The Smiley Smile Message Board

I was just thinking about something. If Dr. Landy had made Brian  take voice lessions as far back as 1976, do you think that Brian could have saved his falsetto? If you listen to the unreleased "Sherry She Needs Me", it seems pretty clear that Brian had some kind of falsetto, even if it was weak. If he had taken voice lessons, do you think he would have a falsetto today?

He does have a falsetto today. Listen to the demos of Midnight's Another Day and FSHMSG on his website. He's doing them like crazy in the background vocals.

Now, it's a more strained sound, and it certainly isn't at his beck and call in concert, but it still hangs around there (in the studio, at least).

Sadly, I don't think voice lessons would have helped one way or the other in the 70s and 80s. Much of that damage was cigarette and drug related. The fact Brian still has it now might be related to the fact that he currently takes lessons. (Or was as of a few years ago).

One of my favorite vocal performances of Brian in recent years was the bridge to 'Make a Wish'. His falsetto is pretty sharp there.

Well the big damage was done on purpose in 1975, but let's say from 1976 Brian never did drugs or smoked. I think then it would be better then now at least to some extent.

MBE, I've heard it before and you just mentioned it again that the damage was done on PURPOSE in 75 or so... And Ive seen a clip on YouTube from Largo in 76 or so where Brian sings Back Home and he sings in a real rough and gruff voice on PURPOSE... So was this his attempt (according to what you or others know) to sound more manly or something?

Well basically he just started smoking obsessively because he suddenly decided he hated his voice. He was at a phase where he was irrational and the major change happened in a fairly short amount of time. More then one friend of his told me this exact same story. Since there is no other explination that makes sense. considering the brief time period. I think that's the truth.

When did Brian start smoking? I know that Carl apparently started quite early, but you never see photos of Brian with a cigarette in the 60s, do you? Not even in the studio. The Beatles were like chimneys, and didn't care about the presence of photographers.

There's a pack of Marlboros on the console next to Brian on several pictures taken during the Pet Sound sessions. As for how much he started smoking in 1975, never forget that was also the peak of his cocaine addiction, at least at that time. I had a brief dalliance myself a few years ago, and that sh*t makes you chain smoke, so I'm sure that did Brian no favors either,

I thought I read somewhere (might have been the WIBN "bio") that Brian was indeed chain smoking, 4 or 5 packs a day.  Combine that with the cocaine and its no wonder his voice became so damaged so quickly.

Are you serious? The GIOMH version? It's falsetto, but I wouldn't call it good. Where "sharp" is a good word to define it in the old days--clear, piercing at times, bright--it in recent years is breathy and hollow. Including on that part. If I were him, there is no way I'd have included that vocal. I'd have had Foskett or someone else from the band do it.

And while I think that he did a lot of irreparable damage, the fact is by now he'd probably be losing it anyway. Singers lose range with age, and falsetto often seems to be the first to go from casual observation.

Thats true. He prolly would have lost his falsetto by now (although I dunno. Pavoratti kept his clear tenor his whole life pretty much.. heck, even Paul McCartney still sings in the same range though his voice wears out pretty quick anymore).

In any case, its a sad tragedy that he destroyed it.

While Brian probably went through a phase where he was self conscious about his voice (among other phases), I just find it hard to believe that he would INTENTIONALLY ruin his voice. I can think of a few other reasons why he was chain smoking, but masochism isn't one of them.

The real damage was done by the cocaine. That's what scorched his vocal chords and did irreparable damage.

There is, surprisingly, one "high" vocal on GIOMH that stands out among his best, and that is found on "A Friend Like You". The "when I look back" part, specifically. I wonder if the fact that it was duet with Paul McCartney had anything to do with it?

Bruce has said in the past that he personally believes Brian was trying to sound more like Dennis. Of course, Bruce says lots of things, many of them not true, so take that with a grain of salt.

