The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://aeijtzsche.blogspot.com/ (http://aeijtzsche.blogspot.com/)

Edit:  Just added a new essay that talks about how I developed a understanding of Mike's "idiosyncrasies".

Naw..Not board at all..Keep em comin..!!

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Thank you for posting it; I basically agree with everything you wrote. Like you, I've also been able to empathize with Mike. In my case, it's probably because I agree(d) with Mike's position on a lot of the issues. Not all of them (SMiLE being a glaring one), but most of them. I also think that Mike gets blamed for holding positions that I believe most of the other guys in the group shared, but didn't admit. Yeah, the money was a big motivating factor for Mike Love, but I was always amazed how he put up with all the craziness; I know I would've knocked a couple of people out.

Mike should be pumping gas somewhere - but he would have to move to Oregon to do so.

Nobody should be pumping gas, anywhere.

Hey I liked that a lot. Very much my views.

I have been a GEEK type fan since the 60's and I have never understood the "loyal to Brian" OR "loyal to Mike" camps.....WHY can people not admit that if they love THE BEACH BOYS, that both were essential in getting a foothold with the early car and beach sound?

I enjoyed reading that. I think a lot of fans are like you, in that when they first get into the BBs, they subscribe to the "Brian good/Mike bad" idea. I certainly did. It's the simplest way of looking at the band, and it's easy to believe when you first start learning their story.

I agree with a lot of what you said, although I wouldn't say I have any affection for Mike. I do have sympathy for him, because I believe that Brian isn't the only one with deep psychological issues. Mike is a Wilson too, after all. I believe someone (a book? a message board poster?) once pointed out that when Mike got kicked out of his family, the BBs became his family, and in this sense, it's been hard for him to let go. It was hard for him to see Brian changing, even when Brian was growing. It was hard for him to see Brian (in his eyes) reject the BBs and him. Mike holds onto the early days because they were a happy time when his adopted family loved and accepted one another.

On the other hand, Mike's issues have done nothing to heal the rifts among the BBs. (Just as Brian's haven't, but you know, Brian has acknowledged that he has problems.) Sometimes I wish that he could do a little soul searching and put aside his issues enough to be happy for Brian--to listen to BWPS, since it's his cousin's greatest work, for example. I wish he wouldn't always feel the need to mention the drugs and other problems Brian and Dennis have/had in the same breath he talks about their talent. I wish he wouldn't contast himself favorably as the positive one, when we'd all have much more sympathy for him if he'd acknowledge his own issues. But that doesn't mean that I don't feel for Mike. You really do have to look at the root of his behavior, as you have, Aeijtzsche. Maybe, just as when Brian acts out, we  look at his behavior in the context of his past with Murry, when Mike acts out, we can look at his behavior in the context of his past as well.

There's a YouTube somewhere of an interview done while Brian was in Landy's clutches. Mike talks about his love for Brian and starts to cry. There's a deep, deep love there. He just doesn't always know how to express it appropriately.

Going to go read it right now. Glad you posted it, I was looking forward to it  8)

I've gotta say I agree with the blog. He's under-rated as frontman, his lyrical ability is great and his biggest mistake was sticking (to use a well worn term) to the "formula" in some peoples eyes. But if the formula's successful - why change it? Fair point he should have loosened up a little with the use of other collaborators but at the end of the day he was looking out for his band, his cousin and of course himself. I may have done the same if I was in his shoes.  :smokin

Great job!  :thumbsup

Best sentence I've read for a while.

I don't think everyone is greedy. Most people are and I certainly am in a lot of ways but there are plenty of people out there who are giving money to charity or giving up their time caring for people with disabilities etc..

I don't understand these two sentences? SMiLE never came out and so how would Brian know that "he still needed" Mike's lyrics from a commercial point of view? And Pet Sounds wasn't exactly a failure as some people make out (#10 is still a pretty respectable chart position).

Other than that I really enjoyed the essay. I agree with Amy B. in that I don't have much affection for Mike but I can see where Mike is coming from in a lot of ways. I mean if I was in Mike's position when Brian largely stopped writing with him, then I would be pretty frustrated too... I mean who wouldn't want to write lyrics for some of the most beautiful music ever created?

That "still needing Mike" line would be from Mike's perspective, not mine.  I didn't make it clear, perhaps, but I'm speculating that Mike felt that Smile's non-materialization would lead Brian back to him.

I think that my signature may be the quote you were referring to

Indeed it is.

