The Smiley Smile Message Board

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/features/article/48236/sea-of-heartbreak/

I was lucky back around 1996 to find a used cd copy of the album for $3. It is one of my most played. I love the music Dennis created.

That is a VERY VERY rare find, especially for being five years out of print by that point.  I found my copy around 1994 or so...still sealed in the longbox for $10.99 at some record store that went out of business the next year.  Never saw another copy, new or used, again.  They also had the 1991 issues of KTSA, Sunflower, Carl & The Passions, MIU, Ten Years Of Harmony, and I believe Surf's Up (I already had it by that time) all in longboxes, too, for $9.99 each ($13.99 for TYOH).  By far the best find I ever had in my years of music shopping.

I just read the article, and I am surprised by Bruce's comments regarding POB.  I know it's a matter of opinion, but it's hard for me to understand someone could feel that way about it.  And to think that Carl's albums were more interesting?  That's definitely something I wouldn't have thought I'd hear him say.  There are some nice tracks off of both of Carl's albums, but to these ears and to this heart, nothing even remotely close to POB.  I guess it's kind of like Bruce hating Breakaway or Mike never listening to BWPS...something I'll never understand.

I don't know, I don't think Bruce said much that's so bad. I don't like Carl's solo material at all, so I can't relate to that. But I''m somewhat neutral on POB, too. I like about half of it, and could take or leave the rest. So for him to say he's neutral about it isn't as shocking to me (other than from the standpoint that most bands, one would think, promote one another in public...but hey, this is the Beach Boys) as it might be to others. I honestly don't consider POB some kind of lost classic. I consider it a good album that ought to be reissued, sure. But there's no way I'd put it in my top 100 albums.

The other things he says aren't so crazy either. He says Dennis could have made it more commercial, "farther reaching," I think is his term. I'm sure that's true. I don't think it would have improved the album, but certainly, it could've been more commercial.

And he says Dennis was talented, and fun to hang out with. I doubt anyone would argue those points!

As for publishing the album and other DW works: is there still confusion over who has rights?  Is the "legal mess" untangled or not?  Why doesn't BRI buy the rights from the various parties and release a DW box set?

Well, according to some quotes in the essay, not necessarily enough BRI voting members want it out.

I think some of the info in that article may be mildly inaccurate - my understanding is that the rights were sorted out well over a year ago.

I'd like to see Bruce do better. He really is a bad judge of material in my opinion. When Girls Get Together proves that to many.

Yeh that is true. I mean look at Going Public, that sucks, I'm sure Bruce would even admit that.

Yeah, he's said several times he doesn't like Going Public either.  He's also been known to say that he doesn't like Love You.  Maybe he was going through some bad stuff in 1977, and any BB music from that era reminds him of it???  That's 3 for 3 that he didn't like from 77.  I wonder what he thinks of Blondie Chaplin's album from that year?

He's probably never heard it. I never knew he didn't like Love You aswell.. Maby you are right, maby he was having a hard time at that stage of his life?

Why? He had a huge hit.

Comment I left
Good article but I wanted to comment on some things that raised my eyebrows. Bruce made a fool of himself here. Anyone hear his solo LP Going Public? It’s pathetic. Leaf also seems to be giving Dennis some backhanded compliments. He is a Brian guy and not really elequent when it comes to the other Beach Boys. I think all the composers he compared Dennis to are inferior by merely their pretentions.

Two factual points need to be corrected. Dennis voice was great during the “Holland” era, he just hated being there and wouldn’t hang around long enough to finish those leads. Second Dennis did show his playfull side on his earlier compositions such as “Sound Of Free”, “All I Want To Do”, an “Got To Know The Woman”. Even his Bamboo outake “Wild Situation” has some of his sly humor.

Bruce has a very commercial mindset and his music tends to be very schmaltzy. It makes sense why he wouldn't like POB but like Carl's solo albums.

Bruce...poor Bruce. He seems like a talented guy with absolutely no standards or taste when it comes to music. Every song he's been behind the boards for is bound to be the most maudlin MOR pap. Shifting units is the way he thinks of music. Maybe he was proud to be thought of as one of the surfing Doris Days...

As far as "Love You" goes, Bruce has said the main thing he doesn't like about it is the "steam-powered synths" taking over where there used to be a room full of musicians.  That and Brian's course vocal delivery, and I'm sure the childlike lyrics bother him too...think of it from the prospective of someone who idolized Brian at the peak of his career, but now watched from the sidelines as his idol, now a broken man, cranked out THIS record...some of us would probably feel similarly sad.  I think that's Bruce's main opinion of "Love You":  sad.  On the other hand, he praised "'Til I Die" in the same interview as being Brian's last truly great work of art.

Me, of course, I've loved "Love You" since Day One, because it's as brilliant as it is whacked-out.  But I'm on the outside looking in.

As for his dislike of "POB"...I guess there's no accounting for taste, but Bruce did praise "Make It Good" and to a lesser extent "Cuddle Up", from a musician's standpoint, while admitting he wasn't being "commercially objective". 

I wonder how long it's been since he's heard "POB"?  If he hasn't listened to it since it came out, he might feel differently about it by listening to it now.

