The Smiley Smile Message Board

If you could change and alter Brian's "Smile" before its release, what would you change?

I would've gotten rid of the useless, irritating "I'm In Great Shape" medley and just started the third part with Vega-Tables.  Otherwise, it's fine.   ::)

I assume you're asking about BWPS, yes? If so, I wish they had skipped the studio recording altogether in favor of a live one. For example, the Carnegie Hall performance blows the studio version out of the water, imho.

The other thing is about "Good Vibrations" -- I have a strong dislike for the Asher lyrics, which sound like temp placeholders to me. I think it was a huge mistake not to use the hit version lyrics. At least then I wouldn't have to program the player to skip GV! (Although I do admit I like the symmetry of starting and ending with "Our Prayer.")

i love the i'm in great shape part...wish they woulda ellaborated on it more...
gv asher lyrics- yeah, not a big fan either

for me:
a wistling section in vegatables would have been cool.

Have it recorded on the original equipment, same way as 1966-1967 also.



Not include Good Vibrations.


Work in the little extra pieces we know about which were junked for sake of better flow and less weirdness. 

The original Smile was based on the 1800's west, thats why Brian used all the weird instruments and im sure he wanted it produced that way musically when it was finished. Smile 2004 gets away from that so that your not really sure about the theme. That and IMO the Wondermints are vocally inferior to the original band. But thats not a knock on them its just my opinion. Its not something Brian would be happy with in 1967...put it that way.

I wouldn't touch anything about it and those who say the live version blows the studio version out of the water obviously needs to clean their ears out. There are moments in the studio version that simply can not be recreated in a live setting. I didn't hear any vega-table munching during vega-tables. There was no jaw harp used. To timpini's during roll plymouth rock. Plus all the obscure background vocals that you hear for the first time after listening to the album 10 times. It's a work of studio masterwork.

I would change the sequence of the songs. For example "Workshop" after "Fire" (rebuilding). I wouldn't change anything that was recorded and sequenced in the 60's. -> "Wo-ooo" was originally part of "In The Cantina", missing parts in "Do You Like Worms" & "Wind Chimes" etc... But SMILE '04 is excellent like it is.

At the risk of getting flambe'd (I think that's how you spell that)


I would change H&V around.  It's a little overbearing to me, it just goes on and on with the addition of the "gee" part before it.  If you put the CD in and listen straight through, it seems like you're listening to H&V for a friekin' hour or something.  Now I know at one point Brian was gonna make the whole album revolve around that song or something similar or at least that's a theory... and it's a GOOD song, but in my opinion it doesn't hold up to repeated (I.E., 10,000) listenings.  Not really sure how I'd make it different, and maybe this is the only way it works at all, but I think the length of the song is a weak spot on the album.  The rest of the album changes up pretty rapidly keeping things interesting, but the H&V section seems to go on forever.  Maybe I'm just tired of the song, but I don't seem to be tired of the second or third movements, for instance.  I'm reluctant to play the album for my friends because they'll get stuck on the same friekin' song playing over and over again at the very beginning of the album. 

All in all, though, the album is of course one of the greatest ever released, Brian did an incredible job and even the too-long H&V section is nothing short of brilliant.  Hey, you asked, though!

Also, i'm not digging the Heroes and VIllains chorus. I don't like it on Smiley and I prefer the versions that run through up to the Cantina section and tape explosions.

"Studio Masterwork"?

Or Pro Tools know how?

I wish they included the version of Heroes and Villains that had the "healthy wealthy and often wise".. also, the Heroes and Villains Pt. 2 vocals that Mike Love used as backing vocals in live versions of Heroes and Villains; the "duh heroes, duh heroes, duh heroes and villains" thingie.

Also, stick with one version of Good Vibrations.. the BWPS version is Tony Asher's verses combined with Mike's chorus.. how silly.

And they could've gotten Paul McCartney back to chew on Vegetables.. and now that I think about it, they don't have the soda pouring into the glass anymore, do they? That should be back in there, too. And I prefer the Smiley Smile backing vocals on Wind Chimes.. for the first ten listens or so I have to sing them myself so it wouldn't sound off.

