The Smiley Smile Message Board

Well, we all know Summer In Paradise was left to go out of print, and none of its tracks are ever included on even the most extensive compilations and best-ofs...But I was surprised to find no mention of it on the band's official website timeline! (The timeline just skips from the release of 'Still Cruisin'' in 1989 to the Good Vibrations boxset in 1993.)

So my question to you more knowledgeable fans is whether Mike has commented on the album in recent years? Does he view it as the embarrassment it categorically was, or does he still defend it? I'd also be interested in reading anything Brian may have said about it.

From what I can see, everyone seems to be pretending it never happened.

Last time I looked, they didn't even mention Carl's death. Maybe it's just inaccuracy (if that is spelled like this)

You know, Summer in Paradise was just not a good album from a commercial point of view.

What never happened?

The "official" website is Capitol's website for the BBs. SIP wasn't a Capitol product, iirc. They might be more inclined to list their own product.

Well its obvious they believed in lp at the time cause i saw them  play half dozen songs from this + the live versions were BETTER than lp versions.. 1992 Costa Mesa....Summer in Paradise was in the set list till CW died...Do they still play it..??..I can listen to it BUT.. It needs a couple of Al + Carl songs + drop a couple of oldies....Im one that doesnt hate the lp.. Its just average to me...

What did they play besides SIP, Boardwalk, Surfin' and Hot Fun?

I have never heard it (I'm not willing to shell out the money it goes for on EBay...if it went for what Still Crusin' goes for , I'd get it. [I got that for just $3.] but I do think it is a little odd that they don't mention it. That'd be like Dylan not having the lyrics for "Knocket Out Loaded" on his website.

Sweet Insanity was better than SIP, but not my much.

i thought summer in paradise is a pretty good album i love still surfin the drum beat and it reminds me of their earlier days and i like what bruce did with one summer night/slow summer dancing

The 'final' Velvet Underground album 'Squeeze' fronted by Doug Yule has been erased from history pretty effectively.  Until recently the last Clash album 'Cut the Crap' was also effectively forgotten.

I think that if a record becomes out of print, and there's no one with enough passion or even monetary interest to get it out into the public again, then indeed - the album is effectively forgotten.  It's certainly difficult to discover something that isn't being sold anymore, and that didn't create a big impact in its own time.

If it weren’t for the quality of POB, as well as its cult status, would anyone give a damn? 

There's not always a deliberate move to erase records from history - but sometimes I think it's even harder to keep selling some in particular.

Still Surfin' is a favorite of mine as well. It's obviously not Heroes And Villains and it may be a pathetic nostalgia fest, but still...
The faux Brian falsetto sounds brilliantly sad!

....Walking in the Sand  was one..Maybe it was 5... But i keep thinkin"" forever "" also but im not positive..john stamos was at that concert..

I liked Carl's vocal on that "Lahaina" song. God, I hate admitting it.

Last time I saw the "Beach Boys" in concert was 1993. I took my dad to a race track first his birthday to see the Beach Boys. They did "Forever," "Hot Fun" and "Summer in Paradise." In fact, I think they may have finished with "SIP."

I'm a fan of "Squeeze." I love Doug Yule's songwriting. There was also an old interview where Doug admitted that some of those tunes he'd been playing and rehearsing with Lou Reed on tour back to 1970. I mean, neither Lou nor Doug are claiming that Lou deserves publishing there, but it clearly came out of the VU mindset, and years spent playing that type of music. Shame no one can look past the obvious set-backs and just see it as good music.

Can't say the same for SIP, in terms of quality, but one Capitol reissue amongst an LP reissue series would be a good idea. I've never been one for denying history. The marketplace dictates, though.

You don't have to hate admitting it. All of Carl's vocals on SIP are excellent. Actually, I think it's one of his best Beach Boys' albums vocally.

It's a shame Brian and Carl didn't contribute any songs to the project. That's my biggest disappointment, that two Beach Boys didn't write any songs for a new Beach Boys' album. And that Brian chose to not even show up.

