The Smiley Smile Message Board

I know that there has been infighting within the Beach Boys to this very day. However, it seemed to be at its peak in the late 70s. My specific question is about Mike and Dennis. Did they ever 'make up'? It also seems that by the mid 80s, the surviving Beach Boys were more proffesional and able to get a long in public. Insights? Thoughts? Fights? Cocaine?

I think Dennis was estranged from the Beach Boys as early as 1970. I think he felt his work on Sunflower was not lauded enough by the others, and it seems from then on he was looking at doing solo projects. He wasn't happy with the move to Holland and felt that Brian wasn't being treated right by the others especially after the use of Surf's Up as a title track (the point I think where Brian REALLY pulled away too).  Conversely I think the 1971 hand injury made it apparent that Dennis' actions were beginning to interfere with his ability to perform.

I don't think he had unmanageable problems with Mike until the firing and rehiring of his brother Steve. It occurred during a time Dennis was 1-making a name for himself as a solo star and 2-was developing a serious drug and alcohol problem. Since Dennis went into a nose dive soon after the groups short lived break up (which itself was caused partially by Steve Love's rehiring), I don't think he and Mike ever truly patched things up. Understand Mike and Dennis were always very different people, and had done some lousy things to each other before this. Yet when I look at their pre 1977 relationship, I see them both being far more willing to try to work together then afterwards.

Mid 80's? I think they were getting along semi decently, but Landy was creating problems and Brian was gradually being taken out of the band. I think when Dennis died Brian again became far less involved whether through choice or forcel Carl pulled back in a way too and stopped fighting hard enough against Mike's oldies mentality. In truth my view is that they weren't a real band from the 1977 break up on. Meaning that there wasn't a lot of group decisions that everyone was happy with, or a lot of good feeling between the members.

I'd love to read a bit more about Dennis not being happy with the band's move to Holland in '72. Never heard that before.

I was wondering why Dennis wasn't very involved with that album. I know he has no lead vocals on it. Did he sing back up or play instruments on it? My judgement from his two 'So Tough' songs was that his music didn't fit in with the Carl produced classic rock songs. Although something like 'Soul of Free' and 'Carry Me Home' would have fit well. But I'm not sure what you would take off.

I think that they had enough good material for a double album during the Holland period. But againl, with all the expenses to move the studio, etc, I'm sure it was hard enough as it was to get Brian's Fairy Tale as an extra small record.

Dennis' voice is very prominent on Steamboat, and he sings a bit on Trader, but other than that I don't really hear him on Holland. He wasn't around much cause he didn't like it there. I don't think he was even in Holland when they put the vocal on Only With You, but its probably his piano is on the track which is nice. He was probably really pissed that Carry Me Home was left off...I would have been.

Ed Roach told me about it a little. Just that Dennis didn't like how the group was getting along. The fact the Brian was decling and he didn't feel they were being helpful enough things like that mainly.

Dennis wasn't in Holland very long...he took off and spent the duration on some island or other (Ibiza?  My European geography is non-existent).  That's why no vocal on "Only With You."

I'm surprised Dennis didn't like Holland, I would have thought their liberal attitudes to 'pleasures' would have been just up his street...

De zomer van 1972 was koel en nat, het kwik kwam amper boven de 20 graden.

Translated: The summer of 1972 was cool and wet, the mercury rarely got above 20 degrees (68 Fahrenheit).

That might explain something.  :)

Sounds like the summer we've had in Britain this year!

I think that Carry Me Home would've fit better on the album then Only With You

Only With You is easily one of my Dennis favorites, yet in 1972 the Beach Boys should've had the courage to release songs like Carry Me Home or Brian's Burlesque, which Jack Reily once talked so enthusiastically about (and noone's ever heard, right?). They had released some rather "difficult" material before, so I don't get the point in sticking to the love songs again.

Canary Islands, out in the Atlantic.

I can add a bit of personal insight. When the Beach Boys toured in 1973, the band that I was road managing played three dates with them. At that point, Dennis was traveling in his own bus with just the driver, while the rest of the band traveled together.

I don't understand why Dennis didn't start a solo career aroung this time. I know he hurt his hand in 71.  But he had enough material to release a couple good solo albums before Endless Summer didn't he?

I think that Desper departing in late 1971 and Daryl Dragon leaving the year after had a lot to do with Dennis losing focus on his solo career. I know Daryl partially feels guilty about this, but I guess Dennis' wild side scared him off to some extent. The fact is Dennis could have been a fantastic artist on his own but bottom line is that he was afraid to leave the Beach Boys for good. If he had I think he would have had a longer life.

Dennis Wilson was unhappy with the direction the Beach Boys were going in the early 70s. From his perspective, he was upset that The Beach Boys were releasing albums like Holland, that everyone knew would be unsuccessful, and his songs like Carry Me Home were being rejected that he felt could give them a come back.

