The Smiley Smile Message Board

I was reading the opinions of people on the GIOMH topic, and a few questions came to me that I thought I'd ask the more knowledgeable people here. My question is, can Brian still produce an album totally on his own, from start to finish? I know that many people don't like the backing vocals on GIOMH, so I'll make this a little easier. Is Brian still capable of leading his touring band through sessions for an album? Can he still be the "boss", like he was in circa 1966? Is he still mentally capable of it ? Is he emotionally capable of it? Has he ever gotten over his post 1960's Smile failure? What I mean is, does he still get the urge to "give up", like most accounts of him from the mid 1970's talk about?

See his 2005 Christmas Album for all you need to know about this topic :)

Also, go over to his website and watch the videos of him in the studio recording the Christmas album. 

Jay: I think a more important question is this. Why is it important?

If he can, does it make things better? Most feel even his best albums since the 60s have been helped along by others; even on "Love You," Carl tied together the loose ends. So if he still has the ability, he hasn't often used it.

If he doesn't, then he's just been doing the best he can, but we have to accept that he isn't what he once was.

Either case doesn't give you an answer that I expect you want. He's either 1.) been lazy and not bothering to do his best or 2.) just not capable of it.

I think a lot of BW fans espouse #1 but fear #2.

Myself, it's not so important. I will enjoy what I get and let history sort out and fight out the rest. I care about BW as a person, of course, but I feel reasonably confident that he's being looked after -- certainly not drugged to the gills and videotaped like he was in the Landy years. And beyond that, I don't know what else I should want or expect.

I agree with you totally, claymcc. It was just a thought that I had. I guess I'm just sick of all the YouTubers making comments, and making it seem like Brian is either a raving lunatic, or a vegtable.

No. His solo career since 1986 is ample proof of this.

Staged - and I have this from the very best of sources.

AGD, when do you reckon was the last time that Brian was really on top form, do we have to go back 40 years ago?

I hope, and I pray that I never get so fucking cynical that I no longer believe my eyes or my ears.  What a horrid place that must be. 

OK - let's have a look.

Brian Wilson - co-produced with Russ Titelman, Jeff Lynne, Andy Paley, Lenny Waronker and an uncredited Gary Usher.

I Just Wasn't Made... - co-produced with Don Was

Imagination - co-produced with Joe Thomas

GIOMH - produced on his own, even though he didn't want to do it.

BWPS - 'produced' on his own, with heavy assists from his 'musical secretary'

WIRWFC - as above.

If being cynical is noting the album credits, and talking to people who were there that I trust - then yes, I'm cynical.

I'd have to say that the last album that was a solo Brian Wilson production from start to finish was Pet Sounds. Love You is a largely BW work, but Carl added the final polish, and 15 Big Ones is a similar story.

I must add that I have enjoyed much of Brians 80s to current day material (songwriting wise), regardless of whoever was 'really' in charge....
It's funny really, because the production on a lot of the last 20 years of stuff has been pretty duff, if they'd just left Brian to it (no matter how rough it was at the time), it would probably sound less dated today.

So then, what about the recording session footage for the BWPS DVD?

Staged?  Recreated?  Bogus?  For real?

Wittingly, or unwittingly, this totally answers the initial question. The answer is somewhere between Unlikely and No.

More interestingly, we should ask the questions: Why do we still care? And, why is there a part of us that still believes that Brian might wake up one morning with all the lucidity of '66 and produce another masterpiece, even if he does go back to sleep again afterwards.

Point taken - shall we say not 'staged', but in some cases, 'recreated' ?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that Brian Wilson was only in total overall control of whole albums for a few years in the mid-60s (maybe '64-'66) ?

That before that time, and after then, he's generally worked with other people, apart from some songs where he "seized the reins," normally to make a particularly great track...?

I'm not saying this is true, but it kind of gives that impression...

Doesn't make a dimes worth of difference.  How many over 60 artists produce themselves?  If I were Brian I'd focus on doing the vocal arrangements and let some young "hot-shot" do the rest.  Have a beer, a steak, and finish off with a piece of birthday cake.

And by golly get a good lyricist if VDP isn't available.

There are two terms I never thought I'd hear together: Love You and "final polish."

Love You.  Polished with cannibis butter.  (see Marilyn thread)

But seriously.  A lot of the legendary artists who still work and make albums are not creating like they did in their prime.

