The Smiley Smile Message Board

I've heard various viewpoints on this.  Is there anything definitive? 



Dan

Brian's. It was on his written tracklist for a working order.

... and in my opinion, it's a huge injustice to insinuate (not that you were!) that Sloop John B is inferior to the rest of the album.  That track is nothing short of a masterpiece, and one of Brian's very best productions, again, in my opinion.  Capitol or anyone would be crazy not to want that song on the album. 

I totally agree.

Uh, what? ??? So why mention it?


Dan

He didn't make the thread.

That's what I thought at first also.

Is this really a fact? It's great to know because SJB always jars a bit for me as I've read a few times that Brian didn't want it on the album.

YES!

Are you doubting Ian? Ohhhhhhh boy. Blood will run in the streets, man.

Brad Elliot, in the notes to the '99 reissue of Pet Sounds uncovers a Pet Sounds track list  (in Brian's handwriting) from February (?) '66 with Sloop- prior to not only it's release as a single, but prior to Caroline, No's 45 release, lending creedence to the "Brian did want it on the album" theory.

Yeah, that Brad Elliott doesn't know sh*t from f***.  ;)

Brian NEVER wanted it on the album! Never! Blasphemy! Danger Will Robinson, danger!



































Kidding.

Oh, come on now. I am love. 70's women...come to me.
Thanks for the direct quote, Rob.

I was kidding. Brad knows his sh*t. I was just being an ass.

Me too.  ;D

Dan, I don't understand what you're asking. 

I'm confused.  I asked a simple question, and then there was this thing about insinuation.  There was none......so why even mention it?


Dan

oh, gotcha.  I'll explain, then.

People never ask "Who put 'I just wasn't made for these times' on Pet Sounds?  Was it Brian, or Capitol?"  because 'I just wasn't made for these times' is considered artistic enough that everyone assumes it must have been Brian, the genius, who put it on the album.

Whenever someone suggests that Capitol insisted "Sloop John B" was put on the album, it usually comes with the insinuation that Brian wouldn't choose to put that song on his masterpiece, Pet Sounds, because it's not artistic enough.  There's no reason Brian wouldn't put the song on the album... so to say that Capitol requested it implies that Brian didn't want it on the album, usually the argument is that the song doesn't fit the mood or the 'story' of the album, or blah blah blah.

... but you already knew all that you just wanted to play innocent.

Personally, I feel the track does f*** up the flow of the album... And I don't think it sits at all well between two such beautiful tracks.

I don't care if it is a bonza production, I don't feel it works.

Well.....ok.  "Usually" is the operative word here.  Read my original post again.  There was no hidden agenda.  I happen to love SJB, and I couldn't imagine PS without it.  And I didn't suggest anything.  I asked a question.


Dan

Memo was dated circa 2/23/66. Tracks listed were:

Wouldn't It Be Nice
Caroline, No
Good, Good, Good Vibrations [sic]
You Still Believe In Ne
That's Not Me
Hang On To Your Ego
Sloop John B
The Old Man And The Baby (=  Let's Go Away For A While}
Don't Talk...
I Just Wasn't Made...

... and two others, as yet untitled, one an instrumental. Interesting that "GGGV" was slated for inclusion five days after the very first session.

Here is an excerpt from Brad Elliott's Pet Sounds 1999 liner notes:

There are a few problems with that, however.
1. Mark Linett has stated numerous times that they dumped these liner notes for the 2001 Pet Sounds release because it contained so many inaccuracies. (He never stated any details, however.)
2. Al Jardine has said in an interview from 2003 that (paraphrased) Capitol forced the song onto the album. We have discussed this interview on the Smile Shop board. Does anyone remember?

Dan,

I think Ron did not aim the remark at you, but at a general trend that seems to find Sloop John B,. unfitting on the album.
See this thread, for example: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=71466

.....a guy asks a question, and all of the 'scholars' jump down his throat.............

It was totally and completely relevant to the topic. Grow some foda skin, people.

