The Smiley Smile Message Board

Here's a interesting one: Beach Boy songs that could/should have been great, but something went wrong and they blew it! Not blew it perhaps, but damn it, it coulda been better! Personally i'd say 'All This Is That', the fade out could have been terrific but the production is all wrong.. Carl's gorgeous vocal kicks in and it's great, but then it just suddenly and clumsily leaps back into the mix, whereas it really should have been kept to the fore alongside Mike's chanting and the piano. You might disagree, but it bugs me everytime i listen to the track. I generally don't particuarly approve of remixing and remastering etc but this track is crying out for someone to mend that fade. (I not yet heard the version on 'Warmth of The Sun' - perhaps they have..?)

Anyway, anyone feel a similar way about a BB track (send nominations, and messages going on about how great you happen to think 'All This Is That' is so f*** me!, to the site folks!)

I'm not sure if I'd call it a great song, but "This Car Of Mine" is a catchy little tune with a good vocal by Dennis.  But it's a very short song, one of the shortest they made, and doesn't really go anywhere.  It seems like another verse, with maybe an alternate chorus would've made it a better song...

About half of the Beach Boys '85 album would've sounded great with the BB's classic 60s sound instead of Steve Levine's dreadful production, with more creative input from Brian (unfortunately he was "Landy-fied" at the time), and with Mike Love sounding less nasal.

I've always thought that "Meant For You" had great potential to be a really great three minute song, had somebody written more lyrics, and possibly a middle eight.

Just thought of another: 'Don't Go Near the Water'. It's too over-produced by far, almost as if they're desperately trying to compensate for the songs slight-ness by filling it full of distracting noises and sound effects. It would've worked better i think had they just recorded it stripped down 'Friends'-style.

(As a footnote, for years i'd always thought it was Carl singing the great section in the middle: saw the song video on u tube yesterday and turns out it's Al. Eeeh, well i never....)

"409" - guitars could've rocked more
"California Girls" - one minor complaint - tag should've been longer
"Wild Honey" - too slow, strained vocal; listen to Blondie Chaplin's take in the early 70's
"Lady" - tremendous song, under produced; would've liked a more prominent guitar like the version performed on the David Frost Show
"Let's Put Our Hearts Together" - great underrated song, poor performance though

"Oh Darlin!". Great love song, terrible production. Mike's singing is also not very good and I prefer Brian's early version to Carl singing on the released one. The background-parts are very dumb imo with just one or two good ideas. Bruce's "god only knows how I love you..."-tag is also kind a misfit imo. The song itself though is great

The first half of that album could almost fit under this discussion, except in my opinion those songs aren't great. They are, however, a lot better than what those recordings/production choices made them sound like. KTSA, even with the same songs, could have been decent instead of bad.

I agree with you guys. Side A of KTSA should've really ROCKED, but it didn't. When Bruce Johnston came back as producer, he did a great job cleaning up the sound vocally, but a lot of the tracks are too slick, or sterile.

Yeah, see "School Days".

Great song that could have been better? "Gettin' Hungry", I don't like the parts with just the vocals.   >:(  "Loop De Loop", good song but Al messed up with the production.
"Problem Child" without the childrens' voices (same with "Santa's Goin' To Kokomo" and "Make It Big" movie version could have been better.

"Here Comes The Night" is not rockin' enough (same with "Darlin'"), and the disco version is too long. "Good Vibrations" is compared to the sesssions a joke.

"Devoted to You" - without the "Party!" overdubs. Thankfully, we got this one on the "Hawthorne, CA" CD!

"Auld Lang Syne" without the message from Dennis, but that's too avaible.  :-D

It's pretty wll known that 'Let Him Run Wild' is a track Brian himself is unhappy with, but i disagree with the great man as to its faults. It ain't his vocal performance, it's the occasionally muddy production that spoils what is obviously a tremendous song in itself. The second chorus in particular doesn't come off as it should i feel. Wish it coulda got the same production polish afforded the 'Pet Sounds' tracks...

"It's Ok" - petters out too early.  Would have been a bigger hit fleshed out to a longer tune. 

Same with "Good Timin".  Gorgious song that end way to early.