I agree with most of what you said, although I never really fell into the "mike bad/Brian good" trap at any time, and I tend to think that Mike actually thinks he's being therapeudic when he sues Brian.  He's said it in about every court case, and hell I believe him. 

I think Mike deeply loves Brian, and vice versa.  Mike has sued Brian, and with possibly the exception of the last lawsuit (and I believe even that one, Mike felt he was in the right on)... with the exception of that one, I think Mike probably did get the bad end of the stick.  I think that he feels when he sues Brian, since Brian has an entourage he's really striking out at the people surrounding and controlling Brian (and Brian, in my opinion, does have people control him and needs people to control him! he's mentally ill!). 

Like the songwriting credit thing.  Mike apparently said in court (I read a transcript from someone who claimed to be there) that all he wanted was for Brian to give him some nominal amount, and to fix the credits.  I honestly believe that.  Mike Love doesn't spent a ton of money or live some huge flashly expensive lifestyle, I don't think the guy is out to get every dollar he can... I think he honestly just felt slighted, and hell he WAS slighted.  So according to the account of the trial, Mike apparently told the court that Brian's lawyers forced it to trial so they could all make money off Brian... and Mike ended up getting about 4 times the amount he originally was asking for from Brian because his lawyers took it to court.  I think Mike's probably right in that... and I think he feels that he's actually HELPING Brian when he sues him!  I think Mike subscribes to the notion of "Tough Love" (No pun intended!).  You can hear it everytime he talks about it, he takes this attitude that Brian's being manipulated, and even today he acts like he misses Brian and such. 

I saw Mike Love in concert 1 time.  It was about 98 or so, and he made sure to thank Brian while he was on stage and didn't say 1 bad thing about him... now I know he's said a lot of OTHER things, but the man isn't going out of his way to be an ass.  He just feels strongly about his point of view and doesn't mind pissing people off.  I have no problems with Mike.

On a professional level, I think at the present his stage voice is shot, but he's definately one of the necessary ingredients in the Beach Boys.  In the early music, he was irreplacable and more times than not, his vocal is my favorite part of the song.  Even stuff like "Add Some Music" which was much more sophisticated and developed, he just totally steals the show.  Great singer, and since he's been touring, leading the band non-stop since about '63, anybody would have to admit he's one of the greatest front men of all time. 

Can someone please address the TV movie and where it fits into all of this? I know Mike was involved, and apparently it distorted the truth to be more favorable to Mike and paint Brian in a bad light. I have to say, I've never seen the movie, but when I heard about it, it just sounded like a horrible thing to have done. But then, maybe Mike wasn't as involved as I thought.

What's the real story, and where does it fit in with all this speculation about Mike?

Mike was a consultant on the movie and said in ESQ  that there were things in it he didn't like seeing. He didn't write it or have final say but he (like Brian) was involved. Van Dyke Parks overracted to the situation because Mike did come off much better overall then Brian and wrote a diatribe against Mike which caused me to change my opinion of Parks. In fact Parks' actions may have been the root of me understanding, if not always agreeing with,  Mike's point of view. I think 80 percent of Mike's artistic descisions after 1973 are poor, but that doesn't take away from how vital he was to the groups sound up to that point.

I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up :)

Sounds like Andy Kaufman!

Speaking of which, when I watched his Hall of Fame speach where he started trash talking the Rolling Stones and Beatles, I get the impression that he was just trying to be funny. Of course he came off looking like a jerk.

MIKE LOVE = original shock joke (re-hall of fame speech)

This board has come a long way in its thinking about Mike Love; congratulations and keep up the good work.

If not for Brian Wilson, nobody would even know the name of Mike Love. Because Brian thrust him into stardom, some still try to defend his very meager talents. He fronted a major rock 'n' roll band, got to write lyrics for some of the greatest songs ever written, and has become a major star and a major asshole. Without Brian Wilson, Mike Love would have probably worked out his life in a factory. Today, he would probably be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter. That's how much this board should acknowledge Mike Love's talent. Brian gave him a chance to display what little there was of it.

Where's Sebastian when we need him?  :-D

If not for Brian Wilson, no one would know the names of Carl, Dennis, Al, David, Bruce, et cetera, either.  "got to write lyrics for some of the greatest songs ever written"? Pfft. And Brian got to write music for some of the greatest songs ever written.

I totally agree Aegir. You could argue without Mike, Brian might not have been as famous. His lead vocals really helped the band along in their early days and although he has come up with some total piles of trash in terms of lyrics, he has written some wonderful lyrics. Think of the B-side of Today! for example

You have no way of knowing 1 thing you just said, because it's all speculation.  REALITY shows us that Mike Love is an extremely successful musician who's written some of the greatest songs of all time.  That's reality.  I'll take reality over speculation any day of the week. 