There are producers, managers, co-writers, consultants and so on.  Nothing wrong with that per se.  No one can be endlessly inventive and creative year after year. 

But fans want new material.  Record companies want new product and they want it atributed to the legend getting paid the  big bucks.

So we settle for a few gems from time to time.  And I have to say Brian has done that albiet fewer and farther between as the years have gone by.

AGD said what I wanted to say, but better...

I will add this, however. Of course, Brian CAN produce an album, but look at the results. I mean, listen to GIOMH and What I Really Want For Christmas Are My Old Teeth. For someone of Brian's reputation, that quality is so below his past standards, IMO.

Some people will dispute/differ on the quality of the Christmas album. But I come back to Clive Davis. After BWPS, Clive was so excited to sign Brian for the follow-up, which turned out to be WIRWFC. I haven't heard so much from old Clive in his desire to sign Brian for another project.

Do you really think that Clive Davis cares about album quality? Look at the other artists he represents. He cares about sales, sales, sales. And for a Christmas album, I don't think Brian's sales were half-bad. For a Christmas album.

As far as the quality goes, the main complaint I hear is that it's a Christmas album. For what it is, I don't see how you can do much better. Even the BB 1964 Christmas album wasn't fully produced by Brian-- he didn't arrange the traditionals. This supposedly was, and I think it's pretty darn good. If you like Christmas albums. I do, and I enjoy WIRWFC. Brian's presumably going to release TLOS on CD. Let's see what happens there.

BTW, I'll agree with the people who say that it's okay if Brian can't "do it all" anymore. The mere fact that he can still arrange harmonies is enough for me, and a lot of his latest music has been far above what some of his contemporaries are doing, in my opinion. Paul McCartney's "Dance Tonight," anyone? Yuck.

Amy, nobody likes Christmas music more than me! The first day the temperature falls below 60 degrees, I'm getting the stuff out, which won't be long now. Actually, I was listening to some Perry Como "Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas" this past July.

Anyway, I respect your opinion on the Christmas album, I just don't care for it. To me, Christmas music is either spirited (on the fast songs), or spiritual (on the carols). WIRWFC is neither. It just doesn't touch me. Brian's thing used to be the "spiritual"; he wrote the book on it. I was glad he attempted a Christmas album, I looked forward to it, although I wish it would've been a Beach Boys' Christmas album. Everytime I listen to it (which is hard to listen to in its entirety - too much yelling), I can't help but think what Brian used to do with those kind of spiritual tracks. "Joy To The World" comes close, even with the dit-dits...

Maybe someone over there should give Joe Thomas a call (I kid, I kid).
Actually, I really like Joy to the World too.

(Warning, this rambles.)

Not to give Bill Clinton answers ("It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."), but I think the title of this thread would be impossible to answer without parsing the sentence and defining words. Luckily, the original poster also asked additional questions so I will try to get to the point of his primary question:

- Can Brian still produce an album totally on his own, from start to finish?
- Is Brian still capable of leading his touring band through sessions for an album?
- Can he still be the "boss," like he was in circa 1966?

And others.

Each of these really amounts to something different unless you're looking for an end result: not only can Brian produce an album or lead a band, but will the resulting album be as good as Pet Sounds was. If that's the intent of the question, I think almost anyone would have to say no. But that isn't an insult to Brian Wilson any more than it is to McCartney to say he can't do another Pepper or Dylan unable to do Blonde on Blonde, etc. People by definition rarely top their best work. If Brian couldn't in 1964, 1965 or 1967 do better work than Pet Sounds, it seems unlikely that he could now.

However, the man has a tremendous amount of musical talent. He's certainly capable of compiling a list of songs he's written or likes. He's certainly capable of explaining to musicians how he'd like it played. He's certainly capable of arranging vocals and explaining those parts to musicians. The results will be different because everyone's results are always different, even after six months. This man is 40 years past his greatest work, his voice is in rough shape and he has suffered various amounts of mental and physical damage from various causes. None of those things would prevent him from leading a group through an album if he wanted to do it.

If he doesn't do it on his own, there is a good chance he isn't interested in doing it. That's different than "can't." If he doesn't give something the attention listeners would like, there is a good chance he isn't interested in doing it. I mean, seriously: would anyone tell me with a straight face that Brian Wilson--BRIAN WILSON--cannot hear the sloppy vocal performances on parts of GIOMH? I have to believe he is perfectly capable of identifying the difference, and he knows perfectly well that the way to fix it is sing it again, or get someone else to sing it again. His failure to do so doesn't really mean he can't. It means he won't. Or hasn't recently.