This Whole World is a verse short, it should have been a hit single but too short! ,Lookin At Tomorrow is also a verse short, It's Ok is also a verse short, I hate to do this but I would put some harmonies (not alot) on Caroline No, Santa Ana Winds has a great beat but should have been released with its original lyrics, Keepin The Summer Alive needed to rock like its live, Lady Lynda needed stripped down production.

How about a proper beginning? That fault is the only reason this wasn't a much bigger hit...

also "Getcha Back" decent song... horrible vocal from Mike... should have been redone... don't know what Steve Levine was thinking there...

When I read this question, the title track of KTSA immediately came to mind.  I would remove the "duh-duh-duh" bass vocal, which they wisely didn't use when performing it live.

Around 2004 or 2005, Mike & Bruce were using the intro to "California Beach" as the intro to "It's OK", and it worked perfectly!

Mike's vocal on GETCHA BACK sounds nasally to the extreme, almost as if he was doing it on purpose.  Compare it to his vocal on MALE EGO.  Then again, maybe Steve Levine made it sound that way.

Mike seems to be quite proud of his "multiple voices"... I wouldn't be surprised if his vocals on Getcha Back were really done on purpose.

'Nearest Faraway Place'...Weak lead organ (Sorry Bruce) :(

I think that is such stinky, stinky cheese that it doesn't reach the "great song" requirement before the qualifying "could've been better" part. Oh, it could've been better..by total abandonment and reinvention.

That said, we all have our preferences. If you like it, I will work hard to remove it from my 20/20 and somehow give it to you. MAKE IT GO AWAY.

 ;D

Yes we do Luther and I quite like it. Of course it's nowhere near one of my favourite Beach Boys tracks, but I still think it's a decent song. It's quite relaxing I think. I wish I could compose a song like that

Our Car Club would've been great with better lyrics.

How about Rabbit's Foot or whatever it was originally called?

He came down, should be about a minute shorter

A small story re the NFP track. In 1979-80 I was in a somewhat alternative music store when the track came on the stereo, I think from a compilation or movie soundtrack album. Two black T-shirt wearing Heavy Metal listeners stopped looking through the Black Sabbath albums and stood listening for the rest of the song and at the end walked up to the counter to ask who and what it was.
The song fits in well on the Surfs Up album IMO. While not a classical fan, I like it for its light contemporary feel. The piano used at the beginning should have been used througout IMO.


oops...20/20 album

The thing I dislike most about it is the style of the keyboard playing. Where Brian had a simple keyboard technique but arranged for interesting parts by other instruments, Bruce's keyboard style is full of the sort of little flourishes that really annoy me, especially when coupled with that electric piano sound that ruined the much of the next decade to my ears.

Agreed. But a lot may have been the style of the time.
One thing I must also comment on is just how crappy the keyboards sounded at the time compared with what they can do now.

Well of course, digital technology has made it possible for keyboards that are emulating other instruments to sound much, much better. But there are plenty of keyboard instruments from that era that everyone making digital keyboards now tries to emulate: Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzers, Hammonds, etc. A lot of those 60s and 70s keyboards sound great, I think. It's often just like anything else, how you're using them.

I first listened to "The Nearest Faraway Place" decades ago, before I ever read any of the books or liner notes (those were the days!). I thought it was a Brian Wilson composition. It wasn't until I looked at the record label did I realize it was composed by Bruce!

I like the song. And as I've said before, if "The Nearest Faraway Place" would've been written by Brian Wilson, the song would've been hailed as a work of art, maybe even a missing piece from SMiLE.

Certainly not by me.

Amen, brother.

He may have a point there. Personally I think its the best of the new material on 20/20 with the exception of Dennis' songs. TTGA and IWTS are better too, but they were Friends outtakes.

I'm not a fan of much by Bruce but I still think NFP is his best. 'Deidre' and 'Tears' get the Skip treatment.

Can we agree that 'I Write The Songs' could have been great....unrecorded? ;)

The problem with I Write the Songs is that Bruce does NOT write the songs that make the whole world sing. And neither did Barry Manilow. The only way that song would make sense is if it were a Beach Boys recording sung by Brian.

I like The Nearest Faraway Place... I like the melody... But it's certainly not a great work of art... It's elevator music, really.

Haha. I wonder if those guys became Beach Boys fans?

