The Smiley Smile Message Board

I have to say that while I don't agree with Bruce on a lot of creative decisions he made, his defence of Mike is very true.

Is there supposed to be a link to the interview?

Wow....what did he say?

Fucking priceless!

Call me nuts, but I don't like him mentioning Hitler. I mean Mike is an entertainer and I never heard anyone saying that Mike killed millions of people. Kinda takes the seriousness out of the Nazi-regime. Maybe it's because I'm german, but I think you shouldn't compare such an unimportant thing like the Beach Boys with something terrible as WW2



That said, I like the Mike-interview much better where he talks about his good(-again) relationship with Al and Brian.

Well I agree Rocker it's a little extreme, but Bruce is right about how unfairly Mike is seen by the Leaf-Blueboard crowd. Do you have a link for the Mike interview where he talks about Brian and Al?

Thanks to Jasper:

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080327/FEATURES/803270704/1006/SPORTS (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080327/FEATURES/803270704/1006/SPORTS)

That is a good interview. If they record the symphonic show they same way I heard it, it will make for an amazing record.

Link to Bruce interview

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/mar/26/beach-boy-bruce-johnston-you-cant-tell-me-aging-ki/

Yeah, the Blueboard crowd IS rather overboard and sychophant.  Anything that doesn't involve Brian is seen as crap by them.  The pack mentality over there really has gotten on my last nerve.  This message board is much more objective which I dig.  But yes, I think Bruce really had some good points.  It was Mike's dedication to hardcore touring that kept the band in the public eye back when Brian checked out for the late half of the 60's and part of the 70's.

I don't know if I agree with Bruce.  I've only seen the Mike-led Beach Boys once, and I was very disappointed.  Whereas I've been very pleased at Brian gigs, some more than others.  I think all bands sink or swim by the overall lineup.  Maybe Brian doesn't sing as well as he used to, and he does have gigs where he seems not to want to be there.  His band sometimes seems to phone it in, too.  But when Brian and/or his bandmates are engaged, they do a great job of recreating the Beach Boys sound and vibe.  There's nothing bummer-y about them, and they're totally professional.  I think it probably also depends on what band Mike is fronting, and what kind of night he and his band are having.  I caught them on a bad night, or maybe when there was a bad line-up, or both.  I'm sure seeing Al is a similar experience.  That's what made the lawsuits so dumb to me.  I don't think having Al performing with his "Family and Friends" (or Brian and his band, for that matter) necessarily diminishes the audience for Beach Boys live shows.  It might actually increase interest as all three acts can cover more geographically.  They should have let Al be as long as he wasn't explicitly using the Beach Boys name.  It's so dumb, and why Mike reduced himself in the fan's eyes.

What do you expect Bruce to say?  He essentially works for Mike.

i've said it before, but bruce is such a tool... he's really irrelevant to anything i like about the beach boys, and he is far more annoying to me personally than mike. yes, he is justified in saying that mike gets an unfair amount of criticism sometimes, but he sounds like the company man that he is. some of the stick mike gets he has earned with flying colors. i hope bruce is joking with his disney comment... that coming from the guy who wrote disney girls... he IS nostalgia.

mike cracks me up with his "i like touring better than recording" comment... you think? haha... you wouldn't be milking that cow you're so proud of if _someone_ didn't like recording. it seems like it should go without saying, and i'm sure most people are laughing it off, but bruce's dismissal of BWPS and contention that mike fronts a better band than brian? do they really believe that?

mike is unjustly despised, and he deserves some measure of credit for leading the beach boys charge since the seventies, but good chunks of both interviews are pure comedy. it doesn't make it right, but that's why so many people, including many blueboarders, hate the guy and his lackey.

I'm ok with about 95% of that!

