The Smiley Smile Message Board

Probably a topic that's been covered, but I must have missed it.

It always struck me as strange that although D Leaf used the boxed set opportunity to release a number of Smile tracks, including Wonderful, Wind Chimes, Do You Like Worms and Love to say Dada, one other key track then available - Child is Father of the Man - wasn't on it. 'Fire' I can understand as it was said at the time that had he requested its inclusion, Brian/BB would have pulled the whole lot. Similarly, 'Look' and others - relatively incomplete. Am I right in thinking that Child is the only original and major Smile song not to have had an official release (BWPS aside)?

There's "Barnyard" and "I'm In Great Shape" unless you count the Humble Harve "Heroes" preview as a release, "Old Master Painter/Sunshine" and then the ones you mentioned like "Look," "Child Is Father,""Holidays," and "Fire."

Brian wanted nothing to do with the SMiLE stuff on the GV box set. David Leaf had to work at convincing Brian that the stuff should be on the collection.

Wasn't there mention here some time ago that CITFOTM was considered for the Hawthorne CA comp?  I'm thinking someone said a stereo mix of the BW '66 backing track edit was prepared.

I don't think there was a stereo remix done, but the original 3 minute mono mix of the CITFOTM backing track was under consideration for HAWTHORNE, CA.

Given that the GV box set is an overview of the Beach Boys entire career, I'm surprised as much SMiLE material made it on there. As much as I love it, one does get the feeling that Disc 2 is taking a pretty long detour into previously unreleased material.

I think CIFOTM was considered for "Endless harmony" but I could be wrong

At the time of the boxed set Brian was still very touchy and freaked out by all things Smile - the decision was to try to put Smile versions of previously released Beach Boys song on the box set, so it wouldn't freak out Brian as much.   Brian had to approve the track list and in essence Leaf et al were kind of "putting one over" on him because he sees Wondeful, Wind Chimes, Heroes and nothing rings alarm bells.  At Dominic's insistence, I believe, Worms was put on the list, and Dada - and Brian approved it to the relief of all concerned although I understand it took some convincing.

I think half of the deal was making sure that Brian wouldn't give an interview the next week complaining that the Smile tracks in the box set were included against his wishes.

Main reason the "CIFTTM" track wasn't on the 1993 box is because it wasn't discovered until the research for Endless Harmony... during which the master for "Battle Hymn..." was also located (and i've told that tale so often, I'll not bore you with it again).

I haven't heard it Mr Doe...What is Battle Hymn?

Sam

Only the single greatest Beach Boys recording ever!

(That or proof that not everything unreleased is some lost gem...)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord -- EVERYBODY, SING ALONG.

The recording of "Battle Hymn Of The Republic" is possibly the best gag Brian ever pulled on Mike. The whole song is taken at just too fast a lick for Mike to sing comfortably... OK, to draw breath, actually.  ;D

Not forgetting the world's worst recorded banjo solo, of course...

???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QrzZPXe0pU

Is there a reason Child didn't end up on EH? Or later on Hawthorne?

if BW was having trouble accepting Smile tunes getting released...at least the ones they did release were in the right order....imagine trying to put that CITFOTM together....everyone thought the piano part started it...now on BWPS, the piano part is the ending...I'm sure Brian didn't want to deal with putting that stuff together

Any idea how the sound quality is on the vintage mono mix of CITFOTM?  The reason I ask is the version in circulation is such poor quality. Is there a tape source in the vault that has the chorus vox?

I always thought there were a few bad edits of the Smile stuff on the boxset. Vega-tables comes to mind.

On the subject of the 1993 Smile songs on the box set, what's the story with the speed problems on Do You Like Worms?

Technically, the three minute track edit has a similar BWPS setup. Not totally similar, but similar. It also has the piano near the end.

The circulating version is sourced from a late '66 acetate, on which Brian had a few other things of note, like a late '66 edit of DYLW with some different vocals during the "Hawaiian" section.

I had heard that Mark Linett swore that he didn't edit Vegetables or DYLW and found those versions as is, but did edit the extended H&V. ???

Well Vega-Tables sounds a bit akward and Andrew's book says the last part is a section of Wonderful so I assumed it was an edit for the box. None of the boot versions I heard sound that way which I guess doesn't mean much.