In case that rambled as much for you as it did for me, what I mean by summary is this:

Brian Wilson is an immensely talented musician, and some of those gifts he was born with or worked for don't just go away. You don't forget those things. He could still produce an album. He is fully capable. He has the know-how. But if you're looking for an artistic breakthrough, that's an entirely different thing, and it is probably fair to say his era for such things is long past. Sexagenarians don't generally break new ground. More likely is a continuation of the less-stressful collaborations on material that feel good to him--music that fits within established ground he has long since explored.

A quick comment on whether WIRWFC's spiritual nature: I'd say that is a tough ground to cover or define. I mean, I am not a spiritual person in any way. I have no particular affinity for Christmas, sentiment about it or religious beliefs with regard to it. And yet some of the moments on that album are more "spiritually" touching to me than plenty of other Christmas (or non-Christmas) music.

The quality of the playing and singing on that album is pretty strong. The arrangements are decent-to-very good. The new songs are quality. To me, those things are measurable, and they're measurably good. The spiritual nature is a "to each his own" kind of thing. (Some people probably hear BW's "spiritual love" in the 88 solo album, and to me that sounds as dead as can be.)

Good post, Luther. I have to question you on this, though.

DON'T those gifts go away? COULD'VE they been lost to drugs and mental illness?

Also, to first say he IS an immensely talented musician, with GIFTS that just don't go away, then to say an artistic breakthrough is long past - well, is that a little contradictory? Isn't his musicianship and those gifts he was born with or worked for actually his art, or a big part of his art?

I think the Christmas Album is a masterpiece for Brian, and I trust Mark's comments (who, btw, was there for every session, and was there for sessions nobody else was present at I assume as Engineer!) that Brian was in control.  I love that album, the singings great, the production is great, and pretty much every track has some clever Brian magic sprinkled over it, from the background vocals to the beautiful bass line in "Hark The Herald Angels Sing".  I mean what other person but Brian would think up "OOOH, WHOOO OOOH OOH oooh oooh oooh!!! Merry Christmas!!!!".  Plus like we always go back to, Brian's proven for 40 years that you can't make him fake excitement.  If he ain't into it, he ain't into it.  

SJS, I think there is a point where we have to differentiate between the learned part and the inspirational part. The latter is largely subjective, of course. (For that matter, check my post about the spirituality of WIRWFC.) I don't think Brian Wilson has the creative and innovative nature he had when he was 21-26 years old. This could be largely due to age, of course, although illness, drugs and whatever else probably contributed, too.

But that's just a part of the overall picture. Brian undoubtedly still understands chord structures. He understands how to lead multiple voices (theoretically speaking--leading one tone to another, like resolving a major 7th to the root) to traditional resolution points. He knows boogie woogie bass lines and ii-V-I progressions. And I'd dare to say he still understands texture in music, knowing that it adds dramatic effect to add strings to this second verse, or drop out instruments and sing that part a capella. I doubt those technical things have left him because he can still sit at a piano and play around with chords. To me, anyway, that is enough.

Granted--and I don't think I said different--the knowledge of what would need to be done plus the physical ability to stand there and do it over a period of weeks does not mean even that will be done--not even an entirely individually done solo work. It could be done. He could do it. He could individually and entirely produce a competent piece of music. But he has chosen not to, I believe because he isn't interested in exerting that much effort in a pop world that passed him by a long time ago, that he conquered before that, etc.

Yeah, a lot of the opinions/interpretations/responses to this thread are subjective I guess. I don't want to beat it into ground, but wanted to add one final thought on spirituality, and attempt to re-address the thread topic.

I find a lot of spirituality in Brian's Beach Boys' music. I can't define it, but I know when I hear it. Examples of this are "In My Room", "You Still Believe In Me", "This Whole World", hell, even the end of "A Day In The Life Of A Tree" gets to me. Dennis had that gift, too.