I would have made it about 100 times longer.

I've always hated that part of the song...

I agree with you. Never made it through 2004 H&V more then a few times, now i just skip it. Roll Plymoth Rock also has one too many chorus after several listens.

I would've used the hit version's lyrics of GV. That's the only thing I'd change.

SMiLE is pretty much perfect as it is, but there are one or two things that bug me:

- of course I would remove that sound at the very beginning of "Our Prayer".

- I would make the background-vocals on the Hawaii-part of RPR quiter, so that the guitar would be more prominent.

- longer breaks between the movements.


That´s it.

What sound is that?

You realize the last time this train of thought was followed, the album ended up getting shelved.

That said, I feel everyone involved should have shut up and did whatever Brian wanted in terms of the preliminary tracklist, bootlegs and recording dates be damned.  Incidentally, if anyone can post that (the tracklist with Time To Get Alone and, I think, Diamond Head) I'd be greatly obliged.

I would have done something in the Barnyard/OMP area. It's the weak spot on the album and ruins first movement, thus making it my least favorite.

No "whoo whoo" in H&V.

Other than that...perfect.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 BRIAN'S LIST
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
OUR PRAYER
TIME TO GET ALONE
BICYCLE RIDER (Link)
DIAMOND HEAD
DO YOU LIKE WORMS
HEROES & VILLAINS
HOLIDAYS
                 (Link)
OLD MASTER PAINTER/YOU ARE MY                   
        SUNSHINE
WONDERFUL
                  (Link)
SONG FOR CHILDREN (AKA "LOOK")
                   (Link)
CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
                   (Link)
CABINESSENCE
                   (Link)
WIND CHIMES
FALL BREAKS AND BACK TO WINTER
VEGETABLES
FIRE (Mrs O'Leary's Cow)
I LOVE TO SAY DADA (w/"Cool Cool
Water")
WORKSHOP (i want to be around/friday night)
SURF'S UP
<<end SMiLE>>
__________________________________
<HOLIDAYS
<BARNYARD
<I'M IN GREAT SHAPE
<YOU'RE WELCOME
<CAN'T WAIT TOO LONG

There we go, thanks.  I really like Diamond Head leading into DYLW and Fire as FALL BREAKS gone to hell.

Edit:  What's the source for this tracklist?  The DVD, an interview?

Yeah I was also wondering were that tracklist came from

-I would exclude the woohoo part before 'you're under arrest' in H and V, it's the one thing that doesn't seem to fit IMO
-Glad they didn't do the 'often wise, three score 5,'-bit
-The last part of H&V which can be heard on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey-bonustrack. I believe somebody else said it too.
They recorded that lot's of times in the 66/67 so I'm sure it should be on the definitive disc.
 

The rest is great
Still, if the Sessions Box set isn't going to be put out it's a freakin' shame
They could even try to do something like all those fan-mixes that have been around, but of course
with the SMiLE 2004-tracklist. This is what  Brian wants it's his call, I hope...

Confidential.

Realistic changes/revisions I'd like to see made:
-Remove digital tick at start of Our Prayer
-Fix DO YOU vocal to be more like original H&V (where it isn't even an explicit phrase)
-Use real tack pianos and harpsichords
-Better, goofier, "You're under arrest!"

I think all of these are crucial to my not enjoying SMiLE as much as I would otherwise.

Because I like the music and wish it was in there:
-Get 'False Barnyard' in there somehow

At the end of OMP/YAMS!

The others I 100% agree with. I love it like it is, but those things were within the realm of possibility - unless, say, "get Brian's voice like it was in 1966".

I remember it being up on the old Smile Shop.

I wonder if that list is an example of Brian getting senile, of if that is what Smile would have looked like, if he had worked on it till the fall of 67. Apparently he still worked on solving the Smile puzzle even after they had abandoned it and maybe songs like “Time To Get Alone” and “Diamond Head” was somehow written with a hypothetical Smile in mind, of course I don’t know when it was written. “Diamond Head” somehow sounds like a variation of  “Workshop Song” or the other way around. I wonder why they didn’t use that list, did someone convince Brian, that those tracks didn’t belong on Smile. It looks more logical to me.