Yet from the other Beach Boys' perspectives, Dennis Wilson was a cold, callous jerk who was not supporting them and often was performing quite badly...

It's only natural that touring arrangements would get strained.

But regarding Dennis' solo album. It was pretty good. Songs like Thoughts of You really did have hit potential, but he wasn't being taken seriously by his record label as a solo artist, and he was still considered an active member of the Beach Boys. But why didn't he just quit the Beach Boys?

Well, maybe he had some sort of contractual agreement. But more than likely Dennis didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, including his brothers and his fans in the Beach Boys. Dennis was a very good person and would have tried to be able to do both - The Beach Boys and his own music.

But, his solo album wasn't released until after his death, and it just never got off the ground, so he stuck with what he knew.

His solo album wasn't released until after his death? I'm pretty sure it was released in 1977, six years before he died.

Much as I love Dennis' songs, I think that everybody's material for the Holland album was just great. How in the world would he know that the Holland album project was going to be unsuccessful? At that point in time the Beach Boys could have done a lot worse. Carry Me Home is brilliant and so is what I could make out listening to a bootlegged version of I've Got a Friend. Yet I wouldn't want to miss the California Saga either. Dennis complaining about the M.I.U. Album is alright with me, but there's no point in being dismissive about Holland.

You're very correct.


That first part could well be true. When the Beach Boys no longer had their own studio in which he could work as he pleased, that also must have been a problem for him. But the last sentence, I think might be a bit over-speculative. If Dennis had left the Beach Boys he'd have had fewer outside pressures on him to remain sober enough to work. Obviously, that didn't work anyway in the long run, but the band did try to get him cleaned up enough to continue touring, didn't they? Who's to say that if he had left in the '70s, he wouldn't have REALLY gone over the edge for good and died in a car crash, of an OD, etc., even earlier? (Clearly there is no way to know. Maybe being away from such sources of frustration would have reduced his desire to abuse chemicals. Nobody knows.)

Man there is some bad info infiltrating this thread...sheesh. Dennis solo LP, of course, came out in 1977 when he was still doing pretty well as a living being. And COLD?? Never have I heard Dennis described as cold by anyone who knew him. He could be a jerk and callous at times, but he was a warm, warm guy. None of the Wilsons would even know how to be cold. Not in their DNA. And the whole thing about Dennis traveling in his own bus during the Holland period had nothing to do with inter-band relations...far from it. Dennis chartered his own transportation so he could go off the proposed route and take fishing side trips. He'd often invite band members, side-men, even fans to go with him. Sometimes he'd go it alone. He bought new fishing equipment, hip boots, poles, reels for Al one time and took him along. The whole River Song idea sprung out of one of these river encounters during the Holland tour period. Sometimes anecdotes need a bit more research to actually bring perspective. Dennis had an alcohol problem that got worse in '73...but he cleaned up in '74/75 and POB sprung out of that health kick. He bought the Harmony, hooked up with Karen, got backed by Jim Guercio and went about making Brother HIS studio, dialing into the potential in a way none of the other BB's ever did including Brian and Carl. His engineer Earle Mankey told me Dennis "out worked" everybody during that period. That's why POB is so good. We all know what followed, but 1974 - 1977 were very good years for Dennis, and he recovered from the Holland doldrums in a big way.

Perhaps you are right. Just wishful thinking on my part. Fate is fate I suppose.

On "Only With You", he sings a harmony to Carl on the coda ("All I wanna do, oh / Is spend my life with you, oh").  On the live version they peformed in concert that Fall, he sang lead on an extended coda.

As for "Carry Me Home", what Dennis told Timothy White ("It was too NEGATIVE!  How could I put that on a Beach Boys album?") suggests that it was his own decision to leave it off the album ...but reading between the lines, I think he's implying that other group members "helped" him reach that decision.

That makes sense, given that Brian had to beg them to put 'Til I Die' on Surfs Up.

Thanks for the info. I guess the fact that he was struggling with drugs/alchohol more from 71-73 explains why his solo career was delayed. Although I did read your book on Dennis Wilson, I forgot about him cleaning up in 74. That's interesting.

I suppose that one of the biggest blaims for a lack of a solo career for Dennis would be Dennis. It's very sad, but I have no doubt that he had the ability musically to make it on his own if he had the self discipline. Not only that, but he had the looks and stage presence to be a star.

Ed Roach is convinced Dennis subconsiously "sabatoged" his own solo career (in every way from picking an out-of-focus photo for the album cover, to OK'ing a muddy mix, to calling off the solo tour).  Why?...fear of the unknown.  Face it, The Beach Boys were a safety net.

In much the same way, Brian refused to launch a solo career for over two decades (if the "Caroline, No" single had been a hit, you can bet he would have).  No doubt, pressure from the family "guilted" Brian into sticking with them, but I think his fear of the unknown had as much to do with it.  Landy's the one who convinced him to go for it when the Boys turned down his offer to produce them in the '80s. 