Well, I just don't like that song much at all. Never been a big fan. How it ever won a grammy is beyond me. I would much rather listen to The Nearest Faraway Place any day.

Didn't he write it with Brian in mind?

I've heard that too (can't remember where unfortunately).. But I also remember Bruce stating that he was trying to say that he had the idea that God's presence was in men and women who write songs/create art.. so in other words hes sort of saying God writes the songs.. through other people I guess.. I dunno I think he said something to that affect.

Maybe after hearing "All I want to do" from the same album?   :-D

This reminds of a thread in the first major Beach Boys Message Board, ten years ago. Two or three fans praising Dennis' lead vocals in "All I Want to Do" to high heaven, saying he should have been the group's lead singer, what a great rock'n'roll performance etc. Then someone informed them that this was "MICHAEL EDWARDS LOVE" they were praising. I've never seen a thread die so abruptly.  :p

The weird thing is that Brian has said that Bruce told him that he wrote it about him, but Bruce has since denied this.  I think the song being about Brian makes a lot of sense, and some of the lyrics certainly suggest it. 

I think this is probably it exactly.


I think a likely explanation would be that Bruce told Brian pretty much what mikeyj says above, and Brian thought, yeah, that's how I do it.  It's about me.

maybe being in the same band as Brian Wilson for 7 years served as an inspiration for Bruce, but first line "I’ve been alive forever" make very clear what the final draft is about.

Sorry to bring up the NFA again Luther, but anyone have an idea on what album it would have been playing in that store. I know it was NOT 20/20 or any BBs compilation. I am 99% sure it was a movie soundtrack album as I seem to remember picking it up but now have no idea what it could have been.

One for AGD maybe?

I'm not 100% sure, and I'm not 100% sure that this release is legit, but Im pretty sure it was released on that Instrumental hits cd from japan wasn't it? I'm only guessing though...

Could be the case. It was that kind of store.


BTW. Luther...this ones for you! ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzN9mQIAKNg

Perhaps Bruce should have called it: 'I Write The Songs Everyone Always Skips Passed'? Woulda been more fitting, no?

These are Bruce's only soundtrack credits on IMDb:

Catch-22 (2007) (TV) ("Tears in the Morning")

"The Facts of Life" (1 episode, 1981)
    - Free Spirit (1981) TV Episode (writer: "I Write the Songs")

Wow, I must be the only person here who enjoys 'Nearest Faraway Place' and Bruce's 'Sunflower' contributions. Took me a while, but I kinda like them now.

I don't mind Bruce's Sunflower contributions. But as I think I made clear, I despise Nearest Faraway Place.

Yep, that's clear  :wink

everyone has their own opinion. And honestly, I hated it until very recently.

The only Bruce song that I really care for is 'Disney Girls' which really is a beautiful tune!! Otherwise I'd much rather either of his two sentimental songs from 'Sunflower' had been replaced by the far more worthy 'Lady'. Or maybe 'San Miguel'. And yes, while I certainly don't depise it, I think 'Nearest Faraway..' is at best average. At a time when the band were striving to stay in the mainstream and be considered hip they really coulda done without this sort of elevator musak. For a great 20/20 instrumental see 'Mona Kanua' - great track!

In fact, while I'm on my usual Dennis'-songs-shoulda-been-on-their-albums-more trip, can I suggest the following line-up that I think they shoulda used for 'Surf's Up':
1. Don't Go near The Water
2. Long Promised Road
3. Disney Girls
4. 4th Of July
5. Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again

6. Feel Flows
7. Lookin' At Tomorrow
8. A Day In The Life Of A Tree
9. 'Til I Die
10. Surf's Up

Come on, better than Pet Sounds no? What a line-up! If only Jack Rieley coulda just told Mike and Al 'no way' to SDT and 'Take a Load..', and Carl and Dennis coulda agreed on the track-listing... Bummer.

Not better than Pet Sounds, I don't think, but a damn fine album. By the way, below is (an admittedly wholly fraudulent) reposting of your previously stated preferred track list for Love You:

Huh? I genuinely don't get it.... Sorry. I've never posted a desired 'Love You' tracklisting, or am I perhaps missing the gag? If you mean, do I think the BB's would have been better served releasing 'POB' as the next official BB release after '15 Crap Ones' rather than 'Love You', then YES!! Absolutley!!