Søren

-- gotten ahold of a flux capacitor and the necessary jigga-watts to get the delorean back to 1967.

I agree with Mitchel--get "False Barnyard" in there! And more importantly, "Vega-Tables Part 3"! I really wish they would have used fades on the album. I think it could have been much stronger. Not everything has to completely flow together in order for it to be coherent. And sometimes I feel like it suffers because they put the songs immediately after each other with no breaks. For example, I think the break between "You Are My Sunshine" and "Cabinessence" should be at least a couple of seconds in length. It just seems too rushed, like they were trying to scrunch the songs right up next to each other, whereas with a two second break you would steel feel the coherency, in fact I think it would have been even smoother. I also wish they would have incorporated more of the "Heroes and Villains" intro, not necessarily at the beginning of the song, but somewhere on the album.

The second movement is flawless in my opinion, except for the outro to "Surf's Up." Once again, I think this definitely would have benefitted from a fade; and I also think they should have done it like the original. On the original it starts out with a few bars of just the "Child" vocals, and then the "A children's song..." voclal kicks in, whereas on BWPS it starts off immediately with the "Children's song..." vocals. I don't like it that way nearly as much. Also, Mike's bass vocals on this part really make the original recording fantastic. I'm not saying they needed Mike up there singing it on BWPS (though it would have been nice, but I'm being realistic), but they desperately need a decent bass vocalist.

I love the third movement, but I don't think the "I'm in Great Shape" intro fits in with the rest of the album.  I know it's the Cantina section, but the orchestration doesn't fit in with anything else on the album, though it does sound nice. I also don't like the transition between "Workshop" and "Vege-Tables." I'm not sure how I would have done it myself, but come on, a crossfade?!? You can do better than that, Brian! Everything else is great (except for the "Good Vibrations" lyrics)! "In Blue Hawaii" is amazing! It's probably my favourite song on the album, and I love the transition between "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and it. Looking at that preliminary trackllist, I'm really thinking "Fall Breaks" would have sounded really good in the third movement, and the rest of the tracklist looks like it might be very interesting. Then, of course, the fake tack piano and harpsichord are completely inexcusable! I don't really mind if they record it on Pro Tools (though it probably would have sounded much better had it been recorded analog), but please use real instruments! As I said, it's inexcusable. That's the best word to describe it. Anyways, overall it's a great album, and I enjoy it very much.

I thought the bass-area vocals on the CD version of Surf's Up make it one of the fullest sounding tracks - and Brian's lead is stronger here compared to many songs (on which the live DVD has the better leads).

My one and only change would be the structure of Child Is Father - i.e. use the '3-minute backing track' version which returns to the final (half-) chorus at the end; you could lead from this directly into Surf's Up without the slightly (ok, very) artificial bridge on strings.

Having said which, the Brian tracklist is fascinating - never seen it before. How confidential is that source?

Isn't that alternate list just a list of songs that could be included, given to Brian?  I thought that was gone over a lot in the past.

We're not going to have a Secret Smile Shop now, are we?

Oh, I missed a few that others mentioned:

-Tag to Surf's Up, I like the fade and delay before "A children's song" part, too
-I don't like the strings in the Child is the Father of the Man bridge to Surf's Up, I'd rather there be none at all (that goes for all of the extra string flourishes, actually, though I do like the intro to I'm in Great Shape)

"...without the slightly (ok, very) artificial bridge on strings."

NO WAY!!! That´s one of my favourite parts on the album. Gives me shivers almost every time I hear it.

I think SMiLE is breathtaking and I am sure glad there is a studio album and not just a live recording.  I made a cd of the performance on the DVD and it's a nice alternate listen, but doesn't hold the candle to how well recorded and produced that album is.

- I would remove the "woo woo" before "Barnyard."  No need for that and it sounds idential to the one before "you're under arrest."

- I'd include the extra bit of "bicycle rider" in "Worms."  Where it plays again and slows down like a music box, etc.