Sebastian can stay right where he is, thank you very much.

He wore some great turbans in the past.

 :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

(If not for Brian Wilson, nobody would even know the name of Mike Love. Because Brian thrust him into stardom, some still try to defend his very meager talents. He fronted a major rock 'n' roll band, got to write lyrics for some of the greatest songs ever written, and has become a major star and a major furo do burro. Without Brian Wilson, Mike Love would have probably worked out his life in a factory. Today, he would probably be working at Wal-Mart as a greeter. That's how much this board should acknowledge Mike Love's talent. Brian gave him a chance to display what little there was of it.)

Man, if my thirteen year-old self could see my 33 year old self defending Mike he'd probably cry, but here goes...
    While its true that BW would likely have made some impression on music, without Mike and Denny he probably would not have made the impact he has. BW would have been a big easy-listening type of star, not the mainstream pop star he became. Mike was the guy that took BW's melodic ideas and turned them into songs that kids could relate to. That might not be the aspect of the BB we like the best, but it's the part that made them famous, and it's why we have so many beautiful albums to listen to. BW by himself would have been thrown off the label after two or three unsuccesful records. They would have been amazing records, but not relatable to the kids. So give Mike his due.

If it weren't for Brian. or Alan, who would know Mike Love's name?

Mike jumped on as a nasally singer. Where would he be otherwise? Did he have the talent or the vision to create a rock group?

If Brian or Al (or both) hadn't made contact with Hite Morgan, nobody today would even know who Mike Love is.

I believe that Mike Love definately had an important roll in the Beach Boys success. Maybe he didn't have a lot of creativity or talent, but niether did Dennis in the early days. Yet, Mike and Dennis gave the band charisma. Think about it, Brian, Carl, Al and David were fairly boring on stage in the early days. But Mike and Dennis were always good performers.

Mike was also very good at coming up with hooks that made songs more comercial (and not as good - just kidding - or not).

I believe that Brian could've been a semi-succesful solo artist. But it would never have made the impact that he was able to make with the other guys.

Although, I do agree that Mike couldn't do anything on his own, I think he could've been succesful without Brian. Not by himself, but with another decent songwriter.

"I'll easily concede that Mike Love does not have the musical genius of Brian Wilson, the musical vision of Dennis Wilson, or the big ears and solid chops of Carl Wilson. He may not even have the musical skills of Al Jardine." - Josh Hoisington

He isn't even arguing that Mike was the most talented. He's arguing that Mike is an interesting character.  What he was great at was recognizing talent and selling it. Part of singing a song is "selling" the sentiments within. And from 62-65, Mike and Brian were the best in the BB at selling those songs. Ever imagine how I Get Around would sound with Sweet Angel Voiced Carl boasting about how much of a Badass he was?  It would prolly make America sound like Zeppelin. Mike and Bri were the Ying and the Yang of Classic BB.  Mike in the glory days was one of Brian's biggest cheerleaders (Dennis being the other) by virtue of his spirited lead vocals.  Would Brian have been better off without Mike? Hypotheticals are just that - hypothetical. At this point, I'm sick of debating his role or non-role in what happened to the band from SMiLE onward. I'm sick of debating the lawsuits and the slights and the smarmy interviews.  Mike was probably the biggest fan of the group known as the BB.  Maybe it's not so much the need to make a living or the money or the acclaim that makes him want to hang onto the BB name.   Having the  name taken away fom him might mean that something he treasured was now gone indefinitely.  Maybe when he sings California Girls onstage today , somehow he feels as if Brian, Dennis, Carl and a Al that he got along with are still with him.  I used to hate "Brian's Back" with a passion, dismissing it as a smarmy, insincere piece of sh*t.  But after reading H's blog, I've kinda warmed to the sentiments of the song.  It wasn't easy for any of these guys living the lives they've led. Mike's scars are different from Brian's  for sure but they are scars just the same.

Let's just say that the BB would have been radically different without Mike Love and leave it at that.  

No Mike, no Beach boys.

(http://s.yottamusic.com/i/ajTq.5UyD)

Great shot. He looked nutty in the beard but somehow it works.

The argument - where would Mike Love be without Brian Wilson - is a ridiculous one. Or vice versa. It is impossible to know. Yes, you can speculate, but even that is almost impossible.

