The Smiley Smile Message Board

Doesn't the song have to be released first?

It has.

I don't consider a covered version of an unreleased song to be an official release. But I guess the grammy is for composition and not recording.

I wasn't aware that amazon.com had a policy of selling bootlegs or pirated recordings. I guess you feel the same way about Manfred Mann's "The Mighty Quinn"... or Brian's version of "Soul Searchin'".

Not following...

Manfred Mann's hit version of "Quinn" was taken from the then-unreleased basement tapes. Brian's version of "SS" is a cover of the unreleased original.

Did Solomon Burke's version of SS come out before Brian's?

Al *is* a full voting and nominating member of the Academy, so he would know if the song is eligible or not.  He believes it is...and you'll have to come along to the convention to hear the whole story!
:-)

Seems totally black & white to me. Song's been released. Dennis & Stan wrote it. End of.

Sure it is. The Chaos Band's version constitutes an official release of the song, as far as I'm concerned.

Agree to disagree.

OK, so explain to me why Adam's cover of an unreleased song released on a legitimate CD is 'unofficial', or for that matter why Manfred Mann's cover of the equally-then-unreleased "Mighty Quinn" on an equally legitimate 45 is also, according to your Olympian pronouncement, 'unofficial ?

You talking nonsense, and you know it.

No, because in my opinion to release an official recording of a song, you'd release the original that was played and sung by the original members/artist/writer. Yes, the cover version is an official release, in terms that its not a bootleg but a "legitimate" record label release. But its not the official release of the actual song which Dennis had nothing to do with it. Remember this is my opinion.

Therefore, I don't see how Dennis Wilson can win a Grammy for a RECORDING because its not his, its someone else. Thats why in my initial post I pointed out that I guess it doesn't matter what I'm saying because they want to nominate him for COMPOSITION and not RECORDING.

So to go over what I just said...yes the Chaos Band's cover is a legitimate release, however I don't think its an official release that should be considered for a Grammy. If Dennis Wilson's estate wants to win a grammy, they should release the actual recording.

I would say the same thing if Brian had nothing to do with BWPS, but because he's around to work on it, and it's his voice on there, I consider it an official release. If the Wondermints would've played the whole thing with no Brian participation, it would just be a cover album to me.

If the Chaos Band release of that song wasn't official, then why did I go to the trouble of getting permission and paying a mechanical royalty to the publisher?

Hmmm.... silly me.    ;)

AB

Congratulations on not only talking yourself into a corner, but also doing it in fluent drivel. The post that started all this stated quite clearly that the hoped-for grammy nomination would be for Dennis as a composer.

What about all the classical Grammys - no way any of those can be, in your ludicrous definition, 'official' recordings as Beethoven/Mozart/Elgar/[insert your classical composer of choice here] patently had nothing to do with them.

Your ability to demonstarate that black is indeed white, coupled with a total lack of commonsense would seem to indicate a career in politics.

And yes, I've never been able to pass up the chance of shooting a fish in a barrel. Especially one that hands me the shells.

This was my second post in the thread, you just wanted to show your pretentious smug self again by starting a ridiculous argument of "black and white" as if everything is said here is fact even though I've indicated that its all in MY OWN OPINION which you obviously cannot comprehend. Don't you have scripture to read?

Joe, with all due respect, by your logic, Bruce Johnston  should not have won his Grammy for I Write The Songs because Barry's hit version predated Bruce's own version.

Nope - not my bag. Anyway, I'm too ignorant to comprehend it - you say so, thus it must be true.  ::)

Although you're correct, I think we're talking about two different things. Bruce Johnston did win the composition Grammy for the song that he wrote for someone else. My original post was a mistake on my part thinking the Grammy was going for a recording of the song. I then clarified myself when I wrote that it's different of what I was thinking because they want to nominate him for composition. I stated this twice already.

AGD started going off tangent talking about how the Chaos version is official because it was legitimately released. And I agree, that it is a legitimate release, however to ME (Joe), I would give the title OFFICIAL recording to the one Dennis did however long ago.

So when I said, how can you give an award to an unreleased song, I was specifically talking about Dennis' version...because since that recording exists, to me, its the official one, and you can release as many covers as you want, but none of them are going to be the official one. I feel like I'm saying official a lot.

Yes, Dennis can win composition Grammy for the Chaos' cover of the song, but lets be honest, thats somewhat of a flake. Release the freakin song already and let him get nominated for his recording, the version he put his heart and soul into. Not to discredit the Chaos' effort...just sayin.

And in the end, as I've stated over and over and over and over again...this is all my opinion.

Yeah, sorry about going off tangent Susan...I can move these posts to another thread if you wish. Just PM me and let me know.

Can't we all just get along?
:lol

We should have a 3 page thread on why they are so special  :-D

'Course not. This is a Beach Boys forum, dammit !  8)

Sigh.... :hat

 ;D

:lol

But yes - back to Suze's convention.

Since they can't get along, we're not going to either!!!!

A tribute to the Beach Boys in the clearest way -- we act like them.

LOL

Phew, it's time for me to meditate.

Nah, time for someone to mediate.

Joe, don't worry about me.  I don't have any problem with derailing.  Besides - the thread IS ABOUT the Grammy nomination.  Nobody got off topic.

It's going to be very interesting to hear Al talk about the nomination process; i think we will all walk away more knowledgeable.

Those of us who are there to hear it, anyway...
;-)

AND if I had some porn, it'd be time to...


:lol

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Yes.

