The Smiley Smile Message Board

I was reading about this tape on AGD's Gigs site, supposedly a tape of Brian and Diane talking about Spring from 1971.  I was wondering if this is available anywhere.  Was it a promotional item originally given to DJ's? 

On a separate but related note, I seem to remember a moment on the SOT's (I think its the "America, I Know You" track) where Brian is in the booth, and someone accidentally rolls the wrong tape.   A snippet of Brian on tape is heard, talking about the Honeys, as if it were an interview, possibly for the then-new Honeys single of 1969.... does this complete tape still exist?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qCxo-3K0s

Here is a little bit of it. While it's obviously unrehearsed, I think Brian's sense of humor and general normalicy on the tape were not to be found in later years. For someone who hasn't heard him speak much when he was in his 20's it's pretty much a revalation.

Fascinating!  Thanks for the link!

The tape was distributed to DJs as a promo for the first Spring 45, and I recall a US rock mag (Creem ?) did a limited reissue of it a few years later.

Brian sounds a little slowed down in that Youtube clip. Also, he still sounds crazy.

Well I have the whole tape at correct speed and he doesn't sound crazy to me at all.

Shane, I don't want to derail your thread, and I hope you don't mind if I ask an unrelated question about this time period.

It was right around this time when Brian was starting to go into his most serious decline. And I never understood specifically why. The only explanations given for his behavior around this time centered around Brian taking drugs "to numb his emotional pain".

On the surface, Brian was a multi-millionaire living in a mansion with an adoring wife and two beautiful young children. The group just signed a new deal for more millions; he worked when he wanted to, did some outside work (Spring, Jan Berry,  others?), apparently reached some kind of peace with his father (they wrote "Breakaway" together), and appeared to have a life that most would desire.

Ah, but what was under the surface? Were the voices in his head increasing? Did the declining record sales depress him? Was he really devasted by Murry's selling his songs or could he care less? I don't remember reading anything about him wanting to go solo or doing something apart from the Beach Boys. Other than his lust for his sister-in-law, was his marriage solid? Do I remember Peter Reum writing something about a series of nervous breakdowns?

So what was contributing to his emotional pain, that would cause him to leave the love and security of his home, wife and children to go over to Danny Hutton's house to fry his brain? This is a very frustrating period for me to figure out. Brian would appear to be a man that had it all. Anyone have any thoughts?

I don't think mental illness is something that needs a rational explanation to work its magic. While obvious factors can contribute to it, they're not necessary. The source of his problems might just be that he was experiencing sickness (mentally speaking).

I think that's spot on Luther. It's hard to understand a mental illness if you have never known someone has suffered from it, some things just don't really make sense. But even though Sheriff that you said "Brian would appear to be a man that had it all" you have to remember how much work he had done in the 60's and how much of a toll that might have taken on him mentally. I'm sure he was mentally fatigued and couldn't even sit down and appreciate everything he had done and everything he had earnt. It's just a fact of life that money does not equal happiness (you can disagree with me if you want but I don't think I'll ever change my opinion on that) and neither does fame.

No argument here. Money and fame didn't equal happiness in the Beach Boy(s') story.

The mental illness factor was also a complicated issue, due to the fact that it took awhile to realize and accept it. I recall reading and hearing Marilyn saying that Brian would show signs of being ill, then get over it and "appear" to be OK. And that's not taking a shot at Marilyn either.

That's exactly how it can be--and with no obvious, rational outward causes that someone could say, 'oh, this is stressing him out, this is making her depressed," etc. It just doesn't work that way. That's why I believe there probably just isn't much to look for in those years, something that forced him over the edge (and into bed). I don't think it's necessary to look for causes of the mental illness that led to strange behavior, antisocial behavior, drug dependency, etc.

And yet I can't help but wonder.....it's a chicken before the egg thing.....but.....

Did the drug use lead to the mental illness or vice versa. For example, did the LSD experimentation lead to the first nervous breakdown in 1964? Did the pot/hash/pills lead to the demise of SMiLE in 1967? Did the cocaine lead to what re-emerged 1976? And on and on?

I'm getting way off-topic here. Another thread. But, back to the original thread, when Brian first started working with Spring, it appeared - appeared - that he was in a good place. Working with the Beach Boys, working with his wife, living the life of ease, beautiful children. I'm repeating myself. Sorry.

No.

There had to be a reason why he was medicating himself. I'm going to agree with people like Reum and Carlin and say that Brian's mental illness would have emerged without the drugs. He was medicating himself plain and simple. The only thing the drugs did was accelerate the onset of his illness.  Remember Brian's great-uncle who watched the Wright brithers essentially beat him to the punch at inventing the airplane and then suffered a life of depression after being injured in WWI. Also remember Murry's bout of depression after being fired by Brian and Mike (and I'm sure Murry wasn't on psychadelics).

