The Smiley Smile Message Board

The history of the Beach Boys has been so over-analyized that it is hard to find the truth any more. I loved the group when I first became aware of them at 14 in 1973, just before In Concert came out (my first BB LP....still love it!). Then the stories about Brian and the band that started to surface around the time of 15 Big Ones I just kind of let slide by.

Then came David Leaf's wonderful book and the whole thing just turned for me. I was 19, had just quit my summer job and was looking for another when the book came out. I bought it and read it straight through in one night. I can still remember how utterly depressed I was afterwards. This group that had brought me so much joy in the last 5 years turned out to be such a bunch of evil people with poor Brian being "chained" in to doing things he didn't want to. They wouldn't let him free to soar. Then came Byron Preiss' book and I started to look at the group in a different way, sort of by their music only. That at least allowed my 19 year old brain to rationalize still going to see the group in concert.

Thirty years, numerous encounters with the group (yes even Mike) have lead me to believe that the answer to who did what in the group to whom is no longer relevant. Too much music was missed. There are things in th vaults that had they been released might have changed the groups fortunes. Had Brian been stronger, he might have retaken the group and steered it towards..........WHATEVER! It hurts too much to think that way. Because what we do have (I think) is a body of work from the entire group that is just about as good as it gets in the field of music, period. No other group fought like heel to stay going, towards advancing. And Brian's music will always be remembered as a work of genius. Whatever else happens, remember that.

But I do want to put my two cents worth of history in here:

1.) I now (after much agonizing thought) can finally state that I think SMiLE would NOT have made the impact that Brian had hoped for in 1967. Why? Two reasons. One - It's the Beach Boys...and while the world was taking a better look at the group, I still think we were so hotwired then to only believe that the Beatles, et al, could change things. And two - Brian and Van were writing about AMERICA...and NOBODY in  hip 1967 wanted to know anything about the USA. We were so evil then with the war in Vietnam, riots in the streets, etc that the kids would have said "are u crazy?"..where are the overt drug references that the Beatles and others were giving us? The Beach Boys would wrongly be held to a different standard.

2.) I think that Mike Love has done more good for the band then the fans want to give him credit for. And I know I sure as hell hate to give him credit. But it is due. The lyrics Mike wrote were head and shoulders above Tony Asher's for Good Vibrations. And his lyrics for Warmth Of The Sun, Kiss Me Baby, etc. Please. They are wonderful. Mike could have written the lyrics for Pet Sounds but I believe that he did not share Brian's vision of the band so Tony was brought in. And though Brian lost his way due to mental illness and drugs, I believe Mike has also lost his way. He has become convinced that he knows what the public wants from the group but is always proved wrong. No one wanted Summer In Paradise, but there it was. I think Mike has turned off that part of him that allowed him to write lyrics like Warmth because of all the crap that happened early on in the group. Murry not only took Mike to cleaners as far as lyrics, he did the same to Tony, Rich Alarian and on and on. Mike just happens to be the only one to fire back. He just does it badly. Mike deserves the rep he has gotten, but he also deserves the credit he hasn't.

3.) With the exception of David Anderle and Van Dyke Parks, I find the people from the SMILE period to be some of the most vacuous people I would ever want to encounter. Loren Darro. He is the guy NO ONE would want as a friend. He really seems like an evil person. I knew a guy in high school who like to spike people's drinks and watch what would happen for his own amusement. Loren seems like that kind of guy. And he thinks the LSD HE gave Brian turned him into artist! That is just his way of justifying the fact that he was no more that a drug pusher, thats all. What a waste of space. And the other from that time fair no better with me. Van Dyke has turned out to be another Mike Love but coming from a different direction. Mike Vosse? Lost in space.

Oh well, enough ranting. Just been reading posts and wanted to get this down.

Bob

I think you (as well as a lot of other folks...me included) are changing our relationship to music much the same way folks started to look at poetry differently in the early 20th century.

Up till then if you wanted to understand a poem or view its importance, you read a biography of the author.  Biographical interpretation.  Not necessarily bad, but not always right either.

Then came two movements.  One was out of the Chicago School of literary criticism. The other was the Agrarians of Vanderbilt.  Here is a quote from John Crowe Ransom's Wiki article "Ransom more or less founded the school of literary criticism known as the New Criticism, which gained its name from his 1941 volume of essays The New Criticism. This school, which dominated American literary thought throughout the middle 20th century, emphasized close reading, and criticism based on the texts themselves rather than on extraneous information. "

I usually try to apply the same thought to a lot of my musical listening...ie. a song's greatness (whatever that means) not relying on the artists biography, on what was produced before, or or what was produced afterwards.  What is the merits of that song.