It was a joke. You're a self-admitted Dennis lover. I posted a fake quote to suggest you'd replace the entire album with the POB tracklist.

Haha, yep you're missing the gag. :lol But in all seriousness thomasogg, would you say a song like Surf's Up and 'Til I Die is anything better that Dennis wrote? I'm a Dennis fan too, and I think if he had been given encouragement (like Brian had in the early days - including by the public) then who knows what might have happened? And I know you're biased towards Dennis which is fine but is there ANY songs of Brian's that you think is beyond what Dennis came up with?

LOADS!!! Of course! Not one member of the band ever came up with anything the equal of 'God Only Knows' or, in particular, the best of the SMiLE material (from where, of course, 'Surf's Up' originates) - but this site is full of people endlessly singing Brian's praises, sometimes when it's perhaps not overly-deserved (at least half of 'Love You'), so I think Dennis' amazing songwriting talents should be highlighted whenever possible. Anyway, what do you mean - I left both 'Til I Die' (which I adore) and 'Surf's Up' on my proposed tracklisting. I've said it before, Brian was a genius, but during this particular period in the band's history (1969 - 1973) Dennis was the most consistently great member of the band in terms of songwriting, even above either Brian or Carl. You really need to listen to not just his released material from this period, but also the wealth of fantastic unreleased/hard-to-obtain tunes he created around this time (to name but a few, 'Carry Me Home', 'Lady', 'I'm Going Your Way').
So anyway, that's what I think....

Or put it this way, does anyone disagree with me that the following albums would've been better with Dennis songs added at the exclusion of others? I give you:

20/20: Remove either 'Nearest Faraway..' or 'Bluebirds..' and replace with excellent, I Can't Believe It's Not Brian instrumental 'Mona Kanua'.

SUNFLOWER: Replace the ok 'Deirde' with the excellent 'San Miguel' (how many bands have songs of this quality in the vaults?) and the well-produced but twee 'At My Window' with the classic 'Lady'. A better album..?

SURF'S UP: See previous reply on this thread, but basically lose two clunkers (one a throwaway comedy B-side, the other a politically-dubious Mike Love crapfest) and replace with two classics.

HOLLAND: Remove nothing. Just add 'Carry Me Home' and stir.

Maybe you disagree, but use a bit of computer jiggery-pokery to mix the albums as above and you in for a treat! Whenever I record BB albums for unenlightened chums, which is often, I always give 'em the above albums with the above tracklistings. It's dishonest, but they're always impressed - something they might not be perhaps if sat listening to 'Take A Load Of Your Feet' and 'Bluebirds Over The Mountain'. (Incidentally I do actually quite like a number of the tracks I'm proposing for removal, despite their occasional rubbish-ness, but not enough that I'm not happy to sacrifice them for the greater good of humanity..)

I love them all. The Sunflower ones I loved immediately. My opinion of Nearest Faraway Place started as "boring" and only went up.

Yeh, his Sunflower songs are OK, but only OK, and why have cotten when you can have silk? Besides, I've just conducted an experiment involving several lab rats, a bunsen burner and some copper zinc, and the results actually prove that it is scientific FACT that 'Lady' is better than 'Deirdre' and 'San Miguel' better than 'Tears..'. And hey, you can't argue with science! (Unless you're some loopy creationist religious nutbag, but that's another story...)

"Lady" and "San Miguel" are a thousand times what Bruce's songs are. Just my opinion, of course...but I happen to agree with pretty much everything you've said, thomasogg.

As has been mentioned before, I think people like Love You because it came right after 15 Big Ones and before that it had been 3 years since the latest Beach Boys album. Then look what came after, M.I.U. etc.. So it stands above all those other albums from 1976 onwards. Plus, although the lyrics are really weird in places, the songs are still great catchy songs and it was the last Beach Boys album that was one cohesive work. I think Dennis's songwriting talents are getting more recognition and most fans do recognise Denny's songwriting talents. Ask people on this board if they like POB? I wonder what percentage will say that they like it? I'd say atleast 80%. I agree Denny deserves more recognition and that angers me sometimes too, but I get equally angry when people say Dennis blew Brian away creatively between 1969-1973 because Brian collapsed after SMiLE and stayed in bed the whole time.