Never heard anyone criticise Sloop for not being artisitic enough.
ive only ever heard people say it shouldnt be on the album becuase it disrupts the flow, as its too jolly compared to the rest.
i dont think there can be any criticisms about its artistic merits - how can there be? its bloomin' genius!

I can't remember where, but I'd read that "Good, God, Good Vibrations" was a working title for "Here Today". But I don't know how much truth lies in there....

One could say Sloop John B belongs to the album, at least it's in the right place,
when you look at the keys of the songs, always the next song is higher:


Dm: Don't Talk

Em: I'm Waiting For The Day 

Fmaj7: Let's Go Away For A While pt1
Gmaj7: Let's Go Away For A While pt2

Ab: Sloop John B

A: God Only Knows

Bb: I Know There's An Answer 

Bm/A: Here Today

also, but a less obvious pattern:
Bb/C: I Just Wasn't Made For These Times

starting guitar notes: D & Eb: Pet Sounds (harmony Bb ad9)

bottom notes of the melody: Em (where did your) F(long hair go): Caroline No


Conclusion: last 10 songs of Pet Sounds are in a quite regular sequence, always a step upwards in harmony,
when you look at the (starting) chords and keys:
D -> E-> F&G-> Ab-> A-> Bb-> B-> C-> D&Eb-> E&F

and yet rather than becoming uplifting, the album descends into the depths of despair at the end...

interesting discovery jaco...

Dan, Dan, Dan.  Did you read what I wrote originally? I clearly said in the original post that I wasn't saying that you were insinuating it.  The reason I mentioned it was that the entire "Capitol put it on there" rumour arose from people who think that the song doesn't fit the flow of the album and is inferior to the rest of the songs.... so of course it was worth mentioning that I didn't feel that was true.  This is really a pretty simple thing, I don't know why you don't understand what I'm talking about.  

Someone else on here has mentioned (although it's kind of shaky) that the last line of Sloop John B "This is the worst trip, I've ever been on" tidy's up the previous song, "Let's go away for a while". 

I prefer them going away for awhile to a log cabin, and him singing loving words to her... "Aslong as there are stars above you, I'll always love you"

Not his grandpa eating some corn.

Well I said it was kind of shaky, lol.  Maybe it's intended as comedic relief?

At least they didn't get in a yellow submarine!

... or fix any holes in the roof!

It's actually a pretty melancholy song about being homesick, a little like "That's Not Me", so in that way it does fit the theme of "Pet Sounds". I think it's the more upbeat orchestral arrangement that Brian did for it, probably because it was supposed to be a single, that makes it sound a little off on "Pet Sounds". Another type of arrangement might have made it fit better. It's also a kind of strange song in the BB's oeuvre, kind of strange that Al suggested it and in a way also strange that Brian took him up on it.

Søren

"Here Today", if I recall correctly, originally had the matrix # of the released version of "GV",  understandable as an "HT" riff crops up in "GV".

Brian certainly has a track record for that!

I also think that it works well with Let's Go Away for Awhile.

I think it fits perfectly on Pet Sounds.  It's a great track and a great piece of music - I love to listen to it without the vocals (I like the vocals also BTW).  I also think it's positioning in the middle of the album on CD or the end of side 1 on vinyl just gives the album the necessary lift at the right time as a listening experience.  Otherwise I think the mood might have been a bit too consistently downbeat and reflective for the album's own good.

I think that song may have the best track and best vocals of the whole catalogue, actually.

There are a few problems with that, however.
1. Mark Linett has stated numerous times that they dumped these liner notes for the 2001 Pet Sounds release because it contained so many inaccuracies. (He never stated any details, however.)
2. Al Jardine has said in an interview from 2003 that (paraphrased) Capitol forced the song onto the album. We have discussed this interview on the Smile Shop board.

Brad disagreed with David Leaf on several points, which is why the liner notes were dumped - Brad became unwelcome in the BB camp after that.  One point of disagreement is whether Brian or Carl was singing the alternate vocal for God Only Knows - Brad said Carl based on the tape box notes, David said Brian based on Brian's recollection.  You judge for yourself - but at least Brad always cited his sources/reasons for his pronouncements, unlike David.  I find Brad's notes were more provocative, informative, and interesting than David's cheerleading notes - listen to how great this part is, etc.  Wears on you after a while - let the listener discover how great it is on their own.