You are thinking rational thoughts where Brian was not. Off the top of my head Debbie Keil, and Stephen Kalinich told me the exact same story on it. Brian told me himself that he wanted to sing differently without going into how he achieved it. Cocaine didn't help but the contant cigarettes was the key.

Exactly.  It was a very deliberate effort on Brian's part.  He may have been crazy, but he was a master of self-destruction.  Without the cigarettes and other various drugs, he couldn't have possible sang in such a "manly" tone like he wanted.  His voice was too sweet and clear to sound like he wanted to, not to mention he was very embarassed by his early falsettos for whatever reason.  So he took it upon himself to destroy his voice, and succeeded.  Given the damage that he must have done at the time, it's a wonder he ever got enough of it back to sing so well on the Brian Wilson album in '88 (even more amazing that he still sounds pretty good at 65!).

I like his falsetto on the Imagination album.

And if Brian had given up drugs in 1975... he'd be better off in alot of other aspects than just his voice.

Where can I get cocaine? Anybody know?  :afro

 Should've asked me a few years ago ... :lol


Yeah,then what Bruce said makes sense. Makes me wonder, though...he was doing more coke & smoke at this time, Brian or Dennis? I know in the late 70s they were neck & neck, but how about in 1975?

According to Jon Stebbins and a 1975 article in Preview magazine Dennis was even laying off the drinking in 1975. Perhaps the recent loss of his vocal range made him slow down for a while, but I think it also had something to do with Karen. By the end of 1976 Dennis was again heading in the wrong direction. I don't think Brian and Dennis ever became full blown herion addicts, but Brian's cocaine consumption after his father's death was getting bad. I think Dennis' got really bad by the end of 1977.  I am estimating on all this date wise but I think I have it fairly correct.

Cigarettes were the killer.  He was doing coke in fairly good quantities before 75' and his voice was fine.  As far as I know, he didn't start smoking intensively until 75'.  I think he was going for a manly voice.  It is well known that during the making of the Holland album, and after, he was obsessed with Randy Newman's Sail Away album.  It could be that he was looking for a Randy Newman style voice, which is rough and much deeper than his....more like Denny's voice. 

However, I've also wondered was he trying to damage his voice in spite of Mike Love et al. ?  or, Was he trying change it to please himself (i.e. achieve Randy Newman style)?  I wonder because after his voice changed, on record, he was still tasked with trying to do the old falsetto (e.g.  Kona Coast, In the Still of the Night, She's Got Rythym).  Why would you change it, only then to try and do the things you used to do?

I think this topic (including Denny's voice change) is very interesting because it completely changed the dynamics of the group (vocally and economically).  I can't help but wonder what would have been had his voice remained nearly the same, they went out on the road in 76' for a successful tour and then made Love You with his old voice and so on.  Who knows?

I read an excerpt from a book which stated that Brian would actually scream himself hoarse to change his voice.

Is that where "how loud can you yell" comes from?

I'm trying to imagine Brian's younger voice singing some of those Love You songs. Interesting.

I know I'm in the minority but I don't buy that the change in Brian's voice in 76 was due entirely to cigarette or coke- induced vocal cord damage. I believe Brian truly felt his younger falsetto voice no longer was appropriate for a 300+ pound 34 year old man. Just look at the pictures of him from the Love You era - an angelic falsetto emanating from this bear of man would sound a tad incongruous. To me the best evidence arguing against a physical cause for the voice change is MIU. To me Brian's vocals on Matchpoint or Come out Tonight sound very much like his late 60s-early 70s vocals. I don't think this sudden return to form was due to quitting cigarettes or drugs for a few months. Much more likely is that Brian wanted to (or was forced to) sing in his old (younger) voice.

Brian's late 70s falsetto (MIU) did not sound anything like his 60s falsetto.

And the theory that because Brian got fat, he chose not to sing falsetto, doesn't hold a lot of weight (oooh, bad joke), either. Jeff Foskett was a very big man until a year or two ago. And he sang like an angel. I doubt he thought, "wow, I'm hefty. I need to sing low, scratchy and out of tune."