I was arguing recently on another board that Squeeze is nowhere near as bad as its reputation. It's not particularly good, either, but it's a nice-at-times rock 'n' roll album. But it's one of those things that people just get caught up in (I'd guess at times without even hearing it, and certainly not hearing it fairly), "oh, yeah, Yule did a post-Reed album and it's an offense to the VU name," blah blah, as if Reed didn't put out a TON of sh*t on his own--some worse than Squeeze, in my opinion. In my opinion, you could play Squeeze for people who had no idea what it was and just say "it's an unknown album from the early 70s ... what do you think?" I'd guess people would be more apt to start giving it 2-3 stars out of 5, whereas if you'd ask people who know the general story the same thing, you'd get 0-1 stars.

As for those late BBs albums, it's the opposite. I think people actually give them extra credit just because they're the BBs and fans desperately want them to be good. But jesus, SIP, 85, etc ... just terrible. Atrocious. Really, really, really bad.

Agreed, Luther. I always get a kick out of reading Beach Boys fanzines, because it doesn't matter what is happening in the real world, or if Nirvana did something earth shattering. To read those things, you'd swear that "Somewhere in Japan" was a lost masterpiece. All in good fun.

"Squeeze" doesn't sound like VU, and good that it doesn't. Band moniker aside, you're right... good early '70s classic rock album, with some flourishes reminiscent of "Loaded"'s more neck-beard moments, sonically.

Half of Squeeze's songs are kind of good, the rest is forgettable but not offensive. The sameness in Doug's voice and guitar/bass/keyboards playing doesn't help. I wish it was reissued with the same cover, but replacing 'Velvet Underground' for 'Doug Yule'. It's listenable and at times great fun.

That's a good way to put it. And you know, how many bands out there wish they could attain that status? I know that's probably nobody's life goal, but the fact is most bands are nowhere near good enough to have an album of half ok and have unoffensive songs. I know that in wading through material t review, I'm sometimes astonished at how terrible some music is that people really want to have reviewed. Squeeze is nowhere near that bad. It's just also nowhere near as good as the rest of the VU catalogue.

Yeah, it's forgettable, and classic rock is amongst my least favorite genre. I wouldn't even  have given "Squeeze" a chance were it not for the band name. But I've put it on and mellowed out to it more than a few times. It's got about the same listenability, for me, as the Honk soundtrack to "Five Summer Stories," a hippy surfing film from 1971 that the Beach Boys had half the songs in. The soundtrack, however, is all Honk, a totally average classic rock group that, I believe, recorded that and one other album at Brother Studios.

That post made me decide we need a classic rock thread in the General Music Discussion forum. That way, I can commiserate with you in our shared non-love of classic rock.

Hehehehehe.

I've actually become much more tolerant of classic rock as the years have gone by. Being around the music of the Ramones and the Cramps for as long as I have been made me extremely unreceptive to the Jackson Browne's of the world. Yet, as I get older, I find myself perhaps less cynical, and actually like a lot of the lyrics from that period.

It's just, you know, when it comes to live albums, well, give me "Beach Boys in Concert" and the Ramones' "It's Alive" over "Frampton Comes Alive!" any day of the week.

And to the topic of "Summer in Paradise"... well, there's a million things wrong with it... but in it's inane stupidity, and long outdated yacht rock smoothness (the cover painting being the REAL kicker)... at least the album is unpretentious. I mean, part of the allure, for me, of the Beach Boys is their campiness.

I certainly love their experimental stuff, and probably cherish that the most. But the early years are amazing. And the post-"Smile" years hold a special place for a lot of people. After "Love You," it runs the gamut from this faux-spirituality, which I find boring, to a lot of dumbed-down attempts to re-capture the sound of their youth. I know Carl had a spiritual voice, but I can hardly stomach things like "Heaven" or any of those songs he did with Beckley and Lamm. Ugh. But part of the allure of Mike Love is that he's such a bozo rock 'n' roll clown. I can't tell if I like it because he's more unaware of the camp than Joey Ramone, but listening to Mike Love solo is a barrel-full-of-laughs. There's a "Shut Down" sax solo vibe that Mike never lost. I give him credit for keeping it simple. Just wish he might have gotten out of the way a bit more when it came to Brian making music that wasn't as simple.

Actually if there is one released post 1980 song that deserves to be known it's that one.

I think it's absolutely awful.