Don't have the 2003 interview, but I find the Feb 66 track list more compelling than an interview 37 years later, when separating myth and fact is more difficult.  Anyone have a quote?

Man, it even SOUNDS like Carl...

I think it had more to do with Brad being unwelcome in the Capitol camp circa summer 2000 than anything else, if what i've been told is true. Even so, I know who my money's on.

David Leaf has singlehandedly led to more people erroneously believing that a certain Beach Boy sings a lead on various tracks.  He messed me up so bad.  He and Peter Buck.

I mean, it's so obviously Carl on the alternate GOK, but having somebody tell you it's somebody else plants this seed of doubt that's hard to overcome.

I miss Brad's relentless scholarship.  Nobody has really filled in that void, I guess.

You could, you know....

Has someone done a "Correcting the Beach Boy liner notes" thread? There are so many little things that, as Josh said, plant seeds of doubt in your mind when a simple correction would be all it needs.

[slinks away, head down, snuffling quietly...]

I seem to remember a quote from Al stating that it was Capitol's decision.

Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to.  I think the same logically might be applicable to "Sloop John B."

I'm not relentless enough.  I'm not the sort who will make a call to Ferris State to see if Al went there.  I'm not organized enough, and I tend to lose interest in things, cyclically.


Andrew, I had a feeling you might take offense, but believe me, none was intended.  Your scholarship is much appreciated, it just feels different than Brad's.  It just seemed like he was always investigating some unknown.  Maybe you're investigating unknowns behind the scenes, that's very possible.  Brad always seemed to have a call in somewhere or whatnot.  But maybe that was just self-promotion.

Either way, I'm grateful to both Brad and Andrew equally for their contributions.

But what would put Brian in the position to feel he "had to" put Sloop on the album?  It wasn't even released when he wrote that tracklist, it wasn't a hit or a single.  GV was a proven winner come Smile time.

T'was a joke, my friend. Never let it be said i ever passed up an opportunity like that.  ;)

The analogy doesn't hold up, I'm afraid - Capitol was insisting on the inclusion of a #1 hit single on Smile[/i]. "SJB" hadn't even been released in February 1966.

[edit] bugger - forestalled again...

Well, then I hope you have some calls in...ready to break some devastatingly interesting never-before-known Beach Boys information to the board.

"Remember, Brian didn't want "Good Vibrations" on Smile originally, but he included it on the handwritten tracklist because he knew he had to."


Once again:

!!! THAT LIST WASN'T WRITTEN BY BRIAN !!!

Unless you are going to argue that someone went behind Brian's back and turned in an official track list to Capitol without Brian's knowledge, so what?  He most likely dictated it or something like that.  I thought about that and about Peter's revelation on that, but I think that Brian HAD to know something about that track list.  The only way he didn't gets into conspiracy theory.

Following research last year online, some of us conculded that's exactly what happened. And the person who did it was, apparently, Carl.

Conspiracy theory, then -- why would Carl go behind Brian's back, why would Capitol let him do it, how did they hide it from Brian for decades, and what did Carl think he was going to say when Brian found out?

Serious questions, because that's why I considered and rejected the notion.

Also, the list was shown to Brian last year and he swore that he has never seen it in his life.

I know that -- I just think he could have forgotted that he dictated it.

Again, the only possible answer to support that line is that someone was working behind his back.  That would add a new twist to the "the band hated it or not" debate.

Yeah, there's too much at play to think that Brian didn't have some part in the creation of that list.  It's just not something that could be got away with.  I mean, imagine some other group.  Picture Paul McCartney going into EMI and saying "Here's the tracklist for our new album, no need to contact our producer, just go ahead and print up the album sleeves."