Anyway, that's what I'm looking for in Brian's new music, and what I'm thinking about when I answer the question of whether he can "still do it".  I want to be moved!!!! :police:

Some of those same ones get me. (Others, I admit, don't.) And frankly, I think it's a mystery that neither of us will solve. People who are entirely competent musicians have been releasing technically sound but entirely unaffecting music as long as there have been musicians and music. Some people touch some people, and in some instances they're lucky enough to touch a large number of them. People imitate those musicians, but generally without success. And those musicians themselves sometimes have to imitate themselves without success.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that Brian Wilson will likely continue to use his musical skills to basically imitate himself. And if we're lucky he'll still have his moments of indefinable brilliance. I am entirely confident he hass all the skill and knowledge to do the former. I am hopeful but doubtful about the latter, other than in brief moments.

 I've often wondered how much Brian's environment, circle of friends, and recreational drugs had in inspiring him during the Pet Sounds/Smile era. From what I have read in some of the books about Brian/Beach Boys, Brian was curious about a lot of different subjects and was never hesitant to explore new sounds and ideas. I don't think Melinda would cater to Brian if he had wanted to paint the walls purple, decorate the house with lava lamps, blast Tibeten throat singers at 3 a.m., get the kids to participate in a one hour round of Shortnin' Bread, or break out the bong while inviting the Flaming Lips to spend the weekend.   :hat

 Another thing I've wondered about is the prescribed psychotropic drugs Brian is currently taking.  I've smoked a lot of Pot, taken LSD a few times - but nothing made more "dopey' than when I was on anti anxiety pills or anti depressents. The anti - depressents didn't make me stupid as much as they gave me a "narrow" window of emotion. Remember when Brian did that interview on the Mike Douglas Show? He may have sounded a little manic but he was definately more lucid than he seems today. Maybe Dr. Landy was responsible for over medicating Brian, but who can say for sure.
 
 I wish I could experiment on Brian, gradually take him off his meds, find some hip musicians and friends who would inspire him, and encourage him to be eccentric. I wonder if it would work, or as a previous post said - that most people his age aren't producing ground breaking material. Interesting thread and I am enjoying reading all your opinions.

There's your moral dilemma-- take Brian off his meds and have him be miserable and depressed, but possibly more creative, or keep him on and have him show only glimpses of brilliance. I vote for option 2. The genius is dormant, but at least the man has some peace.

The problem is that nothing Brian does will satisfy. If TLOS turns out to be brilliant, people will say Brian must have had a lot of help. If it's bad, Brian didn't have enough help.

I think that during the 60s, the stars were aligned. Brian was on drugs that exaggerated his moods, not controlled them. He was young and energetic and curious. He had a group to support and a recording contract to fulfill. He had a father to please. He hadn't really failed yet, so his confidence was high.

Now he's on mood controlling drugs. He's older and has less energy. He has nothing to prove. He's had enough mediocre reviews and bad experiences that his confidence easily flags. And of course, he's mentally ill. So, as Luther was saying, he still has that gift, but the environment for exploiting it to its full potential isn't usually there. When it is, when he gets an idea and a burst of energy and calls Scott or calls Van Dyke, he makes Midnight's Another Day and TLOS.

I think it's exciting that he's making music at all. I mean, he's about to perform something new, and here we are still arguing about whether he can write great music. Let's see if he can. He claims that music is flowing out of him again. Maybe he is finally finding a new environment in which he can make brilliant music again.

I agree Amy. With some fans it seems to be a no win situation for Brian. When he churns out something that of a much higher standard than a lot of his solo material the focus is on who has written what and how much help Brian has had. I don't understand this mentality. I think if you're a BW fan, surely when he creates a good song it's a chance to celebrate, otherwise why not give up on him entirely? What are you waiting for?

I wonder if some fans are hoping for new music that is as important and brilliant as Pet Sounds, and that when the new material inevitably doesn't measure up, it's much easier to argue that Brian isn't motivated enough, or that he's had assistance, than it is to admit that this is as good as Brian can produce now when he sets his mind to it. What these people don't seem to realise is that Pet Sounds was also a product of an incredibly dynamic period in pop music history. It's no surprise that McCartney hasn't managed to top his Revolver/Sgt Pepper period songs, or Dylan hasn't managed to knock out a better album than Blonde On Blonde. Even if Brian hadn't had significant mental health problems, I'd argue it would be impossible for him to top or equal Pet Sounds nowadays. The best we could hope for is for him to produce highly respectable, more mature music in the vein of Dylan's critically acclaimed recent output. Hopefully Brian may come close with That Lucky Old Sun.