I think the reason so many people don't like Mike is because of his resistance to SMiLE back in '66/'67, his over insistence on turning the Beach Boys into a cheesy oldies act, and for writing/recording travesties such as Kokomo and Summer in Paradise. I personally think he should've been booted from the group the second he questioned VDP's lyrics. No, it wasn't totally Love's fault SMiLE was scrapped, but causing Van Dyke to quit really threw Brian out of focus. No, I'm not a blueboarder who thinks anything not involving Brian is crap. I love Carl and Dennis' work. Al had some pretty good music, too, until he jumped on the oldies bandwagon for a while. I also think Blondie and Ricky were/are pretty awesome. I just can't really stand Mike. He hasn't written a good song since Big Sur. All the cheesy 4th of July concerts, the whole America's Band schtick, Kokomo, creepy old bald guy dancing around on the beach with young bikini clad females, the bad Wipe Out cover, the cheerleaders, the Full House appearances....Love turned the group into a mockery of itself. If Carl had kept his leadership over the group and they kept going in the direction they did on CATP and Holland, and Brian got proper psychiatric treatment instead of being "Landy-ized" and unwillingly forced into the spotlight only to lack the motivation to do anything remotely progressive...they could've established themselves as serious artists, but both personal and personnel shakeups created circumstances that allowed the Lovester to control the setlists in the late 70s and early 80s, and ultimately dictate their creative direction from Kokomo onward. Mike would've been just another blue-collar guy if Brian didn't ask him to join the Beach Boys, and he should be forever grateful to Brian for that. But no, he had to piss off Van Dyke and shatter Brian's confidence while he was in the middle of making one of the greatest albums of the rock era.

Didn't Bruce quit the Beach Boys in '72 partly because he was sick of playing oldies? What irony!
That said, you have to give the guy some credit for at least trying to keep the group functioning as a recording unit in the late seventies and while it didn't stand the test of time in terms of both songwriting and production, he even called the 1985 record "our most important album since Sunflower". So obviously, it wasn't all about nostalgia for him up until a certain point.

The truth is, while I dont have much of a problem with Bruce and Mikes nostalgia cheese-fest(I figure they work hard, employ a number of people and so on and it's their right), and I think that he is right about Mike Love not being Hitler, I do take exception to his dissing of Brian. As far as I can tell Brian Wilson is, at this point the only one of the members who is anything near a vital artist. He may have put out some subpar albums in the last few years...er, decdes, but at least he's still giving at least some effort. What has Bruce done in the last few years? The idea that some people are merely "dusting Brian off and wheeling him out" is mean-spirited and needlessly insulting.

i agree... having a go at brian is where they really show their true colors. those types of comments come from insecurity and/or jealousy. mike and bruce should be banned from even _using the word_ creativity until they can get an album released. thing is, they probably can't unless the words 'brian' and 'wilson' are on the package, hence your rude comments. like i said in a previous post, we should be laughing this off due to the completely ludicrous nature of the men making the comments, but i can't let it go...haha. i think they actually believe the sh*t they say, which really bothers me too.

mike has earned his rep in most cases, and he has only himself to thank for a lot of people, BB fans or not, thinking he's a complete turd. but mike also deserves credit for all the lyrics he wrote with and for brian, and leading the band through some rough times... he's always been the beach boys biggest fan, right or wrong. and yes, he is cheesy beyond belief... part of the package, and we take it for what it is. bruce, while he has made 'contributions' to the beach boys, has given the least, and no amount of revisionist history or current 'beach boys' service time gives him the right to question or criticize anything brian wilson does creatively. the fact that brian writes, records and releases music sort of wins that argument... i'm still waiting for bruce's magnus opus.

I think Al is making major concessions to be the peacemaker here.  I think that the original lawsuit about the name was frivolous, especially with other tribute groups out there that use the name "Beach Boys" in their name that were never sued.  I am glad that they all seem to be getting along now, and I do hope that they all collaborate in some way in the future, but I think that Al really had to bite the bullet in order to do it.

Rather than harping on about what BW could've become, he might dwell on the waste of talent that is Bruce Johnston.  I have no beef about him supporting Mike, but if any of the Boys were going to make it writing movie music, it was Bruce and he kind of fizzled out.

I personally think he should've been booted from the group the second he questioned VDP's lyrics.

