The Smiley Smile Message Board

Alright, lets have a good discussion on what could have been done to improve a BW/BB album...I'll start with the Surf's Up album...I'd leave it called Landlocked...I'd take out Student Demonstration Crap, replace it with I'm going Your Way (California Slide). I'd also take out Take a Load off Your Feet, and put Wouldnt it Be Nice to Live again...think of how good this album would have done on the charts...

I would include Fourth of July and Soul of Free

MIU should have had 'Almost Summer ' on it, what a great song!
Sunflower should have been a sprawling double album with all the appropriate songs on it.
Holland should have had 'We got love' and 'Carry me Home' on it, excising the California saga parts 1 and 2.
15 Big ones (if it exists at all in the parallel universe we are discusing) should have been an all oldies album and should have also included - 'Shake Rattle and Roll', 'Sea Cruise' and 'Ruby Baby'. The craziness of this album would be amplified even more!

Pet Sounds add GV's, plus a better cover, although in 2007 it's kind of cool in a un-cool way. :smokin

'Guess i'm dumb' and 'Sherry she needs me' on Summer Days.
'Time to get alone' and 'I went to sleep' on Friends
'Marilyn Rovell' on Love You

'Loop de Loop' and 'When Girls Get Together' on Sunflower.

Perhaps tempting controversy.....Would you take anything off those albums?

Bugged at My Old Man?  (too "tossed off"?)

Transcendental Meditiation?  (Which I actually like, but others seem put off by it)

Love is a Woman?  (Sometimes I think it the album would end better with Airplane)

"Transcendental Meditation" should have been saved for 20/20.

Obviously, "Bull Session With Big Daddy" should have been dropped from TODAY; add "Guess I'm Dumb" right after "Please Let Me Wonder" to fill out the side.

Oh yeah, on "Smiley Smile" replace all the "SMiLE" material with the actual "SMiLE" versions and replace "Fall Breaks", "She's Goin' Bald", "Little Pad", "With Me Tonight", "Gettin' Hungry" and "Whistlin' In" with "Do You Like Worms?", "Look", "I'm In Great Shape","Child Is Father Of The Man", "Cabin Essence", "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", "I Love To Say Dada" and "Surf's Up".  ;D

It's easy to improve any Beach Boys album post Friends - add some unreleased Dennis songs, take out the weaker non Dennis tracks.

Just a general answer to the question without addressing any specific albums...

The biggest problem with the Beach Boys' albums was not the songs that were included on the album(s), but the songs that were EXCLUDED. They didn't necessarily have to delete any of the songs that ended up on the albums, but they should've added some of the superior songs that were left in the can. The Beach Boys' albums were too short to begin with. You could improve almost all of The Beach Boys' albums by an entire grade by simply adding a song or two.

I figure y'all ain't gonna like this one, but here goes: ;)

The Beach Boys should have been the vocalists on the Brian Wilson album. Why do I say that? Because so many of the songs on BW sound like they were written for the Boys' leads and bg vox, subconsciously if not intentionally. And yes, I mean it should have been a BEACH BOYS album, not just a BW one.

And remember, that's just my opinion; I don't think it would have been a particularly feasible scenario, given the times. Landy would have never let it happen, even if everyone else had been amenable (with all other politics being set aside).

one of the most superior songs that is mind boggling as to why it was left off an album is Soulful Old Man Sunshine

Ain't gonna like it? I AGREE with it 100%

With the exception of Pacific Ocean Blue, none of the Beach Boys had anything to say - musically - outside of the Beach Boys. And that includes Brian's solo albums. Especially Brian's solo albums.

With this band, the whole is absolutely greater than the parts. The Beach Boys' solo albums have proven that. And I have a feeling Al's new album will fall into that category also. I will continue to beat the proverbial dead horse. Each Beach Boy - Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce AND DAVID, should contribute their three or four best songs to a single Beach boys album. Get a producer to unify the sound, use all of the guys' voices, and you have a legitimate new Beach Boys album.

I like that album a lot, anyway, but YES!!!!!!  Just thinking about how that would've sounded has made my day! 

I've long thought this, and I think with some songs - like Night Time; it sounds like it was written for Mike.

