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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Sheriff John Stone on January 13, 2008, 08:06:10 PM



Title: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 13, 2008, 08:06:10 PM
I'm making a compilation CD of "later" Beach Boys' songs for my car, and dug out Summer In Paradise for the first time in a long time. Suprisingly, I found a lot of it enjoyable. OK, at least listenable. So I ask, could've it turned out to be a fairly decent album?

Look at the following songs:

Hot Fun In The Summertime
Still Surfin'
Strange Things Happen
Slow Summer Dancing
Island Fever
Lahaina Aloha
Under The Boardwalk
Summer In Paradise

Those are eight fairly decent songs. One could even argue that Remember Walking In The Sand be added to that list. Now, if you take those songs and get a contribution from Brian Wilson, you might've had something there. Brian had an album, Sweet Insanity, just sitting there, with no takers.

If you add Someone To Love, Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel, The Spirit Of Rock And Roll, Rainbow Eyes, and Water Builds Up, AND eliminate Summer Of Love, Surfin', and Forever, well, it's a vastly improved album.

In retrospect, I can see that Mike Love did the best he could. He (and Terry Melcher) obviously didn't have the goods to carry an entire Beach Boys' album. He just didn't get much of a contribution from the rest of the guys. There's probably a good reason for that; anybody have the facts/details on that?


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Aegir on January 13, 2008, 10:24:44 PM
Brian's tracks would've seemed way out of place... unless they were rerecorded with SiP-esque production.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: shelter on January 13, 2008, 11:22:21 PM
So I ask, could've it turned out to be a fairly decent album?

Yes.

If they would've ditched all the songs and recorded 12 fairly decent ones instead...


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on January 14, 2008, 01:30:34 AM
Am I the only one to like the remake of "Surfin'" ?  Great Carl vocal on the final verse.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on January 14, 2008, 04:39:10 AM
I like Al's vocals throughout the album.  Still' Surfin's about the only track I have any time for, forever. The songs aren't helped by the production.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Eric Aniversario on January 14, 2008, 04:53:56 AM
I think it's already a pretty decent album.  I know it's not very popular in the BB fan circles, but I've always liked it.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Shady on January 14, 2008, 05:14:33 AM
To be honest I can't even bare to listen to that Era of The Beach Boys, for god sakes what were they thinking????

It almost hurts, like the Frog Song by Paul McCartney


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Loaf on January 14, 2008, 06:12:19 AM
Was SIP salvageable?

The cardboard packaging could be recycled...

I always liked McGuinn's contribution, though.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Mr. Wilson on January 14, 2008, 08:26:36 AM
Yea AGD.. I like that version of Surfin ..altho it took hearing them play it live.. Costa Mesa  Ca 1992... To convince me..!!


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: melissalynn on January 14, 2008, 08:27:10 AM
I'm really not a big fan of anything on the album, although a few tracks may have been better if they had been recorded differently. Can't think of any specific things that could have made it better. I like the cover, though. That's about it.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Wilsonista on January 14, 2008, 08:39:50 AM

In retrospect, I can see that Mike Love did the best he could. He (and Terry Melcher) obviously didn't have the goods to carry an entire Beach Boys' album. He just didn't get much of a contribution from the rest of the guys. There's probably a good reason for that; anybody have the facts/details on that?

Correct me if I wrong, but I recall reading that SIP did was never intended to be a BB album - A  Mike and Bruce vehicle Hence the lack of song cntribution from the others.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 14, 2008, 09:24:23 AM
Don't forget that this was during the time of Al's first "firing".  He was brought in later to add vocals, including the stuff on the Euro version (Island Fever, Under the Boardwalk).  Also, this was during the time that Carl was heavily involved in the "Trio" sessions with Lamm and Beckley.  Say what you want about the material, but I agree with what Jerry Schilling once said...Carl could sing the phonebook and it would sound great.  The vocals by Carl and Al on this release were unbelievably good, and Carl slavaged Forever with his stunning vocals.  Forget the lyrics, forget the production and just listen to those two guys SING on this CD.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: michael on January 14, 2008, 10:57:27 AM
Funny Just a few minutes ago I e mailed one of my buddies looking for a copy of SIP, both the U.s. and U.K. version I mentioned I reqally liked it where as most B.B. fans trashed it.
Now here it isbeing mentioned,and with some of us not in a negative way.
I look at SIP as a GREAT Mike ,Bruce and Terry Melcher disc.With some nice Carl vocals.Period


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on January 14, 2008, 11:29:48 AM
Funny Just a few minutes ago I e mailed one of my buddies looking for a copy of SIP, both the U.s. and U.K. version I mentioned I reqally liked it where as most B.B. fans trashed it.
Now here it isbeing mentioned,and with some of us not in a negative way.
I look at SIP as a GREAT Mike ,Bruce and Terry Melcher disc.With some nice Carl vocals.Period

I actually like it too...sure as hell beats Still Cruisin and Stars & Stripes, which IMHO are the only 2 BB album I actively despise (although "Somewhere Near Japan" is pretty spiffy, as is "Island Girl", even though the melody rips off Blondies "The Tide Is High" in spots)


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Aegir on January 14, 2008, 12:29:30 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the similarity between Island Girl and The Tide is High.