Brian f***ed up his voice. Whether it was intentional, an unintentional side-effect of his lifestyle or both, that voice was ruined. And he never sounded the same. Sometimes he sounded slightly better than others. But never anything close to his peak.

You have got to be kidding me.  ???

I entirely agree with that statement. I think Brian sounds great on "Matchpoint". However, I think that it was mainly due to massive studio "trickery". That is, acheived by piecing together several of the best vocal takes.

Ummm....no. Sorry to disagree with you, but Brian has little to no trace of what I would call a "falsetto" voice today. Just go on YouTube, and watch the video of Brian and his backing band doing "When I Grow Up(To Be A Man)" from Norway, 2007. It's terrible.

I don't know all of the facts, to let's assume that Brian started to smoke heavily starting in 1975, like most of the people here think.  From 1975 to when Landy first came into the picture in 1976, it was around one year, give or take a few months. Even if Brian had smoked up to five packs a day, I highly doubt that one year was long enough to do "irreparable" damage.

All of this falsetto talk reminds me of Eddie Kendricks, who was the falsetto singer for The Temptations. He was what I'd call a "regular heavy smoker". That is, he probably smoked a pack or two a day, but not nearly as much as Brian did. Eddie kept his falsetto for close to twenty years before his voice showed signs of damage. That just goes to show you that you can smoke heavily on a daily basis, but still keep most of your singing voice. I think it's likely that Eddie took voice lessons regularly. I wonder how Brian would sound today if he had tried to "fix" his voice as early as 1976?

Hmmm. but Eddie didn't ingest grams of coke, urns of coffee, along with large amounts of alcohol, pot, etc on top of his 4-5 packs of cigarettes a day.  There's a big difference between the two. 

We're talking about upwards of 80-100 cigarettes a day.  Imagine how having approximately one cigarette every 7-10 minutes would feel (that's assuming Brian was awake for 12 hours a day). This is alarming when you think that it takes about 5 minutes to smoke one.....maybe longer.  The guy was basically breathing cigarette smoke for a year except for when sleeping.  No exercise, probably very little singing.  Think of the damage that would do to your breathing alone.
 
What?

Can I just ask, people keep saying Brian smoked 5 packs a day. Where is this information coming from? I've read similar things but do we actually KNOW that Brian smoked that many a day. It just seems an awful lot.

"All of this falsetto talk reminds me of Eddie Kendricks, who was the falsetto singer for The Temptations. He was what I'd call a "regular heavy smoker". That is, he probably smoked a pack or two a day, but not nearly as much as Brian did. Eddie kept his falsetto for close to twenty years before his voice showed signs of damage."

Yes, it did take time, but have you ever heard Eddie Kendricks performing in the 80's or early 90's?  His voice was absolutely ruined.

On this same subject, have you ever heard John Sebastian sing lately?  What the heck happened to his voice?  He seems to speak normally, but when he tries to sing... wow.

Yes, I have. It's true that his voice was totally gone by the mid 80's. But still, it was a gradual process that took around 15 years to catch up with him. Like I said earlier in this thread, Eddie probably had a voice trainer, where as Brian most likely did not. Also, to answer jmc, Eddie was also a pretty much confirmed cocaine user.

As it was suggested earlier, perhaps it wasn't just the residual effects of tobacco and drug abuse alone which destroyed his voice. Perhaps he really declared war on his voice...

MIU is fairly good vocally but as on pitch as something like Matchpoint is, it is a completely different style of singing. She's Got Rhythm just doesn't sound like the Brian who cut the Awake demo 5-6 years earlier or Hard Times just three years before.  In any case I think Brian himself has said he smoked as much as he could during that time. The friends I cited earlier confirm this. He just didn't stop even when eating. Had he not started smoking, drinking, or drugging years before 1975 perhaps he couldn't have done it in one year, but he merely was multiplying his bad habits. If mid 1973 was the turning point, he abusing himself constantly by 1975. In my eyes it just got to the point to where his vocal chords couldn't take it.