I think Love And Mercy, Melt Away and Little Children would have Brian vocals no matter what.
Walkin' The Line would have been Mike on the verses, Al on the choruses.
There's So Many - Bruce on the verses, Carl on the rest.
Let It Shine sounds like an Al song.
Baby Let Your Hair Grow Long and Meet Me In My Dreams would've been Brian and Carl.
Night Time like I said sounds like a Mike.
Rio Grande - Al and Brian mostly, but with Mike on Night Blooming Jasmine and Carl [with Brian] on the "I wanna tell you that she's so fine" bit.

I like the idea of "fixing" Beach Boys albums because, to me, every one of them except possibly Pet Sounds (and maybe even that...) could've been improved with as little as one or two replacements--using existing material, no less. (In fact, I think I did a thread on this topic months, maybe years ago. Funny how we return to things.)

TTGA and I Went To Sleep both would've sounded perfect on Friends, with Transcendental Meditation kept off.

Sunflower and Surf's up both could've been dramatically improved any number of ways. The latter, to me, only really NEEDS SDT removed, but there could've been other changes made. Sunflower, for me, is about 50-50. I would have loved Good Time and Susie Cincinnati, at least. But I also like some of Brian's silly ones from the time: HELP is on the Way, I Just Got My Pay, etc.

And Soulful Old Man Sunshine should've been finished and put on there, too.

With all the *finished* tracks in the can, there's no way in hell So Tough should've only had 8 songs. Anything from the  Sunflower & Surf's Up time period  could've been put on there. SO what if, say, "Games Two Can Play" doesn't sound anything like the rest of the disc. "Good Time" sure didn't sound like the rest of Love You!

Really, C&TP is nothing but songs that don't sound like each other. You can really tell the guys were just working on their own projects with the Flame-based stuff, the Dennistuff, the Mike/Al based stuff and the Brian songs. So I'm with you: toss in two others and you're good to go.

On the Good Time thing, though, I really, REALLY think it should've been on Sunflower (perfect fit) or Surf's Up....not a perfect fit in terms of its silliness compared to the "serious" (I hate "serious" Beach Boys sometimes) ecological topics on the album, but still similarly good sounding with that amazing engineering and production the Boys had in those years.

This thread has got me interested in something I have been meaning to do for awhile now. Burn off a CD of released 67-early 70s material, minus a lot of the songs discussed here.

May work out a play list  over a bottle or two this weekend. :beer

That is similar to a few things I've tried to do. Things like, OK, pretend the Beach Boys only released one album in the span in which, in reality, they released Wild Honey, Friends and 20/20. (In other words, a more modern timeline, when bands take a lot longer.) What could that album be? Or do a "better" (meaning Lutherized) version of [album] using songs that were available.

It is a lot of fun, and I have historically found myself listening to those more than real albums, even to the point of being surprised at the track orders when I put the actual albums back on.

Not to mention, the "over a bottle or two" part sounds REALLY good.

You're right about listening to your own album more than the original. About two years ago I did a "Best Live" mix and I have not played Live in London or BB Concert since. In Concert still gets a turn now and then.

I'll know when I have had too many brews. It will be when that well known Mike/ BB hit from 67 makes the cut. "Back In The USSR". ;D

It would be easy to  combine tracks from So Tough and Holland to make one killer album (with an unreleased track like It's a New Day or Barbara from Dennis thrown into the mix).

Great cartoon

Or how much better would Still Cruisin' have been with Spirit of Rock and Roll and Love Ya on it?

Or Imagination with the Beach Boys on vocals? That would've been great. If there's ever a reunion concert (which there won't be) I hope they do some Brian solo tracks, especially from Imagination. I love Imagination, but it would've easily been on of my favorite albums ever if it were a Beach Boys album.

i'd love to hear a BB version of South America & Cry

Those were exactly the two songs I was thinking of. South American sounds like a perfect song for Mike to sing, except I can't imagine anyone but Brian singing "I'm hungry and I'm doin' lunch with CAMERON DIAZ!!"

Ok here is my list.