So Bruce doesn't think Love You and POB are masterpieces... So what? "Bad taste"? 'Cause he loves Sunflower, that album must suck then. I'd rather have him giving his honest opinion instead of saying "all the right things" to apease the Beach Boys audience. POB ain't this perfect album, and I say this as a proud owner of a Caribou CD.

I would agree with you that POB is not necassaraly a classic, one of a kind gem.  But in the context of the Beach Boys, it was by far the best thing that came out in the 70s. In fact, I that the BB continued to progress from Wild Honey to Holland. POB was a step beyond that IMO. Love You is an album that I may like better, but it is not as mature as POB. The same could be said in comparing Friends and Holland. I like Friends better, but Holland is more mature.

No, it may not compare to Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin, Chicago, etc.

By far? Not to my (Brucian?) ears. It's not as good as Sunflower, Surf's Up, Holland or Love You. But i beats the pants off 15BO, MIU and LA. Fifth of nine.

I would say only Sunflower trumps it.

I just want to throw it out there that I believe the Spring/American Spring, BW-produced album is equally deserving of a re-release, and yet another example of an artistically interesting album not seeing re-release.

My rankings (as of 11/07):

1. LA (Slick production is not always a bad thing...beautiful background vocals on each track...edges out POB just because everyone participates)
2. POB (I do think that this is a lost classic that deserves a wider audience)
3. In Concert (their best live album)
4. CATP/ST (a sentimental favorite...when I first heard this, it really clicked for me that they really did a lot of great music in the early 70's that went unappreciated)
5. Love You (unlike any other BB album)
6. Sunflower (not as much of a favorite as it used to be for me)
7. Surf's Up (my appreciation for this album has gone way up over the years)
8. MIU (weak songs, but definitely a fan of that warm sound)
9. Holland (this album is definitely less than the sum of it parts...it just doesn't come together)
10. Blondie Chaplin (vastly underrated...some potential hits on there if the album had been promoted)
11. Celebration (2nd album...fun, mindless pop.)
12. 15BO (Because of  the availability of the 45 versions of RNRM and It's OK on GH3, I don't ever bother with this)
13. Almost Summer Soundtrack (a couple of OK tracks)
14. Going Public (the disco Deirdre is OK)

For me, there's is a certain sense of despair to DW's love songs at that point in time, which I find to be both appalling and beautiful at once, so it totally depends on the mood I'm in if I'm even able to enjoy it. That said, I certainly don't mean that in a negative way, as an artist bearing his very soul like that is one of the true blessings you rarely come across in the history of pop music.

It's both Dennis' "Pet Sounds" and his "Plastic Ono Band".

1. LA (Slick production is not always a bad thing...beautiful background vocals on each track...edges out POB just because everyone participates)
2. POB (I do think that this is a lost classic that deserves a wider audience)
3. In Concert (their best live album)
4. CATP/ST (a sentimental favorite...when I first heard this, it really clicked for me that they really did a lot of great music in the early 70's that went unappreciated)
5. Love You (unlike any other BB album)
6. Sunflower (not as much of a favorite as it used to be for me)
7. Surf's Up (my appreciation for this album has gone way up over the years)
8. MIU (weak songs, but definitely a fan of that warm sound)
9. Holland (this album is definitely less than the sum of it parts...it just doesn't come together)
10. Blondie Chaplin (vastly underrated...some potential hits on there if the album had been promoted)
11. Celebration (2nd album...fun, mindless pop.)
12. 15BO (Because of  the availability of the 45 versions of RNRM and It's OK on GH3, I don't ever bother with this)
13. Almost Summer Soundtrack (a couple of OK tracks)
14. Going Public (the disco Deirdre is OK)
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Interesting list, I would say that for me I like everything from 1970-73 much more then 76-79 but  P.O.B. is as good anything they did previously. I admit to liking Dennis' young voice better, but I still think it's nearly perfect as an album can be.  It's funny the late seventies may pale next to what came before but it's so much better then what was to come later not counting some of Brian's solo work.

I find Lennon's album much more subjective in parts. Dennis' album is just as personal but no self indulgent screaming, or personal references weigh it down. John also was much full of  self pity. I like the sound of Lennon's album and his voice on it,  but I just cannot get into it subject wise. Dennis' is really much more complex and open to interpertation. Dare I say it, it's more intelligent.

I agree. I think Dennis's music did have a lot of intelligence. The Wilson brothers in particular were amazing record makers (I mean when you look at the entire recording process) because they knew how to get the right sounds for what they wanted to express. Of course I don't know this and there is no way of knowing that it is exactly how they felt but I can't see how a song like Thoughts of You could be any more perfect at expressing what Dennis was trying to express.

How about "it's not embarassing"?

Love the "as-of"! How wise that is...

I agree that slick production isn't always bad, btw. But I don't like many songs on LA, and that is a problem. I forgot CATP, which I'd put a bit below POB (although I like parts of it more than any of POB).