What bothers me the most about saying it about Mike Love is that there are thousands of rock and roll bands where you could raise the same question, and many, many major ones. Would we have heard of Paul McCartney if he didn't meet John Lennon. Or Ray Manzarek if he didn't stumble across Jim Morrison on the beach. Or Art Garfunkel if he didn't attend the same school as Paul Simon. Or Mick Jagger if he didn't ride the same bus as Keith Richards. Or Dave Davies if his brother wasn't Ray. I could go on. The is NO WAY of knowing.

It's one thing to argue the extent of the contribution of the person after the two met, but we have no way of knowing "what might've been".

Never heard of them.  :p 

BTW It was a train where Jagger and Richards met again.

Well I must say, the responses here are very thoughtful and emotional.  To me, Mike Love is a fucking rock n' roll legend and if I ever met him, I would gladly thank him for all the wonderful music the Beach Boys created.  Because it is the Beach Boys. I cannot picture anyone else singing I Get Around. And if it is true (for example) he came up with the hook "round round get around, I get around", then what a hook! I feel exhausted even trying to type a "defense" for Mike. I love the Beach Boys , ALL of them.  We should be thankful for what they gave us.  I always say, speaking of Brian Wilson, that if I ever got JUST one song...say Caroline No...well that would have been enough (thats how good the music is)...I understand to some degree the frustation felt when talking about the Beach Boys career...why did they do this, why did  they do that...its all Mike's fault ...but it is pretty damn easy to sit back and retrospect a whole career of a band and criticize the music and its band members.  I guess the frustation comes because we all know the talent that was contained within that band.

I want to say also something concerning later Beach Boys albums.  When I put on say, MIU, whether it was for the first time or for another listen, I would never expect to hear another Pet Sounds.  That was a one time deal...a beautiful door was opened at that particular time in Brian's life...inspiration...and that was what we got...to expect something like that ALL THE TIME is just selfish and stupid. So when I listen to say, Still I dream of it or Matchpoint, I don't dare compare to Pet Sounds. That is just idiotic and unreasonably demanding. I appreciate the context in which it was created and know that even at the Beach Boys so called "worst" I could not even come close to creating such music or melodies...that is how much talent these guys had.  Like Darian said in the Beautiful Dreamer doc, there is no way they could recreate those harmonies and that was his major worry...that they had a special blend. Mike was part of that special blend. We all know this.

How can anyone speculate or wish something different is beyond me.  I think to slam Mike is just stupid.  What a catalogue, a life story these guys left us.  And hey...I wasn't there? were you? (whoever you may be??)   90% of the time I want to strangle my brother...who knows what these guys went through.  Kind of reminds me what George Harrison said..."we gave our nervous systems" for the world to enjoy the music.  So enjoy the music...look for the hidden deep sea treasures...to say Brian could have done it alone is beyond dumb.  And Mike's talent? to question that? DUH...ummmm....his voice for one???  I know a high percentage on this board (or at least I hope so) is not anti Mike or whoever.  In a sense, I have no idea why I am bothering to type this...good thread Josh, you got everyone fired up!

Mark

I agree Sheriff and with most other people who are saying that without Mike it might not have happened in the same way.. I mean you could speculate and say that without Russ Regan they wouldn't be called The Beach Boys, which I think sounds a lot better than The Pendletones.. so maby they wouldn't have been as big if they had that name... My point is EVERYONE in The Beach Boys story had a role to play, without Murry, without Nik Venet (who saw their potential in the teen genre) etc.. then it wouldn't have worked out the way it did and even though it could have been so much better when you really sit down and think about it, they really gave us a lot of amazing music (and I mean a LOT compared to most artists).. and Mike was a big part of that, particularly in the height of their popularity... I was figuring out some figures the other day (I was bored) and although I tried to include every released song that went by the name of The Beach Boys I no doubt probably missed some songs..but in terms of officially released songs that were written by the band between 1961-1979, Brian had a hand in 179 songs, Mike had a hand in 97 of the songs, Al had 25 songs, Dennis & Carl only had 23 each, Bruce had 5, and Blondie+Ricky had 4 songs. Of course that doesn't tell you about the quality of the songs or exactly what they contributed.... but it shows that Brian+Mike were by far the most prolific members in the years that we love...

I think the argument just falls apart when you start naming songs Mike wrote.  "Good Vibrations".  "I Get Around".  "California Girls".  "Warmth of the Sun".  Just those few put him on par with some of the best as a songwriter. 