Brian wanted to sound like Frank Sinatra, I remember reading something to that effect in an interview, hence the Adult child album and him submitting songs for approval. Once you have that in mind the delivery becomes clearer, as well as gruffer his accent is more 'New York' if you catch my drift and quite similar to Dennis' voice.

Yeah I read that too, might have been in the Carlin book?

Anyways, like others have said, Brian was multiplying his bad habits.  He was embarassed by his high voice and basically set out to destroy it.  He didn't totally succeed (at least for too long); he managed to get some degree of falsetto back in the late '70s and into the '80s, and can still pull it off in the studio.  It just doesn't sound like it used to.  The sweetness is gone, and it sounds more forced and shrill. 

I would bet that (like a lot of things) Brian really regrets what he did to his voice back then.  Who knows how good he would sound now without all that damage?  He might still have a live falsetto, and his studio falsetto might sound a bit closer to what it used to be. 

Well we're all talking about Brian's voice like it was all about the falsetto when it wasn't. I don't think thats what he was trying, alone, to destroy. He was trying to destroy the boyish/effeminate quality which his voice had (which wasn't limited to merely his falsetto... But his tone and the timbre of his voice-falsetto and otherwise).

You're absolutely right...I think we just tend to associate the falsetto with that boyish/effeminate character of his old voice.  He was trying to wipe it all out, certainly.  However I think the falsetto was a bigger part of that, because he was becoming very embarassed by his singing on the early BB's records.  I don't remember where I read it, but he started hating that sound (which he was always self-conscious about, even in the beginning), and wanted to destroy it. 

Of, course, destroying the falsetto, as you pointed out, wasn't the only thing he was trying to do.  He wanted to sing in a more "manly" way (more like Sinatra, or Dennis), and that included trying to wipe out the clarity of his singing voice, in all its ranges.  But I think destroying the falsetto was a big part of that, because it had always made him feel self-conscious and not "manly" enough. 

It's always funny that it's generally thought he "hated" his voice in the 70's because in the Wild Honey/Friends twofer liner notes, (first page) he says (regarding "Anna Lee")
"...with my high voice taking the place of a girl's voice. I never felt bad or self-conscious about my voice because I can sing high and low both."

Though we know BW is a man of contradictions, this says something...
I still think his late 60's early to mid 70's voice is his best. Kinda thin, but still sweet but matured.

Yes, he often contradicts himself. On the blueboard awhile ago, someone posted about how Brian never liked his falsetto. All of a sudden Brian pops up and writes, "What are you talking about? I never had a problem with my falsetto. Do you?" Something like that, anyway.

But on the A&E biography, Ginger Blake remembers that Brian was self-conscious about his falsetto and afraid people were going to laugh on the night she, Diane, and Marilyn met Brian at Pandora's Box.

I would guess that Brian might feel differently about his old falsetto now just because he doesn't have it anymore.  Maybe losing it has made him appreciate it more.  But like you said, there is no doubt that he was very self-conscious about it right from the beginning.  In the Don Was doc, he said something to the effect of "I was a little embarassed about my voice, but everyone kept saying it sounded good so I kept using it."

By the way, not to start a Melinda debate or anything, but that Blueboard response doesn't seem like something Brian would say at all.  Way too defensive.

Jay, you are absolutely wrong. And you did not read my full post. That irritates me.

I wrote: "Now, it's a more strained sound, and it certainly isn't at his beck and call in concert, but it still hangs around there (in the studio, at least)."

In other words, I said outright that Brian doesn't have easy access to that range in concert (he doesn't try to sing in it most times, anyway). What I said is that Brian does have a reasonable falsetto range when he sings in the controlled environment of a recording studio.