Yeah that last section was most definitely edited on for the box...I love that section as a part of Vega-Tables, but it would surprise me if it was actually cut for Vega-Tables.  I could hear it being a section cut for Wonderful, since it is very similar to the "hey bop a-re bop" section on Smiley.

But consider this:  the ambience on that "fade-out" section is definitely that of Gold Star, rather than Western or Sound Recorders, and there was a Vegatables tracking session at Gold Star (on April 12th '67, followed by a vocal session at Sound Recorders later that day), but no Wonderful sessions were held there...

Things is, that fade is another variation on the Bicycle Rider theme!  Wasn't eh tale that David Leaf had it edited on to Veggies as a surreptitious way of getting more SMiLE material released officially under Brian's nose? To my ears it had nothing to do with Veggies and the fact that it resembles the mid-section of Smiley Veggies was DL's excuse for sneaking it on to the SMiLE version.

'Course, recycling riffs between songs and even between movements would not have been out-of-the-question for SMiLE.  :)

That's what David told me in a conversation about the box back in the 90s - to get more Smile stuff on the set without paying out any more in mechanicals. Mark is doubtless correct in saying that he didn't edit "Vegetables" - but someone else sure as hell did.  :-D

Correction: I meant  to say: "the fact that it resembles the mid-section of Smiley Wonderful was DL's excuse for sneaking it on to the SMiLE version"...

I remember asking on this board if that last section of Vegetables actually was originally intended for it as it sounds so out of place, and the response was fairly unanimous that Brian did record it to be part of Vegetables. IIRC the evidence was that it was found on a vegeatbles tape box or something. So am I now to understand that david Leaf just shoe-horned that section 3 in from another song - possibly Heroes or Wondeful, to get more Smile material on the box? Can anyone clarify where that Vegetables section 3 actually should go?!

Wasn't this section listed on the original tape box as "Vegetables Fade"?

Yes I think that's what I remember being told when I previously asked about it. It seems unlikely to me that david Leaf would get somebody to edit part of another song on to vegetables to get more smile material on the box - seems a bit arbitrary to me. Surely it's more likely that they edited the fade on to vegetables because they believed it to be the actual fade to that song (despite its incongruity to the rest of the song).

Be that as it may, that's what exactly what he told me in 1993.  But then, what would he know - he's only one of the producers of the set.

Of course, the other possibility is that I'm fabricating said conversation.

There's no need for sarcasm -  I was saying that editing part of a different song in to vegetables would be arbitrary. I wasn't claiming that you fabricated anything. As far as I can tell you don't say directly that David claimed to have shoe-horned part of a different song on to Vegetables - just that he wanted to get as much smile material in there as possible, so my post doesn't contradict your recollection, unless David told you "yes we stuck part of Wonderful on the end just to get as much Smile material on the box as possible." Vegetables doesn't need that fade - it does sound out of place. So the decision to stick it on the end could have been entirely in the spirit of maximising the Smile portion of the box, as David told you. Anyway I'm not you so I have no idea exactly what he said - what did he tell you exactly?

If it were as simple as just including more Smile material, and the tag actually belonged to Wonderful, whay would he not just have added it on to Wonderful?

I asked David why the tag of "Vega-tables" was pretty obviously a variation on the "Wonderful" riff, and he replied that it was cross-faded into it to sneak a little bit more of Smile onto the box without having to pay any more mechanicals (which is also, btw, why every track on disc 5 turns up somewhere else on the box).

I think if I've explained - twice - why the tag was there and apparently had said explanation questioned entitles me to a little mild sarcasm.  ::)

But Doe, my gut tells me to doubt that the "Vege-tables" tag was placed there arbitrarily. And the gut has more nerve endings than the brain, plus the most blood flow. And if you doubt that, think about it from your gut...

So, the "Vege-tables" tag was put there by Brian. End of story.

Bold statement in a Smile thread. Kudos. :)

Well I think the coincidence of it being labelled Vegetables Fade on a tape box, and its inclusion as the fade to Vegetables on the boxset entitles me to question the validity of any claim that it was actually part of Wonderful. As Jeff point out, why not edit it onto Wonderful where it allegedly belonged? You were just questioning another historian's recollection of events in another thread (the redwood, Brian in tears episode) and now I'm questioning yours - not directly challenging mind - just questioning. Surely it's all part of the process?