Brian still came up with great songs in that period, NOT just Dennis. Going from when Dennis started writing songs on Friends:
(Please correct me if Ive made an error)

== Friends ==
Brian had a hand in all songs except Little Bird (which used part of Child Is Father of The Man from SMiLE) and Be Still

Brian wins by far

== 20/20 ==
Brian (new): Do It Again, Time To Get Alone, I Went To Sleep (from Friends era - still after he had ''collapsed'')
Brian (old): Cabinessence, Our Prayer
Dennis: Be With Me, All I Want To Do, Never Learn Not To Love (not really written by Dennis)

Brian wins

== Sunflower ==
Brian: This Whole World, Add Some Music, All I Wanna Do, Our Sweet Love, Cool Cool Water, At My Window, Deidre
Dennis: Slip On Through, Forever, Its About Time, Got To Know The Woman

I still think Brian wins. Although he probably didn't help too much on Deirdre, the other songs he still wrote most of if I'm not mistaken?

== Surf's Up ==
Brian: Take A Load Off Your Feet, A Day In The Life of A Tree, Til I Die
Brian (old): Surf's Up
Dennis: No songs though of course he had "Lady", "WIBNTLA", "4th Of July" that remained unreleased

So Brian wins due to no Dennis songs which sadly don't count

== So Tough ==
Brian: You Need A Mess of Help, He Come Down, Marcella
Dennis: Cuddle Up, Make It Good

This is a close one but I would say Dennis

== Holland ==
Brian: Sail On Sailor, Funky Pretty
Dennis: Steamboat, Only With You

This is again a close one and I'm undecided as I love all four songs and it's hard to choose



Although I love Dennis's stuff I still think Brian came up with better stuff overall (whether new or old material...for example Til I Die had origins back in 68 if Im not mistaken but it was still around the time Dennis started writing songs).

The only time Dennis would surpass Brian I think is 1977 (POB and Love You)... while I love both albums POB is the better album in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think if the band had allowed more creative freedom to Dennis then the band could have been WAY more successful (on a creative level) but equally the band missed out on some great Brian songs later on such as It's Over Now etc..

Don't forget that Brian was far more experienced as a songwriter and Dennis was still experimenting. If he would've gotten more time and appreciation I think he could've written songs in Brian's league regularly. Imagine what great music the Beach Boys then would have made after "Love you" (which I love)

That theory doesn't account for the many people (such as myself) who weren't alive when 15BO or Holland came out and were either not yet alive or just recently born (again such as myself) when Love You came out. So the waiting for new product, improvement over previous release, or decline in quality after it doesn't really have a lot to do with people in my situation. I think a lot of people like Love You just because it's energetic, spirited, funny and full of catchy songs.

There are different kinds of fans who look for different kinds of things in their music. Obviously, anyone who is only interested in perfectly played and sung music will not like Love You, and that's fine. Anyone interested only in lyrical sophistication won't, which is fine, too (although those fans will have a tough time with most of the BBs catalogue!). Those who are interested in what I mentioned before--energy, spirit, humor, melody--and can overlook gruff voices, out of tune voices, and generally un-Beach Boys performances and production, may find a lot of value in it.

I realise that. And Like I said I think the Beach boys would have benefited if they had allowed Dennis to include more of his songs on Beach Boys albums. All I was trying to say is that I'm sick of people saying "After SMiLE Brian went to bed and did nothing until 15 Big Ones and Dennis was by far the best songwriter in the band at that point"... I do agree though that Brian was by far the most experienced songwriter in the group and this obviously aided him in his songs he wrote around this time and that Dennis over those few years grew enormously (the most out of any member). I think as you say if Dennis had gotten more support (because he seemed to be a guy who needed some support) then who knows what may have happened, maby Dennis would have become like the former Brian (ie: writing + producing the majority of the songs on the albums)... because he showed real signs of promise throughout those albums... If only the band had given him support and if the public still actually appreciated the Beach Boys throughout this time.. I mean think about it... Friends (#126), 20/20 (#68) + Sunflower (#151) were all pretty big dissapointments in terms of chart success etc.. and some of Denny's best Beach Boys compositions were on those albums.. and then C&TP (#50) and Holland (#36) also weren't major hits either which featured four more Dennis compositions... And then an album full of oldies/most crap peaks at #8.. man some things in life aren't fair.