Of course, I heard Island Girl first so I thought Blondie ripped of the Beach Boys! Heh, I doubt she ever heard Island Girl. And maybe Al actually ripped of the Paragons' version from 1967.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Awesoman on January 14, 2008, 12:42:43 PM
If you think "Kokomo" is the cat's pajamas and you'd like to hear an album of it, then Summer In Paradise is for you.  Otherwise there is absolutely nothing salvagable about it.  Although they tried to make a decent cover of "Forever", screaming guitars and Uncle Jessie singing lead kind of killed it.  But despite the wretchedness of the album they were kind of going on a focused summer-y theme with the songs.  So throwing in Brian's peewee tunes at the time probably would have contrasted poorly with the rest of the album of tunes about surfin', islands and beach resorts; thus making the album even worse, if you can imagine.  It would be in essence like puking on excrement.   :afro


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Awesoman on January 14, 2008, 12:43:25 PM
Am I the only one to like the remake of "Surfin'" ? 


I think so.  How does it feel?   :3d


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Awesoman on January 14, 2008, 12:45:22 PM
I like Al's vocals throughout the album.  Still' Surfin's about the only track I have any time for, forever. The songs aren't helped by the production.


Interesting because Al was only involved on one song, I believe.  He was allegedly "kicked out" of the band at the time; a sign of things to come...


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Jonas on January 14, 2008, 12:49:12 PM
Is there an echo in here??

I don't hate the album, just the piss-poor thin production. The songs might've worked out if they put some more effort into the recording...I have no problem admitting I like cheesy music. :lol



Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: shelter on January 14, 2008, 01:27:52 PM
No offense... But I think that if you like this album, you probably like it in the same way that a mother loves her 5 year old son's or daughter's drawing, no matter how awful it really is... Right?


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on January 14, 2008, 02:10:53 PM
Am I the only one to like the remake of "Surfin'" ?  Great Carl vocal on the final verse.
No, but then again, I also like Remember (Walkin in the Sand), which you don't, so... :lol


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 14, 2008, 02:43:55 PM
I like Al's vocals throughout the album.  Still' Surfin's about the only track I have any time for, forever. The songs aren't helped by the production.
.




Interesting because Al was only involved on one song, I believe.  He was allegedly "kicked out" of the band at the time; a sign of things to come...

As eluded to earlier, Jardine was indeed "suffering from a bad case of tinnitus" as the official line went, or fired  during the time of recording. HOWEVER, he ended singing partial leads on Strange Things Happen and One SUmmer Night as well as prominent BGV's on Island Fever.  In addition, the EURO version includes Jardine leads on Island Fever and Under the Boardwalk


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 14, 2008, 03:33:09 PM
Brian's tracks would've seemed way out of place... unless they were rerecorded with SiP-esque production.

You're absolutely right. The songs would've had to have been Melcher-ized, which still would've been an improvement over the Sweet Insanity production values.

The two biggest criticisms of Summer In Paradise (by anyone who gave it the time of day, which weren't many) were the absence of Brian Wilson songs and the 90's (weak) production. Well, the band was in pretty tight with Terry Melcher at the time, so that wasn't going to change.

So that leaves Brian. I still think the Sweet Insanity tracks could've been integrated into the project, and a decent song from Carl and Al would've helped too. Maybe even throw in "Crocodile Rock". I'll defend a core group of an existing 6-7 songs, which just needed a little help from their friends...er cousins. ;)


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on January 14, 2008, 03:55:10 PM
I'm curious, has Al, Carl and/or Brian commented on SIP?


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Dancing Bear on January 14, 2008, 04:34:55 PM
I only listened to SIP and Sweet Insanity about 2 or 3 times. Those were rough days for the Beach Boys.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Fun Is In on January 14, 2008, 05:24:51 PM
Only one word for that production:   inSIPid



Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Wilsonista on January 14, 2008, 07:15:03 PM
Back in the 90's, I made a mix tape of the best (or least esoteric) of the SI tracks with the new songs from Still Crusin' and treated it like a parallel 1989 BB album. (I even dubbed it THE SPIRIT OF ROCK AND ROLL which I put on the tape). If I can find it in the next day or so, I'll post a track list.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Mark H. on January 14, 2008, 07:18:20 PM
Sometimes no album is better than a "decent" album or a "salvagable" album; this was one of those times.