On the topic of this Fade To Vegetables, does anyone know if the "radio spot" that appears on the Hawthorne CA release is Brains work, or the work of who ever put together the compilation?  The box set Vegetable fade provides the back ground music for the chants and skits.  If this was a production circa 1967 then it would lend weight to the idea that the Vegetable fade music was at least considered part of the Vegetables family of fragments.  I for one am not convinced that the Vegetables fade had anything to do with Wonderful until it was put to use in the Smiley Smile version, which by the way, also has the Bicycle Rider melody running through it on the piano.  I would love to be convinced, however.

The Fade to Vegetables has a lot in common with the fade to the Cantina version of Heroes and Villains (plus other versions of this music), with Bicycle Rider, with the second section of the box set version of Wind Chimes, with Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, with He Gives Speeches, and with the backing  music to a few version so Do A Lot.  There was definitely a theme at work here.

The "radio spot" is fake, it uses segments from a profanity-ridden 25 minute tape of Brian, Michael Vosse, and Hal Blaine bullshitting about vegetables over the track of the fade.

This might help, but so much has happened since 1994, it might not.

In an interview with ESQ in September of 1994 regarding the box set Mark Linett said, "…Anything that we were trying to present as some kind of representation of an original that we don't have… Somewhere there must have been an accurate mix of 'Vega-Tables' in some form. All that work that represents 'Vega-Tables' was done in one day, as far as I can tell. And I'm sure Brian did a mix to represent that so that he could listen to it. It ain't here, and it ain't been bootlegged, so where is it?"

Maybe that fade on the boxed-set "Vegetables" was added by SOMEBODY other than Brian, but I hope it wasn't David Leaf. Not that I'm jumping to conclusions, or blaming him, but this would be the David Leaf, who's book, The Beach Boys And The California Myth, is loaded with insinuatons about people (especially Mike Love) messing with Brian's artistic vision. If Brian didn't add that fade on the boxed-set, and David Leaf supported it, wouldn't that be hypocrisy of the highest degree?

Do I get the feeling that whenever anyone questions you on anything, you're insulted?

Nope - only when they ignore my answers or explanations. Twice.  ;D

Gotcha 8)

Here are links to earlier discussions involving Fade to Vegetables:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2726.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,2726.0.html)

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5024.0.html (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,5024.0.html)

Thank you Jeff for these references.  Have you or anyone else found a good was to search the many pages of this message board?  When I post I am always worried I am just rehashing something from 3 years ago.  There is a real treasure trove of info in these pages.

Try the "Search" function at the top of the page!  8)

Ba-dum-CHING. :)

I agree with Black Tiger that the search function is very useful.  I'd also say that it's best not to be afraid of bringing up things that were discussed in the past, b/c knowledge of Smile, amazingly, is still evolving.  It wasn't that long ago that people still thought Holidays = Tones.  So questioning the established wisdom can be a good thing...

The "fade to Vege-tables" tag flows beautifully to my ears, even if it's not completely in synch
with the rest of the song, and if it really was in a tape box originally labeled "Fade to Vegetables"
that's pretty powerful evidence, if indeed that was what the box said.

It sounds plausible that even if Leaf's motivation was to get more Smile material on the box without
paying the "mechanicals" that goal may have dovetailed nicely with his or the actual editor's belief
that it was originally indended for the end of that song, and was restored there, or Brian's edit in-
cluding it was located for inclusion.

My "gut" tells me that it belongs there also. ???

I'm merely recounting what David Leaf, who co-produced the box, told me in late 1993, in a phone conversation, in response to my direct query. Many people have issues with him - myself included - but I've known him for years and don't doubt his integrity in these matters. Plus, if it truly was "Fade To Vega-tables", the mechanicals problem wouldn't have arisen as he could have very reasonably claimed it was merely another section of the same song. That's my side of the story.  :)

PS: it's not an edit, it's a cross-fade... and I don't recall Brian using that anywhere else in Smile. Or, indeed, anywhere else... unless someone's memory is better than mine (not difficult, I'll confess).

So if you explain something twice does that make it an indisputable fact? Since when has the board functioned in that way?