Yeah basically the best parts in all of those songs are the music BUT in saying that you can't question Brian's judgement in choosing lyrics which are vitally important as well, it seemed that 99% of the time he knew exactly the right man to write the lyrics for a particular song. As someone here once said, can you imagine Mike writing the lyrics to a song like Surf's Up? But then can you imagine VDP writing lyrics to FFF?

The 'best parts' may be the music but the lyrics are way above par as well in my opinion.  Even stuff like I Get Around, My Side of Town, I'm A Real Cool Head, I'm Makin' real Good Bread!

Come on.  That's awesome!  Almost the whole song is cleverly written "My Buddies And Me Are Gettin' Real Well Known, YEAH... The Bad Guys Know Us 'N They Leave Us Alone...."

I think people really underestimate his lyrical contribution to these songs.  Most of the songs don't even sound dated, even today something like "I'm a real cool head, I'm makin' real good bread" is pretty funny, and interesting.  If I heard a new rock song where somebody said something like that I'd think it's the hottest thing on the radio.

Mike actually did write the music to part of the chorus of Good Vibrations. The melody to "I'm pickin' up good vibrations, she's givin' me the excitations" doesn't exist in Brian's original demo with the Asher lyrics, and the SMiLE version with the Asher verses and the more well-known chorus is credited to Brian Wilson/Tony Asher/Mike Love.

I think Brian's pretty collaboritive on the music as well as the lyrics.  Van Dyke Parks has said some things in interviews that suggest he wrote some of the music to SMiLE as well as the lyrics.  I dont' feel it tarnishes Brian's rep anymore than John Lennon putting Paul McCartney down as co-writer of "The Ballad of John And Yoko" or something. 

I believe Mike said on one of the documentaries that he wrote the words to fit Brian's bass line.  I can't remember the exact quote, or which doc, though.  Carol Kaye has also praised Brian for this bass line..."This is a jazz feel".

I thought one of the documentaries went like this:
Interviewer: Did Mike come up with the hook for Good Vibrations?

Brian: Yeah, he came up with this: [sings] I'm pickin' up good vibrations, she's givin' me the excitation..."

Interviewer: So he came up with the bassline?

Brian: No, I had the bassline. He came up with the words.

Just from memory, and I could be remembering wrong.

I don't think singing words over the existing bass part counts as writing the music: that melody does exist in the bass guitar.

I do remember watching a video where Brian said Mike came up with the bassline. Whatever.

That could be, but I mean that in the tracking sessions, the bass is playing that part. So if Mike came up with it, it was before then. Otherwise he's taking music that is there and singing words over it. Even if that is all he did, it's cool, because Brian wasn't putting any words to that part, and that's a big part of the song. Mike just didn't write the music for it, as far as I can tell.

I guess Brian wrote the rest of the lyrics to GV? Did Mike do anything with the verses?

Do we know for sure who wrote the "I don't know where, but she sends me there" part? I read somewhere that it was Brian...  ???

I guess the bassline was already there and Mike suggested that it should be a vocal line. Well, that's interfering with the "music" part of the song for me. Thank God Mike also wrote the lyrics, can you imagine the THOUSANDS of threads debating if Mike deserved a songwriter credit for this one in the lawsuit?  :-D

I always thought it was "I get around, from town to town"?

Well whatever the case it was Brian who came up with the part "I get around, from town to town, I'm a real cool head, I'm making real good bread", Mike said so in Goldmine (1992).

The way I remember it Brian wanted the lyrics to include "Good, good, good vibes" because "vibes" was the term people used but Tony re-wrote it as "vibrations". I think people have misunderstood a comment that Brian had made but has since clarified to Brian wrote the music of the bass line but Mike authored the lyrics for the bass line.  Possibly this was done independently of Asher's lyrics and  Mike's final lyrics if my memory is correct of Brian singing/muttering those lyrics during one of the interim instru tracking sessions. *  I have never heard anyone claim other than that Mike wrote all of the lyrics [except "good, good, good vibrations"] heard on the 1966 single.

I think it is fascinating that Tony Asher says he and Brian were working on GV very early on but he thought they were going to come back to it and "finish it" and never did. Then Mike and others say Mike wrote the lyrics we know at the very last minute and Mike puts a finer point to it as being after he had received an acetate [or tape?] of the completed track. Information in Peter Carlin's book about Brian's request of VDP to re-write the lyrics of GV seem to suggest it was probably Asher's lyrics Brian was seeking a VDP re-write of instead of Mike's lyrics. Interesting anyway, if not confused by my dottering mind.