- I love the second movement, but I agree on whoever suggested using the longer "Child" backing track.  It's too short, but wonderful.  And I love how it goes into "Surf's Up."

- I would have included more parts of "Vega-Tables."  It's too short and we're missing a lot of the great segments that Brian recorded for it. 

I have no problem with Asher's lyrics on "Good Vibrations."  I think it's a good change.  It's a wonderful performance as well.  Very powerful.  And I'm glad they included some new sections.  I love that "hum de dum" part.

I'm not really buying that supposed list of Brian's early ideas for the 2004 SMiLE.  It has "Child" in the middle and "Surf's Up" at the end..  and in the documentary, we see Darian playing "Child," and Brian excitedly saying "was that before Surf's Up"?  He knew how it was supposed to flow!  There's no way "Time to Get Alone" would work.  "Diamond Head" would be nice, but never in the '67 version.  That version of SMiLE would have been an hour long.  Interesting to think about, but nowhere the cohesive whole the brilliant 2004 disc is.

Yeah, the tracklist there was songs considered for the live "Songs from SMiLE" thing that they were pushing Brian to do, not "Finished SMiLE". It's still really neat. I wonder if it was just elements from some of the songs, not the songs themselves, that he meant.

But it's presented as a cohesive whole, with parts not of the whole listed seperately (and Holidays listed twice, hmm.)  This is clearly more than a "random songs for Brian to pick from" list.   I'm inclined to believe it's from Brian as I don't think anyone else would have a precedent for including "TTGA.'

Add He Gives Speeches
Subtract Good Vibrations (I agree, if they used the original lyrics and maybe spruced it up a bit, would be better)

I dont hear the click track in Our Prayer...

I would have used real pianos throughout the entire album, rather than synthesized ones.

According to Linett hey used real pianos! Only the tack-piano and the harpsichord were faked.

Didn't we all know about it before Smile was done?

Yeah, the regular piano is definitely a real acoustic grand piano, no question about it.

I agree that “Time To Get Alone” and “Diamond Head” seem a little out of place on Smile, but maybe Brian didn’t intend them in the arrangements and with the lyrics we know today.  He reworked a lot of songs over and over again. I don’t think TTGA seems like a strong enough album opener, but who knows what version he might have intended, it’s just interesting, that he apparently connects these songs with Smile, even though I think most people, who was presented with that list would say “Brian, are you sure those songs were intended for “Smile“, and of course maybe people would be right, maybe he mixes songs from different periods up.
Anyway the tracklist seems very much like an americana/elemental type of tracklist, like suggested by Domenic Priore and it’s also interesting that it’s presented as a whole, with link tracks and so forth. About him saying that “Child” was before “Surfs Up” he might as well have just been referring to the finished version.

Søren

Do we know Brian wrote it?  I thought Darian made it and presented it to Brian for consideration, which is why some of that stuff isn't in the final version.

It's not a click track, it's a sound. You're better off not hearing it. Once you do, it'll be obvious every time.

It's called "Brian's list" and as far as I remember it has also been presented before, as a list Brian had written and if it was made to Brian for consideration, where is "Good Vibrations". It would also seem strange that a Smile scholar like Darian would give songs like TTGA and DH such a prominent place in the lineup, and what about the link tracks,  but of course I don't know for sure.

Søren

I think there were several lists presented over the course of the preparations for the SMiLE tour. Does Andrew G. Doe know more about them?

I would have used the DW " You are my sunshine."  I would have nixed the merda lyrics Asher wrote.  I think BW does a heartfelt vocal performance.  I love BWPS alot but it does suffer a tad in the vocal glistening due to the fact that the harmonies sound a bit too isolated part-wise(you can tell who is singing what part).  I don't truly believe BW with all his faculties would have envisioned SMILE the way it was released.  As far as a western theme of the wild west, Nah it is there in fragments sort of but not thematically.  BW's semi-roasted voice is nice though IMO.

We knew about Time To Get Alone, just up until the list came to light it was never considered as part of SMiLE.  (As far as I know.)  Therefore it seems awkward that anyone but Brian would insert it in a proposed tracklist.