Th

Wild Honey:
 include-Cool Cool Water, Can't Wait Too Long and Gettin Hungry
 disclude-I Was Made to Love Her and Mama Says

Friends:
 include-I Went To Sleep, Time to Get Alone, A Time to Live in Dreams, Lonely Days and Old Man    River
 disclude-Transcendetal Meditation

20/20:
 include: Soulful Old Man Sunshine, Break Away, Celebrate the News, and Loop De Loop
 disclude: Blubirds, Cotton Fields, I Went to Sleep, Time to Get Alone and Smile out takes (because in my world, Smile would've come out in 1967)

Sunflower:
 include: San Miguel and Barbara
 disclude: Got to Know the Woman and Cool, Cool Water

Surfs Up (Landlocked):
 include: Fourth of July, Soul of Free and Lady
 disclude: Take a Load Off, Student Demonstration, and Surfs Up

So Tough/Holland (double album with Mt Vernon and Fairway):
 include: We Got Love
 disclude: He Come Down and Only With You

15 Big Ones:
 disclude: all of it

Other post albums should include: Winter Symphony, Still I Dream of It and Its Over Now

Melinda once posted on the blueboard that Carl really wanted to sing on the album, more specific it probably was "Lay down burden", but that he died before he could record vocals.

I copied a 20/20 that was a little more 1968 specific - it goes like this:

Do It Again /  I Can Hear Music / Bluebirds Over The Mountain / Be With Me / All I Want To Do / The Nearest Faraway Place /
Cottonfields
[hypothetical side two]:
Ol' Man River [Hawthorne version] / A Time To Live In Dreams / I Went To Sleep / Time To Get Alone / Never Learn Not To Love / We're Together Again / Old Folks At Home - Ol' Man River

And a 1969 specific Sunflower:

Slip On Through / This Whole World / All I Wanna Do / Got To Know The Woman / San Miguel / Loop De Loop / Break Away
[hypothetical side two]:
Celebrate The News / Soulful Old Man Sunshine / Games Two Can Play / Forever / At My Window / Cotton Fields [45]

I never understood why so many people think that GV should've been on Pet Sounds. First of all, it wasn't done yet. The GV backing track from the PS sessions is not nearly as good as the final one. Second: musically, it fitted better on Smile than on PS. Third: I think that Smile would've been cancelled months earlier if GV would've been on PS, because the sure inclusion of GV on Smile probably gave Brian just a little more time and credit for that album. And I never understood Capitol's 'no hit singles' comment about PS. Until then, they usually took just 1 of 2 singles off the Beach Boys' albums, and with "God Only Knows", "Sloop John B", "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and "Caroline No", PS had more than enough good single material.

honestly, i think GV should have remained a single and not on any album...kind of like Hey Jude isn't on any specific album (i know past masters vol. 2)

In America, Hey Jude was released on "Hey Jude" the album, in 1970..

tracklisting:
1. Can't Buy Me Love
2. I Should Have Known Better
3. Paperback Writer
4. Rain
5. Lady Madonna
6. Revolution
7. Hey Jude
8. Old Brown Shoe
9. Don't Let Me Down
10. Ballad of John and Yoko

yeah, i knew somebody was gonna post that...what i meant was that it wasnt intended for an album...kinda like breakaway (with the exception of reverberation) was on spirit of america

I know what you mean. "Hey Jude" as a gathering of singles. I bought it, and loved it when it came out. I can't agree with you that GV should have been a stand alone single. I can see it on the finished Smile, and I imagine that album to have been released mid-march, 67....oh, well....

Back where this thread started:

I can understand why people DON'T like "Student Demonstration Time" but as someone who bought that flat piece of vinyl back in the year that it was originally released, I can say that the song had real resonance for me and belonged on the record.

It's OK with me for people to pull them apart and put them back together knowing what we know now, but "back in the day", America WAS stunned on May 4 1970......

I like SDT too it kicks. It also worked well in American Band.

Just add Dennis' tracks. He was by far the most talented song writer in the group from '68 onwards.