I didn't think that the SMiLE tracklisting handwriting matched the handwriting on the lyric sheet for Surf's Up that is printed in Stephen Desper's book. It says Carl wrote it, with corrections from Brian (you can tell). I agree that it matched that of the Wild Honey notes, though. Anyone else have a look at the Surf's Up lyrics?

EXACTLY. This little practical thing, three months later Brian receives the album from the record plant and what the f*** is "do you like worms? Where's Plymuth Rock?

So Brian doesn't remember having anything to do with it... That's not good enough. Now that Carl's gone someone could ask Diane Rovell about it, I think she used to deal with that stuff.

Till I have more evidences, I'll keep believing that this conspiracy theory is a fan effort to legitimize BWPS and Beautiful Dreamer.

I totally think that Carl wrote the list.  I also think that he did it as dictated by Brian.

I agree with everything you said about Brad. In the good old days, we had Brad and AGD challenging each other about historical trivia, sources and proofs. He is truly missed. I also can't stand David's writing style.

So nobody has saved that quote by Al?

If you think of it, "Sloop John B" fits in with the whole "biography" so-to-speak of Brian's. The lyrics make sense (I know Brian/Asher didnt write this) but this was around the time when Brian quit touring, right? "I feel so broke up, I want to go home" it fits Brian's main theme of Pet Sounds, imo of him expressing what's going on inside his head during that time. Thought of that today while I should have been paying attention in History 102 hah

I like it in there mistake or not.





Unless you like to replace with ramdom takes of dogs barking or make your own version of Remember The Zoo  ::)

I think there has been a longstanding confusion about Brian not wanting Good Vibrations on Smile - it's on the list (which he must have approved at some point, even if he didn't physically write it), the single came out in October about two months before the album was originally due (by Christmas) and it would have been de riguer (sp?) to have the recent hit single on the album.  I think Brian didn't want to include it on Smiley Smile, where it clearly doesn't fit production wise.  Some of the comments about not wanting to include I remember came from the Anderle/Williams pieces where it's not clear which album they're talking about.

It's a moot argument anyways.  The song was gonna end up somewhere.  Originally it was gonna be on Pet Sounds, right?  Originally,  SMiLE would be a huge long verson of Heroes and Villians.  Originally, it was called Dumb Angel.  Originally, GV had different lyrics.

Everything changes, maybe there was a time when Brian didn't want Good Vibrations on SMiLE but I think it's safe to say that by the time the list appeared he envisioned it on the album. 

Wait...are we talking about Pet Sounds or SMiLE?

No, I don't think "Sloop John B" fits on PET SOUNDS. Nevertheless, it's such a great record that I'm GLAD it was included.

I do have a problem with it's placement on the record. On my mix CD's, I always put it right BEFORE "Caroline, No". You know, he feels so broke up, he wants to go home. Then he gets home and discovers that Caroline cut her hair...  I'm always reconfiguring the sequence PET SOUNDS, more than any other Beach Boys' album.

PET SOUNDS is the greatest album ever, but I can't help but think how much more recognition it would've received if "Good Vibrations" would've opened that album. Then there would be NO ARGUMENT about the greatest of all time...

SMILE -- someone used the tracklist for Smile as an example of Brian being forced to include a song on an album which started up the controversy over whether Brian wrote the list or was the source for it.

I think you will find if you check with Capitol execs of the day that there is no way a list like this would have been accepted, let alone pasted up and then corrected, except from the producer, Brian, regardless of whose hand wrote or typed the list.  And whatever approvals of the art and it's correction could only be made by the producer, Brian.  That is from two 1960s Capitol art directors, including George Osaka the Art Director of the SMiLE album.  Direction and approval of everything was through the producer, is it any different today? 

This is a none issue imo inspite of Brian's lack of memory of it.

Like Jeff said, if it were a conspiracy it would virtually sink the "history" of the Boys wanting to sink SMiLE [if it hasn't been sunk already]?  Is that where this is going?

Anyway, are the PS' tracklists in Brian's hand or Carl's or typewritten; if the later two, does that mean someone went behind Brian's back on PS?