On BWPS I would have loved to have seen George Fell Into His French Horn in it and All Day complete.

I would've cheated and flown in the original: " .. you're under arrest!" line.

I'm sure these have probablly been said already (didnt read every post) but changes:

-Have the whole band do the "Gee" section on the album (Brian's layered vocal on this just doesn't do it for me. Give me the original BBoys vocals on this segment anyday)
-Original Good Vibes lyrics  for sure
-REAL Instruments (harpsichord, tack piano, etc. etc. etc.)

That's pretty much it for me.

Right smack in the middle of Surf's Up would GFIHFH be placed.

Something hit me just last night maybe.. is Brian singing "Fresh clean air around my head, mornings tumble out of bed" in I'm In Great Shape? It sounds like he comes in on the eggs and grits line; I think it would be great if he sang the whole thing.. I love the original version so much better and I think I finally found out why.

Taylor sings Fresh Clean Air...
Scott sing Morning Tumble...

Brian sings it on the original piano demo only.

Heroes and Villains, Roll Plymouth Rock, On a Holiday, Cabinessence, Surf's Up, Old Master Painter/You Were My Sunshine...a few fragments.  A very western wild west theme.

Those notes are long gone for Mr. Wilson...

That hasn't stopped him before!

It's no big thing, but I think its actually Jeff and Taylor doubling that "Fresh clean air" part. Watching the DVD I was surprised by the number of parts that are doubled or tripled.

I only wish the audio release would have been (or would become) available on hi-resolution DVD-A or SACD. The vinyl is great, but I don't play it often so it'll stay in pristine shape.

Musically, I like it all! I really liked the harmonizing on the Tribute video with Vince Gill, David Crosby, Jimmy Webb and Jeff all singing the "a children's song" line at the end of Surf's Up. I'd love to have heard that with BW and band on the recording.

I like the Asher lyrics for GV - the single version with Mike's lyrics are fine too - the Asher lyrics give the Smile track a diferent feel that seems more appropriate to me.

Does anyone really think if you asked Brian today, he would even remember having an instrumental called "Diamond Head"?  He didn't even remember doing "White Christmas" on the 1964 Christmas album for crying out loud.

This was before there was a finished version.  Darian was playing him pieces of music he had on his laptop to help Brian sequence SMiLE.

 I don't like Van Dyke Parks new lyrics in Blue Hawaii. Where Brian Sings, "is it hot in hell or is it me? It really is a mystery. If I die before I wake",  etc. When I first heard the original bootleg version I envisioned Brian as this Psychedelic Shaman creating this mantra. The new lyrics kind of kill that mood for me.  I don't think this section calls for lyrics although Brian may have wanted lyrics for it back in 1967. I love the lyrics to Surf's Up.  Van Dyke and Brian were smoking hash back then and were in a certain mind set then that I'm not sure that could be recreated 37 years later. Also, as much as I dislike Mike, I think his lyrics flow better on Good Vibrations than Tony Ashers do. I wonder what kind of lyrics Van Dyke could have written to Good Vibrations?

He has a reputation for remembering the strangest things and if it was something close to his heart, I guess it would be a possibility. If you don't believe in that, why do you believe he remembers how "Smile" flowed?


Isn't that staged, it doesn't look like Brian's home. It also sounds like he's asking Darian "Is that before "Surf's Up"? and Darian answers something like "Yeah, it has that kind of vibe".

Søren

Of course it´s staged. It was filmed in a studio, with camera and lights everywhere. Very obvious faked. I think it just should give the viewer an idea how they worked on the sequence.

 I have a bootleg from Smile where the song Wind Chimes doesn't have a set instrumental part. there is a part where at the end of the verse where he says "Wind Chimes" there are muliple voices that repeat the words 'Wind Chimes" except its really close harmonies (Not a chord) like you would hear if you hit all the pipes on a wind chimes where all the notes are produced. I always thought that was genius - having voices simulate wind chimes. I guess it was just an experiment but I thought it sounded cool.