 ;D


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: MBE on January 14, 2008, 11:47:40 PM
I think Brian was at an all time low and the Beach Boys were too. That the fantastic 1993 tour came so soon after this astounds me. They could have done much better. Hot Fun is ok as it has a group feel, the title song could have been good with a more mature rewrite (ie take out Beach Boys references). Strange Things Happen is kind of competent, but it has to be (along with SI) one of my least favorite albums. I did find one of the very rare vinyl copies after a decades search and it added some warmth but it was still a bad bad album.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: matt-zeus on January 15, 2008, 12:58:22 AM
With SIP, there's a dependance on the almost 'Tropical' type of pop that Mike was doing, basically as previously said - an album of Kokomo's. The sort of album that might be background music in 'Weekend at Bernies' or something.
I tinkered around with making a 'tropical' Beach Boys album at a low ebb once, I grabbed some Brian solo moments like 'South American', 'Do you have any regrets', 'Sunshine' plus stuff like 'Sail Away' and integrated it with some of the less offensive tracks off SIP and 'Still Cruisin', it made for an oddly cohesive though vacuous listening experience!
In my opinion, SIP makes MIU look like Pet Sounds - though I do actually really like MIU!


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on January 15, 2008, 01:03:45 AM
Al only involved on one song?  Don't think so.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: MBE on January 15, 2008, 01:15:11 AM
With SIP, there's a dependance on the almost 'Tropical' type of pop that Mike was doing, basically as previously said - an album of Kokomo's. The sort of album that might be background music in 'Weekend at Bernies' or something.
I tinkered around with making a 'tropical' Beach Boys album at a low ebb once, I grabbed some Brian solo moments like 'South American', 'Do you have any regrets', 'Sunshine' plus stuff like 'Sail Away' and integrated it with some of the less offensive tracks off SIP and 'Still Cruisin', it made for an oddly cohesive though vacuous listening experience!
In my opinion, SIP makes MIU look like Pet Sounds - though I do actually really like MIU!

I have to agree. As flawed as the 1976-80 material remains, it still has a certain quality to it that their later work didn't maintain.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: mikeyj on January 15, 2008, 04:14:18 AM
I have to agree. As flawed as the 1976-80 material remains, it still has a certain quality to it that their later work didn't maintain.

It almost seems to me (and I am only assuming) that in the band's peak they were making albums cause they loved making music (of course they wanted money too) but it seemed that they were having fun making music. Whereas in the latter years it just seemed that they were trying to shove any old product on the market to make a quick buck. I think you could also add to it that, well what else are they spose to do for a living? They've been Beach Boys all their adult lives. Of course most people when they get older are rarely as creative as when they are younger and aren't as "cool and hip" than in years gone by, but during those early years (mainly 61-73) you can feel the love in the music and you can feel the warmth and care that went into those records (generally speaking anyway) whereas later on that feeling sort of disappeared from the music.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: MBE on January 15, 2008, 06:18:31 AM
Agreed I think only Dennis maintained that love consistently after 1973, though all had some good moments after that.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 15, 2008, 09:08:33 AM
I'm curious, has Al, Carl and/or Brian commented on SIP?

I have only heard one--a newspaper article in late 1992.  It was an interview with Carl.  One of those "the band is coming to town so we will interview the artist by phone" deals. Very odd that it was Carl and not Mike or Bruce, but anyway... Carl's quotes from that article (from memory, I don't have it) clearly suggested he was not enthralled with the album.  He stated that he did not see SIP "as a harbinger of new recordings for the group." In reagrds to the tracklist, "which contains numerous covers", Carl stated "I am more partial  to orignial material, but unfortunatley some of my partners are not so inclined."  He then went on to briefly discuss the TRIO sessions, which the interviewee said Carl was "much more enthusiastic about."   The question was asked why was he recording original material with Beckley and Lamm, and not with the BB's.  Carl stated that sometimes an artist wants to create music, but it just doesn't fit in to what your group is doing.  Hence, recording that stuff with Beckley and Lamm gave him a good outlet for his non-BB type material.   

Or something to that effect.  Wish I still had that article...


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Aegir on January 15, 2008, 11:14:20 AM
the title song could have been good with a more mature rewrite (ie take out Beach Boys references)

I completely agree with you. Summer in Paradise would be one of the songs I'd show to people when I try to convince them that the Beach Boys are cool (especially the UK mix with Roger McGuinn) if not for the lines about Fun, Fun, Fun and Rhonda and Barbara Ann. Gag. I can take being self-referential in a nostalgic song like Brian's Back or even in something like Smart Girls but when you're singing about the environment there's no need to mention that you're the band that sang Help Me Rhonda. Dumb dumb dumb.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on January 15, 2008, 11:51:52 AM
I still hold that "Strange Things Happen" would've been a good choice for a single. The guitar parts are cool, Mike vocals aren't bad (Al's are killer)...just a bit of trimming would've worked out good. Actually the music on most of the album is pretty good, it's the lyrics   that bring the album down. Well, that, and Summer of Love. I mean, really now.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Mr. Wilson on January 15, 2008, 02:22:32 PM
Boy oh boy.. Summer of love..Sucks rocks..!! LOL..!!.. When i played SIP to a friend he said.. The Beach Boys were TRYIN to sound like BB..!!.. Odd statement but true.. The lp has some merit but  im not crazy about it.. It is listenable but just too lightweight for me..


