The Smiley Smile Message Board

On Andrew G. Doe's list of unreleased songs I counted 26 songs that were recorded after the Holland sessions ended and before the 15 Big Ones sessions ended... Sea Cruise and Child Of Winter were also recorded during that periode and the group had also already started working on Good Timin', Ding Dang, Come Go With Me, Shortenin' Bread and Angel Come Home... So that's a total of 33 songs that they had been working on between September 1972 and May 1976 that for some reason didn't end up on 15 Big Ones... That's gotta be a record number of 'outtakes'...

Yeah, there were definitely a lot of stuff they had worked on, but not that many were "finished."  Remember, the original plan the BB discussed was that there would be an album of oldies and then an album of original material.  Halfway through Brian said he'd had enough and what was finished to the point of being releasable ended up on 15 Big Ones. 

Also- There was a big question of quality control- Dennis and Carl weren't happy with 15 Big Ones at all. I think the original idea was to just warm up and get Brian back into the musid by fooling around and doing oldies-suddenly that became the record rather than the warmup.  Some of the songs honestly didn't deserve release- I mean Running Bear is a silly thing. You can't blame it all on Brian though- the rest of the group didn't seem to have many songs to offer. Dennis obviously held his stuff for a solo album. But where was Carl in that period- he wasn't writing much I guess.  Considering the potential that everyone showed in 1970-72 it is odd that by 1976 the only Wilson really writing songs for the Beach Boys was Brian

I don't think Dennis "held" his stuff for a solo LP. I think the band, or Mike with Brian and Al's support...decided to go in a reverse direction artistically to try to recapture the mid sixties feel. That was a calculated decision. Dennis had a lot of great stuff in the can, or in the process of development, none of which fit into the calculated mold. His songs were more progressive, more mature, definitely not retro. When it became apparent that the BB's were not going to use his stuff in 1975/76 he took four or five of his BB's tracks and built what became POB around them. But it would be entirely inaccurate to say he and Carl weren't doing much, they were. Carl was mostly supporting Dennis' vision, sometimes co-writing(Rainbows,River Song) and usually singing and playing on DW's productions. Dennis had a ton of stuff in development and quite a few finished tracks...they just didn't fit in with where the BB's were going...thank God. 

Reportedly, his submission for what became 15 Big Ones was "Pacific Ocean Blues". Can you say "sore thumb" ?  ;D

Wouldn't Let It Be technically have the biggest number of outtakes, although most are unreleaseable (insert 15 Big Ones joke here) due to the massive number of tracks they recorded at the Get Back sessions?

Right...that and Rainbows and River Song and a few other things were in the offering plate...all of which would have fit beautifully if the Beach Boys creative trajectory had continued Sunflower to Holland to something POB-ish...you see 15 Big Ones kind of messed up that evolution, didn't it? And that is precisely why we ended up getting a Dennis Wilson solo LP at that time.

On another tack, I've heard the argument made (and an alternate mix of "Had to Phone Ya" is compelling evidence to this effect) that the final mix of 15 BIG ONES left a lot to be desired, and there was a lot more depth to the tracks than what made it to the final cut.  Based on my conversations with Earle Mankey and others, I don't think it would have been a masterpiece, but I'm finding myself more persuaded that it could have been a much better album with a different mix.

I heard and heard of this type of evidence as well...and I believe Brian was being steered into a less progressive direction as well...therefore the more eclectic mixes or more eclectic elements of some 15BO tracks magically changed into Happy Days.

In much the same way that Morning Christmas sticks out like a "sore thumb" on the steaming pile of merda that was to be the Christmas album.

If there was to be a DW song languishing in his catalogue it should have been San Miguel - it would have found a comfortable home in 15BO.

As good a case as any I've heard for a proper re-release with a disc of bonus tracks, for everything post-20/20 really. We're reaaaaallllyy missing out on a proper post-Capitol collection of rarities.  I'd like to have the lengthier version of R&R Music for one, just so I've got a decent sounding version to listen to!

you would've thought the Sunflower/Landlocked period had the most outtakes.