I think biographical information can add to the enjoyment of an artists music, but should not  overbear the song.  And all this is based on what the listener brings to the song. 

The history is not relevant. It is just very entertaining.

That was an excellent post, petsite! I guess The Beach Boys' history is relevant, of course, to nuts like us who spend way too many hours pondering, writing about, and supporting the band. But, I also think The Beach Boys are an institution in music history, and, their "story" definitely has a place there. I wanted to address one of the topics you touched on:

I read David Leaf's book when it first came out, and I was fully engrossed in The Beach Boys' music at that time; that was basically all I listened to. I believed ALL of David Leaf's book then, and I still think it's the best Beach Boys' book out there. But there is one aspect of the book, and history, that has changed for me.

One of David's major themes was, that if the band/the family/the record company/the fans would allow Brian Wilson to "stretch out" and be allowed to create the music that was in his head - and that he wants to create - then he would compose/produce great things. I believed that, too.

I think it's fair to say, starting with The Boys Love You and continuing to the present day, that Brian Wilson was free to create just about anything he wanted to. The Beach Boys were dying for Brian to be productive and return to his prior creativity. They tolerated stuff like "TM Song", "Love Is A Woman", "Shortenin' Bread", and "I'm So Lonely", just buying their time, waiting for Brian to get better, waiting for the "serious" stuff to come. It never did.

Brian had the opportunity, in his solo career, to record all the things that he wanted, outside the constraints of The Beach Boys. The albums of new material that we got were Brian Wilson 1988, Imagination, and Getting In Over My Head. In Brian's solo years, he certainly surrounded himself with interesting and creative people, and hopes were high that maybe something would "rub off" on him, or motivate him to do great, NEW things.

Many people would probably say that BWPS, or a few isolated songs, justified or vindicated all of the hopes that people had for Brian after 1977, or after Love You, or after David Leaf's book.  I don't know. Maybe TLOS will be that piece...

This statement "I think it's fair to say, starting with The Boys Love You and continuing to the present day, that Brian Wilson was free to create just about anything he wanted to. The Beach Boys were dying for Brian to be productive and return to his prior creativity." is a little bit un accurate.  The truth is that the group wanted a certain kind of music from him...Mike clearly wanted commercial product and if Brian had a good idea great-but they were not encouraging him to make artistic statements or giving him control again.  The group sought Steve Levine and Terry Melcher as producers because they no longer believed in Brian's abilities to produce a hit record, which is what they wanted. I don't think any member of the group will tell you they were trying to create art after 1981...they were trying to make pop records that sold well and if Brian wanted to help with that cool...but they didn't sign checks for him to go in the studio and try to create whatever he wanted...He was forced to work with the constraints set by the group.  They were dying for him to write another Help Me Rhonda, but they weren't giving him the freedom to do anything.  They would say- we're going to record with The Fat Boys, do you want to come and contribute? That's a far cry from, go in the studio with the freedom you had in 1966 and lets see what happens. 

Who forced Brian? Who put constraints on Brian? By the group? Who in the group?

The Beach Boys Love You was the straw that broke the camel's back. Never again would Brian be trusted to produce the group without somebody overseeing the work (probably Mike and/or Carl). On that I will agree with you. That condition still exists today.

But I don't think Brian was being told or influenced to write certain music or a certain type of music. Who in the group would stand up to Brian Wilson when it came to songwriting? As I mentioned in my above post, there were some Brian Wilson-composed songs that appeared on Beach Boys' albums that shouldn't have been on there. But the guys were dying for ANYTHING from Brian. "Shortenin' Bread" is an example of anything. Who asked for that?   

The guys might've wanted 1965-66 type music. They might've wanted hits. And Brian might've felt pressured to deliver. But I believe the pressure was put on Brian, more by himself, than by others.

Why wouldn't Brian be trusted after The Beach Boys Love You? Backed by the right amount of marketing, that album could have been a hit. Also, they should have taken it a lot easier as they had already become such a huge concert draw by that time. Who gives a f*** about hit records? Just go into the studio and create whatever you want, people will love you anyway. By the way, I think by 1978 the Beach Boys had become just as unsupportive of Brian as they were of their very own individual talents.

The group tried constraining Brian several times...Pet Sounds, Smile, "Til I Die" (which they rejected and only accepted when they were desperate for material) are the examples that immediately come to mind.  Granted there were many times where Brian was able to include his songs, but as the 70's progressed, they began to trust him less and less and rejected more and more of his material.  As you said,"Love You" was really the straw that broke the camel's back.  After that, Brian's opinion was more or less meaningless...his only use to them was his name.  The group helped to kill "Adult Child", rejected "Mt. Vernon", and basically sent Brian a message that his contributions weren't welcome. 