I agree Luther. I was just stating why SOME people like it, like obviously those who were around then (as you say), and I am certainly not one of them as I am one of the youngest members on this board. And for those who weren't around at the time, like I said in my post, the songs are just really catchy and as you say energetic and spirited.

I agree with your second paragraph too Luther. This album is FAR from what you would expect from The Beach Boys in previous efforts (or atleast before 15 Big Ones) but I think there is a certain charm in the music on Love You. I certainly couldn't accept it at first, but once you give it a chance the songs are really enjoyable. I can't really put my finger on it, but maby its the fact that I would much rather listen to it than say Pet Sounds when I'm either in a really upbeat mood or in a silly mood.

I'm totally behind you on that. I wasn't trying to critisize anything you've said, just wanted to add my opinion. Sorry...

Don't be sorry. I know you weren't criticising anything I said. I just thought you misunderstood me... Maby it was me misunderstanding you?...No harm done :)

Maybe a good way to settle this particular dispute would be for us all to just agree that I'm right about everything, always. Just a thought....

thomasogg, you made another typo. You accidentally seem to have misspelled "Luther is" as "I'm".

Good return.  :lol

"if they had allowed Dennis" ...... "if only the band had given him support"......"if the public still appreciated the Beach Boys throughout this time"......

I'm not so sure about those statements. Someone can correct me (Stebbins probably will), but didn't Dennis keep his song(s) off of Surf's Up because of a dispute about the tracking order of the songs? Was that the band's fault? Did Dennis SUPPORT the band on MIU? Or did he not contribute to the sessions because of a dispute with Mike and Al? They had to go into the can to find a song just to represent Dennis on the album, which they didn't have to do. Dennis also contributed very little to the KTSA sessions. Was this because of his "physical condition"? And, finally, on a recent thread (on this board?), Jon Stebbins said that in the 1976-1978 time frame, Dennis Wilson was the most popular Beach Boy. If that was true, maybe the public DID appreciate Dennis, at least in some way. Why wouldn't the group want to take advantage of this?

As has been mentioned before, I think people like Love You because it came right after 15 Big Ones and before that it had been 3 years since the latest Beach Boys album. Then look what came after, M.I.U. etc.. So it stands above all those other albums from 1976 onwards. Plus, although the lyrics are really weird in places, the songs are still great catchy songs and it was the last Beach Boys album that was one cohesive work. I think Dennis's songwriting talents are getting more recognition and most fans do recognise Denny's songwriting talents. Ask people on this board if they like POB? I wonder what percentage will say that they like it? I'd say atleast 80%. I agree Denny deserves more recognition and that angers me sometimes too, but I get equally angry when people say Dennis blew Brian away creatively between 1969-1973 because Brian collapsed after SMiLE and stayed in bed the whole time.

Brian still came up with great songs in that period, NOT just Dennis. Going from when Dennis started writing songs on Friends:
(Please correct me if Ive made an error)

== Friends ==
Brian had a hand in all songs except Little Bird (which used part of Child Is Father of The Man from SMiLE) and Be Still

Brian wins by far

== 20/20 ==
Brian (new): Do It Again, Time To Get Alone, I Went To Sleep (from Friends era - still after he had ''collapsed'')
Brian (old): Cabinessence, Our Prayer
Dennis: Be With Me, All I Want To Do, Never Learn Not To Love (not really written by Dennis)

Brian wins

== Sunflower ==
Brian: This Whole World, Add Some Music, All I Wanna Do, Our Sweet Love, Cool Cool Water, At My Window, Deidre
Dennis: Slip On Through, Forever, Its About Time, Got To Know The Woman

I still think Brian wins. Although he probably didn't help too much on Deirdre, the other songs he still wrote most of if I'm not mistaken?