Oops.

Jon, all I really said was that I saw him emerge from his own bus at several tour stops. I suppose in the context of this thread, it reads as if I had some insight into problems in the band. I have no idea what was going on, and didn't mean to suggest that I did. I can also tell you that Mike asked us if he could meditate in our dressing room, and Carl asked us if he could throw up in our bathroom, but I didn't think either of those things mattered in this context.

Wow...Carl was just the polite-est guy, wasn't he?  Most musicians would just DO it!

As a matter for fact, Carl did seem like the nicest guy, despite his request. I didn't really get to know him, but he was very cool in that one encounter.

Clearly in the later 70s its obvious that Dennis was frustrated. He was against the 15 Big Ones album and didn't want anything to do with MIU.  He planned to tour on his own in 1977 but backed out. He worked on a second solo album, but didn't get it done.  Despite his talent as a singer and songwriter- his role in the BBs was defined onstage as drummer and singer of one song.  After awhile that gets boring. When you can do a job on auto pilot and and are not being challenged and you feel that you made a big mistake- that is a recipe for depression.  Like Brian-he probably should have taken the plunge and left the group, but the family dynamic kept him in-to his own unhappiness

Saying Dennis backed out of his solo tour leaves a slightly skewed impression...it was a pretty complex thing. I didn't know the details when I wrote my book, although i had a very strong hunch... but it has been confirmed to me in recent years that DW was given an ultimatum by the Beach Boys organization in late 1977. There are eyewitnesses to a meeting. Do the tour and you're not in the Beach Boys anymore is what it was about. It was that simple. He had the solo set rehearsed beautifully(tapes exist)with a band consisting of the best of the BB's sidemen, Munoz, Carter, Hinsche, Figueroa and Ed Tuleja...and Carl too. But the BB's gave him the ultimatum and DW "stepped back" as Ed Carter commented in my book. From here Dennis went into free fall. And i appreciate all the Dennis related commentary here, by everyone, I don't mean to over-correct or exude bitchiness to those whose comments I have followed or reflected on...I'm just trying to keep it real. Thanks dudes and gals!! I love Dennis Wilson!!

Let the search begin....  :-D

So if Carl was supportive at Dennis, the BB who put the brakes on his solo tour were Mike and Al?  I'm assuming BW wasn't involved, but maybe I'm assuming too much.

Dennis was the one to blame for his problems, for not doing that solo tour, for not finishing Bamboo, for wrecking his own life.

I wonder if he had any friend who would say that to his face.

I, for one, think it's really cool to have you and other very knowledgeable and even authoritative members on this board. Frankly, it doesn't take much to skew things from "I know" to "I read" to "I think I read" to "I think I heard," and the facts become jumbled beyond recognition. Many of us are more than happy to be corrected, especially as it adds more interesting depth and humanity to the people whose music we all enjoy. And it seems to me that any "bitchiness" you may ever exude is innocent, just as caught up in the moment as the innocent mistakes and mis-statements of other posters who are caught up in their own moments. For the most part, everyone keeps it respectful and cool, which is what makes this board great.

That's ALL he was hearing from family and many,many friends for the last few years of his life. Have you heard something different?

Mr. Bear:  It seems like you're advocating the hardass "tough love" routine.  Fine. Sometimes playing the "tough love" card just makes you an ass.

No, I was really wondering.

I wasn't there, I can't tell you the best way to help Dennis in '79 or '81 or '83.

Can you?

I've heard it expressed by some in the know that Dennis not being allowed to do the solo tour in '77 is what started his spiral (in addition to some of what Stebbins has posted).  It's probably more complicated than that, but it's significant that when Brian and Dennis advanced to a certain point, the band as corporate entity made life extremely hard for them to keep moving in that creative direction, basically shutting them down...and in both cases (and you could argue Carl as well to a lesser degree), that's when their lives took a hard left turn for the worse.

How much of Brian's and Dennis's creative output of that time would the Beach Boys have accepted as Beach Boys material, if given the chance? The gist of a few of these posts is that the band said, 'hey, you're a Beach Boy--quit doing your best stuff elsewhere.'  And honestly, I can understand that sentiment coming from a Love or Jardine if it meant those people would focus back on the group itself. On the other hand, if they didn't want it in the Beach Boys or want it elsewhere, it gets more problematic.

When I think of Brian's material from that era, I think about things like Adult/Child, which was a Beach Boys project, at least partly. The others are all represented in some capacity or another. But what about POB? I know the band did "River Song" live on occasion. Would they have or did they consider some of the other material as Beach Boys material?

(I look forward to finding a next-edition copy of Mr. Stebbins' book on Dennis, as I've never found it in a used bookstore and--sorry--I'm not going to pay $75-100 or whatever for a copy on eBay. [No disrespect, Jon.])