The Smiley Smile Message Board

Doe's anybody know if the beach boy's(not 2005 Brian Wilson recording) Smile outtake of Surf's Up(song) commercially available.  I'd read that there was a finished recording made during the Smile session, before the Surf's Up album track was produced.  Is this true???  I have this strange feeling that when Brian Wilson dies, we are going to hear a lot of previously unreleased songs...   Unless they really did burn up in a fire...

As far as anyone knows, there is no completed version of "Surf's Up" from the original Smile sessions.  The track was not completed until the "Surf's Up" album itself.

All that exists (again, as far as we know anyways) from the Smile sessions is the instrumental track for the first movement and Brian's demo (both of which are commercially available, btw).  There have been rumors at various times about a second movement sessoin/tape, but so far nothing has turned up, and it seems unlikely at this point that anything ever will.  Chances are the second movement only existed in Brian's head, and was never committed to tape. 

I wonder how similar it was in his head to how it was re-created for BWPS...I guess we'll never know.

Cheers

By the way this is my first post...you may recognise me from occasionaly posting on the BlueBoard .

Yep, there is Brian's solo piano with doubled voice from December, '66, which can be found on the Good Vibrations box.  That is the only full version of the song from the Smile sessions that we know of.  There was recording done in '66 for the instrumental backing track for the first part of the song (up to the 'dove nested towers' part), and that is what Carl used for the first part of the song in '71.  There were no lead vocals from '66-'67 on that instrumental backing track, so Carl tried to get Brian to sing it in '71.   However, Brian was unwilling or unable to do it in '71, so Carl did it.  As the posters above mentioned, some folks claim that there was recording done for the instrumental backing track for the second part of the song in early '67 ('dove nested towers' to the 'Child' tag), but I won't believe it until I hear it.  Since Carl didn't have a vintage backing track for this second part, they simply used Brian's solo piano/vocal version from '66, augmented with '71 moog bass.  As for the 'Child' tag, no one knows for sure whether Brian intended the song to end this way or not in '66-'67.  It is said that he came down from his bedroom to instruct the Boys on how to put the tag together. 

Is there a decent recording of the Leonard Bernstein special Surf's Up available, in possibly mp3 or wav, or do I have to rip it from youtube somehow?  And why doesn't anybody post the entire documentary? Legal issues?

As LostArt mentioned, the "demo" is more than a demo and is probably an attempt at a complete, new "solo" version (aka Caroline, No) since the vocal is doubletracked.  Brian may have been contemplating further instrumental overdubs on this version but soon was sidetracked by Heroes and his disintegrating mental health.

Double-tracking a vocal doesn't mean it isn't a demo. John Lennon double-tracked demos. Brian did on Awake, at least, as well as S.U.

There is a fan-created mix of "Surf's Up", from the old Anne Wallace website.  It sychs the piano demo to the backing track of part one, then has the 1971 version of the song for part two.  It is extremely well done, and in my mind, I consider this to be the definitive version of this track.  That is, until I find the original session tape of part two at a yard sale somewhere....

You and me both, Shane!

Agreed!  The Anne Wallace version is about as close to an authentic Smile era version of "Surf's Up" as we're ever going to get.  I wish there was a way to fly in the strings from the BWPS version (without the piano) into the Anne Wallace version...maybe it's possible, I don't know.  I think that would sound really cool though.

"Doe's".   [giggle]

It was rare for Brian to doubletrack a demo vocal - multitrack yes (i.e. to show the different harmony parts) but not doubletrack.  Haven't heard the Awake demo but that was in 1972-3, right?  Was Brian's deno vocal for Breakaway double tracked in 1969 (I can't remember)?At least up to 1967 this is Brian's  first double tracked vocal.  What's also odd is that he had already recorded at least the first movement - if he was going to use that and not replace it with this new version, why not demo the vocal on the already recorded first movement?  I can't help but think he had some plan for this December piano recording other than a demo.

Brian double tracked his guide vocal for "Break Away", although there's only one vocal on the 'Endless Harmony' mix.

Don't forget that the "Surf's Up" demo aka "Surfin' Take 1" was done for the cameras. The recording process is very well described in Siegels Goodbye Surfing article. Brian first played in on the piano and when he added the vocal, everyone in the room was blown away. They talked a bit about the song and then he sang it again for the visitors.