Why?  He was being asked to sing a bunch of words that made absolutely no sense to him (or a lot of other people).  Of course he had every right to question what was going on. Mike and the others weren't just Brian's studio tools, they were important parts of a group effort, and shouldn't have been expected to simply go along with everything that came along, particularly when there was such a radical shift.  A lot of Smile at the time had to sound like a bunch of gibberish, and for a group with such a successful history as a top-notch mainstream rock and roll band, who wouldn't have been a little taken aback?  If Carl or Dennis had no problem, fine, good for them, but Mike had legitimate questions.  He also ultimately, by all accounts i've ever seen, worked hard in the studio on the Smile sessions. 

And I'm not really sure exactly what is wrong with them playing huge 4th of July concerts at the nation's capitol.  Sounds good to me.

Fair comment. Bruce had lots of options after winning his Grammy in '76 (?). He could have done better than releasing a solo album he currently despises and going quietly back to the comfort of the Beach Boys' tour machine.

As for his comments about Brian, he's right on the money.

I really don't buy this whole thing of "the words didn't make sense to him".. so what? Firstly, if you don't understand something it doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense (eg: if you don't understand Einstein's concept of mass–energy equivalence, it doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense). Secondly, Brian had largely gotten the Beach Boys to where they were at that point (eg: he obviously wrote Surfin' Safari, Surfin' USA, I Get Around, Help Me, Rhonda, Surfer Girl, California Girls etc.. ) so I don't understand why Mike questioned Brian's move towards the SMiLE music. I mean Mike says it was the lyrics on SMiLE that he didn't like, but seriously can you imagine surfing or boy-meets-girl lyrics put to Cabinessence, Surf's Up etc..? Thirdly, I get fed up when people say "well Pet Sounds was a failure", umm number 2 in the UK, and number 10 in the US - I wouldn't consider that a failure.

And I know... I can sort of understand Mike's concern of "don't f**k with the formula" or whatever it was that he actually said, BUT why couldn't Mike just see the SMiLE album out and THEN if it is a failure (say #50) then I think Mike could start asking questions. I mean what came out instead? Smiley Smile which peaked at #41. And some of those lyrics are fantastic!! ::) Like She's Goin' Bald, gee what a great message Mike ::) And I'm sure SMiLE would've done better than Smiley Smile (especially with all the hype around SMiLE). I know it's easy to say that in hindsight, BUT up until Pet Sounds the Beach Boys hadn't really had an album that failed (besides their debut album the lowest charting album was #13 and every other album was in the top 10) so why not just go along with what Brian was doing (since they were so close anyway) and just see the damn thing out. If it was a success then go along with it, if it's a failure then you can complain and tell VDP off etc.. I'm sorry I just don't understand Mike and I don't understand people that defend him on this issue. Yes he gets a lot of crap and a lot of it is undeserved, and I'm not really even having a go at Mike here except for the fact that I'm saying he shouldn't have put Brian's project down. I mean maybe if he just sat there for 5 seconds and thought to himself "gee, Brian really has put a lot of work into this" then maybe he wouldn't have been so quick to put the project down. I mean how would Mike like it if Brian said to him in later years "Student Demonstration Time" is a load of crap and it's just a rewrite, stop wasting your time! Or whatever song it was, can you imagine Brian putting Mike down for something he created? The fact was that he rarely (if at all) objected to Mike's contributions. I just think Mike can be a little insensitive sometimes.

I agree with you on your last point, I don't think it's so much the fact that they played those 4th of July concerts, it's just the fact that the band wasn't in the best shape at those times.

Before I address the above point, I will say that I can NOT defend Mike Love when it comes to SMiLE. He was wrong then, and he's wrong now. It amazes me that someone as intelligent and worldly as Mike Love STILL does not "get" SMiLE. Anyway....

I think Mike's problem with the lyrics wasn't only that he didn't understand them. More importantly to Mike (I think) is that he felt THE FANS wouldn't understand or ACCEPT them.

The point about "Surf's Up" with boy-meets-girl lyrics....I think I understand the "Surf's Up" lyrics, and, to some extent, I can enjoy/appreciate them. But I don't necessarily love them. I admit that there have been times I have been listening to that gorgeous backing track and Carl's and Brian's tender vocal(s), and I have wondered how the song would feel with different, more mainstream lyrics. You know, to be touched the way "Don't Worry, Baby" or "Kiss Me, Baby" or "Caroline, No" can get to you. Again, I appreciate "Surf's Up" as a true work of art, I'm not knocking it, it's great, and I hope my comments are interpreted differently....