That was me, and it's not 'shaky' at all! Even before Let's Go Away For Awhile there is That's Not Me which is about a painful trip to the city. The album is about journeys, both emotional and real.

I didn't realize that the keys are all ascending! That, in itself, justifies the inclusion of SJB as if it needed it, which it doesn't.

I actually don't think that's very far-fetched at all. It was done at a time when Brian was really firing on all creative cylinders, and still remaining commercially viable.

The accappella version is also totally mind-blowing.

Interesting subject. I actually had a chance to ask BW about this directly during an interview for my book ("Catch A Wave," coming to a bookseller near you in May! Sure to sell a million units......in May!) and proposed to him that "SJB" is actually a key part of the album, both musically and thematically, despite the folk tale aspects of the lyrics. He agreed, and expanded upon the notion in interesting ways that are in the book. To paraphrase the whole bit of business, it's important to consider the themes in "SJB" -- homesickness, displacement, yearning -- and ponder how neatly they fit in with the originals. What really strikes me, though, is how his arrangement (the sparkling guitars/bells/etc., the amazing vocal arrangement) transforms the evident sorrow into something so beautiful it sounds ecstatic. That's the same paradox that makes 'PS' so fascinating: the story it tells is pretty desolate (the progress from 'wouldn't it be nice' to 'caroline, no') but the music is so innovative and beautiful it sounds absolutely triumphant. To me, 'SJB' is a pocket version of that whole thing. It's the point in the album where the hero (BW) shows exactly how he transforms his fears and sorrows into something entirely different, and absolutely transcendent.

"Yeah, yeah, that's it, exactly." (BW)

Right on, Peter...to me, that thread runs all the way through Brian's work.
Take the unreleased gem "Water Builds Up"...if you were to ask any, and I mean ANY,
songwriter to write a song about anger...how do you think it would sound?  ANGRY, right?
Yet, BW manages to take a different approach and create something tuneful, joyous, and
in your words, "ecstatic", "trimumphant", and "transcendent".

Maybe not quite on the scale of "SJB", but the same principle applies.

C-Man

your analysis of Brian's "Water Builds Up" is among the best I've read of his work in a while. That is Brian Wilson's music in a nutshell: Even his angry songs have a thread of hope and joy. And his blissful songs are wonderous. That's why his music puts me on a different plane of hope and understanding when I listen to his work...or Love and Mercy, if you will.

Interestingly, I heard a radio interview with Brian around 1990 or so in which the song was mentioned, and he said that he had never been happy with the vocal, but had let it go and then lived to regret it.  He said something about learning a lesson to do it right or live with it the rest of your life- a very surprising one-time observation that I never heard him make elsewhere- but he's always been loaded with those.  SO what's wrong with that vocal?

I'm in the camp that once thought it didn't quite fit in with the album, compositionally, but I've lived with if for so long that it doesn't strike me that way anymore.  And it's such an incredible piece of work that it really doesn't matter.

I've actually heard the "designer keys" theory before, years ago from a guy who spent a lot of his life trying to sequence SMiLE; he had discovered a pattern and was trying to use that as a clue.  It's worthy of its own thread.  It would be amazing to think that they had the vocal versatility to record so well in pre-determinded designer keys rather than what was the most comfortable or easiest ot sing and (later) play.

Lindsey Buckingham observed in Rolling Stone years ago (1989?) that Brian's melodies always said something more profound than any lyrics could ever say- they expressed something that couldn't be articulated.

Maybe the French writer Marcel Proust could have managed it in words.  And he spent a lot of his life in bed, too.

I seem to remember having said this somewhere else earlier, but when I first heard Pet Sounds, I was completely unaware of any of the history surrounding it (I was actually quite surprised when I read it was one of the "greatest albums of all time"), and Sloop John B didn't sound out of place at all to me. It has the same sound as the rest of the album, and coming after Let's Go Away For Awhile (regardless of what the it is supposed to mean) makes sense, if you think about it. SJB doesn't disrupt the flow, because the instrumental winds things down, only for Sloop John B to re-energize everything, you know? And I've always thought the intro to God Only Knows sounds sort of nautical anyway.