I think Pacific Ocean Blue is definitely where the natural progression of Sunflower, Surf's Up, CATP and Holland was leading to. There are a couple of rungs on the progression ladder that went missing. 15 Big Ones was a step back, and Love You was a wonderful fall off the ladder into a pool of wacky Brian-ness. I think Love You shows that no matter what anybody else is doing there's always a chance Brian might come out of left field with something indescribably unique. But even though I love Love You, Pacific Ocean Blue is better, prettier, sadder, more ambitious and more mature, its fully formed and timeless. I think POB is the most progressive of all Beach Boys records other than Pet Sounds and Smile and it shares similarities with both of them. I think Dennis learned the big brother's secret, and that he had a similarly painful creative well to draw from. Pet Sounds and Smile are so progressive that they are almost witchcraft, and scary when you really think about it and examine the elements that went into them in the context of what was going on in music when they were made. POB is like a huge swell of emotion and power that came out of a lake bed that was supposedly drying up. I like the comment in that pop matters article about Dennis sounding like he was making a last stand. In a sense he was. It was the last creative stand of the Beach Boys. Everything that came later was either stunted and half formed, or dumbed down by its surroundings. POB is a fearless statement. One last blissful wave of Beach Boys magic.  It's a bit of a scary ride, but it's one that is moving forward.

Wow! I couldn't have said it any better myself.  :h5

I think you're partly, but not quite completely, correct on that, Jon. POB is where Dennis was going through those albums, and in a way where the general vibe of the band was going. But the problem is, without the others along with him, the album suffers to my ears. (And let's be clear, from here on when I say things that are matters of taste as if they're fact, I'm giving my opinion. I just don't want to water down the post with "and I think" or "and it's my opinion" every single time. I realize many won't agree.)

The best thing about the Beach Boys during that period you're talking about--and even a few years earlier--was the diversity of sounds. There is a magic in hearing a quirky Brian song in there with a sincere, dramatic Dennis song, then an Al song, likely humorous or a cover, and one of Carl's mini-epics. In the Ricky/Blondie years, there were even more voices in the mix, both literally and in terms of songwriting. Sometimes those songs come together pretty well to make surprisingly cohesive albums despite their diverse parts, such as on Holland or Sunflower, or even Surf's Up. On CATP or 20/20, that wasn't so much the case.

What this has to do with POB is that POB was Dennis, and almost only Dennis. There are a couple Beach Boys co-writes, and I understand Carl can be heard doing backgrounds. But when I hear it, I think about how much better an album it could have been with input from the others. Maybe some of the songs would have taken significantly different form with input from the guys, maybe the others would've just added their voices to the harmonies, or their instruments according to Dennis' intentions. But either way, I think it's a richer album for it. And--don't shoot me, please--POB is just too much Dennis. Too much of his voice, too much of what I consider his melodrama. Half of POB plus half of the other guys' input (hopefully, in such a mythical world, with reinvigorated spirits and major contributions from his brothers, as opposed to the backward-facing MIU of the day) would have made an amazing album, an album that I could honestly call a favorite, a classic. While I like and respect POB, I can't call it those things.

Interesting post, Luther. I agree with a lot of what you said. This is my take...

Many fans wish The Beach Boys would've taken the artistic direction that Dennis did with POB. I mean, he laid it all out there, and made it his art. I think the other guys could have gone that way - though not as good - because, around that time, the guys were experiencing a lot of the same problems as Dennis. If you look at it, within the next couple of years, ALL of their marriages disolved. To some extent, there was substance abuse, financial woes, and general craziness surrounding all of them.

So why didn't they follow Dennis? Basically, I just think they didn't want to. I don't think it had as much to do with "money" or going "back" to being the old Beach Boys. I think they just wanted to be happy again, and create something "positive". People hate when Mike Love spouts that, but I think he is being sincere. I love POB, but it can be a very depressing listen. Many of the songs are about loss and pain; even the title track is about "blues". That's not to say it isn't also inspirational and beautiful, because it is.

I think it was a conscious decision to go HAPPY, and that came out in the form of 15 Big Ones through MIU. That's what they knew best, including Brian, who needed a good dose of "happy" himself. I'm not saying they couldn't have been successful creating 1976 mature adult-sounding music, but that would've been more difficult, more painful, riskier. "It's OK" is positive and HAPPIER. The pain of break ups and whale killings would have to be put on hold.

The other guys just didn't have the desire that Dennis had to do a POB-like approach, other than maybe Brian. But, at that time, Brian was being led down the positive path to health. I just don't think the timing was right - in their personal lives - to follow Dennis...

Does anybody really think that the Beach Boys working on POB as a group album in 1976, all written by Dennis, is a realistic proposition? Compared to that, Brian finishing Smile in 1972 is a piece of cake.

No way. But I do think that if the group's dynamics were different, Dennis could've gotten, say, 4-6 songs or co-writes onto a Beach Boys album. And I'd sure have loved to hear those 4-6 songs. (Rainbows, River Song and Pacific Ocean Blues all include other Beach Boys as co-writers, and then maybe 22-3 other Dennis songs on this hypothetical album.) Obviously there's no way for it to have happened--after all, it didn't happen. For me, the music--and maybe sales--would've been better for both the band and Dennis had they all hung together and done such a thing, though.