San Miguel was much, much too good for 15 Big Ones.

But since it was done around the same time as Susie Cincinatti , it could've worked on there. 

ITA about the mixes. Really, the single version of R&R Music should've been on there, as the album version is limp.  I wouldn't count Child Of Winter, as I think it was recorded specifically as a single.  Good Timin' would've been a great song to finish off for 15 BO.

Correct me if I'm wrong... For Sunflower/Landlocked I counted 3 non-LP single tracks (Break Away, Celebrate The News, Cotton Fields) *, 5 outtakes that were released on compilations later on (San Miguel, Loop De Loop, Games Two Can Play, Soulful Old Man Sunshine, I Just Got My Pay), 5 outtakes that were included on later studio albums (Take A Load Off Your Feet, Susie Cincinnati, Back Home, Good Time, When Girls Get Together) and 6 unreleased outtakes (I'm Going Your Way, Over The Waves, Raspberries Strawberries, Where Is She, Won't You Tell Me and You Never Give Me Your Money). So that would make a total of 19 outtakes.

* Many BB tracks that were recorded as single tracks were included on the next album that came out (When I Grow Up/She Knows Me Too Well, Help Me Rhonda 45 version, Good Vibrations, Do It Again etc.), so I think it's reasonable to see these tracks as Sunflower 'outtakes'...

I don't agree. I never bought the argument and never will. A number of Dennis's songs would've fit on 15 Big Ones nicely.

I can easily hear the album ending "Back Home" - "River Song" - "Just Once In My Life". Easily. Or insert "Moonshine". Or "You And I". Sounds OK to me.

I have never read or heard an interview from the parties in question that Dennis submitted songs that were rejected by the group. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I just never read it anywhere. Other than message boards of course...

Edit: I better edit this before I get hammered, even though I probably will anyway, but....The Beach Boys Love You is an exception. EVERYBODY'S songs were put on hold for that one. It was decided (by a vote?) that Love You was gonna be Brian's baby.

Make that 18 ½  - the basic track for "Raspberries, Strawberries" was recycled into "At My Window".  :)

Well 15 Big Ones hinged on Brian being front and center. He wasn't up to it yet so thus the oldies and old styled songs from Mike and Al. Frankly I think Mike and Al were much more in line with what most people took to be Brian's sound. Dennis and Carl's music was too individualistic to pass off as "Brian's". So despite Dennis and Carl doing better work, they just didn't fit in with the party line of Brian going back to his pre Smiley Smile role. To put it simply, the Beach Boys could not be seen to be a democratic unit in order for the "Brian is Back" junk to work. As someone who isn't a big Love You fan either, I think Dennis, Carl, Mike, and Al should have had songs on there too.

Nevermind the band's politics, but "Everyone's in Love With You" has as much to do with "Endless Summer's Beach Boys" as "Pacific Ocean Blue", "Rainbows", "River Song" etc.

I don't think the decisions were so musically oriented, more like being made by those who didn't skip the meetings to go sailing. Sure, that doesn't explain Carl's absence in the album.

I like Love You, but honestly...there was better material in the can. "Everybody wants to live" would've been great, "Sherry She Needs Me" would've been also,  and if he wanted an oldie on there, "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" would've smoked.

DB, about Carl...when did he start using smack again? 'Cause it's like he stopped giving a sh*t. Honestly, there was no reason for 15 BO to come out the way it did. It's not like he was doing anything besides touring after Holland, right? All of a sudden he quit writing. Not that he was the most prolific writer in the world, but after writing "Trader", he didn't do anything until "Full Sail" and "Going South"...shudder. Oh, and "Angel Come Home", but that was actually a great track.