I agree too.  I have it on the "Millenium Smile," and everything-but-the-kitchen sink mix that also put the demo Barnyard vocals over the backing track.

I'm not sure if the "Surf's Up demo" was done for the cameras or if it was just done while the cameras were there.  It's clear that neither the piano track or the vocal was done in just one or two takes - it was stop and start with redos all the way, which made the performance useless for the TV show - which was why Brian did the later take with the candelabra in his house that ended up on the show.  Brian recorded Wonderful and Cabinessence backing vocals with the Beach Boys earlier at the session, and I don't think they were done "for the cameras" - they were for Smile!

so what about those "bygone bygone" verses was that on the surf's up album only or was brian planning that in 66-67? I know the purple chick mix uses the verse ann wallace doesn't

I seem to remember things happening this way, from discussions on various BB boards:

Cameras were rolling on the double-tracked vocal sessions, but something went wrong with the filming.  If I remember correctly, the footage was too dark.  This footage is now lost.  So, a few days later, he sang it again for the cameras, and that's the version that made it onto the TV show.  Notice this version is not double-tracked.


The bygone bygone vocals were added in 1971 for the Surf's Up LP.  As they are not available (legally) aside from the 1971 version with Carl's vocal, Anne Wallace's version didn't use them.

I'm curious to know a few things... where was the double-tracked version (aka Surfin take 1) version recorded?  I don't recognize the engineer's voice.

Columbia studio A

The impression I get from the article is that after the BB vocal session not going well, Brian either realised that Oppenheim need something better to shoot, or possibly was asked to do something more accessible. Hence "Surf's Up". I've not got the text to hand, but doesn't Siegel say that he played for something like three and a half minutes, indicating few/no stops & starts ? Granted there's a very obvious edit in the track as per the box set, but the raw tape, if memory serves, has just one halt.

"OK, let's go," he said, and then, quickly, he was in the studio rehearsing, spotlighted in the center of the huge dark room, the cameramen moving about him invisibly outside the light.

"Let's do it," he announced, and the tape began to roll.  In the control room no one moved.  David Oppenheim, the TV producer, fortyish, handsome, usually studiously detached and professional, lay on the floor, hands behind his head, eyes closed.  For three minutes and 27 seconds, Wilson played with delicate intensity, speaking moodily through the piano.  Then he was finished.  Oppenheim, whose last documentary had been a study of Stravinsky, lay motionless.

"That's it," Wilson said as the tape continued to whirl.  The mood broke.  As if awakening from heavy sleep the people stirred and shook their heads.

"I'd like to hear that," Wilson said.  As his music replayed, he sang the lyrics in a high, almost falsetto voice, the cameras on him every second.

"The diamond necklace played the pawn," Wilson sang, "...a blind class aristocracy, back through the opera glass you see the pit and the pendulum drawn.

"Columnated ruins domino."  His voice reached upward; the piano faltered a set of falling chords.

In a slow series of impressionistic images the song moved to its ending:

I heard the word:
Wonderful thing!
A children's song!

On the last word Brian's voice rose and fell, like the ending of that prayer chorale he had played so many months before.

"That's really special," someone said.

"Special, that's right," said Wilson quietly.  "Van Dyke and I really kind of thought we had done something special when we finished that one."  He went back into the studio, put on the earphones and sang the song again for his audience in the control room, for the revolving tape recorder and for the cameras which relentlessly followed as he struggled to make manifest what still only existed as a perfect, incommunicable sound in his head.

-------

that's Siegel, verbatim.

as for SU part two, wasn't there an AFM sheet that listed strings and - i remember this because it doesn't fit the description of any known SMiLE outtake - an oboe?

I'm not aware of any AFM/session sheet that refers specifically to a 2nd movement of "SU".  The existance of this tape had been hotly debated for over 20 years. Current concensus seems to be - it was never recorded.

Thanks for posting that text - glad to know part of my memory still functions.

is there any consensus, agd, on the two sessions from 23 jan 1967?

the first - drums, bass, two guitars, trumpet and three (probably) saxes;

the second - 'sixteen musicians (mostly strings)' - including jesse ehrlich (cello), ralph schaeffer (violin) and robert hardaway (oboe/english horn). 

certainly nothing resembling the second line-up has ever surfaced on boot.  and, if they are saxes, there's nothing matching the first one out there, either.  any clues?