It is actually 3, right? Carl, Brian AND Al (who also barely showed up, unfortunately) failed to write for SIP, unless you count Surfin'.  I have always held that SIP was saved by Carl and Al's vocals.  To add to SJS, may be the best vocal work for EITHER of them. 

as a fan of 80s music and bands like survivor and journey I think the BB stuff in the 80s and early 90s is good. I really like the 85 album but most people don't like that era

I like that era, and I love synthesizers and drum machines. Just not much for stadium rock.

brianc, there was a thread a little while back - started by me - about "salvaging" SIP. So, if you've read this before, just click on the next topic.... Addressing your first point, I feel 4-5 songs from Brian and a couple from Carl would've gone a long way in making SIP a good album. Mike is consistently criticized for SIP, which is ironic, because it might be among his best albums. He did his job, co-writing (with Terry Melcher) "Island Fever", "Still Surfin", "Strange Things Happen", "Lahaina Aloha", and "Summer In Paradise". Those are good songs, not great, but good.

What Mike needed was some help from the two Wilsons to compliment his songs. People have posted that Mike didn't want help, or rejected songs, but I've never read/heard anything from Brian or Carl to substantiate that. If Brian would've offered something like "You're Still A Mystery", or if Carl would've submitted something like "Like A Brother", do you really think Mike would've said, "Nah, I'll pass...". I don't think so.

And, brianc, in addressing your second point.... With the possible exception of a three month period in late 1966 (which is debatable because Mike did contribute excellent work), can you give me an example of when Mike Love got in the way of Brian making music that wasn't simple?

The only other time Mike didn't seem to like something was the Big Band session.

If anyone wanted to be really honest, Imaginations is not any better then SIP. I think that its simply the fact that Brian wrote Imaginations and Mike wrote SIP, people autimatically asume its better.

Although lyrically, they may have a point. But musically, its just as good.

Of course since Mike mainly wrote the awful lyrics and Brian mainly wrote the music, doesn't help Mikes cause. But Terry Melcher's music in the 90s seems as good as much of Brian's in the 90s.

Imagination does obviously not contain a single song as atrociously bad as Summer of Love. That said, Sunshine probably comes pretty close...

In my book, both Still Surfin' and Lahaina Aloha (which I prefer over Kokomo) are very decent songs and there's quite a few more that are nowhere near as bad as the record's reputation (Strange Things Happen, for instance). Still, the whole thing reeks of mid-nineties Baywatch bullmerda and some of the songs sound downright soulless and contrived.

I'd give Imagination a 7/10 and SIP a 4/10.

I heard a rumor that Brian burned the SIP tapes... :lol

Agreed, Imagination is far better than SIP. Just 'Lay Down Burden' on a loop for half an hour would kick the sh*t out of SIP.

Imagination is clunky, but well-intended. Summer In Paradise is just an embarrassment.
Back to my original question - does anyone have any quotes from Mike or Brian on the album?  ???

**And, brianc, in addressing your second point.... With the possible exception of a three month period in late 1966 (which is debatable because Mike did contribute excellent work), can you give me an example of when Mike Love got in the way of Brian making music that wasn't simple?**

I have no recorded evidence, of the type like the 1965 Murry/Brian studio fight... no. Only Mike's comments over the years about not liking Van Dyke's lyrics on "Smile," thinking that "Pet Sounds" the album would alienate their fanbase, and of course, the TV movie Mike made back in 2001. His feelings about 1966-67 has been crystal clear. He gave Brian his chances, in the end, but not without putting up resistence. We don't know the extant of it, but Mike has admitted it, so has Marilyn, Brian, Carl and everyone else involved with "Pet Sounds" and "Smile," including their lyricists. Go back through your Beach Boys documentaries from the '80s and '90s and check out the sections relating to those two albums. The interviewees do not mince words.

Hey, you forgot the H&V's rant.  ;)

"The TV movie Mike made".... While it's clear where you see Mike's ego entering the script - him saving the day etc - it's absolutely not a Mikefest. What about the wife beating? And he'd NEVER write into the script that he refused to sing the "Geronimo lyrics". The guy had a work ethic, if he disagreed with something in a band he was part of, he voiced his opinion, but in the end of the day he got the work done. After all, it's him singing in Cabinessence.

"The extant of it" will always be debatable, because for a start the world going around Brian wasn't the healthiest environment. And yes, Mike had his share in the craziness. Something about the hability to make rational decisions that plagued every Beach Boy. Anyway, I don't think Brian gave a crap about what Mike thought or felt, or he'd have cleaned up the songwriting credits mess himself. He fired Murry when it suited him.