And only 6 days to go before we find out. That's us in the UK, of course!   :hat

Dylan, of course, has also had 'help' - from the people he's plagiarised!   :lol

Brian needs his meds.  He has had episodes of psychosis.  He hears voices. 

The fact that he is functioning at all can be attributed to good medical and psychiatric management and being surrounded by supportive people who insist that he be productive.

I think sometimes he cares, sometimes enjoys the music.  But a man in his mid 60s, with a history of psychosis and mood disorder can't be expected to create like a healthy 20 something at the peak of his prowess.

The fan must appreciate Brian for the legendary and mature man he  is today.

To me, seeing Brian sitting front and center, singing SMILE and Pet Sounds to an adoring crowd, was one of the great concert experiences of my life.

Doesn't matter that I seldom or never listen to GIOMH.  Incidentally, Desert Drive , performed live , was great.

What might be nice is a compilation of live cuts cullled from the performances of the past few years since theRoxy album.

I think the received wisdom now is that Brian does act as “producer” in the sense that others do the scut work for him (the details of orchestration, recording, mixing) for which he has no patience anymore.  He takes the result and then OKs it or sends it back with notes to fix this or that.   In that sense he gets final say and thus earns his title. This appears to me more common than one might think, though it does conflict with the older notion of iron-willed Brian watching every note of PS or GV sessions like a hawk.  Consider these other similar examples of loosey-goosey producer credits:

Rick Rubin in a recent NY Times article says that, except for when he worked with Johhny Cash, he usually takes a very laid back approach to production, just checking in now and then and critiquing the results.  He’s not in the control room every day, or even most days.  Yet he earns his title due to his authority role through which he can accept or veto what he’s heard.  During the White Album days, George Martin frequently was absent and the Beatles would record themselves, though Martin would be there to critique, mix and add his stamp as needed and thus earn his title.  Joni Mitchell’s first LP has David Crosby’s name as producer, but he says he told Joni to use his name so the record company would see an “established” name as producer; otherwise he left her to do what she wanted.  Did he earn his title?  When you think about it maybe he did. Procol Harum’s “Shine On Brightly” lists Denny Cordell as producer, but in fact he only produced the single, then left to focus all his attention on Joe Cocker.  His assistant, Tony Visconti, actually produced the remainder of the LP with a reduced credit (and did a better job anyway).

Most famously, Steve Sholes, the original named producer for Elvis at RCA, had no clue how to record him and so the sound of the initial RCA sides was, to a great degree, devised by Elvis and his band on the spot.

To me the most interesting example of a “hands-off” approach was Miles Davis during his electric phase.  He would run down the fundamentals of a new tune with the band; they would start playing and he would leave the room. Then he’d come back after a while, pick up his trumpet and join in.  Was he leading the band?  In his way, yes he was.  Then after the recording he’d leave the assembly of the tracks to Teo Macero to edit, cross-fade, or repeat sections as seemed best (esp. “Bitches Brew”).   

Re laid-back producers:  George Martin, in his book, complained about a producer who just sat back, lit a joint, did nothing, then told the band "Great take!"  Anybody ever confirm who he was talking about?  Martin said it was a big name.

I think you're spot on about Brian's production credits Tim.  Like you said, he doesn't have the patience to be the General Patton of the studio anymore.  That's not to say he couldn't still do that if he really wanted to, I just don't think the motivation and energy are there anymore.  So he lets others like Darian do that work for him.  Nothing wrong with that.  GIOMH is evidence of what happens when Brian just throws something together without really caring.  Obviously a 23 year old Brian would have been appalled by that album.  But Brian probably feels that did his hard work when he was younger, and doesn't have anything to prove to anyone at this point.

I wish he was talking about Jeff Lynne.

Can Brian still do it?

Well with help it seems he can!

End of thread?

Yes...and Yes.

When I started this thread, I didn't mean to ask "Can he remake something as brilliant as Pet Sounds". I think what I meant was, can Brian be locked in a room with only him and the "Wrecking Crew", and come out with something that isn't a total disgrace?

I never thought that anything he's ever released was a total disgrace.

Maybe you should check out this new album he's premiering live around the world, called "That Lucky Old Sun".  Basically, it kicks ass and he and his new wrecking crew wrote it.