How do I know that? I listen. Brian sings in falsetto on all of his studio albums. Is it always great? No. Is it always there? Yes. And if you listen to the demos from TLOS on his website, he IS singing falsetto on them. So don't misrepresent me, and don't say things about Brian's range that are obviously wrong to anyone with ears.

I believe it was in response to one of my posts that wasn't actually directed at him. He (or Melinda, or whoever posts for him if it isn't him) commented on how I had called his current falsetto more "ragged" than his younger self's falsetto. I felt a little bad when he read and posted. But I don't back down from the statement, as anyone with reasonable hearing would agree that it's true. And claymcc is absolutely right--he still does have a falsetto. It just isn't good or dependable. (Then again, his other register isn't really dependable either. He sings bad notes a lot these days.)

I think when Brian talked about not liking the feminine sound of his voice, he was referring to the earlier years on songs like "Farmer's Daughter", "Lana", "The Warmth Of The Sun",  and maybe even "Let Him Run Wild". You know, the ones where he got way up there, not necessarily like his falsettos on "Fun, Fun, Fun" and "I Get Around", but "high" lead vocals. Oddly enough, those are the vocals that made him special. I didn't think he was referring to his "feminine" voice of 1975. Was it feminine in 1975?

I also thought he had gotten over that "complex" by the time Pet Sounds, SMiLE, and Friends came along, though I could be wrong. Anyway, as I stated a few pages back, I never thought Brian INTENTIONALLY tried to physically change his voice, especially just to get a huskier sound.

He didn't have to! He was getting there naturally. Although it's sometimes hard to isolate, if you listen to his vocal contributions on Spring, Holland (The Fairy Tale), and "Child Of Winter" - he was already getting there. And this was before the chain smoking. Brian was a talented enough vocalist that he could've sounded any way he wanted to, including "lower", without subjecting his voice to substances to get there. Somebody above stated that you couldn't do that degree of damage in a short period of time simply by chain smoking. I agree. It was the cocaine. 

 

I agree with this, for instance on the Friends-era stuff his voice sounds great to me. I still like the tone and timbre of his voice now, even if it strains a bit.

The twist is, that if he wanted to move on and do other things as an artist, he surely wouldn't have needed it as much. Falsettos tend to be associated with a type of early 60s pop... let's say his voice had survived intact and he'd have always used it in his songs. Would this have eventually locked Brian even more into the nostalgia circuit? (from which he seems to have just about escaped...)  I am probably very ignorant but the only respectable falsetto hits in my lifetime which spring to mind are "Grease is the Word" - which was virtually 50s nostalgia anyway - and  a few tracks by the great Curtis Mayfield. Or am I wrong, have I simply missed the falsettos in front of my eyes (boy bands, etc)...?

Having a good range, be it falsetto or otherwise, is always a positive. And Brian Wilson writes music that includes wide vocal ranges. Sure, if he were going into Tuvaan throat singing, it might not have done him much good. But realistically, he is what he is and he writes what he writes, which covers a lot of ground, stylistically, but almost always features high vocals at some point or another, be they lead of background.

For that matter, on certain recent songs, the old "wailing" falsetto of Brian's can make an appearance. Perhaps the most notable case in "Cry" from "Imagination." Yes, it's processed out the wazoo, but darned if that isn't the bright, edgy sound of the 60s peeking through.

Problem is, as he ages, Brian seems to have more and more problem with vocal control in concert. His voice is, frankly, too delicate to be belting stuff out in concert -- when he does, you get the "shouty" style. When he doesn't belt, the pitch can waver. This was not as much of a problem when he started touring -- he even managed falsetto onstage in Fun, Fun, Fun the first time I saw him (in 2000) -- but he has been on the road for nearly a decade now.

I asked someone who currently works with Brian regularly about the state of his falsetto and what I was told was that Brian can still sing up there, but it's something of a force of will for him.  He also said that when Brian did decide to sing falsetto, it was Louder Than God.