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Awesoman on January 15, 2008, 02:51:57 PM
Al only involved on one song?  Don't think so.


As far as the original recording of this album goes, yes it is true.  He was only involved on one song, "Slow Summer Dancin'".  However, as it has been mentioned, he was apparently involved with the European re-recordings.  I've never heard the newer versions of these songs save for the revamped title track.  I don't know why they went to the trouble of re-doing this album again even if the songs improved some from it.  It's not saying much when you go from "terrible" to "lousy". 


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 15, 2008, 03:24:09 PM
Al only involved on one song?  Don't think so.


As far as the original recording of this album goes, yes it is true.  He was only involved on one song, "Slow Summer Dancin'".  However, as it has been mentioned, he was apparently involved with the European re-recordings.  I've never heard the newer versions of these songs save for the revamped title track.  I don't know why they went to the trouble of re-doing this album again even if the songs improved some from it.  It's not saying much when you go from "terrible" to "lousy". 
NO...Strange Things Happen (maybe Al's best vocal EVER, but certainly since the very early 70's); also, prominent BGV's on the American (original) issue of Island Fever.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 15, 2008, 03:59:58 PM
I'm curious, has Al, Carl and/or Brian commented on SIP?

I have only heard one--a newspaper article in late 1992.  It was an interview with Carl.  One of those "the band is coming to town so we will interview the artist by phone" deals. Very odd that it was Carl and not Mike or Bruce, but anyway... Carl's quotes from that article (from memory, I don't have it) clearly suggested he was not enthralled with the album.  He stated that he did not see SIP "as a harbinger of new recordings for the group." In reagrds to the tracklist, "which contains numerous covers", Carl stated "I am more partial  to orignial material, but unfortunatley some of my partners are not so inclined."  He then went on to briefly discuss the TRIO sessions, which the interviewee said Carl was "much more enthusiastic about."   The question was asked why was he recording original material with Beckley and Lamm, and not with the BB's.  Carl stated that sometimes an artist wants to create music, but it just doesn't fit in to what your group is doing.  Hence, recording that stuff with Beckley and Lamm gave him a good outlet for his non-BB type material.   

Or something to that effect.  Wish I still had that article...

Thank you for posting this. There isn't much floating around in regards to SIP. But, Carl's comments kind of bother me. AND I'M NOT SAYING THIS TO DEFEND MIKE LOVE.

It's obvious Mike (and Terry) didn't have enough material for an entire album, hence we have the covers (including "Surfin'"!!!!). But why not get a song contribution from Carl? He was a Beach Boy, among other things he was a songwriter, and they were recording a Beach Boys' album. We had this discussion before regarding 15 Big Ones and MIU. If Carl (or Dennis or Al or Brian or David) offers a quality song at the sessions, I just find it hard to believe that Mike Love, who wants nothing less than a hit album/single, would refuse it. A Carl Wilson-penned song could've easily fit into SIP, if it's anything remotely like "I Wish For You" or "Like A Brother". I don't think Mike would've bumped it for a remake of "Surfin'"; just add the damn song to the album. The CD could hold it!

Also, it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, but, at that time (1990-91), wasn't Brian in conflict with Carl (and the group?) because of the anti-Landy/pro-conservatorship issue? That probably prevented Brian from going into studio to record a new Beach Boys' album. Did Brian get paid for SIP? I'm sure he collected a check from the next Beach Boys' concert - that he didn't perform at. As I dodge the bullets.... :police:.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 15, 2008, 04:08:44 PM
Agreed.  Run Don't Walk may have fit fairly well. As for Brian being in conflict during this time...absolutely. SIP was recorded in the winter of 91, Brian was completely estranged from the band.  carl was involved in the suit v. Landy.  This was the period (the recording) as the infamous Diane Sawyer interview. The worst of times between Brian and the family.   As for a check...yes he( or Landy, or his conservator of that time) would have gotten one in terms of album sales as a memeber of BRI. 


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Wilsonista on January 15, 2008, 04:31:52 PM
I'm curious, has Al, Carl and/or Brian commented on SIP?

I have only heard one--a newspaper article in late 1992.  It was an interview with Carl.  One of those "the band is coming to town so we will interview the artist by phone" deals. Very odd that it was Carl and not Mike or Bruce, but anyway... Carl's quotes from that article (from memory, I don't have it) clearly suggested he was not enthralled with the album.  He stated that he did not see SIP "as a harbinger of new recordings for the group." In reagrds to the tracklist, "which contains numerous covers", Carl stated "I am more partial  to orignial material, but unfortunatley some of my partners are not so inclined."  He then went on to briefly discuss the TRIO sessions, which the interviewee said Carl was "much more enthusiastic about."   The question was asked why was he recording original material with Beckley and Lamm, and not with the BB's.  Carl stated that sometimes an artist wants to create music, but it just doesn't fit in to what your group is doing.  Hence, recording that stuff with Beckley and Lamm gave him a good outlet for his non-BB type material.   

Or something to that effect.  Wish I still had that article...