Don't get me wrong, AGD, I've benefited more than a few times from your BB-related knowledge for which I am grateful, but you have to allow for doubters when you drop some choice Smile 'fact' that flies in the face of all available evidence. Peter Reum came on the board and stated that Brian told him in the 80s that Smile was going to be in 3 movements very similar to BWPS. Beautiful though the theory was, not everyone snapped it up as historical truth. Why? Because there was strong evidence to the contrary, and Brian clearly contradicts himself. Leaf isn't infallible either - after all, wasn't he responsible for spreading the theory that Heroes Intro belonged to Fire? So perhaps he made a mistake when he told you that Veg fade belonged to Wonderful. Or perhaps not. I'm not sure but surely I have a right to question that, whether you state it two or  two-thousand times?

I'm still surprised at the underwhelming response/reaction to the OFFICIAL RELEASE of those SMiLE tracks on the 1993 boxed set. You also didn't really read/hear too much about them when Brian was re-recording them in 2003-04. With Disc 2 and 3 of the boxed set, you can compile a pretty representative SMiLE mix - by The Beach Boys.

If you're going to quote me, please do it accurately: I never said that David told me that the tag belonged there, because he never said that to me. Entirely the contrary, in fact. What he did say (once more) was that the tag as it appears on the 1993 box is there because it was included to get more the material of that era on the box without exceeding the budget. David co-produced the project: he made the decisions along with Mark & Andy. If he'd used a tape called "Fade to Vegetables" less than a year previously, I think he'd remember it rather than make up some tale about mechanicals. You have every right to question that, because all you have to go on is my word, just as I've questioned Chuck Negron's story of Mike reducing Brian to tears, and also, incidentally, what Brian told Peter in the early 80s regarding the 3rd movement (frankly, I think it's nonsense, as does someone else I asked who was a lot closer to the action at the time). That's how we get to rewrite the books.

Oh yeah, the search function right in front of my nose.  I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed!

You can't entirely trust the search function on here. Unfortunately it doesn't search as well as something like Google, I wish someone would code a much better search algorithm for the SMF board. If you don't find what you want through our board's search, I recommend you use Google. Something like "smiley smile message board (+) whatever you want to search", since Chuck unleashed the Google spider/bot on here, I'm pretty sure its thoroughly archived every post on here. Personally, I think you will find better results that way.

I'd be interested to hear about this again too...

Re the wow on "Worms":  Mark Linett told me that they had pulled the wrong master for that, somehow.  Sounds like an acetate with an eccentric center hole to me.

If that was the wrong master, does that therefore suggest they had the right master there somewhere?

And do sessions sheets indicate that lead vocals were ever recorded?  To me it seems weird there would be acetates of just the backings...

There was a 12/21/66 vocal session for "DYLW" at Columbia - whether that was for just the bvs or the lead as well, couldn't say. Certainly the lyric was written by then.

I was just reading about this in an old ESQ...Mark said that after the box set's release, they sent the corrected master to Capitol, but he wasn't sure if anything was done with it.  So if anyone has a later pressing of the set, they would be the ones to ask.

I wonder how the speed corrected version ended up getting bootleged?

II don't think the box set version is from an acetate. Then again, where IS it from?  I know its been covered before, but as per the search discussion above, I can't seem to find it. BTW, loving the SMiLE discussions, even if it's all rehashed. I think there are some new ideas I hadn't heard before. And why oh why must everyone pick on ol' AGD? He is trying to help, I assume, after all.

I think it's great that, despite any imperfections, a version of DYLW was located (or created, using material that had not ever circulated) that included
(or had edited into it by persons unknown) the backing vocal section that would have accompanied the second "Sandwich Isles" lyric part of the song. It seems odd that that vocal section would have only been placed in front of the second verse and not the first, when the complete lyrics that led into both the first and second verses had presumably both been written.

Does AGD or anyone else know the story behind that? I had heard again that Linett swore that
he didn't do any editing on DYLW. ???

It was a fan computer speed corrected version that was booted, not the original.

I'm curious about "our Prayer"- as most of you know a tape circulates of the vocal session for this song (possibly the most fascinating tape-with Brian asking whether the others can feel the effect of certain substances and Carl asking Brian to really lead the session, etc).  Tape I heard has Brian continually stopping the group-mostly due to Mike flatting...So did the session end with a releasable take? Or did they never finish it due to their altered states? I ask because it's clear in Oct 1966 the song was fully formed in Brian's head and they knew the parts-yet in 1968 it is known that they went to Capitol to add more vocals-is that because it was never finished or they just felt it could be better?  I find it odd that they could spend a whole night working on it and then not return to it the next day or next session...but maybe that is what happened....