You just reminded me on another thing I would change: the layered-piano-section in "Wind Chimes" should go on longer.

I think there's a big difference in his likelihood of remembering a cover song done during a highly prolific period and an instrumental sound collage thought up during an inactive period, yes.

Change Smile?! CHANGE SMILE?!?!?!?!

BLASPHEMY!

I thought Diamond Head was just a jam, anyway.. isn't that why the session musicians were given composer credits?

I think if you listen to the marimbas on the old version, they are also supposed to sound like windchimes in the breeze likewise the the tinkling pianos. That's an effect that's a little lost in the new version, because the marimbas are played a little more heavyhanded than on the old version. But I think that's a general trait on Smile, that he wanted the music to more concretely illustrate the stuff, that they were singing about. Just like the ideas he had of using sounds of water and like the hammers and drills on  "Workshop Song"

Søren

So did I, but somebody has also said that part of it originated from the Smile era.

Søren

Yeah, he did an interview on XM radio a few weeks ago, and the interviewer asked him some obscure stuff about songs from the 60's, and Brian not only remembered the songs, he could play them on piano and sing the melodies.  And I'm not talking about big hits, it was strange stuff like early Danny Hutton songs and things I'd never heard of... and I've been listening to 60's music daily for all of my 27 years

I honestly don't buy into that whole thing about him forgetting tons of songs.

He is a very contradictory sort. He did say to Darian "WE DID THAT?!" upon hearing Do You Like Worms. But then again, he was able to spontaneously play nearly all his Sunflower contributions on the piano during the Lost Hotel jam.

I think the "WE DID THAT?!" thing was a joke on the part of BW.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, but I can dig that.

Brian's no dummy. He remembers EVERYTHING. Why do you think he held such a grudge against Smile for so many years? He remembers everything, that man. He's a wizard (no, not THAT wizard!).

Rundgren?

Either him or Charles Manson.

FUM HIM THE MOURDOROUS BASTARD!

No schieght?  What did this involve?

He was around good friends. Bruce, Jeff Foskett, and John Stamos. He also played some Sweet Insanity tunes with different lyrics. Bruce's masturbation comment is something that could potentially come back to haunt him if this tape ever was released in full as an archival project.

Foskett and Johnston requesting them!
Brian, unfortunately, only really wants to play his horrid Bread-retread Let's Rock.
But he plays Add Some Music, Cool Cool Water and This Whole World on request.

He plays a lot of oldies too. The tape's quality is horrible both in sound and picture quality. Shitty camera I guess.

The version of Why Can't They Let Us Fall In Love is heartrending to me.
Also, when he calls Surf's Up "p*ssy!!!", that's a golden moment.

And this is uh, available?  I could care less about Bruce masturbating, at least for the moment, but Brian playing Brian at the piano is always a good time.  I think if I ever were to interview Brian in person, I'd just set up two pianos and try to get him to play every song he ever wrote for me.  Something about hearing the song how he had it pre-realization is very interesting.

The audio is easier to find than the video is.

I don't know if I got a bad copy or not, but the picture on my video is very scrambled, although the sound is pretty good.

I couldn't quite figure out what Brian was doing there. Was he a "Beach Boy" at that particular time?

That's how the picture looks on every copy. Bad camera.

This was just a jam session in a hotel room, I believe it was after a show in San Carlos, CA.

It was during the Sweet Insanity era.

for child is the father of the man..id like for the outro 2 be smooth and slow like the intro and fade away..that'll be beautiful :)

F.U.CK OFF.

+1

wtf.

This thread hasn't been posted in an almost six years! It's not like the subject hasn't been brought up again.

Me thinks, instead of starting a new thread, he's using an old one to address the just released album.  But yeah, probably should be a new thread.

A little strong on the reaction, don't you think? "Smile"! ;D

Well to be fair, in the past 24 hours Newguy has been making it his business to make sure nobody cuts him any slack, ever.

lol ppl go hard on this site :] lol

Ooops, my bad.  Hadn't noticed it was the "Dude, put up two songs on You Tube for me" guy.  Please ignore my previous post.

Only with fuckwits and shitweasels.