Excuse me ? The Wright Brothers made their first flight in December 1903. Johnny Wilson started building his steam-powered plane in summer 1913, according to Tim White. My math isn't the greatest, but I make that some ten years later.

Spring seems to be the last gasp of the original Brian in some ways. His music didn't really decline for several years but it seems to be the end of something. Maybe the physical decline that began in Holland and his lack of interest in the Beach Boys 1972 recording sessions makes me think things were starting to really change at that point. As late as 1970 he was making appearances on stage, leading sessions, taking care of his appearance, writing great songs. Except for composing less songs, 1971 seems to have been fairly productive too. He could still go out by himself without causing panic, he didn't make a spectacle of himself in public by how he dressed or acted. He washed. Only in 1974 do the really bad stories start.

My theory on what happened is that it was a combonation of things that had been festering. The Sea Of Tunes sale, the inclusion of Surf's Up on the LP of the same name, gradually getting more into cocaine (Carl once said it didn't even know how much Brian was into it until the So Tough sessions). I also think the trip to Holland was traumatic for him seeing as how much he liked being at home. Ed Roach among others told me Brian seemed very different when he came back. Then finally Murry's death.

Let's face it as I have pointed out before Brian was refusing to tour and putting on weight in 1963. It began very early in truth. The drugs played their role, and I don't think he would have ever gotten as low as he did get without them. Still something would have happened no matter what. It was the genetics, Uncle Johnny proves that. Marilyn and I talked once and she said the decline was very gradual.  The knowledge we have on drug abuse and mental illness is far greater today and I think even the brightest among us would have had trouble understanding what was happening to Brian or what to do to help him.

I think that it's quite possible that Brian had mental "illness" probably since birth. Even though nobody knew it back then. I think that mental illness is hereditary. I seem to remember that there was a Wilson family member by the name of "Buddy" that showed signs of what Brian would later develop as his illness. So, Brian most likely had some kind of mental issues "festering" long before The Beach Boys ever existed, or long before Brian himself realized it.  It took until December of 1964 for his first real breakdown. Let's not forget that by 1964, Brian had done in two or three years what most of us couldn't do in several lifetimes. Let's look at this from a math perspective: f***ed up Wilson genes+ EXTREME stress= breakdown.

Did Brian write Sweet Mountain? Also, is that song a Brian Wilson production or a Steven Desper production?

Brian wrote Sweet Mountain with Sandler. The 1989 see for miles reissue LP says Sandler, Brian and Desper all co-produced.

What he (and Jay) said. *



*Without the historical fact f***-up too.

Reading Carlin's book it was clear to me that Brian wasn't "right" even in his adolescence - several high school acquaintances seemed to have thought he was strange and he made them uncomfortable.  It's very common for mentally ill people to take drugs and then have their mental illness become more manifest, particularly with schizophrenics, and then it becomes a game of which came first, the drugs or the illness - I think in almost every case it's the illness first, which the drugs accelerate the symptoms of . . . I don't think anything specific happened in 1969-1970 to precipitate Brian's withdrawal/decline, other than perhaps the drugs de jour were becoming more dangerous (cocaine) and he was still being forced to work for the Beach Boys, which he had long ago ceased to care about, wanting to produce other artists.

According to Desper's book and Brian telling me himself he and the Beach Boysworked together well in the studio at least through 1970. I think the use of Surf's Up was the thing that made him loose much interest in the group therafter.

Did Brian ever elaborate why he didn't want "Surf's Up" released? But he sang on it (the 1970-71 recording) didn't he?

yet obne can't discount the fact that he was, as early as 1963 bailing out on touring. And he was also doing stuff with the Honeys, Survivors and other outside artists.  I know Bob Hanes has suggested that Brian never really wanted his family in what he considered to be his group and looking  at what he was doing in 63, it's kind of hard to refute that. As to why he started out w/ the BB?  Maybe it was another instance of following Spector's lead. After all Phil had started out as a performer/recording artist before he got going as a producer.

I don't buy that.  I know there are people who are personally close to Brian who think that, but I don't agree.  For one thing, most of the talents besides the Beach Boys that he produced were mediocre, at best.  Brian's work with most of those people was also not up to par with his Beach Boys work, even when he had a full corp of musicians, such as some of the Honeys recordings.  There was not one act among them that could match the Beach Boys blend, and I'm sure Brian knew that.  He'd been working with his family doing harmony work since they were kids.  Finally, the Beach Boys had always had some success from the start, later on quite massive success.  For someone as competitive as Brian, that had to count for a lot.  He might have wanted to stretch his wings beyond the Beach Boys and maybe even hoped for some success with those acts, but the Beach Boys were always his main concern.  He also loved to sing, and had talent at that, so I don't see the comparison to Spector as far as wanting to not perform.  Not go on the road, perhaps, but he still did studio work and even appeared on TV with the band until the events of '67.