Thank you for posting this. There isn't much floating around in regards to SIP. But, Carl's comments kind of bother me. AND I'M NOT SAYING THIS TO DEFEND MIKE LOVE.

It's obvious Mike (and Terry) didn't have enough material for an entire album, hence we have the covers (including "Surfin'"!!!!). But why not get a song contribution from Carl? He was a Beach Boy, among other things he was a songwriter, and they were recording a Beach Boys' album. We had this discussion before regarding 15 Big Ones and MIU. If Carl (or Dennis or Al or Brian or David) offers a quality song at the sessions, I just find it hard to believe that Mike Love, who wants nothing less than a hit album/single, would refuse it. A Carl Wilson-penned song could've easily fit into SIP, if it's anything remotely like "I Wish For You" or "Like A Brother". I don't think Mike would've bumped it for a remake of "Surfin'"; just add the damn song to the album. The CD could hold it!

Also, it hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, but, at that time (1990-91), wasn't Brian in conflict with Carl (and the group?) because of the anti-Landy/pro-conservatorship issue? That probably prevented Brian from going into studio to record a new Beach Boys' album. Did Brian get paid for SIP? I'm sure he collected a check from the next Beach Boys' concert - that he didn't perform at. As I dodge the bullets.... :police:.

Nobody's bothered to confirm or refute what I said at the start of the thread: I don't trhink it was originally intended to be a BB album.  A Mike, Bruce and Terry project with vocal cameos from Carl (not unlike Carl guesting on First Love). Al wasn't even involved until late.  Kind of hard to contribute those new songs when you're kicked out of the band.

Think about this: they were only a few years removed from Kokomo. It was still a "recent" hit and I'm thinking that Mike and Terry probably thought they'd found the new BB formula. It was Carl's perogative to offer or not offer material for consideration. Maybe Carl thought they wouldn't get a fair reading from Mike. "Gee man, sounds nice man but our fans liked Kokomo and we need more Kokmos, ya dig ? Not these ballads." If I were Carl and I saw Mike trying to re-create Kokomos, I probably would have held onto my songs and save them for bandmates  who showed more enthusiams and encouragement for them.

There you go SJS: you think like Mike Love, I think like a Wilson. :)


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 15, 2008, 04:58:01 PM
Nobody's bothered to confirm or refute what I said at the start of the thread: I don't trhink it was originally intended to be a BB album.  A Mike, Bruce and Terry project with vocal cameos from Carl (not unlike Carl guesting on First Love). Al wasn't even involved until late.  Kind of hard to contribute those new songs when you're kicked out of the band.

Think about this: they were only a few years removed from Kokomo. It was still a "recent" hit and I'm thinking that Mike and Terry probably thought they'd found the new BB formula. It was Carl's perogative to offer or not offer material for consideration. Maybe Carl thought they wouldn't get a fair reading from Mike. "Gee man, sounds nice man but our fans liked Kokomo and we need more Kokmos, ya dig ? Not these ballads." If I were Carl and I saw Mike trying to re-create Kokomos, I probably would have held onto my songs and save them for bandmates  who showed more enthusiams and encouragement for them.

There you go SJS: you think like Mike Love, I think like a Wilson. :)

RobMac, I can't refute or confirm your previous post; I just don't have enough information on the events/ negotiations. It is an interesting theory though; Mike did it previously with Celebration, Mike & Dean, and the infamous Looking Back With Love.

I will agree (pick yourself off the floor) with your theory about Mike and Terry "finding the BB formula" and beating it to death. Hell, Mike's still milking that today! And he's not shy about letting us know about it either.

But I have to disagree about Mike not considering songs because they weren't in the Kokomo vein. "Summer Of Love", "Strange Things Happen", "Slow Summer Dancing", and even the "Forever" remake are not totally Kokomo-ish. Summery/Beach Boys-like, yes.

When I think of Carl contributions that might've fit, I think of songs like "Full Sail" and "Goin' South". Or "Heaven", "Where I Belong", or even "Keepin' The Summer Alive". I'm not sure Mike would've vetoed them.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 15, 2008, 05:02:24 PM


Think about this: they were only a few years removed from Kokomo. It was still a "recent" hit and I'm thinking that Mike and Terry probably thought they'd found the new BB formula. It was Carl's perogative to offer or not offer material for consideration. Maybe Carl thought they wouldn't get a fair reading from Mike. "Gee man, sounds nice man but our fans liked Kokomo and we need more Kokmos, ya dig ? Not these ballads." If I were Carl and I saw Mike trying to re-create Kokomos, I probably would have held onto my songs and save them for bandmates  who showed more enthusiams and encouragement for them.