But that would've ruined the vibe that IS Love You. No oldies, no songs brought out of the can (with the exception of "Good Time", a song I love but which sounds so out of place vocally), a raw, honest snapshot of a recovering Brian Wilson in late 1976. Part of the greatness of Love You is that Brian didn't have to depend on "going back" to find material. "Everybody Wants To Live" is a great one, but the theme might've sounded out of place on the love-filled Love You.

Everyone's In Love is a progressive (if not a superb) track. I was thinking when I wrote my post about why it was on there and not the far better Pacific Ocean Blue. After all Mike did help write P.O.B. so he probably wasn't against using it. Again I would have to mark it down to style. Everyone's In Love has the Beach Boys trademark harmony sound on it and P.O.B. didn't.


I think Carl and Dennis only began to slide on stage during the last few months of 1976. I know very little about Carl's addiction but it seems to have started after he hurt his back in early 1976. From what I understand he was using painkillers and from there he seems to have gotten out of control.  Dennis was rumored to have tried herion in 1968 with Manson but he made it very clear in a 1977 interview that H was the only drug he never tried. Karen said she talked him into doing it on 12-31-77 for the first time. If that's so (and it does seem to be the case) then Carl was on it before Dennis.

The songs I'm referring to, such as "Everybody Wants to Live" were recorded around the same time as the songs that DID end op on LY. I referred to them as being in the can because that's what they are now...they weren't outtakes during the recording of Love You, they were just possible songs on the album. "Sherry She Needs Me" is an interesting case in that the vocal dated from 1976, but the track was from 1965.Can you imagine if that was the lead track? People would've been like, "Well his voice is still shot, but that sounds like a Brian Wilson production all right"... then again, "Let Us Go On this Way" was the perfect opener anyway.

And I presume that You Never Give Me Your Money is the Beatles song? How complete is that, and has it ever leaked? I'd love to hear the Beach Boys do that song...

I believe it's instrumental, piano only, according to Badman.

I'm led to believe that the 15 Big Ones fiasco was one big reason WHY Carl (and Dennis) stopped giving a shyyiiit...although I think that's a little strong.  Carl's statements to the press at that time were that he wasn't happy about the album, but then rolled up his sleeves and pitched in to support his brother.  His work on LOVE YOU, basically mixing the whole album down for Brian, supports this statement. 

I think Carl and Dennis were profoundly unhappy with the direction of the group from 1976 onward, and if you're stuck in a job that you once loved and now hate, you act out...that's human nature.  There were other factors I've heard cited, most notably Carl's disintegrating marriage and the refusal of the BBs to allow Dennis to tour solo, that probably also contributed.  I'm not excusing or condoning drug use, but if you put yourself in Carl or Dennis' shoes in 1977, having to go out and tour and do the dog and pony show in a way that doesn't stimulate you and that you can't get behind, it's really no wonder they started self-medicating more heavily.  They must have both felt trapped in a box they helped create, and once they stopped fighting and gave in to the escape offered by drugs, they had less and less power to escape from the box.

I remember reading a post, on one of the BB message boards, by a pretty good source, that it was DENNIS who pulled out of his proposed tour. The post seemed reasonable, except for the reason given, which was, and I'm paraphrasing "what if he was successful"....

Ed Roach's version: Dennis pulled the plug because Caribou wouldn't pay for a string section to join the tour.

Not allowing Dennis to tour solo and joining the Beach Boys on stage on his spare time wasn't cool, but Dennis could always have come back to the band some weeks after his tour was done. Does anybody here believe he'd be banned for life? He physically assaulted a band member and wasn't kicked out, for God's sake!

