The Smiley Smile Message Board

When, exactly, was Carl diagnosed with cancer? I'm asking because I distinctly remember hearing rumors about him being ill as far back as 1995.  It was also around this time that he started to age, quite rapidly.

The official announcement that Carl had cancer was made April 1997, but it was very obvious that me, and many others, that there was something seriously wrong late 1995/early 1996 (during the January visit to the UK to promote the Quo collaboration, he looked just terrible). That the press release stated that he was diagnosed with secondaries indicates that the disease was well advanced. I've heard it said (well off the record) that the family knew mid '95.

Which furthers my theory that Carl's illness in some way caused the final BB fallout, as that may have affected his judgment.

Sad.

Is there anybody here who saw Carl in concert with the group around the time that his illness was announced? In Peter Carlin's book, he states that the group had to re-arrange the setlist to "work around Carl". I'm just wondering what that meant. Was he able to do a full concert without leaving the stage? For him to continue performing is, in my opinion, one of the bravest things a person could do. I have heard a version of God Only Knows that supposedly comes from one of Carl's last concerts. He still sounded beautiful.

My local paper carried a story after his death that was heart-breaking.
From memory it said for the last tour he (and his wife) had their own bus to reduce the chance of him picking up any bacteria. The whole day he would avoid just about everybody and rest/ recover then surface at showtime. I understand he sat for most of the show except for GOK. The end of the show he left the stage exhausted. This is from memory of the story only. Others may have more.

He really wanted that last summer tour IMO. :(

Kinda sad that the BBs still played "Fun, Fun, Fun" after GOK for example. They should have done more Carl songs or not so funny songs, at least GOK as the concert closer.

I saw them upfront (as close to the stage as possible) in June of '95, and my first thought was "gee I wonder if Carl's got cancer or something...he just looks so much older than he did even a year ago".  Saw them again a couple of months later, then in August of '96.  Whe he sang "Sail On Sailor" (which I'd never seen them do in person until then), he kind half-chuckled at the line "And my dying", which I thought was ironic, and wondered to myself if maybe he knew something we didn't...in retrospect, it is REALLY ironic.  BTW, he sounded great at all those shows.  At the '96 show, Mike's microphone gave out during "Do It Again", so Carl took over the lead vocal.  Saw them again on Carl's final tour in '97, in fact eight months to the day before his passing.  He actaully looked, I thought, a bit better than in '95.  He only sat down for maybe three songs in the middle of the set.  It was a slightly shorter set b/c they opened for Chicago (no, there was no "Beachago" set on this tour, probably b/c of Carl's illness).  Carl sounded fantastic, he started almost every song with his count-ins and his guitar was the main instrument on every song.  Phil Bardowell was there, I guess as a "safety net" in case Carl was too ill to play, but he stood in the back and just played rhythm guitar but didn't sing.  Carl was clearly still in charge of the band onstage.  If his illness hadn't been mentioned, I wouldn't have known.   Of course, knowing full well in my heart that this was probably gonna be the last time I saw Carl, I payed extra close attention to his performance, and tried to soak up as much of his vibe as I possibly could.  One funny thing I remember about this last show:  when Carl sat down, I could see his socks:  white socks, with black shoes.  I remember chuckling, and thinking "how down-home".  It just somehow fit, in a comforting kind of way.  When they left the stage, my gaze was with Carl the whole time...I just kinda knew this was gonna be the last time I saw him.  Eight months later, he was gone.   

I saw one of the concerts when Carl sat for a few songs but don't have the date. He sang and played the same. I thought he smiled more. The one thing I do remember vividly was that it was hot at the concert, but Carl still had on the dark suit with jacket, and was really sweating. But he never took the jacket off or tried to make himself more comfortable.

I honestly thought he was gonna beat the illness. The reports were always positive (I know, what were they going to say), and was shocked when the reports of his death came on the TV news. The farther away we get from Carl's death, the more emotional I get when I see old clips. I took him for granted. And I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes I feel selfish. Damn, why did Carl and Dennis have to pass away so young. My favorite group and two members die so young. Selfishly, I can't help but think how much MORE great music we missed out on. I'm grateful, though, that we got as much as we did...

It's not only the music, I think that Carl and Dennis had too the biggest hearts.

I saw the group in August 97.  For the first time ever, my name was not on the backstage pass list. No passes, no tickets.  I almost left before the show.  I didn't.  Stuck around at the backstage entrance waiting for my contact ( who was then tour manger Matt Shepard, who later also passed away from cancer) to arrive, hoping the situation could be fixed.  At any rate, the Boys tour bus pulled up to the gate.  I approachedc with security (who by this time I was on a first name basis with).  Matt recognized me and told me to get on the bus for the approx 1oo yard drive into the gates.  I actually sat right next to Carl and Gina.  Carl looked miserable, bloated, uncomfortable.  Gina was in very good spirts, even joking with me. They were on the bus with the entire band, minus Love, who had arrived earlier. Perhaps this was a different scenario than usual as the show was in LA. At any rate, Carl played the entire show.  He sat on a stool for the whole show with the exception of the opening Cal. Girls and GOK.   He absolutely wailed on SOS.  My last BB concert. A great night and a terrible night.   