* Whoops: I think it is the "...vibrations a'happenein'...." lyrics instead heard during an interim instru tracking session [SOT 15; disc 2; track 4 @ 4:56], so maybe Tony or Brian or Mike [or even VDP] wrote those.

Mike did not write those songs. He supplied the lyrics - some dude called Wilson wrote the music. he's not a songwriter - he's a lyricist. Sometimes a damn good one. But not a songwriter in this instance. Didn't write note one of any of those songs.

Can't put my finger on where I saw it, but in an interview VDP strongly implied that he was asked to replace Mike's lyric - he specifically cited the word "excitations".

Of course he wrote the lyrics.  I was speaking of his lyrical contribution, I consider a lyricist a songwriter.  Maybe you know more about it than I, though.  Let's redo it.

I Think the argument falls apart when you start naming songs Mike wrote.... lyrics for.  "Good Vibrations".  "I Get Around".  "California Girls". "Warmth of the Sun".  Just those few put him on par with some of the best as a lyricist. 

Happy now? 

Isn't this a lovely day to be caught in the rain?
You were going on your way, now you've got to remain.
Just as you were going, leaving me all at sea,
The clouds broke, they broke, and oh! what a break for me!
I can see the sun up high, though we're caught in a storm.
I can see where you and I could be cosy and warm.
Let the rain pitter-patter, cause it really doesn't matter if the skies are grey.
Long as I can be with you, it's a lovely day!

Now, _those_ are some lyrics.

Three words:

"Kiss Me, Baby"

I'm all for sorting out who wrote the music and who wrote the lyrics. In fact, I wouldn't mind a 5 page essay on the subject for every line of every Beach Boys song.  :)

But, didn't Mike contribute the music for the line "Round, round, get around, I get around ... Yeah get around round round I get around"?

So if lyricists aren't songwriters, what about all the great "songwriting teams" where someone supplied the music, the other the lyrics?   The Gershwin brothers, for instance.  I think lyrics have a lot to do with the commercial potential of a song.  They can't always sell a lousy melody, chord sequence, arrangement, or production, but they do often put a song over the top, as it were.  I don't think "California Girls" would have been as big of a hit without Mike's lyrics.  They're kind of corny and cheesy, but they're a major hook of the song.  As well as contributing to the Beach Boys' identity as a group, for better or for worse.  

It was a little odd seeing Melinda Wilson's response to someone's post last evening on the Blueboard, about why Brian has no interest in rejoining the Beach Boys (Brian actually says different things at different times on the subject).  She claimed Mike stole Brian's money by winning his songwriting lawsuit.  I know there are some songs on the list where Mike only gave a few words, but for many of them, including the biggie "California Girls," he wrote all or most of the lyrics.  And never got credit or compensation over the years for that.  Brian has said over the years he felt some guilt because of that fact.  I wonder if it's more Melinda that holds things against Mike than Brian does, but claims that it's Brian, because she wishes to interpret things that way.   I'm not a big fan of Mike by any means, but I don't know if it's that great to nurse a grudge against him, either.  Melinda even brought up Mike's speech at the Rock Hall of Fame as to why the Beach Boys shouldn't have been included in the Kennedy Center Honors.  

With two exceptions that I can think of right now*, lyricists supply the words to fit an existing melody. They may influence the melody some, but said choon predates the lyric.

[doubtless there are more but the two that spring to mind are Bernie Taupin & Roger Christian]

So, how should the lyricist/tunewriter pie be split?  There are different formulas that have been worked out, is my understanding, including when Brian and his dad published his songs.  I recall reading that Gary Usher, for example, only got 25% (or at least less than 50).  Brian set his own precedent, though, when he offered Van Dyke Parks a full 50% for lyrics only, and got his dad to agree to that.   Plus threw in $5,000 as an advance for Van to buy himself a Volvo.

Actually Elton wrote music to Bernie's lyrics. I wasn't there but it's in all the books and videos.

Yeah that's right...I've never heard of songwriting quite like that, where the lyrics and music are done so independently of each other.  I would guess Elton and Bernie had a 50/50 split arrangement, but I'm not totally sure.

I think the split should be done according to who has done the most work.  For instance, I would say that someone who just writes lyrics isn't entitled to as much as the person who takes the lyrics, writes the music, and a comes up with a melody.  The melody and the music are what sells...the lyrics can help with that, but if the melody is dull, you can have the best lyrics in the world and it won't matter.  I've always felt that the music was the most important thing, and the lyrics are just a necessary thing to express the musical aspect. 