The "debate" over the definition of "official" has been officially amusing to read.  I get both side's points.  And Dennis won't posthumously win the Grammy.  But it's a nice notion to consider.

I think you are entitled to your opinion but this just doesn't make sense.  Following this logic  a  great many, perhaps the majority, of all the hits in the history of rock and roll would not be "official releases".  Many, and perhaps the majority, of all rock hits were not recorded and released by the writer of the song. 
Concerning Grammys  it should be pointed out that one of the 'Big 4' Grammy awards is "Song of the Year".  The Song of the Year is awarded to the COMPOSER (not the performer) of the song.  As AGD, I think, stated Bruce Johnston was so honored in 1977 for the Barry Manilow hit that he (Bruce) had not released.  Many others such as Jimmy Webb, Stephen Sondheim, Paul Williams, Burt Bacharach, Jackie DeShannon & Donna Weiss have been so honored in similar circumstance.   Most of Elvis Presley's hits were songs written by someone who had not released the song themselves.   
If Dennis were to be nominated for his song writing, it would be a great honor and recognition, particularly at this late date. 


You probably don't mean to (I hope not at least) but your comments can be construed as a statement  about  the Chaos Band.  That probably is what Alan is responding to.  Let me point out that these musicians are fine and dedicated professionals that have labored, from their hearts, to honor both Dennis and Carl.  Their release is just as official as Brittney Spears's or anybody else's no matter who did the writing.  Dennis would be absolutely thrilled with these guys. So would Carl.                 

Oh brother!

Those songs written by Webb, Sondheim, Williams, Bacharach, and Johnston. Were they recorded previously by themselves to be released on a later date? I would assume not. I would assume, they wrote the songs as composers and gave them off to producers to work with an artist so that they can record it and put it out. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

However, with Dennis' composition, he actually recorded it with the intentions of putting it out sometime. THAT recording that exists in the glorious vaults of the Beach Boys, is THE official recording of THAT song. I don't see how anyone fails to see my logic behind that...and ofcourse to make it safe I say its my opinion. Therefore, any other version that comes out after that, imo, is just another cover version of a recording that already exists.

Of course, if Dennis had the whole song down on paper (with nothing on tape) and the Chaos version recorded it from there, then I would consider their recording the official recording of the song, because no previous recording exists. Especially if Dennis gave the OK for it to happen.

I can't be any clearer than that...

Was it acceptable for the 2004 "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" to receive a Grammy, or because it was a re-recorded--"covered" version of an unreleased recording, should it not have been considered?

Brian Wilson in 1966/7, Brian Wilson in 2004/5

Disregarding his state of mind, ofcourse. :3d

So, the Chaos Band version is NOT the "official" RECORDING of the song.

But, could it/should it be considered the "official" RELEASED RECORDING of the song, therefore qualifying it/Dennis for a Grammy in a songwriting capacity?


(runs back to the hole and leaps in)

Fair enough.

My own $.02 on the issue is really that I don't see the problem, as the award is for Dennis as a composer, not a performer. I can see why it might be disappointing for it to happen that way, but not in any way wrong or against any kind of eligibility rules, or less official.

After proposing it for Surf's Up, did Dennis ever try to release it again? If he liked it half as much as many people here seem to (I have never heard it), why didn't he put it out on POB, if nowhere else?

Luther, I completely agree with you on that regard. If you read my second post on this thread (first page) you will see that I said it was ok that he's nominated for composition as I misread Susan's post originally. The discussion turned into AGD telling me that the Chaos version is the OFFICIAL version of the song because it was released.

Gotcha. I had read the thread, but over a span of days. I must have missed that part you mentioned.

As for whether it is the official recording...I would personally say that depends on what a person means by "official." It is certainly AN official recording, in that it was thoroughly legal and appropriate and formally released. THE official? From a legal perspective, if it is the only released version then I guess it is the only official version. But to again go back to Smile, many people still consider those--some still unreleased--recordings the "official" ones, too. I guess unreleased recordings may seem more official to the hearts of fans.

But I am not sure I could agree that they can be considered official over legitimately released ones. Just an opinion, and one in which I see both sides.

I guess Elvis released a whole catalogue of "unofficial" songs like Hound Dog, Jailhouse Rock, etc...  ::)

 ;D

Someone can't differentiate between 'original' and 'official'. And it isn't me.

"I don't consider a covered version of an unreleased song to be an official release."

You statement is very clear - in your opinion the Chaos band version isn't a legitimate release. Any release, of any song, that follows the proper licensing, publishing and copyright proceedures is official. I suggest you try to be a little more precise with your use of the English language in the future.

Oh piss off. I suggest you work on your reading comprehension and pretentious attitude.

I see the art of witty repartee is alive and well. Oscar would be proud.  ;)

Calm down, kids. ;D

The point behind this sterile fight is that WIBNTLA should be released in its original version.  :P

No arguement there - it's a magnificent track. Until the original (but not 'official') version is released, Adam Marsland's Chaos Band's rendition is an outstanding substitute. The album is called Long Promised Road - buy it. Not just for "(WIBNT)LA", though - the whole set is a joy. However, personally I thought it could use...

... MORE COWBELL !!!

(http://seoblog.intrapromote.com/more_cowbell.jpg)
:lol

Drop the keyboard, That should be Brian's new instrument...  :lol

Hells Yeah! Even funnier would be if somebody photoshopped the head of 1976 Brian from, say, his Mike Douglas appearance on Will Ferrell's body in that pic I posted...

Would that then be an official release?

Bwahahahaahahahaaha! :lol