I know it's weird, but for the second time this week, I agree with SJS!

Mike himself has said he liked--or appreciated, I should say--those lyrics. But the man was in pop music, and he was trying to sell pop or rock 'n' roll records. Yes, the scene was changing and people were beginning to take it more seriously than they had been in previous years (Too seriously, if you ask me...most of that self-important psychedelic trash of the era can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. But I digress...), but he was coming from the perspective of a guy who had co-written a lot of hit songs and was still out performing rock 'n' roll sets to kids--kids who loved "I Get Around." There's nothing wrong with that music. Mike didn't mean he didn't understand the lyrics and so they were bad; he meant he didn't understand why you'd release those lyrics when they weren't what people (the people he thought should relate to the Beach Boys) would want to hear.

I disagree with Mike Love in that I think Smile was so brilliant to my ears, it's hard for me to imagine anyone thinking "this is too far out for our fans." I can only imagine "this is really far out ... and brilliant. We have to do it. We can do another moon-in-June record next."

As for mikeyj's discussion of Smiley Smile instead of Smile, well, I think that's a tough situation to make sense of. But it's important to keep in mind that Mike didn't ever say, "Smile sucks; let's do Smiley Smile!" He no doubt (well, I have no doubt...) would have preferred Smile, as it was obviously superior. But perhaps by the time Smile was done for, he was willing to work for whatever came next.

Good point Sheriff, but I still say he should've gone along with it. I mean I wasn't around at the time (WAY to young) but I really don't think that they would've been too out of place would they?


I understand your feelings Sheriff, and of course it's all totally a personal thing, but I think that Surf's Up's lyrics are just perfect the way they are. I mean just as with the actual music, lyrics can be interpreted differently. And for me personally I can't see the song having more 'commercial' lyrics, because generally I don't think it is a commercial-type song. I mean who knows what it would've sounded like and maybe I would like it better if I was able to hear it with more commercial lyrics, but I just think the words compliment the music beautifully

Time for a contest, songwriters! Write your best "commercial" lyrics for Surf's Up, and if you've got the ability, heck, record it to the instrumental track. (Is there a BWPS instrumental of that one? I know there's the first part instrumentally on the GV box.) A good time will be had by all.

Surf's Up twofer booklet, about SDT:

"It was a little bit too intense. It didn't hit the spot for me. It wasn't too vocally intense but lyrically it was a bit too far out to me."
(Brian Wilson)


I think Mike had the right to voice his opinion about the band's direction, as much as Carl during the 15 Big Ones sessions. What were they offering instead in '66 or '76? Almost everyone here secretly wishes Carl and Dennis had "fired" Brian and produced a proper follow-up to Holland. I don't see the difference.

Good conversation, mikeyj. And, again, I can't defend Mike on SMiLE. Hey, Luther, your agreeing with me is playing games with my head. I don't know whether to be flattered - or re-think my opinions! :police:

A quick story....Back in the mid-1970's there was this multi vinyl/cassette/8-track set called (I think) Superstars Of The 70's. It really was quite good, and diverse. Anyway, "Surf's Up" was on it. At that time I was not a Beach Boys' fan, being familiar only with the surf & turf songs. So I figure "Surf's Up" is one of them. Well, was I in for a shock when my buddy puts the 8-track in, and out comes "A diamond necklace played the pawn...." I remember thinking, "What the hell is this?"

Point taken Luther. And sure, I understand where Mike was coming from. But let me just say this Luther. If you were in a band (and I know you are in a band) where one guy had basically been responsible largely for your success (say 80% of it was because of him) and you had yet to have a real failure, would you question him and say "this is garbage, our fans won't like this"... well I'm sorry (back to Mike+Brian) to tell Mike but despite what he claims when he says in the Endless Harmony documentary (and I'm para-phrasing) "I think the reason why people like the Beach Boys is because of the positivity - and that was ME!! Brian was melancholy, I was Mr. Positive thinker." and he always goes on about how he is so commercially minded and that part may be true, BUT Brian knew what would sell just as much (if not more) than Mike - at least before hand. And he's saying Brian's melancholy etc.. well how about "Fun, Fun, Fun", "I Get Around", "Surfin' USA", "Surfin' Safari", "Catch A Wave", "California Girls", "Dance, Dance, Dance".. ummm as far as I know, Brian wrote the music in those songs and then Mike wrote lyrics to them, but that music is what I'm sure Mike would deem 'positive sounding music'... Point being, is that I just think that Mike can be so insensitive sometimes (like I said before) and so short sighted.. I mean just because he doesn't like something - um, Mike the whole world doesn't revolve around you - doesn't mean that he has to object to it. I mean like I said (and keep saying) just let Brian have his little moment and if it's a failure (since they hadn't had a failure yet) then question his direction.