It wasn't so much being told what to write as it was being told what NOT to write.

I also think that Brian was 'coasting' as Peter Carlin said of Brian in the late 1970's. He had worked enough he thought. Let the group go without him. He was writing just to himslef instead of the world. But Brian was also hurting tremedously from mental problems that weighed him down. Those problems contributed to those 'awful' songs in the late 70s (thinking of "A little something" etc). But Brian was also writing Night Bloomin Jasmine, so his talent has always been in tack.

I think the group would have gotten behind Brian had Brian been strong enough at the time to say "Hey, here is what we are going to do!" and then followed through. If he had had a vision and a group of great songs to take them there, they would have followed. Because while money may have been a motivating factor, the group ALWAYS believed in the music, even Mike. And if it was there, they would have gone. But it wasn't. Because Brian couldn't be there. Too many other things were sidetracking him. I first met Brian in 1979. He was "ok". The really got to talk to him in 1981. Holy S**t. I walked away so sad that it kept me up all night. Thank goodness my memories of him in person talking are now from the SMILE tour wher he was a joy!

Bob

The group tried constraining Brian several times...Pet Sounds, Smile, "Til I Die" (which they rejected and only accepted when they were desperate for material) are the examples that immediately come to mind. 

I think it's pretty obvious that while there was questions raised by Mike, Brian had full control over Pet Sounds and Smile and everyone worked pretty hard on those albums. Tiil I Die also has a great group effort and only in the dubious "autobiography" do we hear they didn't like it. Mike and Bruce even have done it live at least once, and it was one of the songs the Beach Boys brought with them to play on FM WPLJ I think in early 1971 to promot the Carnegie Hall show.

How many new songs did he contribute to Spring while producing them? I guess with his wife and sister and law there weren't creative constraints.

With Pet Sounds and Smile, Brian was obviously in control, but I was speaking more to the resistance from the group...i.e. "don't foda with the formula" during Pet Sounds and the even stronger reactions to Smile.  Without Brian leading the way, I'm sure they would have been just as happy to continue in the "California Girls" vein during that period.  Thankfully he was still strong at that point and the group came around on Pet Sounds (not to mention their excellent work on what exists of Smile).

With "Til I Die" I'm pretty sure that other sources (including the Carlin book) have confirmed that the group more or less flat out rejected the song initially, and only recorded it because they needed more material.  Maybe they did warm up to it eventually, but as depressing a song as it is, I can't imagine it was what they were hoping to get from Brian at that point. 

The Spring album has two new Brian compositions, three covers of already recorded Beach Boys songs, and seven other songs that were written by "songwriters" (Goffin/King etc).

Two ? I'm seeing one - "Sweet Mountain". "Good Time" was about two years old in 1972, and "Thinkin' 'Bout You Baby" hails from 1963. Brian lost interest in the Spring project very quickly - even Marilyn tacitly admitted as much to me. In essence it was mixed and produced by Sandler & Desper... but as Steve said, "5% of Brian Wilson is better than 100% of most other people" (or Bruce - "Brian has more talent in his pinkie than I have in my entire body").

What I was getting at- was that in the 1985-96 period the group was looking for commercial music.  In my opinion-and I think most people's- they made some very poor decisions at that time. Stars and Stripes being one of the biggest.  In 1993 at the time of the box set they had a chance to reassess- the decision was there- continue down the road with the cheerleaders etc- or create a more adult show-that recognizes we are more than just a 60s oldies act and have a rich catalogue. In line with the latter decision- make an album that is not just an attempt to make quick cash (Summer in Paradise anyone) but attempts to show that we are an important group of adults that still have something to say-lets reclaim our artistic legacy. They had the opportunity-they patched things up with Brian and also had Don Was-1995 was the year. But they decided not to go in that direction-Stars and Stripes was just another cash in- Now Brian and Joe Thomas are producing- but they are told in adavance-we are making this type of album and this is what we want.  So Brian was allowed to produce-but within those limited circumstances you weren't going to get another Pet Sounds or even a Brian Wilson (1988)..

If you believe Bruce, they were going out of their way to make Brian as part of the album as possible - to their audience and to Warner. "A Day in the Life of a Tree" was included! Funny that we never hear stories about this much wackier track being rejected by the band. And when we say "the band", we know we really mean Mike, Al and Bruce, right?  :-D

Paraphrasing Desper and the folk lore, Mike considered the lyrics "a downer", and suggested that a more optimistic/positive set would suit the song better. Brian did write new lyrics, but in the end recorded what was originally inteneded. And you have Mr. Michael Edwards Love singing "These Things I'll be until I Die" very clearly at the coda. Did Brian bull him into singing that line?  :) I think Til I Die was never in risk of being left off the album. The Beach Boys weren't discarding good Brian songs in 1971.