OK, the AFM for the first session doesn't list instruments and the assumption of saxes for Jim Horn & Jay Migliori is just that - an assumption: both men could also have played clarinet or flute.

thanks, agd.  i was going to say something pithy about the plot thickening, but, frankly, the SMiLE plot has always been thick enough to stand a spoon in.

as fred waring's pennsylvanians sang, "ah, sweet mystery of life..."

You just broke my heart. How did the fabled "2nd Movement" session get tied to that 1/23/67 session? Do you think something else was recorded or that session never took place?

While I'm at it are we sure the group vocal sessions for Look/I Ran and IIGS took place?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

The session has probably been suspected to be the "2nd Movement" because the first movement was already done, and I believe the title on the 1/23 session is just "Surf's Up".  Given the fact that a session took place and the musicians that were used, its easy to see how people might speculate that it was a session for the 2nd Movement.  Of course, since nothing has turned up in the 40 years since the sessions, I would suspect that either nothing was recorded (which, like Andrew said, is the current consensus) or whatever was recorded got scrapped.

As far as Look/I Ran and IIGS go, I'm not entirely sure, but I thought the consensus there was that (similar to 2nd Movement of Surf's Up) there were sessions at which either nothing got recorded or vocals WERE recorded but Brian wiped the tapes later on.  Obviously nothing has ever surfaced vocal-wise for those, so its anybody's guess.

There are lots of tapes missing from the BB tape archive - it doesn't mean they weren't recorded!  It just means they're missing - wiped (which would be more likely in terms of vocal sessions than instrumental sessions) or misplaced (lost at Columbia most likely).  Alan Boyd has remarked on the number of empty tape boxes from the SMile sessions, and the infamous photo of the "Dumb Angel" tape which is now lost.  So I wouldn't write off this session as never having been recorded - if the session was cancelled wouldn't that be noted on the AFM sheet?

Now whether the session was for the 2nd movement is something that can never be answered without the tape I guess.  It could have been an overdub session for the December piano demo, a rerecord of the 1st movement, overdubs on the 1st movement, or the Surf's Up title could be incorrect - like the Great Shape title on the I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night tape box.

I think the '71 version is just excellent. I don't see how a full '67 version could've been much better...

If Brian intended to have full group vocals behind his lead during the first movement (like in the BWPS version), then that '67 version would have been fantastic.

I like the '71 version too, but I would much prefer a '67 version with Brian doing the lead throughout, group vocals during the first movement (as Roger said above) and a more orchestrated second movement. 

There is little doubt in my mind that there are genuine SMiLE rarities that exist, not having been booted and widely circulated. Maybe it's just a hunch or wishful thinking, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if tapes exist on the down low. Also, who knows what if any work was done on the music when they initially signed with Warner Bros..

I think that Brian would've layed down a fuller vocal texture in the 1st movement of SU had it been recorded in 67....while 71 is cool, Carl's lead seems weird...IMO

I was told by Steve Desper that he & Carl listened to the tapes, made safety copies and returned them to the vaults. The only 'further' work done was the piecing together of "Surf's Up" and the use of the water chant  on "Cool, Cool Water".

I guess the fact that they didn't find a 2nd movement backing track in '71 speaks volumes. If it existed in '67 I assume it would've still be there in '71 (unless BW burned that session..)

Anyone have any thoughts on whether Van Dyke wrote verse lyrics for CITFOTM in '66? If so any evidence they were recorded?

Yeah, Carl does sound like he had a few beers before he laid down the vocals. In fact, wasn't it Desper who offered that anecdote in a previous post? Maybe I'm confusing it with another song.

When Jon Hunt asked Van Dyke (before BWPS) whether he wrote lyrics for Child, he answered yes - but didn't elaborate on whether he had written verse lyrics or just the chorus (one line - child is father to the man).  It seems unlikely to me that he would have just written the title/one line and not verse lyrics - but if he did, the lyrics must have been lost since the lyrics to BWPS Child Van Dyke confirmed were new and not 67 vintage.

I remember Desper writing on the smileshop board that Carl did try to do a couple of overdubs on the Smile tapes besides the recreation of Cabinessence and Surf's Up, but he wasn't specific and said Carl soon abandoned the idea.  If he did those overdubs on the eight track comp tapes he and Stephen put together, I'm not sure we would know what is a 71-72 overdub and what was original to the 67 tapes, since much of Smile is only present on these comp tapes, the original multitracks are missing.