I was supposed to go see the Boys perform  at the Woodlands in Aug of 97. I was going to take my then-girlfriend (now wife) to see them, but she had no interest, as she only knew of the BB from "409" and the like. We ended up doing something else instead and passed on the free tickets. Sigh. That had to have been one of Carl's last shows, if he indeed performed that night-it was late Aug. Now, with her being as much of a BB nut as I am, we often talk about that missed opportunity.

Last time i saw BB with Carl was Reno Nevada..Hot august nites 1997.. Ha sat most of show..sang I can Hear Music + Sail On Sailor among others.. Lead guitar solo"s were pre recorded OR..Someone in back or offstage played them..No amps on stage at all.. Cw was way overweight + wearin a wig + startin to grow a beard back.. Seemed in great spirits + seemed to be gettin healthy.. I dont think you get bigger from cancer ya waist away.. I allways thought he was sick in 95=96.. Look at stars + stripes video Or Live 95 Philly concert..As 2 examples.. Cw was really into clothes + keepin his hair lookin good.. Look at  these 2 videos + you can see his hair is VERY FRIZZY.. Not straight + slick..Chemo drugs..?? His face looks different +much older..AND..Interviews  in stars + stripes.. Id swear there is a sadness about him in his eyes + speech ..talking about SPIRIT..IMHO..

It's only in retrospect that I see something happening to Carl as early as 1995. I mean to me he looked older when he was all grey. Even on the late 1996 Home Improvment he looked ok to me. Of course in 1997 it was made public and it showed a lot, but now I guess looking at the S&S interviews and footage he seems a bit short of breath and perhaps slowed down. I don't usually cry when a celebrity I like has died but I did with Carl and so did my dad. It was just something about him.

Re  the extra weight in '97...he was bloated from the combination of chemo and steroids

Dumb question: Carl lost his hair from the chemo, right? Did he lose his beard?

Sure. Hair's hair, irrespective of where it grows.

I have to say (though I am probably wrong) it looked like a fake beard in a few photos. Never saw a photo of Carl without a beard after early 1977 myself.

In 1976 at an awards show.. Brian Dennis Carl..showed up to present an award.. CW has no beard ..clips from that are in Endless Harmony + American band..Rare to see him without a beard..!!

I remember that before Nashville Sounds aired, there was a short clip of Carl saying something to promote the video. He looked horrible, and his voice came out like a croak. I knew at that point that there something very wrong with Carl.

My wife died of cancer over a period of 8 months (several months before diagnosis.) It was a particularly bad type, with little hope of survival. She tried every thing she could, even a trip to the Hoxsey Clinic in Mexico, all for naught. The hell that I and my children went through is indescribable.

I have already decided that if I ever get cancer, unless it is an easily cured kind, I'll just roll over and accept the inevitable. Everybody wants to live, but we will all die of something someday.

I am not trying to draw a parallel between this and Carl, just stating my feelings. Sometimes, that's all you can do.

Sorry to hear of this tragedy, donutbandit.  A good friend of mine is going thru this right now with her father, and my heart goes out to her.

I think that was Feburary 1977 at the Grammy's

I too am sorry to hear that donutbandit. I am sorry to hear about c-man's family.

As odd as this sounds, I actually didn't know that. Are there any confirmed instances where Carl performed beardless in the mid 1990's?

Carl didn't lose his beard, somehow. Or if he did, it had grown back by the time he went back out on tour with the band.

Is it possible that Carl had beaten the cancer if he hadn't toured?

I don't think that would have mattered one bit to be honest. Cancer is cancer and once you have it unless the chemo works or they can operate you and fix you then you're basically stuffed. I'm sure the doctors etc.. did everything they could to save him or atleast prolong his life as best they could.

There are multiple types of lung cancer, most of which are very bad news.
Some respond to treatment, few if any are curable, unless found very early. 
Since symptoms don't often manifest "early", few are caught early. 
I'm guessing that by the time they found Carl's it was either too late for cure or an incurable type.

U.S. geezers like me may remember the early 1970s TV ads with John Wayne saying "I licked the Big C".....well, he had a good remission, but it licked him in the end.

The official statement said the diagnosis was lung cancer with secondaries in the brain. When you're diagnosed with secondaries (i.e. the cancer has spread to other parts of the body), it is effectively a death sentence.