Interesting...There was an EXTENSIVE interview with Mike Love done at the relase of SIP.  It was done by the guys at the now defunct Cal Saga fanzine. At any rate, Mike did indeed allude to the "new formula" he had stumbled upon with Kokomo (and, Still Cruisin' the song, albeit with lesser success)...Mike on the intro/verses, Carl coming in on the chorus/bridge and the contrast of their vocals. He intimated it was not much different from the early "formula" of he and Brian trading off.  That is all over SIP (Island Fever, esp the original; Lahaina Aloha; Surfin'; even the Under The Boardwalk and Hot Fun remakes).  In the end, it worked once. Not a SUCCESSFUL formual, but a formula nevertheless.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: mikeyj on January 15, 2008, 10:03:02 PM
It's obvious Mike (and Terry) didn't have enough material for an entire album, hence we have the covers (including "Surfin'"!!!!). But why not get a song contribution from Carl? He was a Beach Boy, among other things he was a songwriter, and they were recording a Beach Boys' album. We had this discussion before regarding 15 Big Ones and MIU. If Carl (or Dennis or Al or Brian or David) offers a quality song at the sessions, I just find it hard to believe that Mike Love, who wants nothing less than a hit album/single, would refuse it. A Carl Wilson-penned song could've easily fit into SIP, if it's anything remotely like "I Wish For You" or "Like A Brother". I don't think Mike would've bumped it for a remake of "Surfin'"; just add the damn song to the album. The CD could hold it!

I'm sure you are right in saying that Mike+Terry wouldn't have turned down a song from Carl. I mean I remember reading an interview with Terry Melcher where he said how "Forever" shouldn't have been on the album and I think he even mentions that Stamos felt that it shouldn't have been on the album (not sure if that's true or not though? - I mean who wouldn't want to be on a Beach Boys album).

But I think you have to look at it from Carl's view too. As someone mentioned, Carl didn't feel that his songs fit in with the group's album. I really can't see I Wish For You or Like A Brother fitting in with SIP. I Wish For You sounds sad whereas SIP is Mike's idea of "the ultimate summer themed album" or something to that effect. I don't know, maby its just because I hate SIP and wouldn't want a great (or atleast good) song(s) being amongst a pile of rubbish (no offence to anyone who likes it but I just hate the album)

Here's a quote by Mike from Goldmine: "I asked the group and got approval for the authorisation for me to take a hand in the next album project, which is Summer In Paradise. Every song and whatever producer we would use would have to be okayed by me and I would have the authority to exercise what I felt was the most commercial and creative strenghts of all the guys."

Looking at it from Carl's view, can you imagine Mike gathering the group and saying that? Acting like he is the boss of the whole project and only he determines what songs are on the album. If I was Carl I would think "stuff you Mike, what makes you the boss". Of course I'm not Carl but I can't see how he would have been in favour of that. Surely the whole group should get together and go "Oh gee I like that song and Carl has that really nice song there etc.." and have a vote for what songs should be on the album.

Anyway, just after that quote he goes on about how it was due to his commercial judgement that "Kokomo" became a big hit. I get SICK of it when Mike always brings up Kokomo in interviews and says how great it was and it was the biggest hit of their careers. Okay, firstly it was number one for ONE week. That is still a good achievement, but seriously it's not like its the biggest hit ever by anyone. Sure I can see it from his point of view that he is proud that he had a number one hit so long after their creative peak, BUT seriously how many "Greatest Songs Lists" has Kokomo appeared in? I'm not saying that means much but it AINT THAT POPULAR!! (eg: NOBODY cares - well very few people care) And I can only speak from my point of view, but if anyone I know finds out I like The Beach Boys they seriously pay the crap out of me by singing Kokomo in a sarcastic voice. Most people HATE Kokomo or atleast don't think it's one of the greatest songs ever.

Anyway, there's my ramblings for the day. Sorry to go a bit off topic at the end there, but I just get bored of Mike always going on about how great Kokomo is.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Eric Aniversario on January 15, 2008, 11:27:07 PM
A Carl Wilson-penned song could've easily fit into SIP, if it's anything remotely like "I Wish For You" or "Like A Brother". I don't think Mike would've bumped it for a remake of "Surfin'"; just add the damn song to the album. The CD could hold it!

I love SIP, and I love Like A Brother in very different ways, but I shudder at the thought of having "I Wish For You" on SIP.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: MBE on January 16, 2008, 12:52:45 AM
I just think Carl (and Brian) really lost their real passion for leading the group after Dennis died. Except for Beach Boys 85 and the 1993 tour Carl stayed in the baqckground after1983. Brian stopped touring regularly with them in 1984 and after 1989 did next to nothing with them.  I mean 1990 was his last full tour with them, and then it was only because Mike was missing some dates. Also he was out of the publicity shots after 1989 too. Ok so he did do half a dozen gigs and some sessions in the mid ninties but it wasn't like before. I guess Carl didn't feel like his new songs would be done right with Terry Melcher and Mike at the helm. Who knows maybe they did reject his stuff.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Dancing Bear on January 16, 2008, 03:40:58 AM
I think BB 85 was the last album in which Carl was really trying. Maybe the production wasn't the most appropriate and Brian didn't offer his best material, but the project was the best that Carl, Al, Mike and Bruce could do at the time. And it tanked just like the last four albums.