Wow, I am very glad about this thread. Finally, the beauty of Sloop John B. is acknowledged.

I have converted three people to Beach Boys fans so far, and in two cases, playing Sloop John B.and making them aware of the delicate production and vocal arrangements was the key.

For the first several listens I had of Pet Sounds, I had no idea that Sloop John B was not by Brian Wilson, since I was listening off a tape of a needle-drop and had no song credits.  For those first listens, I thought that Sloop was the essence of the whole album boiled into one song.  O to have those first glorious listening experiences again.  I still think Sloop John is a great exemplar of what Pet Sounds is, musically.

"Lindsey Buckingham observed in Rolling Stone years ago (1989?) that Brian's melodies always said something more profound than any lyrics could ever say- they expressed something that couldn't be articulated."

Like Van Dyke said to Brian: "The feelings are in your music."

I've never been crazy about it. It reminded me somewhat of Glen Campbells "Rhinestone Cowboy" when I first heard it, a song I don't particularly like. Later I found it was identical with a song called "Jag Hade Engang En Båt" by a swedish singer called Cornelis Vreeswijk, which is very well known in Scandinavia. I think his version, which was also released in 1966, must be closer to the Kingston Trio's, it's simpler and more relaxed, better in my opinion. SJB is really just a three chord folk song and I don't think Brian's big orchestration suits it, something is lost, but of course it's now associated with "Pet Sounds" and that somewhat reflects on the song. According to the PS booklet they actually recorded an acoustic version in 65, wonder what that sounded like.

Søren

As for the 'even Brian's sad songs have a thread of happiness" the biggest example of that that I've been keyed in on revolves around 'Love and Mercy'.  On the original, there was this great harmony acapella or almost acapella part, ended with Brian's happy 'Hey ay!" back into the chorus.

I always thought that was so great that even in the middle of this pretty, beautiful, sad song, you have Brian yelling "Hey ay!" and sounding so happy... or at least TRYING to sound so happy.  I always thought that was very strange and beautiful.

Now, a huge moment for me in my fandom was when on the SMiLE concerts, Brian ended every show with that song, but a more simplified version of it without the acapella bridge part.  Also, no "Hey ay!".  He did this for years to end the concert, and you hear it on the bootlegs over and over again, several versions of the same stripped down song.

Of course in late '04, the Tsunami hit and his celloist Marcus died in the disaster.  This I'm sure had a hugely negative effect on Brian, but he got through it... after an appeal on Larry King Live for instance.  According to Brian he even sent his manager to Tailand to try and find Marcus in the millions and millions of people in that country.  Now I know that's something that never would have been successful, but I assume it's all Brian knew to do.  Going on Larry King wasn't really going to help anything either, but again Brian was just trying to do SOMETHING.

Anyways, around comes that Tsunami benefit concert.  Brian performs "Love and Mercy".  Lights come up, Brian's sitting on stage, on a stool, with no keyboard security blanket for the first time in years and years, right? Taylor's sitting beside him on a stool on one side, Jeff's sitting beside him on a stool on the other side.  They proceed to sing one of the most beautiful versions of that song I've ever heard, and then stunningly break into the acapella bridge.  End of the bridge, Brian, Taylor, and Jeff all in unison go "Hey ay!" and then break into the chorus to end the song.

Highlight of his live career for me, because like you said, there you have the tinge of happiness in a sad song, purposefully done in honor of a deceased loved one. 

I think the Beach Boys' version of "Sloop" kicks ass! Unbelieveable arrangement and singing.
BTW anyone heard Lonnie Donegans version of it called "I wanna go home"? Beautiful and quite melancholy. So it kinda would fit on Pet Sounds feeling-wise

Beautiful post, Ron. Couldn´t agree more.

Sloop John B sounds like Rhinestone Cowboy? Yeah right, and God Only Knows sounds like wipeout.  ::)

Obviously the productions don't sound alike, but I am trying to imagine -- take Al on piano in Endless Harmony playing SJB at the opening and imagine him playing Rhinestone Cowboy the same way.  I think that the chords and chord changes are actually similar.  I sort of see his point, however, the production of SJB is simply amazing.