20/20 - replace 'Bluebirds..' with 'Mona Kanua'

SUNFLOWER - replace 'Dedire' with 'San Miguel' and 'At My Window' with 'Lady'

SURF'S UP - tracklisting as follows SIDE ONE 1. DON'T GO NEAR.. 2. LONG PROMISED ROAD 3. WOULDN'T IT BE NICE (TO LIVE AGAIN) 4. DISNEY GIRLS 5. STUDENT DEMO.. 6.
A TIME TO LIVE IN DREAMS/ SIDE TWO 7. FEEL FLOWS 8. LOOKIN' AT TOMORROW 9. 4TH OF JULY 10. A DAY IN THE LIFE OF.. 11. 'TIL I DIE 12. SURF'S UP Now would that not have been the album of there goshdarn career?

CARL & THE PASSIONS - Replace 'He Come Down' with 'Barbara'

HOLLAND - Add 'Carry Me Home' to side two, between 'Trader' and 'Leaving This Town'

See? With just a few Denny songs added here and there and suddenly the albums improve x50!!

You were right with your first sentence (just add Dennis' tracks), but you don't have to replace any songs. There was enough vinyl on those above albums to accommodate an extra song or two. No need to elimate any; just adding another track would've made a significant difference...

I don't agree that Dennis was the best songwriter from 68 onwards--I prefer Brian's material, even as it was more limited, all the way up through MIU, after which I pretty much despise all of the material by everyone. But Dennis did have a lot of good songs that were unfortunately left off. Of course, many of Brian's interesting songs of those same years were also left off--that was just the BBs' way from the late 60s on.

As for adding without subtracting--you must have about 20 minutes' worth on C&TP! Eight songs???

True, you could just add the songs without subtracting, but wouldn't 20/20 be better without Bruce's awful take on 'Bluebird..'? Would anyone actually want to keep 'Take A Load..' on Surf's Up? Or 'He Come Down' on CATP? I think the albums as i've suggested are pretty much perfect really.. 'Deirde' is pretty mediorce, so why leave it on just coz there's room? Bung 'San Miguel' on top instead, and you've got yourself one hell of a Sunflower a-side!!

(Oh, and sorry, but Dennis was so much the best songwriter at this time!! Brian and Carl had there moments (and what moments..!!) but Denny was consistent and inventive. Songs like 'Lady' and 'Baby Blue' are masterpieces and it's a crime that they aren't better known..)

Yep.


Nope.

Ok, well if not dennis than who? Brian's contributions from this point onwards, with the odd exception of songs such as Til I Die and Funky Pretty, were either updates of earlier work (Surf's Up, Sail On Sailor) or originals that borrowed heavily from previous songs (i.e. Marcella, which re-uses the melody of 1965's 'Dressed Up For School'). Carl wrote some amazing tunes (Feel Flows, Trader) but was hardly profilic, averaging one or two great tracks a year (later his mediorce solo albums would demonstrate all too clearly that Carl was an exceptional singer and producer first, and a songwriter second). Dennis meanwhile was churning out one great tune after another, whether cracking rock songs like 'I'm Going Your Way', gorgeous ballards such as 'Cuddle Up', moving protest songs like '4th Of July' and 'Carry Me Home', or experimental pieces such as 'Lady' (who else was using drum machines back then..?). Brian and Carl were both stellar talents, and Brian was certainly the most gifted member of the group for most of the Sixties, but towards the end of the decade (from 'Friends' onwards) Dennis overtook his older borther and stayed ahead of him until his untimely death (for a perfect example of this, listen to 'Pacific Ocean Blue', Dennis' 1977 solo masterpiece, then give Brian's effort of the same year a spin, 'Love You').

Unless of course you were seriously going to suggest that a non-Wilson member of the group was the greatest songwriter of the time? But I very much hope not....
 

Which part of "All Dressed Up For School" was recycled into "Marcella"?

Brian, for one--Till I Die.

And yes, I think Brian was the best songwriter, even in the late 60s and early 70s. No disrespect to Dennis, but Brian's output from the period ranks far above for me.

As for the recycled melody idea, if you'd said he recycled All Dressed Up For School into I Just Got My Pay, I'd have no comment--it's true. But to imply that it's the same one as Marcella is wrong (whether it's written in liner notes or not). Just because a note goes from I down to IV doesn't doesn't make it the same melody. The chord progression isn't even the same after that one similarity. You can find a similarity in those two notes, if you want...but if that's all it takes, there are going to be thousands of songs that recycle melodies. Vague or momentary similarity does not mean recycling.