It seems to me often/if a song has both music and lyrics; one who wrote lyrics of a song would be as much a songwriter as one who wrote the music. Maybe our biases are showing when we claim one has some intrinsic importance over the other in a song?

That VDP reference to "excitiations" would be interesting; I don't think it necessarily squares with what he told Carlin [but on the other hand I can't put my hand on my copy of the book].  I did find an interview where Mike said Brian already had the track and the "good, good, good vibrations" before he wrote his lyrics.

Andrew had cited Elton/Bernie as an exception.

What's the first thing people connect with when they hear a pop song? They hear a catchy melody first, the music  underneath the catchy melody and then (maybe) the lyrics.  In pop music, the lyrics aren't as much a focal point as they are in, as an example folk music.  There are exceptions of course. It's intersting though that a common complaint of BB music ( by their own fans, even) is "bad lyrics".

Try reading what I said again - especially the bit I marked *

Couldn't agree more. I have always thought unless the lyrics detract from the music then I rarely even take too much notice of them. Well I sing along etc.. but I'm not really even thinking about what I'm singing. I just get caught up in the music. As has been mentioned there are always exceptions. But basically as long as the music (melody, chords etc..) is good as well as it being sung well then I don't care for lyrics too much unless they are noticeably bad then it makes the song worse.


Of course there are some terrible lyrics in the Beach Boys catalogue but I have always thought that their lyrics generally aren't that bad. There's a few songs with great lyrics, a few with terrible lyrics and the majority being just average.

Ooops.

Can't believe some folks are suggestin that lyric writing doesn't count as songwriting! Besides, Mike did write at least two songs (Big Sur, Everyone's in Love with You) by himself, right? Either way, if I'm at the piano coming up with some chord progression, in my mind I may have a certain melody, but often my roomate will start singing the melody HE hears along with his words, which are often better than my ideas. What I'm trying to say is that it's impossible to know exactly what influence ML had on melodies or song structure as he sat next to BW at the piano.

I'm pretty sure he also wrote Sumahama by himself.

Yes, lyrics can be very important. I was just listening to REM's It's the End of the World as We Know It.
Okay, so you can just bounce along to that beat, but the lyrics are a beat poem, and there's no melody there, except in the chorus. Yet it's a brilliant song. Same with Ebow (the Letter)-- the lyrics overshadow the melody.

I'd say it depends on the song. In the case of most BBs songs, though, the music overshadows the lyrics. Sorry, Mike, and all of Brian's other lyricists.

in case anyone missed it -


(posted by Melinda Wilson on December 28, 2007 at 1:22 pm)

Message:

I would agree with a lot of what you have said and it seems well thought out. I would agree that Carl and Dennis wrote some beautiful music, as well and made huge contributions. Unfortunately for the rest of the band and I'm assuming you mean Mike, Al, and Bruce since Carl and Dennis are no longer with us, it's the composer of the music that gets these type of awards. I think that at the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame induction when The Beach Boys were being honored, his cousin Mike made it really difficult on all the other members by what he had to say to the audience at that particular event. In the music world, it still goes unforgiven. Right or wrong, that's the way of the music business. Brian appreciates his late brothers and loves them and their contribution to The Beach Boys very much. He loves Al's contributions. He loves Mike's contribution, but is appauled by his cousins actions by literally stealing songs from him in the Wilson vs Love lawsuit in the mid 90's. He is also appauled by his cousins recents lawsuit that not only cost him much time and aggravation, and once again took money from him by having to defend a meritless overplead lawsuit. Brian won this particular suit, but his cousin continues to harass him (in Brian's eyes)by now appealing the judges verdict. Mike legally has every right in the world to the appeal, but Brian doesn't see it that way. He then filed a second lawsuit adding BRI to it without their permission, as a matter of fact they voted 3-l not to sue and that has too has now been thrown out of court, but not without Brian spending more money and having to deal with the aggravation once again. His cousin is also suing Al Jardine which Brian thinks is ridiculous and uncalled for. As you can see there is a lot of water under that bridge. Brian has moved on. He doesn't have anything to do with who the music industry chooses to honor. He is truly proud of his accomplishments, his brothers, his ex bandmates, his new bandmates and wishes everyone well. Just for the record, not one of his ex bandmates, The Beach Boys with the exception of Al Jardine has congratulated Brian for the Kennedy award. This may give you some perspective Jason. Thank you for your post Jason. L&M Melinda

On the songwriting issue . . . there are several ways of looking at it.