I didn't say they were completely similar, just that RC reminded me of SJB. It's particularly the beginning. If you listen to the rhytmic acccents, they're almost the same. If you try to compare  "I've been walking these streets so long" with  "We come on the Sloop John B" it not's the exact same melody, but rhytmically it's phrased the same way, it also goes for the next line, but from there they start to diverge. However for me at least, those similar beginnings makes the songs remind me of each other.

Søren

I completely agree - I find a lot of Brian's music from this era sounds of the sea in some way. I remember listening to the backing tracks on the PS Box and the overwhelming impression it gave me was of the ocean - either sailing on it or, through some of the weird percussive things and echo effects, a sense of being underwater (especially Caroline, No). This idea fascinates me as, in the Elements, Brian would supposedly go on to try to capture the essence of natural things in his music. I think this is why a lot of his music from this time is so powerful for me. It just makes you feel like you're outside either in the sunshine, or in an ocean breeze, or in a forest. It's great to listen to Smile stuff out in the countryside!

I'm sure somebody used a phrase like psychedelic sea-shanty to describe God Only Knows, but I might be mixing this up. Anyway, I agree that SJB fits because it's nautical!

"I completely agree - I find a lot of Brian's music from this era sounds of the sea in some way."

And he finally perfected it with the Water Chant. It´s an incredible talent to take a bunch of voices and make them actually sound like water.

I love Cornelis, but that must be my least favourite song of his. I think it's horrible. Brian's arrangement takes the song to a new place, and I think that was a good thing.

Sloop John B features the best bass line in rock music. I think it's the best example of Brian putting the bass on other notes of the chord rather than the tonic.



 

I just want to chime in and say this has turned into a very good thread! I love the fact that the SJB bashers are, for once, in the minority. It fits it's spot on PS to a T!!! Fact!!!

I don't think it's one of his best songs either, I just like his version better than BB's, simpler and more catchy, maybe because that's the version I heard first.

Søren

Brian could have left caroline no off of Pet Sounds and it wouldn't of bothered me one bit.

 :o

That's why they call him dumb!  ;D

We have an awfully large number of trolls on the board...what happened to that one guy with the long-ass name?

You trivia-pwned him.

This guy isn't a troll.

With an easy question, no less.

My original CDR that I burned of Pet Sounds that supposedly had all the songs on one soundfile doesn't even have Caroline No! Took me almost two years to notice!

(must..resist...comment...can't...resist....aaagghhh....)

Why download the album when you can buy the bloody thing?  Download unreleased stuff, but when you pirate, you ruin it for everyone

I'm sorry, I have no excuse. I admit it; I'm a song-stealer.

I buy lots of albums, but the ones I think I can easily find through other means, I do.

Alright, let me try to get it the other way, then!   ;D

I love "Sloop John B", but it doesn't work at all on the Pet Sounds album for me.  It feels totally out of place and one of these days I'm going to finally burn me a copy that doesn't have "Sloop John B" and has the speed corrected version of "Caroline, No", then I'll have my perfect version of "Pet Sounds".    8)

Love and merci,   Dan Lega

Dan, it's your option to do so. But -- it'll be pretty darn short AND you'll lose the upward key-changes that are built into the structure of the album.

(Now that the key thing has been made apparent, I wonder if THAT is the actual reason for speeding up Caroline no?)

I still don't understand why it feels so out of place for some -- the travelogue-themed tunes began two cuts earlier, and the sentiments in GOK certainly seem to be 'arrived at'. By that I mean the character/narrator of PS had to get out and have some experiences, some very bad, before getting to that place where he truly appreciates what she means to him in real terms rather the fantasyland notions that started everything in Wouldn't It Be Nice. This in turn makes the bittersweet ending, where SHE has grown, changed, and in fact moved on all the more poignant, IMO.

I love SJB.  It sounds great on Pet Sounds.  It fits with that youthful angst and searching theme of the album in a whimsical sort of way.