By the way, the recycling of "Surf's Up" was probably more distressing to Brian. But Van Dyke and Carl were behind that one, so the level of scrutiny is different.

Care to share your source for this statement ? First I've heard of it - Steve Desper specifically told me that the original lyric was substantially different.

I chequed it, and stand corrected.


Now, how does it adjust to our debate, I don't know.

I think the original words were found recently and were only slightly different. Alan Boyd can add something about this I think. Stephen Desper wrote in his book abd told me himself that everything stopped cold when Brian wanted to work and they all went out of their way to encourage him. I think actually using Surf's Up was their first big act against him, and then I know Carl didn't like Mt. Vernon at first though Mike did. I would say the Surf's Up argument was the turning point, before that what Brian wanted was highly valued. When Stephen was there from 67-71 he says the group was a pretty strong unit and I think the music of that period reflects that. I think the big thing that Mike felt in 1966 was resentment that he wasn't being used more as a writer, but I think that he supported the music overall. After all listen to his lyrics from the 18 months before Pet Sounds and you can see he is moving in that direction too.

My memory might be deficient on this, but I think the mildly alternate lyric was confined to the final line of the verse, viz:

"I found my way"

"It fills my soul"

... but back in 1985 SWD was adamant that the original lyrics - which were taped over - were significantly different and, as he said "much better".

Before I answer your question, let me say that, after SMiLE and Pet Sounds, Love You might be my favorite Beach Boys' album.

Your question is answered by the song "Solar System". That song might contain the worst lead vocal ever recorded by a major artist. The same could be said for "Let's Put Our Hearts Together". And the tag on "Roller Skating Child". And "Love Is A Woman". And so on. It's embarrassing. But, was Brian even aware of it? I don't know. And that was the problem.

New and longtime fans were thinking, "What the f----". These were the Beach Boys. This was Brian Wilson. Known for their unmatched vocals and harmonies; one of the main reasons fans loved the group in the first place. Those vocals made fair songs good, good songs great, and great songs classics.

Now it was going the other way. Good songs were obliterated by poor vocals. Love You never had a chance, regardless of the promotion. And the group saw their second chance, a golden opportunity, slipping away. Because they handed the reins back to Brian. It's a good thing Carl touched up Love You or who knows what it would've sounded like. And let me repeat that I love Love You.

The band lost momentum after Love You. It was the wrong album at the wrong time. But Brian was so out of touch with popular music at that time. He admitted that, while in bed the last few years, he rarely listened to the radio. The guys wanted Brian to succeed so much, that, in the end, it cost them. Brian never again had as much "power" in the group. But I still don't believe any member of the group ever - ever - got in the way of Brian's songwriting post 1977.

The first place I read about it was the Carlin book...lines like "It lifts me up" and "I've found my way", similar to what you said.  You're right, the changes were just at the end of the verses.  As Carlin's story goes, Brian changed them but the contradictions between the verses and those final lines were too obvious, so he changed them back. 

Desper's story is interesting, I've never heard that before.  I always thought that the "original" lyrics were what ended up being used, after rejecting the small changes.  As I don't know what Carlin's sources were, I'm inclined to trust Desper's story (although I can't imagine the lyrics being improved beyond what they ended up being).

Dancing Bear, you do make good points...the story changes a lot depending on who you ask it seems.  While I'm sure the group was happy to have new Brian material, at the same time, I doubt that "Til I Die" was what they were hoping for.  I think that the only reason they included it at all was because Brian wrote it, not necessarily because they liked it.  Again, it really all depends on whose story you believe. 

I agree with you on Love You. But Sheriff, what about It's Over Now, Still I Dream Of It, Life Is For The Living etc.. didn't some members of the band get in the way of these songs?

mikeyj, I don't think I'm making my point clear, and I have to take responsibility for that. What I'm saying is that I don't think anybody told Brian what to and what not to WRITE. I think he had complete freedom to go into the studio AT ANY TIME and record ANYTHING he wanted. Actually, I think they all would've been thrilled if he did that. I don't think there was anyone in the group/family/record company who was saying, "No Brian, you can't write that. You should be writing this". I think people were/are too afraid of Brian to do that. They might "monitor" his producing, talk him into doing another vocal take, of course write words for him, and suggest ideas/subject matter for songs. But when Brian has an idea for a song, I think everybody keeps their distance and lets him go. And that's how it should be.