He probably didn't tour POB for the same reason he didn't deliver Bambu to the recording company. Maybe the real question is: How did he ever finished POB?  :)

Ed Roach's comments on the subject that there was a certain amount of fear of success on Dennis' part...yes, true...however Adam is correct in that in recent years there are credible sources who will go on the record in the new edition of The Real Beach Boy book, extremely credible, who recount an actual incident in which Dennis was threatened with termination from the BB's if he were to undertake the scheduled solo tour, Steve Love delivered the message with 3/5 of the BB's themselves in support of the threat. So of course it was Dennis who pulled out of the tour, no question, but his motivation for doing so was one of the things that some point to as an early nail in his coffin. What happened later is irrelevant because in the context of late 1977 Dennis was a hot commodity, functioning well, the album was selling, the material was rehearsed and sounding magnificent(I've heard the tapes, no strings but plenty of brass), the dates were booked...and THEN the threat was made which killed his momentum.

Mr. Stebbins, do you blame Mike Love for Dennis' death?

No...water in the lungs.

What is amazing and almost unbelievable about that is the folllowing:

1) Dennis, in 1976-77, was contributing no new songs to the group for their albums, no new songs to be performed live, Dennis himself sang no songs live (unless you count "You Are So Beautiful"), and could've easily been replaced by Bobby Figueroa on drums. I won't get into the substance abuse and on stage conflicts. So, why would they be adamant about him tagging along? I was around back then too, and I think you're overrating Dennis's contributions to the group at that time. People were not buying tickets to see Dennis Wilson, as attractive as he might've been.

2) A year later, Mike Love was performing and RECORDING OUTSIDE OF THE BEACH BOYS, with Celebration. 

3) About 4 short years later, Carl was "allowed" to release and tour, not one, but two solo albums. And I think it's safe to say Carl was more of an asset to The Beach Boys than Dennis was.

Something doesn't make sense here.

Maybe it's not so much that they wanted Dennis in the group, as it is they DIDN'T want him going solo ('cause he likely would've been somewhat successful...possibly TOO successful for their liking). 

I agree though that it seems hypocritical that Mike and Carl were allowed  to do the exact thing Dennis was forbidden to do.

I also think, based on what Mr. Roach has said, that Dennis secretely feared being successful, because the pressure would be enormous, and he'd seen what that kind of pressure had done to Brian.  So he had mixed feelings about his solo career.  He wanted it, but then again he didn't.  Besides that, one of the musicians who rehearsed in the band that would've backed Dennis on his solo tour told me that despite the band sounding incredible, in his opinion Dennis wasn't "ready" for a full-on solo performing career.

I'm sorry, but what the hell is that supposed to imply?

Yes, c-man, I have to agree with whoever told that reason to you. That seems more logical, not that logic has anything to do with it. :police:

Speaking of rehearsals, it's interesting that rehearsals were even conducted, with arrangements being written, and Carl helping out and everything - if Dennis was not ALLOWED to tour. Or were these rehearsals conducted before the vote was taken to ban Dennis Wilson from touring as a solo artist.

It does seem contradictory doesn't it. The Beach Boys didn't want Dennis's songs for their albums yet they didn't want HIM to record them for his? The Beach Boys replaced Dennis numerous times in the studio and on the road - as a drummer - but didn't want him to drum as a solo performer? Because of Dennis's damaged voice, his vocals were, should I say, "tolerated" in the mid/late 70's, yet, they felt him singing on tour as a solo performer might be too successful? I'm confused. I've gotta re-think this one....

I took it to mean Dennis' personality and/or lifestyle were not conducive to handling the responsibility of being the "headliner".  It's one thing to be the drummer for the Beach Boys, and maybe sing a song or two at their shows, then slip safely behind the drums again.  It's quite another to be the star of your own show, singing all the songs, and taking the full responsibility for the success or failure of that tour.  In interviews of the time before his solo album came out, Dennis admits to being very scared of stepping out on his own, nervously watching for peoples' reaction as they listened to his solo recordings for the first time.  