Imagination lp is in same league as SIP...??? Please you must be kidding.. If your serious please listen again..!!

The difference between SIP and Imagination is that one I downloaded, listened to twice and deleted, the other I bought, listened to twice and gave away.

I like the song Hot Fun but I find the BB version hard to take.   That stupid digital/dance rhythm, the thin production, the lack of decent BB harmony, ...................great song....good cover choice........terible recording.

All  in all, the album reminds me of a cross between a ML album mated with MIU and a Bruce tune or two.

Damn shame when you stilll had all the ingredients for a good album;  Carl Wilson, Brian Wilson, harmony, good songs in the can, great covers to choose from, and to toss off that thing instead?????

Choose the response you prefer.

1. I'm glad you pointed out my dishonesty, because I wasn't aware of it. I'm forever in your debt.

2. Imagination is pretty bad, largely because of the production; SIP is flat-out atrocious for every reason except maybe some vocal performances. "Your Imagination" alone--for all its cheese--makes Imagination an album that deserves to exist. SIP has no corresponding song. Add that Imagination has solid songs like Cry, Lay Down Burden and She Says That..., and it's not even remotely close. Again, I don't even really like Imagination much, but it's still not close. SIP is laughably bad. Really, very funny. It sounds like it was a joke. It's fucking garbage. Imagination, that's just unfortunate.

 I keep hearing this 'poor production' thing about "Imagination".  I'm no audio expert but it sounds really, really good on my iPod!

I am not a Mike Love fan in any way!  But I think Mike did the very best he could writing and putting an album together.  I think of SIP as a Mike Love solo album with Bruce, Carl and Al helping out.

The issue is more taste than technical quality. The album has a very late 80s adult contemporary sound to it (funny, considering it came out in the late 90s). There are those atmospheric keyboard sounds rather than traditional instruments--or even interesting, jagged burbling synths, a la Love You. There are suddenly nylon-string guitars, and little electric guitar noodlings. There is cheesy reverb-to-eternity on the drums. None of it sounds like the sort of thing one would expect from Brian Wilson, first of all, and regardless of who did it, it's just so tasteless. It's sugary. Syrupy. Over-the-top. Obvious. It brings to mind lite-metal power ballads or Celine Dion more than the man who some people think is the greatest producer ever.

So it's not to my taste. If it's to yours, lucky you.

I already admitted Mike's displeasure with SMiLE (that's MY quote you're addressing BTW), so the only other example you gave of Mike's "getting in the way" of Brian's making music that wasn't simple would be Pet Sounds - and I don't agree with you. Mike would've had to do it through the mail or over the telephone because The Beach Boys were on tour for much of the recording of Pet Sounds. Also, having listened to the Pet Sounds boxed set several times, I don't believe I ever heard Brian mention Mike Love's name while recording the tracks. Was Mike there, getting in the way?

Mike did object to the lyrics of one song, "Hang On To Your Ego", and I believe they were changed for the better. Mike also wrote the ending lyrics to "Wouldn't It Be Nice", which I think are a nice addition to the song. Is that what you mean by "getting in the way"? If Mike didn't get in Brian's way during the making of Pet Sounds, how much differently do YOU think it would've sounded?

1992

What is 1992? Imagination came out in '98.

Sorry, Luther. That's what I get for reading posts in reverse order. I thought you were referring to the release date of SIP. Lost my head again.... :police:

In a perfect world, Brian Wilson would have released the Wilson/Paley sessions with or without the Beach Boys in 1996, and followed it up with his own production of "Imagination." Unfortunately, the former sits dormant, while the latter sounds like an adult contemporary mess.

The Wilson/Paley sessions have the right balance of Brian Wilson introspection and quirkly slice-of-life songs, while "Imagination," lyrically, is very optimistic. I like some of those songs very much, but not even one of the productions sounds good.

Any Aussies able to answer my SIP question?
I happened to be at the BB concert in Brisbane in the early 90s and prior to the show various BB tracks (several eras) were being played over the address system. Then 'Island Fever' was played and the audience started applauding and cheering! I thought WTF?

Did that track get some airplay locally, or even in Australia?