Brian never wanted to be a Beach Boy? Where was Melinda when Brian needed her?   ;D

Like most of Brian's behavior, his involvement with Spring is also contradictory.

Brian wanted to work with artists other than the Beach Boys. He wanted to produce outside acts. Did he want to be like Phil Spector and produce his wife? Marilyn=Ronnie? Brian wanted to stretch out musically.

So what did he do with Spring? If you look at the actual amount of time that Brian spent on the Spring album, did it amount to a couple of hours? Days? A week or two maybe? What was his actual contribution? I read that David Sandler did the overwhelming amount of work. Is "Everybody", "Tennessee Waltz", and some of the other covers stretching out? "Sweet Mountain" could be I guess. BTW, did David Sandler have any further affiliation with BW/BB after Spring?

Sweet Mountain sounds exactly like a Love You song. I guess that record was the beginning of him heading in that synthesizer direction. Actually Cool Cool Water, from Sunflower (not Love to Say Da Da from Smile), could be the beginning of the Love You mindset.

He equated it to Fire somehow. This is what Mr. Desper told me

RobMac I hope my reply is taken in the spirit in which it's given. Further  I hope I don't sound combative in going against what you say but I do have to respectfully disagree with the Brian could have done it alone view.

Before the So Tough sessions he never devoted more time to an outside project then the Beach Boys. I think he did want to pursue the Spector path but I don't think that means he didn't want to be a performer. As far as 1963-65 goes as far as the others musical input goes nobody can deny now that they weren't contributing in the studio. That was a falsehood that I feel was furthered by those who wanted to marginalize the others. Jon Stebbins, Alan Boyd, Andrew Doe, have all done their research and it goes very against that myth. Even Dave contributed greatly as we can now see.

There is no statement he made until about 1988 that even half indicated that he wanted to leave. If you read interviews until that time, he goes out of his way to say how happy is with the others talents. One example is in the 1981 Les Chan tape. He remarks that he thinks going solo is a bad idea and that he likes being in the Beach Boys feeling something is lost otherwise. Further through 1970-71 he also says how much he enjoys working with them.  If you read many of his Teen Set interviews from 1964-65 he says in one that he couldn't have a better group of people to work with. In the Pet Sounds, Smile, Friends, and Sunflower era interviews he never once mentions anything about wanting to be without the group, and often mentions how important the Beach Boys are to the whole process. It is only in the 1973 interview with Record World that he first voices discontent with their direction. During the Brian Is Back phase he ran hot and cold sometimes in his comments, but the KTSA and MIU docs show him having a lot fun interacting with the others, and interviews with Pete Fornatlle and others are very pro Beach Boys. I need not repeat my opinion that Leaf, Landy, and  Melinda all made the situation worse over the years. That's highly contentious but nobody would say they were interested in Brian and the Beach Boys being a team. Even now I never saw him as happy in recent years. as he was on the rooftop in 2006. Ten years ago when the show was only paint by numbers I could have never thought this but Having seen Mike and Bruce more then capably do a creatively challenging show like they did with the Chicago Pops orchestra, I find it very sad that ego's aren't put aside so they could reunite. The remaining Beach Boys could do a great last tour or show that I think would be fullfiling in a way that none of the solo ventures ever could be.

In 1971 he could and did get a tremendous amount of work done in a very short amount of time. While the particpents stories do clash a little as far as how much Brian was there, that he had a big impact is in all the accounts. I don't think he constantly supervised or did too many mixes, he did arrange more then half of the album. Vocally and instrumentally he is certainly there far more then he was for Holland and So Tough. I don't think there were any songs he did nothing on. In other words he was fairly nonexistent on the mechanical end but essential creatively to what the album ended up sounding like.

Regarding Brian's mental state during the 67-72 period, I wonder how things might have been different if the Beach Boys (the other guys) were successful in terms of sales (more top 10 hits) during that period without him as "The Writer and Producer". 

I think one thing that probably affected him was that after he stopped being the leader or main creative force in the group post Smile, they weren't successful in terms of sales.  Did that put additional pressure on him? Guilt?  Or, would he have felt less pressure and maybe a bit more at ease mentally if they were successful.  Meaning they could all work together as a team "successfully" and not have feelings of  say..."Brian gets all the credit......." or "look guys we can't get a hit without Brian, come on Brian get in here and help..." floating around the studio.

Maybe not, but in general, I've always wondered how Brian would have reacted if the Boys were successful after his success as leader.  My guess is a bit of relief.  Curious to know how others feel.

No offense taken. In fact I don't think I was really that clear. The issue really wasn't whether Brian could do it alone (I agree wholeheartedly with you that he couldn't) but whether he wanted to do it alone with the "talent" being interchangeable a la Phil Spector.  I really shouldn't speak for Bob, but that particular theory was put forth by one of  Brian's Hawthorne-era friends.

sorry to set the thread back so much, but i am blown away by "sweet mountain" which sounds like it could have been recorded last week.