Now, as far as those songs you mentioned above, not to sound SMiLE-like, but obviously HE GOT THE SONGS DONE. If you're talking about getting the songs released, that's a different animal. Brian and the Beach Boys have been getting songs and albums rejected since Sunflower! But, Brian had the idea to do these "Big band" songs, he wrote them, and he went into the studio and recorded them. Nobody said, "No, Brian, you can't do that". The record company (rightfully, in my opinion) rejected them. That's what I'm talking about when I mentioned Brian's producing being called into question. Those songs were hurtin' production-wise.

I recently read on this board that Mike Love didn't approve of the Big Band songs. I never heard that before. Not saying its not true, just never heard it. And, like I mentioned, Brian recorded them anyway.

I get what you're saying Sheriff, thanks for clearing up any confusion.  You are absolutely correct in that nobody was telling Brian what to write/not to write.  I think they all held onto the hope that if Brian went into the studio, he might come out with their next huge hit.  As time went by, that possibility dwindled down to about zero, but at least up until "Love You" I'm sure they kept hoping for it.  Whenever he wanted to do something during that period, I have no doubt they were all ears, even if they ddin't necessarily like what they got.

As for the Big Band songs, I think I initially read that Mike didn't like them in the Carlin book, and it makes sense.  Stuff like "It's Over Now" and "Still I Dream of It" were pretty depressing, even by Brian's standards.  Mike probably felt that they were just more of what he liked to call Brian's "ego music".  The fact that they had zero commercial appeal probably didn't help matters either. 

Okay Sheriff, I see what you're saying. Sorry about the confusion!! I agree with most of what you said though. As for Mike not approving the big band songs, well I don't know what/who to believe anymore!! I do remember reading it somewhere in a book (not that that means anything), just can't remember which one.

Mike was away when he recorded those Adult Child Big Band songs, and it was a 1988 Brian interview (don't remember which one) where I read him saying that Mike thought he was f---ing around. I assume Mike was turned off most by Life Is For The Living as it is kind of crazy. The only other song I know of that Mike didn't like was Old Man River, and I think it was mainly because Brian kept working on it obsessively. In that case I bet Mike  wanted to do of Brian's new songs instead. Remember he was still writing a lot through 1970.

ION and SIDOI were far from the worst offenders in the track list, if you analyse the album through a 1977 commercial viability filter. In the inner politics situation of mid-late '77, I can see how "Adult Child" might have been vetoed by Mike'n'Al. But we shouldn't discard the notion of Warner shouting "What the F*ck?!?" while listening to the master.

Mike may have had doubts but I think it was Warner's who ultimately decided it would not come out.

I am glad this thread sparked some great comments. I remember listing to our TOP 40 station here in Houston when LOVE YOU was released. The disc jockey had been a friend of Brian's in  LA before coming here so he loved the music. So what track did he play to listeners on his big Friday night show? "Lets Put Our Hearts Together". The guy loved the track. And the listeners called in complaining about who the f was that? He would go on to play it over the next couple of weeks until management told him to stop. But the guy introduced me to Brian and I will always be grateful.

I only wish that the love Brian has from fans today (read younger) was there in the 1970's. It sure was lonely back then!

Bob

Is that just referring to the lyrics at the end of the verses or the entire thing?...what could be better than 'I'm a cork on the ocean'??

The whole thing, was my impression.

Wow don't supppose we'll ever know what they were...just like we'll never hear how Surf's Up part II sounded at the original SMiLE sessions...or what the vocal sessions for Look/I Ran entailed.

Thanks Mr Doe.

I think it has to be stated though-that is a subjective opinion.  I happen to think, and many agree, the song is pretty perfect as is. My opinion though is irrelevant.  Steve Desper is a supremely talented engineer-but I don't think he'd suggest that he is a talented songwriter. It's irrelevant what his opinion is about song lyrics.  Brian wrote it and if he likes the other lyrics, who is really qualified to second guess him.  Even Carl-with all due respects to his vocal talents, never matched Brian's songwriting ability-nor did he ever suggest that he did. So is Carl's opinion worth more than Brians either?  Brian may have had personal problems at the time-but he was still quite capable of being in sound mind about what was good.

Exactly. If "'Til I Die" contained lines like "I have a friend named Bob; he has a job", I would be mourning the so-called "better" lyrics. But the lyrics to the released version of "Til I Die" are the best Brian ever wrote on his own and are among the best lyrics the Beach Boys ever vocalized in my opinion. Perfection, really, in terms of consistency of metaphor and theme.

Can you get much better than, "I'm a cork on the ocean, floating over the raging sea"? Not in my opinion.