walked to the record store as a kid and bought Village Green. It made me curious.  At the same time, I understood how flawed it was because of the lunacy of their Pet Sounds rating (was it really three stars? SHEESH!)

So if I read correctly, they had their future all-time greatest album and the runner-up both at three stars. Even as a kid I laughed at those two head-up-the-backside reviews.

I still remember a lot of the ratings, including five stars each for All Summer Long and Summer Days, both of which I had from early childhood, but it was a bit confusing because a lot of the Capitol truncated versions, sold as budget-priced LP two-fers, were also retitled at that time (and hideously re-covered). So Summer Days was California Girls (shrink-wrapped with All Summer Long, which therefore had its back cover on the front- and both in matching red). Today! was Dance, Dance, Dance- I think- packaged with Shut Down Volume II as Fun, Fun Fun.  Oddest of all, I had a truncated pressing of The Beach Boys In Concert (no "Johnny B. Goode, no "Wanderer") with a freaky cover parodying the iconic carrying-the-surfboard image and the title "Wow! Great Party!".

Endless Summer got five, needless to say.  Spirit Of America got four, I think- criminal if correct.

But I digress...again.

Back to the Kinks, I think they gave the prestigious five stars to Something Else, Kinks-Size, Face To Face, VGPS, and Lola Vs. Powerman, all hard to argue with. Four to Arthur, three (?) to Preservation Act 1...they had their instances of being grossly full of it, but they put me on to some really great stuff and got my curiosity going in a good way.

They called 15 Big Ones, I think it was, a"study of a worm on a hook"- an interesting phrase that I'm still trying to figure out three decades later.

Speaking of which, apologies to Luther, after rereading this thread.  I had misread a phrase as "I despise their talent", which just cracked me up for some reason.  He actually wrote "I despise them despite their talent."