Based on the "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" article, the track was finished in '66.  Maybe not at that particular session, but very shortly thereafter.  It was apparently the last acetate Brian played for his dinner guests that night.

It's safe to say we know you're referring to acid. :brian

This leads me to believe Brian considered it the final track to Smile at one point, after Surf's Up. Vosse describes a choral piece that was to follow Surf's up as the closer to the album in his 68 article. I struggle to think this could have been anything other than Our Prayer, although as others have pointed out Vosse was familiar with 20/20 at the time of the article so you'd think he'd refer to the piece by name. I wish I'd been around to ask him about this when he briefly showed up on The Smile Shop board. Is that thread archived anywhere?

That's possible, but you're right, you would think that Vosse would have referred to Prayer by name.  Maybe it just slipped his mind.  Obviously at the session, Brian considers it to be a "little intro to the album," but God knows he changed his mind like the wind. 

Maybe Vosse was referring to the "Child" tag when he spoke of a choral piece after Surf's Up?  That would make more sense to me.

Yeah - perhaps that tag was to have wordless vocals over it. It's certainly similar to Our Prayer with the descending parts. Anybody's guess I suppose but it would be interesting to ask Vosse to clarify - At least it would be something he could definitely answer, memory permitting. I wish I'd been on the board when he was answering questions.

Yeah - perhaps that tag was to have wordless vocals over it. It's certainly similar to Our Prayer with the descending parts. Anybody's guess I suppose but it would be interesting to ask Vosse to clarify - At least it would be something he could definitely answer, memory permitting. I wish I'd been on the board when he was answering questions.
[/quote]

There's a Smile era edit of the song that takes out the next to last vocal section - it could be that section was the choral piece after Surf's Up, ending the album with Prayer (or part of Prayer) and bringing Smile full circle to the beginning.

Which could also explain why a portion of "Prayer" shows up at the end of "In Blue Hawaii" on BWPS. I wonder if Darian thought of that himself or if Brian recalled that he originally wanted a reprise of "Prayer" to come in near the end?

I also thought (because it was commonly thought "Surf's Up" would conclude SMiLE) that Jules Siegel's noting that the end of "Surf's Up" was like the "Prayer" that folks would imagine that SMiLE could have ended with the prayer. Siegel goes, "On the last word Brian's voice rose and fell, like the ending of that prayer chorale he had played so many months before."

Or... it could just be a neat way of closing the cycle (circle) by returning to the beginning.

Which might be taken to imply that Brian never wanted Good Vibrations on SMiLE, that it's only there cos of Nonsuch's insistence!   :lol

Then of course, there is the fact that the version of WONDERFUL used on the boxset was NOT found int he BB tape vaults. It had gone walkabout and they had to source it from a former employee who had safety copied it for himself while working for the group. His safety is now in the hands of the group. It was a safety of Brian's Dec 1966 comp reel.

Walkabout was an excellent early Nicholas Roeg film, but it's SO disheartening (and accurate) to hear
the word applied to BB vault material. Same old story, absolutely maddening!

Interesting inside info. :o

It's no big deal. Tom Murphy had the copy. Thank goodness. Although, from what I hear, the original comp reeel has been found. Don't know about the original master that was copied to the comp reel.

Bob

i was just thinking of that thread the other day, wondering if it was stored anywhere. btw, i'm to blame for michael showing up on the board (i sent him a link to the thread with the fusion interview.) 

Was it COPIED to the comp reel, or were the master takes simply cut out and spliced together on the comp reel?

Did the original Wonderful ever have the yodel-lee-eeoo mixed properly onto the track?

There's a version of Prayer floating around, maybe an acetate version (?), that is slightly shorter than the version we've come to know. Could it be that Brian removed part of the final refrain and planned to use THAT at the end of the album? Would be a reprise yet not really repetition, aside from the "hmmmmm".

Now THAT is  great question. My thoughts are that it would have been copied to the comp reel, because there are certain things (compression, etc) that have to been done to the track in order to use it to cut the acetate.