The abscence of Carl's songs in Beach Boys records after 1985 probably had more to do with Carl's desillusionment with the Beach Boys than Mike vetoing his songs in 1991 or Brian not paying much attention to them in 1995.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: MBE on January 16, 2008, 04:16:15 AM
Well Carl's dissatisfaction is what I was trying to speak of. I was just giving examples of what may have made him care less. Sadly Carl's interviews became far less candid after Dennis died too. The last really good ones I read were when he was promoting Youngbood. I think Carl loved the idea of keeping everyone together, the idea of the Beach Boys as a group. Yet I think to keep this going on he sacrificed far too much, then again maybe he didn't care anymore. It's hard to say but at least from 76-82 he made public his thoughts that the Beach Boys were declining. Obviously he was sadly right.
 I read an article from 1975 that already is bemoning the Beach Boys reliance on old songs. In hindsight The difference between 1975 and say 1985 is that they played the old songs with a lot of care.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Dancing Bear on January 16, 2008, 04:57:38 AM
Maybe we put more thought on the Beach Boys' career decisions than the guys themselves.

PS: I'm not implying that we shouldn't debate every little detail of every Beach Boys project. My point is, the Beach Boys' modus operandi wasn't really carefully planning every career step, for example, Mike discussing rationally with Carl if his songs would fit, or who would mastermind the next CD. I think things just happened, with everyone doing their best to avoid confrontations. That day at the airport in 1977 was enough for everyone.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Smilin Ed H on January 16, 2008, 07:42:40 AM
"Run Don't Walk may have fit fairly well".

Carl intended that for the aborted 96 album.  Dunno who nixed it.  Brian?


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 16, 2008, 08:22:45 AM
It's obvious Mike (and Terry) didn't have enough material for an entire album, hence we have the covers (including "Surfin'"!!!!). But why not get a song contribution from Carl? He was a Beach Boy, among other things he was a songwriter, and they were recording a Beach Boys' album. We had this discussion before regarding 15 Big Ones and MIU. If Carl (or Dennis or Al or Brian or David) offers a quality song at the sessions, I just find it hard to believe that Mike Love, who wants nothing less than a hit album/single, would refuse it. A Carl Wilson-penned song could've easily fit into SIP, if it's anything remotely like "I Wish For You" or "Like A Brother". I don't think Mike would've bumped it for a remake of "Surfin'"; just add the damn song to the album. The CD could hold it!

Here's a quote by Mike from Goldmine: "I asked the group and got approval for the authorisation for me to take a hand in the next album project, which is Summer In Paradise. Every song and whatever producer we would use would have to be okayed by me and I would have the authority to exercise what I felt was the most commercial and creative strenghts of all the guys."

Looking at it from Carl's view, can you imagine Mike gathering the group and saying that? Acting like he is the boss of the whole project and only he determines what songs are on the album. If I was Carl I would think "stuff you Mike, what makes you the boss".


YES. That is the interview I was speaking of with Mike in late 92.  It was conducted by Rick Colville who ran the Cal Saga fanzine and it WAS published in Goldmine as well.  To answer the question, yes, I can imagine Mike doing this at that time.  It is not as if Carl or Alan was going to spearhead an album.  And please keep in mind I am the biggest Carl Wilson supporter around. As noted earlier, Carl indeed "checked out" in the late 80's.  And we cannot say an exception to this was the 93 boxed set tour...Al has been quoted as saying carl was against it.  Not because he didn't want to do it, but because he felt at their age and with their vocals they couldn't pull it off. Also, Al has said Carl was adamently against doing Vegetables on that tour because he felt the attendees just wouldn't get it.  Certainly Carl appreciated all of this stuff, but he did so in their context.  I believe above all else he was a realist, both about the group dynamics (doing his all to keep everybody as happy as possible, which apparently worked until his death) and about the future of their career throughout the 90's.  He knew SIP wasn't going to hit, but if letting Mike do his thing with the album in trade for a few days of limited participation would keep Love happy, why not?  He allowed Mike the same control with the cheerleaders and concert song list, right?


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on January 16, 2008, 04:20:31 PM
OK, this is what I came up with for the final compilation CD for my car. I actually find it  listenable, if not entertaining. Come on, it's not that bad:

1962 - 1964 done
1965 - 1966 done
1967 - 1969 done
1970 - 1975 done
1976 - 1984 done
and, finally, drum roll please... :police:

The Beach Boys 1985 - 1992

1. Still Cruisin'
2. In My Car
3. Radio Spot - "Hi, we're The Beach Boys, and we'd like to thank all the guys at KDWB...."
4. Hot Fun In The Summertime
5. Still Surfin'
6. Wipe Out
7. Slow Summer Dancin'
8. Strange Things Happen
9. Radio Spot - "You're listening to Murray The K"
10. Kokomo
11. Under The Boardwalk
12. Lahaina Aloha
13. Somewhere Near Japan
14. California Dreamin'
15. Radio Spot - "Wonderful KYA"
16. I'm So Lonely
17. Rock And Roll To The Rescue
18. Crocodile Rock
19. Radio Spot - "Down by the old mill stream, where I first met you, KEWB"
20. Getcha Back
21. California Calling
22. Where I Belong
23. Summer In Paradise
24. She Believes In Love Again