I just think it's sad, because it seems like so many people questioned Brian on everything he did and as we all know he was/is a pretty sensitive guy. I remember a quote from Marilyn and I thought it was a pretty good one it was something like "a record company who questions Brian should be questioned itself". While it might not be entirely true, I think that if everyone had supported Brian (until they had a massive failure) then who knows where they could've gone. I mean even Bruce (who apparently liked Smile, Pet Sounds etc..) said about Good Vibrations "I was saying to the guys its either going to be the biggest hit of our career or the careers over" or something like that.. gee thanks for the confidence Bruce.. my point being maybe they should've just believed in Brian as they had in the past to get them to where they were.

Oh, and I totally agree that there isn't anything wrong with I Get Around and all of those songs. Some of the songs in that era are my favourites (in fact I just love all - meaning most - of the 60's and early 70's stuff)

Haha I knew someone was going to mention that quote from Brian. Well I think that's a bit different. It's easy to look back with hindsight and say "gee, maybe that wasn't the best decision/song" or whatever.. but Brian never actually objected to it, saying to Mike "we shouldn't release this, this is garbage" he just let Mike have is little moment. I mean if SMiLE had come out and it had either been a failure or a big success I honestly wouldn't care if Mike had said later down the track "SMiLE wasn't my favourite album, the songs just weren't very strong especially the lyrics", then that's cool. That's his opinion and he can have it (it's a free country after all - supposedly)

mikeyj, it's hard for me to argue because I honestly agree with you, basically. But I'm trying to be really open and fair about the debates, too. And I think I really do see Mike's (or Bruce's--remember, he was once the topic of this thread...another one luther helped to derail!) points at times. It's less a matter of right and wrong than it is a matter of being what you want to be. And the fact is, from somewhere in the mid/late 60s on, the band members' heads and hearts weren't in the same place. Brian-fans blame Mike. Mike-fans (are there those? I kid, I kid) blame Brian. There is a place for it all, but we get too hung up on our own personal preferences as if they were somehow the right ones.

So as to blaming Mike for going against Brian's wishes, remember, younger people like you and I (meaning who weren't around at the time) are hearing this--all of it, the music and the story--through different lenses that have been put in front of our eyes. We hear the Brian-Leaf publicity machine, we hear the Beach Boys-as-Business machine, and we hear interviews and clips that were compiled and edited for specific purposes. It's hard to take things as fact based on those circumstances, and so I just want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Couldn't agree more Luther. And I know, everyone's opinion is to some degree based on "personal preferences as if they were somehow the right ones." But hey, all this debating is all in the name of fun, right? ;)

Oh how I've missed THE THREAD!

No seriously though, I agree with mikey 100%. 

I just don't understand telling the guy that just handed you the biggest hit of your career that what he's doing now isn't "appropriate for the fans."  Like you said, if Smile had come out and flopped (doubtful but for sake of argument), then I could understand Mike saying "gee Brian, maybe we shouldn't have gone so far."  But even if he didn't care for the lyrics, or thought they would alienate the fans, wouldn't you think that your cousin has earned the right to do things his way?  He hadn't steered them wrong before, so the way I see it, you don't question him until he does.

But you, as co-writer of the aforementioned "biggest hit of your career" and lead singer on those successful tours, haven't steered the band wrong, either, have you? And so maybe the quitter-baby at home shouldn't complain until you do something wrong.