That is an awesome quote!  :lol

I personally feel a lot of it is may be due to his hearing. I notice too that his ability to hit the higher notes live seems to change depending on Jeff's proximity to his good ear.  somethings that have impressed me though are: 1) On the recordings that have surfaced from this current tour, he has nailed the falsetto parts on Live and Let Die and Midnight's Another day each and every time, even when Jeff has missed them. and 2) On "I'd Love Just Once to See you", he sounds very much like he did in 1967, except for when he starts stumbling over the words.

Yes, I did read your full post. You assumed I didn't, without even asking me if I did. THAT annoys ME. i really don't think he has much of a falsetto in the studio either. At least not without the aid of processing. Listen to him try to sing Vegatables on the Beautiful Dreamer dvd. It comes out shrill, and loud. I don't think that many people here would say I'm wrong. I listened to the demos on his website too. With all due respect, if you think that sounds like a good "falsetto", then you need your ears checked.  ;)

I'm not saying that Brian can't sing at all now. He can sing, quite well in fact. He just can't sing in falsetto.

In live performance, you are correct.  That's why he doesn't usually even attempt to, which I think is a smart thing.

But in the studio, he can still pass off something that sounds halfway decent.  I know everyone wasn't crazy about the song, but listen to the demo he released recently of "Forever She'll Be My Surfer Girl".  He sounds pretty darn good, even the falsetto parts.  I'm sure they were processed to some degree, and probably don't sound as good when isolated, but that doesn't matter.  It still sounds fantastic when everything is mixed, especially on the bridge.  So I don't think it's accurate to say that he can't do it, he just needs some help making it sound good.

Every once in a while, Brian WILL hit a high note - just a single note - that does contain that emotional quality of the 60's Brian. I'm thinking specifically of "The First Noel". When Brian hits that note (and you know the one I'm talking about), it gets to me every time. Same with "Joy To The World" from a few years earlier.   

He can, just not well. It's a noteworthy distinction.

While we are on the subject of Brian's voice, I have a question. Is it true that Brian smoked even after the second Landy split? I read that he supposedly smoked and gained a ton of weight from around 1991 to 1995.

Yep, that's right.  There was even a rumor that he was doing "street drugs" again, to which when mentioned to him he replied:  "Oh God, I wish!".  I remember thinking, "Oh no, here we go again".  But he quit smoking and slimmed down by '97. 

I often wonder what made Brian stay "sober" after the second Landy split. Lady left the first time around 1978(?), and Brian hit rock bottom.  But something was different when Landy left the second time. Sure, Brian gained a lot of weight again, but he was in a lot better shape than say, 1981. Was he finally given proper medication to combat the voices in his head? It's been speculated that Brian tried drugs like cocaine to try to get away from the voices.

I've often wondered about that . There's been very little information about  the post Landy pre-Melinda time period.

About all I know that is fact is that Kevin Leslie stuck around for a year after Landy was canned, Brian smoked cigarettes until 1994 (which explains why his voice sounded so frail during that time), and Brian's conservator was somebody named Jerome Billett.

Has anyone watched that episode of George Martin's documentary where he interviews Brian? There is a segment where Brian is playing Good Vibrations on the piano where his voice sounds wonderful... He was very relaxed in the Martin's presence and his voice sounded wonderful, way better than on BWPS or any live performance I have seen.

George Martin's interview with Brian is on the Pet Sounds 40 anniversary DVD that came with the CD (but taped in 1997 or so). The part where they're in Brian's house is the most relaxed and natural I have ever seen modern-day Brian. It made me believe those who say that in private, Brian is very much his old self.

I wish someone would post that on YouTube.

I was just listening to the radio promo sessions included with the Sloop John B sessions, and the first track (KDWB) features several exchanges between Brian and Mike on the subject of Brian's voice that reveal a little of Brian's thinking. Brian insists several times that Mike be the one to perform the speaking parts because his voice is 'deeper' and 'bigger.' Mike doesn't want to do the speaking and says that Brian's voice is better, but Brian replies that his voice is too high and not big enough.