And anyway, wasn't ADUFS unreleased? If so, who cares? Why shouldn't a writer recycle from material that was never released, if s/he wants to? I doubt Brian knew people would be scouring his vaults 40 years later to critique such things.

Ok, point kinda taken re Marcella, though they certainly sound similar to me.. But, aside from Til I Die, can someone please name me ANY Brian track written AFTER 1970 that is better than tracks such as 'River Song', 'Baby Blue', 'Moonshine', or 'Carry Me home'? Seriously, a genuinely better track - not a 'i like it coz it's kinda dorky' track ala 'Solar System'. Dennis was so obviously producing superior material i find it surprising anyone is disagreeing.. I'd expected a loada agreements haha!

'Fraid it's impossible to convince you (and I have no interest in trying) because there is no way to define "genuinely better track." For example, I DO like Solar System more than almost everything Dennis ever did--and Johnny Carson, and plenty of the other silly songs off of Love You. Does silliness mean lack of quality? I'd say no. I also prefer Funky Pretty, the fairy tale music, It's Over Now, Lines, Baseball, Still I Dream of It, and plenty of other Brian songs from post-70 over pretty much everything by Dennis. It doesn't matter--I just do. Just like it doesn't matter you prefer Dennis' -- you just do. But trying to justify them as objectively "better" just because you prefer them, and without some criteria by which to measure and prove your point, might not be the best use of time.

Good point. It's all subjective i suppoose. I love the Beach Boys and Brian's music, but stuff like It's trying To Say (Baseball) and It's Over Now i personally don't rate.. By this point Brian was pretty ill and i think it reflects in the songs, and not in a particularly good way. He was far, far from his best, while Denny was at the top of his game. I think 'Moonshine' might well be my favourite track by a BB ever in fact.. Either that or 'Take a Load off Your Feet'. (Just joking...)

I would say Brian's stuff through 73-74 is equal to Dennis' work. Dennis DID automatically become the only Beach Boy to match Brian's songs in 1968 but Brian was still on a roll even if the songs after 70 came in lesser quantity.  However from 15 Big Ones on Dennis was WAY WAY above Brian in that period. Brian did some decent songs then but Dennis hadn't gone downhill as a songwriter at all. Though it could be argued that Dennis' voice impaired his late 70's recordings as well, his darker more mature themes suited that sound better then say Solar System. I do think Still I Dream Of It is a classic though. Of course this is all subjective.

It is up for debate who's songs were better of Dennis and Brian post 1968. However, the more reliable and consistant of the two was definately Dennis. Of course somebody might say that Brian still had more credits then Dennis in that time, but there is a reason for that. Probably 90% of the songs Brian did were released compared to 40% of Dennis songs. Of course I'm making those numbers up, but you get the point.

Do most people think like you? I would hope not. Those songs you mentioned were written (besides Bluebirds..) and performed by the Beach Boys, my favorite band ever. Why would I ever want to get rid of songs by my favorite band? They're good!

The Beach Boys are by far my favourite band of all time, and I rate them as better than The Beatles, but not everything they did was great. 'Take A Load..' was a B-side, 'Tears In The Morning' is too cheesy, 'He Come Down' is a mess etc. These are just my opinions, but they're jolly good ones. Even if you like these tracks, their were better ones remaining unreleased and i think they shoulda replaced 'em for sure, for the sake of the albums, and their image (what is gonna resonate more if an audience in the '70's, a song like '4th of July' about Vietnam, or a song about a guy called Pete taking care of his feet?).
I didn't think anyone liked 'Feet..' except Al Jardine haha!! The aforementioned Beatles were great, but that doesn't change the fact that 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' sucks ass!

I liked it. But really, I liked everything the BB did 1966-1976. I agree about Bruce's songs. I like them, but IMHO he was (and is) the weakest member of the group.


I agree 100%.