Unless you are Lance Armstrong. But that is a very special case, and Armstrong was a young athlete in phenomenal physical condition. Carl didn't have that advantage.

I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that most types of brain tumors aren't very treatable. I think Andrew was right to call it a virtual death sentence. So, Carl KNEW he was dying, but he still played for his audience. Musicians that are that dedicated to their fans are very rare.

Fortunately for Lance Armstrong, he had a type of cancer that is highly responsive to treatment.
That was likely more important to his recovery than his physical condition.
I have several friends who have apparently been cured of testicular cancer at a similar age.

Yeah, but Lance had it everywhere - brain, lungs, liver. He was given a 0% chance of recovery.

It just goes to show that the phrase "mind over matter" really can and does work.

During my wife's battle, I, of course, did a lot of research. One idea that fascinated me was the technique of visualization. A strategy that was advanced was to picture the cancer cells as enemies, and use a mental visualization to eradicate them.  Such as a football team. I explained this to her, and she tried it.

A few days later, I asked if she had been doing it, and her reply was that her team was the Dallas Cowboys. She then added, "we have three teams!"

My mouth dropped open. My research had revealed the fact that there are three teams (or classes) of disease fighting defenses in the human body. I can't remember the details now, but the fact that she knew this instinctively indicated that the process could work. She gave up, though, and I could not understand why, until I tried it myself. It s an extrememly mentally demanding task. It almost seems as if you go into some kind of trance. I found the experience daunting and unpleasant.

Maybe a person could learn to channel their mind to make the experience not such a chore. Maybe this is similar to TM. I don't know.

Are you sure?

The below is taken from http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/oct96/lance.html. It does not seem to indicate a 0% chance, but a 60-85% chance.

"Lance Armstrong Press Conference

"Statement - October 8, 1996 I would like to thank everyone for coming and for calling in to hear what I have to say today. I have some news regarding my health to share with you.
On Wednesday, October 2nd, I was diagnosed with testicular cancer. Prior to seeing my doctor last week, I had been experiencing swelling and pain in one of my testicles and had coughed up some blood. On Thursday, October 3rd, I underwent surgery at St. David's Hospital here in Austin to have the malignant testicle removed and the surgery was successful. A CT-Scan was also performed the same day. The CT-Scan revealed that my condition has spread into my lungs and abdomen. In terms of degrees of the disease, my condition is considered to be advanced and, thus, yesterday I began my first day of chemotherapy treatment.

"I will undergo chemotherapy for at least nine weeks and then, depending on how I respond to the treatment, may have to undergo more chemotherapy or other procedures to fight this disease. I have the utmost faith in all the doctors with whom I am working and I am determined to fight this disease and to prevail. I would like to say a special thank you to the staff at St. David's hospital for making my stay there as comfortable as possible and for protecting my privacy until I was prepared to share this news with the press.

"Due to this consideration, I have been able to speak with all of my sponsors, with Team Motorola, and with my new team, Team Cofidis, prior to this press conference.

"My oncologist, Dr. Dudley J. Youman, was unable to be here today. However, he has told me that the cure rate for testicular cancer in the advanced stage is between 60% and 85%. Further, if I do beat this disease I have been assured that there is no reason that I cannot make a full and complete recovery."

Maybe Fox News just lied to me.

That wouldn't be the first time.

I had an aunt that died of the same thing Carl had.  She had lung cancer that spread to the brain. Once she was diagnosed with the brain tumor, she was given only four months to live. She died two weeks later. So that shows you just how dire Carl's condition was.

Given the recollections of those here who recall Carl looking unwell late 95/early 96 and the nature of the disease, it increasingly seems that the official announcement of his illness (April 1997) was made because the prognosis was terminal.

I think you've hit the nail on the head AGD. That's how it seemed to me at the time.

As long as they can function at a reasonable level, many people don't want to spread the news about their having cancer. They'd rather maintain their position in the world as a person than become a "patient" or "victim" in the public eye. For some it may be denial but for most it's a desire to maintain their humanity, personhood and privacy.

Which to me would also help explain why by 96, decisions were being made in the band more and more by Mike Love and Carl was taking a much more passive role (much to Al's chagrin) because he was already facing a huge battle in the cancer

Here's the odd thing, tho. It's true that Carl didn't want to make his diagnosis public in '97, but had his hand tipped for him. A tabloid reporter was "following" his mother-in-law Jeanne Martin and found her at the hospital with Gina and Carl, and that's how the story leaked.

Carl was suffering from other conditions in '95 -- serious back pain and gout, that I know of. I sensed something was wrong with him in late '96, but he hadn't been diagnosed then and wasn't undergoing treatment. I don't see how he could have covered up his illness in public once it became obvious he was experiencing the side effects of chemo and radiation. If he had been treated for something serious earlier, it would have to be something where the treatment didn't show obvious side effects.