Notes:

- I left out "Island Girl" and "Island Fever"; one "Kokomo" is enough.
- "Wipe Out" made the cut; it's different, fun, it was a single.
- a couple songs from BB85 were on, then gone. "It's Getting Late", "I Do Love You", and "It's Just A Matter Of Time" are slightly boring; "Maybe I Don't Know" is too long.
- "Problem Child" just sounded a little out of place.
- "Make It Big" was the last to get the axe, replaced by "I'm So Lonely". I needed more Brian.
- most questionable choice: "Still Surfin"; something about it I like.



 




Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Awesoman on January 16, 2008, 07:08:35 PM
Agreed.  Run Don't Walk may have fit fairly well.


Nah, I couldn't hear it on that album.  It's a nice song but it wouldn't fit with the whole "summer" theme going on throughout the album.  It might have fit better on whatever album they were originally going to do in 1996. 


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Jay on January 16, 2008, 11:09:14 PM
I actually kind of like SIP. I take the cd out about once a year to give it a listen. I think that SIP would have been a damn good album if they took out "Summer Of Love", "Surfin" and maybe "Hot Fun..", and replaced them with "Still Cruisin", and  "Somewhere Near Japan". The version of "Forever" MIGHT have worked if they kept the backing track, and replaced Stamo's vocal with Carl singing it...or even Al.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: donald on January 17, 2008, 09:22:03 AM
I loved Hot Fun recorded by Sly.   I can't believe how limp and uninspired it is by these guys.  Some good strong BB vocal harmony and better production might have helped.   The rest of SIP is like watered down coke; slightly sweet, flat, unappealing, and disposable.  :P


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: southbay on January 17, 2008, 09:31:35 AM
Agreed.  Run Don't Walk may have fit fairly well.


Nah, I couldn't hear it on that album.  It's a nice song but it wouldn't fit with the whole "summer" theme going on throughout the album.  It might have fit better on whatever album they were originally going to do in 1996. 
True, no summer theme, but then neither did Strange Things Happen. You put Run Don't Walk on, you lose some of the summer theme but have a better album. Of course we could go on and on about this...
Also, re my earlier post on Al's participation on the original US recordings, I forgot to include his standout vocals on Walkin' in the Sand ("hey I remember").  That brings the list of songs he participated in on the original release to at least 4.


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Eric Aniversario on January 17, 2008, 01:47:07 PM
I loved Hot Fun recorded by Sly.   I can't believe how limp and uninspired it is by these guys.  Some good strong BB vocal harmony and better production might have helped.   The rest of SIP is like watered down coke; slightly sweet, flat, unappealing, and disposable.  :P
Not to get too far off topic here, but the Manhattan Transfer (who I don't really like in general) put out a GREAT version of Hot Fun with Chaka Khan on lead vocals.  It's on "Tonin", the same album where they did a version of "God Only Knows".


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Swamp Pirate on January 19, 2008, 06:27:15 AM
I saw the Detroit show during the 93 boxed set tour- it was one of the best Beach Boys shows I'd ever seen.  Carl playing the keyboards and singing "All This Is That" was one of the highlights.

SIP instantly becomes better by deleting Summer of Love from the CD and putting organic drums on the tracks instead of the drum machine which makes the songs sound as if they were recorded at a Holiday Inn lounge.  I thought Forever was one of the stronger tracks simply because Stamos actually played drums on it. 

Hot Fun comes off as a 45 rpm single being played at 33 rpm.
I'd like the remake of Surfin' even more if it weren't for the drums.
Island Fever is Kokomo, part deux
Still Surfin' is all right.
Strange Things Happen is one of the best cuts on the CD
Walking in the Sand- ehhhh
Lahaina Aloha- I also like this one a lot.
Under the Boardwalk- the 2nd version they cut for the European CD was better
Summer in Paradise- the live version on the MOM CD is light years better


Title: Re: Was Summer In Paradise salvageable?
Post by: Beach Boy on January 19, 2008, 09:18:19 AM
I don't mind the BBs later Stuff, especially the SC album and Problem Child. SIP ain't bad. The first 3 tracks are crap but they still can be enjoyable if you allowed to. Island Fever is beautiful, so is Strange Things Happen and Lahaina Aloha. Because of Carl's voice I quite like the new Forever version, but just because of that fact! Overall, his and Al's voices are beautiful. For example Remember Walkin' In The Sand has a great lead. Still Surfin' is too kitschy and Slow Summer Dancin' is the worst Bruce Johnston song, and that means a lot because besides that one I like all of Bruce' songs. That Under The Boardwalk version is lame. Finally the title song: I love that one, it's really beautiful, the US version is better. I would give 3 points for that album. But still I like SC and 85 MUCH more.