I think what makes Bruce's songs work in the context of Sunflower and Surf's Up are what Brian added to them harmonically. His falsetto lines were excellent and they also had a flow with the rest of the material. Were there better songs in the vaults? Yes but I think that at least on Sunflower the flow as an LP is perfect.

Good point, Mike. I think too if you take what everyone's said about Going Pubic, you can see what Bruce can do by himself, without Brian or anybody else helping reign in his suckiness.

Or so I hear. I've never heard it.

Going 'Pubic'? Not THAT'S a typo!! I don't agree about TITM flowing with the rest of the material on Sunflower, I think it really jars.. Deirdre fits well, but 'Tears' seems out of place to me.

It's a joke

Freudian slip!:lol

I knew it !! Welcome back, Bobby California !!!


... which isn't about Vietnam but the New York Times - according to Jack Rieley.

On Sunflower, I'd drop "Tears in the Morning" and replace it with "San Miguel."

On Surf's Up, I'd drop "Student Demonstration Time" and "Lookin' at Tomorrow" and replace them with "H.E.L.P. is on the Way" and "I Just Got My Pay."

I'd still ike to go for the Sunflower sprawling double LP, it could easily be done, it could have about 30 songs, it would be like the BB equivalent of the White Album, off the top of my head you could add

San Miguel
Soulful old man sunshine
I just got my Pay
When girls get together
Good time
Games two can play
Big Sur
Suzie Cincinatti
Sound of Free
Lady
Take a load of your feet
Loop de loop

Thats 12 songs already, i'm sure i've missed out a few. The others could be made up of more late 60s stuff - Breakaway, Cottonfields, We're together again, Walkin, over the waves etc. and/or wait a few extra months til the end of 1970 and get on stuff like My solution, Seasons in the sun, HELP is on its way etc..

I'm not sure of the value of removing tracks from this 69-73 period, but there's still plenty of room to add two or three to make these albums even better.

Later on, it becomes more problematical, although call me masochistic if you like, but I'd be happy with an all-oldies 15 Big Ones.

MIU is easy: don't release it, but save My Diane and Pitter Patter for LA, adding Santa Ana Winds, Lookin' Down the Coast and California Feelin', while dropping HCTN, Lady Lynda, Goin' South and Sumhama.

Ok, it might not be about Vietnam then, but it stick packs somewhat more relevance than an over-produced ditty about foot care no?

I think Dennis had a penchant for over-producing, too, so I wouldn't use that particular criticism when trying to trade in his work for (in this case) Al's.

Admittedly "Feet" (which I quite like) is overly gimmicky in its production--something I think Al did far too much of throughout his production credits--but the song itself is nice in a harmless way. And 4th of July, like much of Dennis' stuff, is just too melodramatic for my taste.

Who was the genius who put Cool Cool Water on the A side of the single and Forever on the B-side and expected to get radio play?

Actually, I do wonder--who was it? Was that a label decision or the band's? I have read of course that L. Waronker loved CCW, so was it his?

I couldn't disagree more re Dennis' songs being either too melodramatic or over-produced.  His productions were often surprisingly sparse i.e. Lady and, yes, 4th of July. But then if everyone felt the same there wouldn't be much point in sites like this...

I think if you look to his C&TP tracks, you'll see what I mean. They sound the way marshmallows taste.

No way, I hate marshmallow and I love those tracks. I think they get the balance just right. What about the middle of 'Cuddle Up' when the whole thing dies down and there's just a lone piano, a few strings and the BBs 'oooohing' - absolutely beautiful! They're about the only tracks on CATP which are produced well in fact.. 'Need a Mess..' and 'All This is That' could've been even better had they been more carefully produced.

what's wierd about so tough is that we never hear the beach boys sound like that again. It's a totally new sound from dennis (what could have been his first solo album)...Mess of Help, Marcella, All this; is sooo fresh and new...I feel like when they went to holland, it was back to the Surf's Up era of producing...not that that's a bad thing

That's true So Tough is really different from what came before and after. I think most of it works well. The song Brian wrote with Rieley are two of my favorites.

In a way that's true with tracks like 'Steam Boat' and 'California Sega'. But I think that songs like 'Sail On Sailor', 'Leaving this Town', 'Trader' and 'Funky Pretty' are a step beyond So Tough.