== Surf's Up ==
Brian: Take A Load Off Your Feet, A Day In The Life of A Tree, Til I Die
Brian (old): Surf's Up
Dennis: No songs though of course he had "Lady", "WIBNTLA", "4th Of July" that remained unreleased

So Brian wins due to no Dennis songs which sadly don't count

== So Tough ==
Brian: You Need A Mess of Help, He Come Down, Marcella
Dennis: Cuddle Up, Make It Good

This is a close one but I would say Dennis

== Holland ==
Brian: Sail On Sailor, Funky Pretty
Dennis: Steamboat, Only With You

This is again a close one and I'm undecided as I love all four songs and it's hard to choose



Although I love Dennis's stuff I still think Brian came up with better stuff overall (whether new or old material...for example Til I Die had origins back in 68 if Im not mistaken but it was still around the time Dennis started writing songs).

The only time Dennis would surpass Brian I think is 1977 (POB and Love You)... while I love both albums POB is the better album in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I think if the band had allowed more creative freedom to Dennis then the band could have been WAY more successful (on a creative level) but equally the band missed out on some great Brian songs later on such as It's Over Now etc..
[/quote]


OK, several points can be argued with there methinks. Firstly, you seem to be scoring points almost solely on the basis of quantity over quality. Yeh, Brian had more writing credits than Dennis on 'Friends' and 'Sunflower', but is having his name attached to the likes of 'Transendental Meditation' and 'At My Window' really that great an achievement, to name but two underwhelming brian co-writes.. And sometimes his contributions didn't amount to all that much anyway, as you highlight with 'Deidre'. So I would therefore counter thus:

FRIENDS: Brian has ten writing credits to Dennis' five. On quantity clearly brian would win, but not the songs with his name attached on 'Friends' are great, whereas Dennis' two solo outings are terrific, a real breakthrough!

20/20: Ok, you can have 'Friends', but 20/20? Come on.. Of Brian's songs 2 are SMiLE left-overs and one is a Redwood left-over. Sad to say but Brian really was losing his mojo round about now, and occasional returns to form such as 'Do It Again' and 'Breakaway' only highlighted what was otherwise generally missing.. Dennis meanwhile was just finding HIS mojo. Both 'Be With Me' and 'Never Learn..' are brilliantly produced, weird, imaginative tracks, while 'All I Want To Do' is the kind of rocker the band really should have done more reguarly. And his out-take 'Mona Kanua' kicks serious ass!

SUNFLOWER: Again you seem to be claiming that because Brian's credited on more tracks that somehow means he 'wins'. Well, 'Deidre'? 'At My Window'? The ice-cream commercial theme tune that is 'Add Some Music..'? Brian was credited to as many misses on Sunflower as he was hits. Dennis' four songs meanwhile, two of which are undeniable stone-cold classics, are easily amongst the best tracks on the album.

SURF'S UP: No dennis songs so can't really be counted, as you say. However, note another oldie amongst Brian's credits. 'Til I Die' is of course amazing, but about now he was managing about one, occasionally two, genuinely decent songs per year.

C&TP: Along with 'All This Is That' Dennis' 2 tracks are the only ones on this album I really really care for, most of the rest of it too sloppily produced to be enjoyable. Marcella is an exception there, though the song is very much backwards looking.

HOLLAND: A genuine tie, not just between Dennis and Brian, but between all the band members, all of whom excell!

So there you go... Also worth noting is the unreleased tracks from Brian and Dennis during this period. See which you rate the better songs:

BRIAN: We're Together Again. Games Two Can Play. HELP Is On Its Way. I Just Got My Pay. Loop De Loop.

DENNIS: San Miguel. Carry Me Home. 4th Of July. Barbara. Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again. I'm Going Your Way.

Your honour, I rest my case...

(PS Very good Luther. Touche!)

No I wasn't scoring points on the basis of quantity over quality.

Friends: I'm guessing that on tracks like Friends, When A Man Needs A Woman, Be Here In The Mornin', Denny's contributions are much the same as Brians on say Deirdre.. ie: not much, probably just lyrically whereas I'm guessing Brian had a fair bit to do musically on those tracks. But honestly on the basis of quality, Brian easily surpasses Dennis here. Okay, maby Transcendental Meditation is kind of crap, but so what? Brian had the idea to do Bull Sessions on Today!.. But that is one of the finest albums of all time.

20/20 - A Redwood leftover or not, its still a great song as is Do It Again. I went To Sleep is a decent enough tune as well.. Dennis only really wrote two songs on the album. Be With Me which is fantastic.. and All I Want To Do which I've never really dug to be honest. So I think Brian wins on this album (not by a mile but still wins).. And I'm not including outtakes.. because who knows, maby Bruce has some an album full of AMAZING songs 10 times better than God Only Knows hidden in the vaults that someone is yet to discover, but I'm sorry that doesn't count.