Again, I am so far in the Brian camp it's ridiculous, but even so ... be realistic from Mike's point of view, people. Was he supposed to know, in 1966/67, that Brian was Music-Jesus, the Rain Man of Pop who doesn't leave his bed and every time he farts it's magic? No. What he would have likely seen was his cousin starting to really f*** everything up by taking too many drugs, hanging out with leeches and abandoning music that had so far done nothing but work.

Brian did get to do things his way.  Other people may or may not have lodged objections, but nobody in the band ever prevented him from doing anything, relating to Smile.

Obviously we have the benefit of hindsight, and you're right, there was no way of knowing how Smile would have turned out.  But like I said, Brian hadn't made a wrong move yet, and especially after Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations, I think he deserved more support from the band than he got.  I can see how the drug issue would be worrying to Mike and the rest of the band, but like I said, until Brian monumentally fodaed up, they should have been behind him 100%.

True, Mike hadn't steered the band wrong either, but at that point, Brian was the one doing the steering, not Mike.  He was the one in creative control, and he instinctively knew that music was changing and that the "fun in the sun" surfing hits wouldn't cut it anymore.  Brian wanted to keep up with the other innovators like the Beatles, the Stones, etc.  He was on the cutting edge of the music business, and by the time of Smile, almost everybody knew it.  Again, I can see where Mike and the band may have had some reservations, but their leader needed their support more than ever and they weren't willing/able to give it to him.

I didn't mean physically stopping him...I meant that the band should have trusted him without resisting so much. 

You wouldn't have trouble trusting somebody who accused people of being witches, recorded hours of meaningless chants, canceled recording sessions with no prior notice, and in general was acting like somebody with bipolar disorder does before people knew what that was?

To me, the band was reacting how anybody would.  Like Luther said, sort of, pretend it wasn't Brian and it wasn't the Beach Boys.  Pretend it's your family.  If your dad started acting inconsistently and having trouble with his job, wouldn't you want to intervene at some point?

You make a good point Josh...sometimes it is difficult to separate the musical part of it from the fact that they were a family first, a band second.  I would certainly want to intervene if that were the case with a member of my family. 

The only part of the analogy I have trouble with is that I don't think criticizing that person would be the best way to deal with those problems.  You would want to get him some mental help, certainly.  Had all of this Smile business occurred today, Brian's behavior would have probably landed him in an institution of some kind pretty quickly.  But in the context of the time (and the fact that he was a rock star), a lot of what he was doing was just considered eccentric, not necessarily signs of mental illness. 

But I digress...my point is that even with Brian's worrying behavior, I would think the inclination on the part of family would be to boost his confidence by fully supporting the project, not to question him and knock him down when you know he can't handle it.  They knew the music was good, so why not just go for it and see what happens?  Of course, there were MANY other problems that led to Smile not being released...to be clear, I'm not trying to pin the blame squarely on the Beach Boys or Mike.  Brian most definitely had his own issues that may have killed Smile either way.  I just think that, if nothing else, the band as a whole should have stood behind him more, thats all.

Amen. I think Van Dyke leaving (even though he said he did it to help Brian) was a far bigger deterrent to Smile then anything else. Mike may have wondered about Cabinessence, but he did end up singing his lines. Mike went in the wrong direction eventually, but he had a lot to do with the Beach Boys commercial success. Brian was a one of a kind genius, and there would have been no group without him, but Mike was largely the one who sold Brian's vision to the masses. Mike didn't have near the talent of Brian, but anyone that wrote the marvelous songs on The Beach Boys Today obviously did have the ability to conceptualise and contribute to a more adult Beach Boys.

Van Dyke leaving...

Van Dyke still lived in LA and was always one phone call away from Brian, if more lyrics were required.

Before he left, what was his role in 1967? Brian's right hand in the studio? Moral support?

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Well except for a brief return in April, he stopped working with Brian at that point so I would say he basically quit. As to what he did before, it seems Smile was still a work in progress and he was still required lyrically. He probably to some extent was helpful in getting Brian to focus and yes he also seems to have provided moral support. I think he probably underestimated how important he was to the project. Hindsight is 20/20 nobody thought this stuff would be a big part of 20th century music history. I think all should be forgiven at this point because an everyday lapse of judgement can now be construed as something far more sinister.