Well I think as late as the summer or fall of 1976 tour Dennis added a lot to the live band vocally and musically. After that it was hit and miss, but even as late as Knebworth his charisma gave the group an edge that would have been otherwise missing. I think when it comes down to it, Dennis was ordered to stop the tour because of when it was to occur. The group had just broken up and it was probably an effort to keep the Wilson's in line. Who was behind much of this was Steve Love. I think he was gone by the time Mike and Carl did solo tours, and besides even if still was there for Celebration Mike was his brother so.... Besides a P.O.B. tour would have shown the Beach Boys up, something Mike and Carl weren't able to do.

Oops.

I'm sorry, Craig.  That wasn't meant as a response to you. That was a response to Dancing Bear's implication that Jon thinks Mike was "responsible" for Dennis' death (Jon had, I guess by that already made his response). I meant no offense to you at all.  I just found Bear's question to be off-putting and offensive.

Mr. Roach also says that Dennis sabotaged the final POB mixes on purpose, for the same reasons.

I made a question, he answered. Life goes on.

I can list a number of your posts in my direction that were more off-putting and offensive, but I answered them as best as I could and moved on. I don't think this concerns you at all, really.

No harm done, Rob.  At least not from my perspective...

If that's sabotage, I'd love to hear the "good" version :)

DB, Rob, both of you guys need to chill.

does AGD still have that list of 15BO outtakes? could someone share it here please?

This is the list of all unreleased songs:

http://www.btinternet.com/~bellagio/vaults.html

Even if that is the case I'd still love to hear it, especially if it's Brian playing, he had/has a great boogie-woogie style that I reckon would sound brilliant on the middle section (Out of college, money spent...). Always felt that great piano part was buried in The Beatles' version which is one of the many reasons I was happy when the Rockband Multitracks leaked a few years back.

That list hasn't been updated in years - since BT withdrew support for their free webhosting with no notice. Thankfully, David Beard most kindly offered me room in the ESQ mansion shortly thereafter, hence the vaults list - and indeed the rest of 10452 - now resides here:

http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/ (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/)

More precisely, http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/vaults.html (http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/vaults.html).  :)

One thing...in the vaults section you have 'Ding Dang' in 1974, but in the shows/sessions page you have it listed as 1973, with 'Rolling up to Heaven' being in 1974.

Just wanted to point that out!

Thanks for the ESQ link, Andrew. I kept thinking..."when the hell is he going to update that BT site?"...lol! Damned Google Search (which until recently would only show the BT link when I entered "Doe Bellagio" into the search engine)!

PS - Not to pick nits, as Bellagio is favorite BB's research site, but the discography entry for "Ten Years Of Harmony" has the info for "Come Go With Me" backwards. That is, the original US LP had the correct, "MIU" version, while the US Caribou CD has the wrong one (i.e. the 15 BO's mix).  :)
 
http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/80salbums.html

I love just looking at that list. Were all of the titles recorded in some capacity? I suspect most are more basic demos, but still cool nonetheless to see what could pop up one day. A lot of Brian solo titles I had never even heard of previously...

Actually, I made most of that list up.

:lol

Is Andrew G. Doe Really Superman?

"I'm Begging You Please (B. Wilson) - 10/6/78 & summer 1978 - Brian"

Two dates eh? So there must be a studio version?

They did a version of Change Partners?

As rough as the performance we have is, I've always enjoyed it on a songwriting level. I doubt there's a hope in hell that the more fleshed out version (if it's finished) will see release anytime soon, but we'll see.

That updated list contains many unreleased titles from 1973-74 and the 1976-78 periods. Around half of these titles are on one boot or another, but there are many unheard ones! wonder the possibilites of some releases. One would think they should release anything archival, because it will yield at least a small profit compared to none at all. I guess they have their legacy, both as a group and as individuals to consider. I suspect much will be unreleased until they have all passed. After that it would be up to their respective estates, but at least their personal ideas and opinions on some of the music they made will not affect a potential release. Btw sorry for talking about this in such a product-wise manner. I do believe that what I say holds some truth, there is nothing wrong with stating that.