It was the TITLE TRACK that was thrown in and doesn't particularly fit one way or the other.

I've been watching the James bond festival on cable and I think that Run James Run not being used in a Bond movie was a great loss to our nation and to 60's pop culture >:(

Okay, I just want to put in my three cents on "Sloop John B."

I really doubt that Al was THE reason that Brian even recorded it. I really think it was probably on his radar screen for a long time, but that maybe it was Jardine's suggestion that basically made Brian decide "Okay, if one of my bandmates thinks we should, then let's do it." Brian is known for wanting to do things but not actually doing them without support from other band members. [Cases in point: Smile, and a couple of on-the-road decisions in recent years that he was afraid to make without his other band members assuring him his ideas were okay.]

Dig...."Sloop John B" was a popular tune anyway. If you read Carlin, you'll see that BRIAN HIMSELF sang it before with friends. Also, didn't they record it during the Recorded "Live" at a...Beach Boys' Party! sessions? Which of course were September 1965; SJB was, what?, November?

Let's check something else out, too...

On Surfin' USA, the Beach Boys covered "Let's Go Trippin'" and "Misirlou," both of which were popularized by Dick Dale, and both are on Surfer's Choice, which can be argued to be Dick Dale's most popular album by far. (BTW - those of you who haven't heard the album, it's a different version of "Misirlou" from what we're all familiar with -- it's got the same double-picking twangy guitar and everything, but it also has a string section; and it's called "Misirlou Twist" on the album.)

And you know that "Fanny Mae" riff that David Leaf mentioned in the Today!/Summer Days... liner notes in the description for the original "Help Me, Ronda"? Well, "Fanny Mae" is also covered on Surfer's Choice, complete with the harmonica riffs. That means there are THREE things the Beach Boys did that were on Surfer's Choice.

Guess what song is ALSO on Surfer's Choice, including vocals.

@37: Very interesting idea. Though I don't agree with all your thoughts, I think this is quite realistc. But I don't know if Brian really listened to Dick Dale very much. It was Carl who was into that I think.

Did they? Is this on any bootlegs?

I've never heard of them doing "Sloop" during the Party ! sessions, and it's not on the SOT boot. Anyone ?

Sloop John B was part of the Beach Boys live repertoire from the start...a staple in their '62-'63 shows and that's because David and Carl wanted to add it to the set after hearing Dick Dale's version.  Maybe Al or Capitol suggested Brian record it...but the band had adopted that song long before Pet Sounds.

Now that's good to know. Thank you !

Mabe I should start a new thread for this one , but I'll mention it here as it was mentioned on a post or previously on this thread.
Re; Caroline No speed changing.

I don't like the slow version, Brian's vocal sounds.....well.. slowed down on it.
I've heard how Murray suggested that Brian Speed it up etc. But it sounds to me that Murray may have made this suggestion after the track was cut and PRIOR to the vocal being cut.
 What I'm suggesting is that brian cut the track , murray tells him to speed it up, brian does so and mixes it to one track of another multitrack at the new speed. He then overdubs the vocal.
I'm only suggesting this because to me the vocal on the slow version sounds like brian slowed down.
Of course I'm perfectly willing to be told I'm wrong  ;D
Mark L will know. if the vocal multitrack sounds like the album when played at 15ips then I'm right.  If not......I guess I'm dumb.

richard --

I have a similar theory about "It's Over Now." On most of the bootlegs, the song plays a bit faster than it does on disc 3 of Good Vibrations. Mark Linett [sp??] swore up and down that the song was mastered at the correct speed. However:
- Carl's voice sounds more natural and less...drunk...on the faster version.
- Marilyn actually sounds like a woman on the faster version. In fact, I didn't even KNOW that was a woman until I heard the bootleg!

On the other hand, as it is on disc 3, it's in the same key as Brian's demo.

My thinking is that Brian recorded the song in F#, but when Carl and Marilyn overdubbed their vocals, the playback was in G, so their voices are lowered when the tape is played back at original speed.