On the one hand, you may have a musician who writes both music and lyrics . . . OR, you may have a musician who writes the music, and a lyricist (who otherwise cannot play or write music) who writes the words for the song.

In the later case, about all you can say is that the lyricist is not a musician, but at the same time IS a songwriter -- in a collaborative sense.

And songwriting partnerships can go either way. There can be existing music or melody, to which a lyricist will add words . . . OR . . . there can be a set of lyrics that comes first, which then are put to music (after the fact) by a musician/songwriter.

Bottome line is, the collaborators create the song, and thus each party involved is a songwriter. It's a terminology thing.

M.

One lyric that sticks out as REALLY BAD is

'One, two, three! She's fallin in love with me! Four, five, six! She fell for all my tricks!'

I suppose that would work for Raffi who is singing songs for childeren.

Didn't Brian write that song all by himself? 

This, I can believe.

It's often thought that the existence or survival of the Beach Boys as a concept and a band rests with Brian or Carl, but it rests just as much on Mile Love's shoulders.  No, he did not have the raw talent of any of the Wilsons, or even Al, but unlike any of the Wilsons, he generally was able to consistently be the voice and frontman of the band, night after night, while the drama unfolded around him.

He's no genius, and he's no saint, but he's an important part of the Beach Boys puzzle that cannot be disregarded.

...especially in the 60s, Love was quite an important part of the music.

Brian Wilson's solo set is a sharp reminder that Love is/was not necessary to perform his songs - his current band sound more like the wrecking crew of the '60s than any 80s incarnation of the Beach Boys. If Lucky Old Sun turns out to be any good on record then it further drives home the point that the Beach Boys ended up a drag on what Dennis, Brian and Carl were capable of.

So keeping the band together for so long... was it a good thing? But that's another question

Brian wrote some horrible lyrics too but he was also capable of writing decent lyrics. I do think he is under-rated as a lyricist, but of course Mike is the best lyricist in The Beach Boys in my opinion.

I'd rather hear Mike sing "I Get Around" than Brian any day.

[/quote]I'd rather hear Mike sing "I Get Around" than Brian any day.
[/quote]

Fair point. But I'd rather hear "I'd Love Just Once To See You" or "Little Girl I Once Knew" or "Can't Wait Too Long" -  with Brian and band - than Mike with his granny Bruce on bongos. I think TLOS will illustrate that Mike Love has become really quite  redundant these days.  :'(

"These days" having begun in 1974 and not yet ended...

As satisfying as Brian's solo shows have been, particularly with the brilliance of the band and the diverse material, they have also been oddly unfulfilling.

When I hear Brian repeatedly (and I stess repeatedly), attempt a song with a Mike Love lead vocal, or a Mike Love bass vocal, I am underwhelmed.

I applaud (literally) Brian's effort, but, inside I'm saying to myself, "I'm sitting hear listening to a bunch of songs with Brian trying to duplicate Mike Love, and not doing it as well." It's kind of a strange feeling actually...

I agree that Brian struggles singing the uptempo lead vocals of Mike, but in my experience (having seen Mike several times in the past 3 years) so does Mike. I cannot say overwhelmingly I prefer Mike on all of his leads today i. It is probably somewhere in the middle, some songs Mike sounds good, others not so much. ( looking at you BTTYS!) There are some  Brian does a nice job on, others not so much. I quite enjoyed Mike's son Christian on his Dad's old lead of Getcha Back. My solution: I would not mind Mike relinquishing some other leads as well. Not all , cause some songs Mike Love can still nail. I also wouldn't mind others in Brian's group stepping up to take some of the Mike leads.  It may be neccessary to do some minor key changes as well that alot of people wouldn't even notice, but it might help Brian and Mike sound better.  Unfortunately Beach Boy music is challenging to cover vocally unlike some other older singers/songs

I felt the third part of the shows in September, the oldies set, was sort of added as an afterthought, I agree with those who don't really feel the need to see Brian sing "I Get Around" but I guess they felt obliged to provide these songs, with the price of the tickets perhaps. Maybe his voice isn't fitted to these too well, I had the feeling he was kind of impersonating Love as well, and he looks on autopilot when he's doing them. Whereas, when we sometimes heard him come in too early during the Lucky Old Sun set, I like to think it's because he's keen to sing it, and he believe Brian likes and needs a challenge, which the early surf numbers perhaps don't provide. But I guess he'll never tell us this either way.

Other than this, the other two parts of the show were something beyond, er, Love. I'd like to see a video release of this in much the same way as they did with the Smile performance...