Very well put, and, needless to say, I agree with you.

While I'm sure there are fans who have enjoyed Brian's solo music over the last twenty years, I have this sad feeling that numerous opportunities were missed - for new Beach Boys' music and for new Beach Boys' happiness.

Whether Brian is really happy with his "choice" to be a solo artist, I honestly waiver on the subject. Because of the fine individuals and musicians he works with in his band, you would think he would be happy. But when it comes to the music - the actual NEW music that Brian has recorded - I often get the feeling that he could take it or leave it.

Thanks for reading my post. I guess I that a friend of Brian's from high school would remember Carl and Dennis as the kids they were then, not the creative artists they would become. Yet even in 1961 Dennis provided the Surfin theme, Mike provided solid lyrics, and Carl provided the Chuck Berry licks that defined the early records. It was Brian who was able to put it all together and I don't think anyone else could have creatively pooled that talent so well. Of course his musical and vocal ability's showed great promise and he was already one of a kind. The Spector thing is valid to a point, but I think Brian truly enjoyed working with the Beach Boys during their first decade.  I was just thinking about a John Tesh 1991 interview with Brian where he is very negitive about everything in his life but asked for one good memory he says working in the studio with the Beach Boys calling those great times.

That's interesting to think about. I waiver too about it. I think Brian's solo music improved after he got the current band together, though I do like 66 percent of the first one. Yet Brian sang with such passion before and I miss that. The 1995 GIOMH demo has it, the 1981 Oh Lord has it, but I don't hear it often. True most of his solo work isn't as route as say She Says That She Needs Me,  but very liitle of it is as commited as Love and Mercy. I find it sad that, with exceptions like the 1993 tour, Somwhere Near Japan, and the Paley sessions  the Beach Boys stage, television, and studio work from 1984-1997 was so cheesy but it was those glimpses that tell me that if relations with Brian had been better and egos were put on hold they could have still been great. With Carl and of course Dennis gone it cannot be the same, but if all the elements came together it could still be amazing.

P.S. to carl l: I agree strongly with you about Sweet Mountain 

Sweet Mountain is such a great and creepy song.
I still think Desper was the boys' best producer, I really wish he recorded the later stuff as well, as the early 70's was their best time as a collaborative group.
The sounds are so dry, full, and clear.

Well he was the engineer more then producer (though he had sizable input)  but I agree.

On the wider subject of Brian in this period, '71 or '72, maybe we shouldn't look at this in terms of "what was wrong with Brian" as affecting the music itself.  It's been said that every band has about 7 years before a kind of creative rot sinks in. This seems to be the pattern of the majority of 60s bands. Those which soldier on or who have sporadic comebacks often don't have decent new music to offer as they've worked through he combinations. Solo artists maybe can avoid this as they choose their writing partners and have less obligation. Carl and Dennis sustained the Beach Boys during much of the 70s but I suspect their versions had run their course by the end of the decade, Lovester or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect, aside from his illness, Brian felt he had "worked through" the Beach Boys by '73 and wanted to move on. The remarkable thing was how he did come back for "Love You" - even if it was a solo album forced out of him with BB help.

Well by the end of 1973 I think Brian had given up basically on life. Earlier in the year he made it clear that American Spring has been his main focus for two years. Which is why (along with how sporadically he was involved with So Tough and Holland) I think the middle of 1971 was a turning point as to how he saw himself career wise.

As to the seven year theory, I think it's interesting. With all the bands or singers I like I do have a definite time frame of what I think their prime was. For me The Beach Boys from 1963-73 were them at their best. Some artists go through what I consider several peaks. Take Elvis, he certainly had a period in the mid sixties where his career went off track but he made a full comeback creatively. Dylan too had a period in the 80's where he was not doing memorable material but over the last ten years he compositionally (if not vocally) is back on top form.

I suppose some would look at Love You and say it was a return to form for the Beach Boys, but to my ears it wasn't due to the vocals, lyrics, production etc. Yet if your talking about Brian's commitment in 1976-77 up to M.I.U, he was very commited at least as a recording artist. As for how that relates to the group, the 15 Big Ones sessions where very group like ( the last ones that really were for the original band) but the Love You and Adult Child sessions (which both had a much more interested Brian) were more or less solo with a degree of help from his brothers. I don't think he saw himself as a solo recording artist, or not part of the Beach Boys during that time, but obviously the group harmony that had existed over their first decade was gone and this was reflected in how the sessions were conducted.  In other words Love You was a Wilson album, M.I.U. was a Love/Jardine album for which Brian was active but less creatively involved.

Murry's death?!

Yes that's what I was talking about.