Sunflower: To be honest, Got To Know The Woman isn't all that crash hot. Not bad, but by no means great. Forever of course is great and Slip On Through & It's About Time are too. But I still think Brian wins. I would rate All I Wanna Do, This Whole World, Add Some Music, Our Sweet Love, Cool Cool Water all as fantastic tracks..Plus At My Window which is okay, but nothing great, except the tag.

Surf's Up: both agree due to no Dennis songs

C&TP: I agree Dennis wins. But two of Brians songs are still really good songs and the other one aint too bad either. But Dennis wins. Not on quantity as you keep suggesting but on quality.

Holland: We both agree on that one.

I'm not trying to disprove that Dennis made a fantastic contribution to the band. He was the fastest growing member of the band by far and without him, the albums would have been much worse off. But then again without Brian's contributions the albums would have been much worse off aswell.. All I was trying to say is that Brian made as much a contribution as Dennis, if not more.. Of course you aren't going to agree so I say lets just agree to disagree...

By the way, I don't think We're Together Again is even by Brian is it? Isn't it Ron Wilson?

Pretty certain it's Brian. Who's Ron Wilson?
Some fair points, but have to pull you up on one point: your assumption that Brian had more of a contribution on co-writes than Dennis - says who? Ok, so you could say that the past form of these two members would make you assume Brian contributed more, but then there was nothing prior to 'Friends' to ever suggest Dennis was a great songwriter either... With Brian's light just starting to dim and Dennis' just starting to glow at this stage I don't think we can assume anything really...

Oh, and Got To Know The Woman is bloody great! That chorus is something else....

Oh yeh, and re C&TP. You say 2 of Brian's songs are good and the third is ok. But what's the third you're refering too?

"We're Together Again" is credited to B. Wilson-R. Wilson

He Come Down was the third. I love Marcella and You Need A Mess of Help.. of course this is all my opinion.. And like I said I do still think Dennis has the better songs on C&TP.

"Passing Friend" is a nice song, but way too long.

I'd say the whole Surfs Up album, man that could have been one truly great album! No Dennis songs and Mike and Al cheesy songs ruined it for me.

Every version of Vegetables.

When I listened to the Smiley Smile version (before the boot sand the box set), there was that incredible 'Smile' snippet in the end of the track, and I couldn't wait to listen to a whole track of that. Still waiting.

Agreed. Go back a few pages on this thread to see my suggested Surf's Up line-up - it could've been a masterpiece, rather than just a very good album! Oh, and sorry to mikeyj, but He Come Down is awful - the chorus is passable, but the rest? Yikes! Those lyrics, that never-ending, never-interesting stop-start bit in the middle that just sounds like nothing else other than just filling time coz they only had eight songs... (i'd always thought it was written by Mike, Al and Carl)

Some good points, I guess alot of political crap was starting to consume the band around the time of Surfs Up.  Mike and Al were demanding their shall I say less than adequate compositions be included on the album.  Brian's songs are above excellent as are Carl's, nothing from Dennis though, I guess the others didn't want Surfs Up being a Wilson dominated record and perhaps Dennis was saving his songs for the aborted solo album, who knows.

Of course by the time of LA Light Album, an almost entirely Wilson brothers offering, they didn't mind so much. Perhaps MIU had finally made 'em see where the real talent rested in the group... Though I somehow doubt it.

You have to remember that Brian wrote mainly MUSIC... Not words.. And so to did Dennis. In fact all the Wilson's were predominantly musicians above lyricists and they all had theyre collaborative partners. And I didn't see He Come Down was great, I just said okay, which I think it is.

Dennis withdrew his track(s) from "Surf's Up" by choice, because he had a disagreement with Carl.

It would be weird if the "Axis of Evil" had really blocked Dennis' tracks. It was a way better seller than Sunflower, why would they change their mind and let Dennis have 2 tracks in C&tP?  :-D

"He Come Down" is a highlight for me.  :)  Maybe a little bit too long.

BTW Another song that could have been a LOT better is H&V.

That wasn't the point...