All the answers are in a box under some old clothes in Durrie Park's basement!  :p

Which is what bothers me about Van Dyke Parks. Thanks, Van Dyke, don't tell us what you know. Keep the/your myth alive. I know a secret and I'm not telling....

The myth will never die.....it's like the Energizer bunny.

You know the rest.

But yeah, Van Dyke's a little weird when it comes to discussing his contributions to Smile. Even Beautiful Dreamer did VERY little to inform us further. I suppose there are just things about Smile that we're just never going to find out. Perhaps it's for the best.

It's for the best because it makes great discussions, even in these post-BWPS days.

I can't understand why they can't aquire the Durrie Parks acetates. IIRC Alan Boyd has said here that they want to purchase any unheard Smile material. Obviously they know Durrie has the acetates right? Why can't they work something out? Didn't Durrie tell someone on the old Shop she planned on going through that stuff?

I guess the simple reason they haven't got Durrie Park's acetates is because it is going to cost a pretty penny to get them.  And who's going to pay?  Capitol isn't planning a SMiLE box set, so they won't pay because there is no way to get their money back.  Maybe, just maybe now that the lawsuits are mostly over the three of them (plus Carl's heirs) will finally agree to releasing some old tapes?  Maybe Mike and Al and Brian will go into the studio and add vocal tracks to SMiLE instrumentals?  Maybe they'll all tour together?  However, I'm not expecting any of this to happen.  I did expect a SMiLE box set and even a reunion tour with all surviving Beach Boys to tour doing SMiLE within the first year or two after Brian released his new SMiLE.  But since didn't happen, and since the Beach Boys Store never opened I'm not expecting anything anymore really.  News of the Denny double disc really took me by surprise, and is a great development.  But I'm not getting my hopes up for any more stuff like it.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega

The odd thing is...they interviewed her for Beautiful Dreamer if I recall...right?  The first question I would have asked...."Don't you have some acetates from the original Smile sessions?  Did you ever consider sharing them with Brian & Co.?"

Why didn't someone ask...or have they inquired and been told it's gonna cost some money.

I would assume that Brian is done with Smile and it's only the historical nut cases that care.

I don't know if it is true that Durrie Parks, A) has SMiLE acetates in her possession, or, B) would charge a pretty penny for them.

But, if she has them, I really hope she wouldn't charge a lot for them. There is just something wrong about that. Oh, I know I'm being naive by taking that position. Greed is everywhere.  But it would still bother me very much if Durrie Parks, who did nothing to deserve even having them, would want to make a large profit off of them.

Were they part of her divorce settlement?  If so then she might see them as an investment in some way.

>>I guess the simple reason they haven't got Durrie Park's acetates is because it is going to cost a pretty penny to get them.<<

i just can't believe money is a big issue where something like Brian Wilson is concerned, especially when it's SMiLE.  

the surviving beatles and the estates of the late beatles, for example, had their home demos collated and safety copies made a few years ago - whether that was for anthology, i'm not sure - but all sorts of clank was dredged up: lennon doing endless rambling guitar versions of 'good morning, good morning' and great slews of other stuff that is of minimal (or, arguably, zero) interest commercially, but is worth preserving for the future for any number of reasons.  

in 200 years' time, BW's work will probably (sod it, i'd say, CERTAINLY) have the same kind of value that, say, beethoven's does today: i.e. artistically of the first order, and financially skyscraping.  beethoven, fortunately, scribbled on paper, which yellows and curls and dries out, but is preservable.  acetates deteriorate with every single playing, and tape oxidises and turns to splup and dust.  anyone seriously interested in BW's legacy (not just 'historical nutcases') ought, in all responsibility, to be tracking down every damn thing he did of any significance and archiving it.  

trouble is, of course, that it's difficult to persuade the living of the value of their work.

You're kidding. I didn't know that's how she got 'em. I thought she just found them stashed away somewhere in the garage or closet.

That bothers me even more, that Van Dyke Parks would "bargain" or negotiate them away. What respect he showed for the music....

I THINK that when Smile memorabilia began to have a value in the market, the Parks had already divorced. I've read in more than one place that the money raised with the acetates will go to their daughter. So I GUESS it was how they amicably sorted it out years ago.

Exactly....Not only on the Beethoven idea, but I don't trust Durrie with the acetates. They should be in a climate controlled vault after being duplicated by professionals.

Any living fan of Rock n' Roll knows how important this is....I just met a bunch of BB fan's today actually- However they probably don't know about any acetates. They raved about BWPS though. What I'm saying is there are more fans out there than I ever thought.

It's a grimy thing to charge a pretty pennie for something like that IMO....this would be a contribution in the name of art to the people of this world. She got the tapes through a divorce settlement. Maybe her hero is Heather Mills..... :angry

From what I have read in this thread NO ONE has said that Durrie got them from a divorce settlement (notice Mark H. was just asking the question, not stating a fact):


Not saying it aint true, just I don't know why people are getting upset over it.

Ok, point taken. Just add "If Durrie obtained acetates through divorce....." before reading the posts that upset you. Emphasis on the word "if".

I think the bigger point(s) are, as someone above mentioned, that it would be nice if "unearthed" SMiLE rarities would be simply turned over FOR THE SAKE OF ART. And, as I mentioned, that they not be negotiated for large sums of money that could quelch a deal, and prevent us from hearing them.

What percentage of art is given to the public free of charge for the sake of art?

Is it 0%?

Even if it's less than 1%, then I still want the SMiLE rarities to fall in that percentage. Hey, if you read my above post, I wrote that I was probably being naive. :police:

IMO if she has them, and does own them....they are a part of their family heritage and would be due fare compensation...art or no art....should they decide to sell them.  There's no ethical or moral issue to debate.  Brian has made millions off his art.

I had heard here or somewhere that there were some Smile era acetates that came into Durrie's possession as a result of her divorce...yeah she might have just found them in an old trunk or something...I'm assuming she retained posession to that stuff.

I understand if she wants to be properly compensated, but IMO it would be wrong to take advantage of the situation out of greed like Heather Mills(  :angry  ).

:)

It seems odd to me that they didn't at least audition the Parks acetates during the preperation of BWPS. Why write a vocal melody and new lyrics for, let's say, CITFOTM without at least listening to the most finished '66 version? (assuming there is a CITFOTM in Durrie's collection). I was really frustrating that with all the hoopela surrounding BWPS we still don't know what the CITFOTM lyrics were or what Great Shape was.

She did - when I went to Van Dyke's house for a wonderful evening in March 1985, I was told, without prompting that he couldn't play me anything from his collaborations with Brian as "my first wife got everything in the divorce - I suggest you contact her".

A further point - they're acetates, ergo you play them too much, they degrade very badly. How much is too much ? I've been told 20, maybe 30 times... plus, they were literally left lying around: Alan used to have a cardboard box full in his studio. You factor in nearly 40 years of careless handling & storage along with their being played to death in 1966/67, I'm thinking all you'd get is mono hiss.

Once again regarding missing SMiLE pieces that were recorded: Back in the day they recorded over the complete first instrumental session for "Heroes & Villains" for example. So everything's possible. And I do believe (only speculation!) that Brian erased a lot of vocal-work that he became unhappy with.
BTW, from what I've read, BRI did try to get hold of the Durry Parks acetates. I contacted her two or three years ago (and before you kill me, I'm a free person and allowed to do that) and she confirmed that she still has all this stuff -acetates, tapes & videos (?) in her words.
Even more interesting IMO would be the H&V tapes Brian did for the BB to learn their vocal parts. I think Bruce & Al mentioned those in different interviews. So I guess Brian sang all the parts himself for the boys and perhaps he did guide-vocals for other SMiLE tracks, like he did for PET SOUNDS.

From the archives of this very site, for those interested who haven't read this stuff:

 http://thesmileshop.net/index.php/Durrie_Parks%27_Acetates

Thanks for posting that. Some of those Peter Reum quotes really frustrate me.

"Brian and Van are such creative guys that they wouldn't have to hear Durrie's acetates to finish Smile"

"Durrie's stuff was unnecessary. If there is material she has that is not on the finished composition, it probably truly is an outtake, and would be interesting only for an archival release of the session sketches, like outtakes from Pet Sounds on the Pet Sounds Boxed Set (e.g. Brian screwing up the verses to WIBN)..."