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Title: Lyrics Post by: mikeyj on April 23, 2007, 12:55:08 AM A lot of the time I always think to myself "hmm I wonder who wrote what lyrics in what songs etc.." because I think that Brian wrote atleast some of the lyrics in songs that are credited to him and Mike or whatever. I think Mike is really good at creating catchy little lines in songs. Eg: "Im pickin up good vibrations, shes givin me the excitations", "Aruba, jamaica ooh I wanna take ya etc.." but a lot of his other contributions seem to be either really great or really bad. So surely a man who can write the lyrics to a song like Please Let Me Wonder cant come up with such crap as Summer of Love (I mean that is like the polar opposite). And even songs like Cool Cool Water look at the lyrics...they are pretty dopey in places (eg:
"In a shady spot when I'm layin' down Only thing movin' are the ants on the ground" I mean to me those are pretty crappy lyrics. Whether they were by Mike or not is up for debate, but surely Mike didnt come up with every lyric on songs that he was credited too (as it seems to me that people just assume when they see the songwriting credit "Brian Wilson/Mike Love" they just assume that Brian wrote all the music and Mike wrote all the lyrics. So I was wondering besides the obvious ones about how Mike came up with "im pickin up good vibrations" etc.. is there any others where it is firmly established who wrote what lyrics? P.S: In regards to Good Vibrations did Mike write all the lyrics to that one. From memory in interviews Mike has said "Brian had the rest of it all such as the 'Good, good, good, good vibrations" bit but then he states that he of course wrote "im pickin up.. etc.." so doesnt that mean that Brian wrote atleast SOME of Good Vibrations (albeit very little and not very creative but still some of the lyrics?) Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 23, 2007, 01:16:32 AM As regards "GV", I think it's generally accepted that Brian did the music and Tony Asher, and later Mike, did the lyrics.
As for other songs, a long time ago Brad Elliott posted the exact percentages of who did what post-"GV" for a few tracks. The figures escape me after all this time but it sure wasn't a 50/50 split. BTW, Brian is also capeable of inane lyrics. "My friend Bob/He has a job" ? Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on April 23, 2007, 01:24:17 AM Big Sur has nice lyrics, so does Sound Of Free, Pacific Ocean Blue, and everything he wrote for side two of Today. He went way downhill in the late 70s but in my opinion they all did except (musically) for Dennis.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: mikeyj on April 23, 2007, 01:39:27 AM Andrew I always get conflicting views on "GV". Am I right in saying that none of Tony Asher's lyrics ended up on the final version? I think I actually have those percentages of the songs somewhere but I wasn't sure if they were right. Cant seem to find them at the moment. In regards to "My friend bob, he has a job"... yeh that is pretty lame and Im not saying that Brian is a brilliant lyricist... Im just saying that surely he wrote SOME lyrics on Brian/Mike collaborations.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: mikeyj on April 23, 2007, 02:21:32 AM By the way, has Mike said why he didn't do something earlier about him not getting credit on various songs (eg: California Girls etc..)
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 23, 2007, 04:08:08 AM Andrew I always get conflicting views on "GV". Am I right in saying that none of Tony Asher's lyrics ended up on the final version? I think I actually have those percentages of the songs somewhere but I wasn't sure if they were right. Cant seem to find them at the moment. In regards to "My friend bob, he has a job"... yeh that is pretty lame and Im not saying that Brian is a brilliant lyricist... Im just saying that surely he wrote SOME lyrics on Brian/Mike collaborations. Going on the early versions, Tony came up with the "Good good good good vibrations" hook... and of course, the majority of his verse lyrics were used for the BWPS version, although the general feeling is that this wasn't entirely an artistic decision. ::) Brian has written some excellent lyrics ("'Til I Die" if nothing else), but he's also released some dross. Like any given lyricist. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 23, 2007, 04:10:35 AM By the way, has Mike said why he didn't do something earlier about him not getting credit on various songs (eg: California Girls etc..) Yeah - apparently he was intimidated by Murry, and that Brian kept promising it'd be seen to. the timing of his claim had no connection with Brian being awarded millions in his case against Irving/Almo... Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: mikeyj on April 23, 2007, 04:22:23 AM Yeah - apparently he was intimidated by Murry, and that Brian kept promising it'd be seen to. the timing of his claim had no connection with Brian being awarded millions in his case against Irving/Almo... Thanks Andrew. I always wondered about that. Going on the early versions, Tony came up with the "Good good good good vibrations" hook... and of course, the majority of his verse lyrics were used for the BWPS version, although the general feeling is that this wasn't entirely an artistic decision. ::) Brian has written some excellent lyrics ("'Til I Die" if nothing else), but he's also released some dross. Like any given lyricist. Thanks Andrew. I know Tony has no credit on Good Vibrations (BB version) but I just wasnt sure if he just wasnt given credit for something he wrote or whatever. I remember reading an interview with Tony where he stated that Mike Love came up with "Good night my baby, sleep tight my baby" in WIBN and thats why he got credit on that one but I couldve sworn that Tony said something in the vein of "if Mike got credit for WIBN, I should get credit for GV". I agree with you on Til I Die. Absoultely brilliant lyrics that sum up the feeling of the song perfectly. I also think though that Brian did come up with some nice (not brilliant or anything) lyrics such as Surfer Girl (nothing wrong with those lyrics) and Im sure theres more but I just cant think off the top of my head. To be honest though Ive always believed (and a lot of people ive talked to dont agree with me) that the delivery of the lyrics (ie: the way its sung) is always more important than the lyrics themselves. Im not saying that lyrics arent important (I mean if you come up with REALLY REALLY bad lyrics (eg: Summer of Love) then it doesnt matter how its sung its still gonna make you wanna be sick but generally lyrics arent as important, just as long as there not crap. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Dancing Bear on April 25, 2007, 05:58:48 AM I recently downloaded "Disco Celebration", the third release by Mike's group that was in the shelves for 10 minutes in 1979 and vanished when its label closed. In what looked like the backcover of the original vinyl record, there it is: "California Girls - by Brian Wilson and Mike Love".
Wasn't Mike only given credit for California Girls in the 90s? Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: mikeyj on April 25, 2007, 06:07:03 AM I recently downloaded "Disco Celebration", the third release by Mike's group that was in the shelves for 10 minutes in 1979 and vanished when its label closed. In what looked like the backcover of the original vinyl record, there it is: "California Girls - by Brian Wilson and Mike Love". Wasn't Mike only given credit for California Girls in the 90s? Dancing Bear what is this release, I've never heard of it before? And that is pretty strange I thought that Mike also was only given credit for California Girls in the 90's too, along with several other songs. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Dancing Bear on April 25, 2007, 07:06:41 AM Quote from: Brad Elliott, 1999, in usenet There actually are THREE Celebration albums! There was a follow-up to the Pacific Arts album that was done in connection with a label deal Mike set up with some German investors. The record was actually recorded and pressed, but only a handful of copies got out before the whole deal went south. However, for the diehard Celebration completists like yourself, here's the information: DISCO CELEBRATION ADC Records LS 4052 Copyright 1979 AMREC Enterprises Produced by Ron Altbach for LoveSongs Productions, Inc. Side One 1. Disco Symphony (Love-Altbach) 8:00 2. You Can Count on Love (Love-Altbach) 8:34 Side Two 1. California Girls (Wilson-Love) 4:38 2. Party Girl (Love-Altbach) 5:03 3. First Love (Fauerso) 4:10 The basic group on this album is Kevin Brandon (bass), Jerry Donahue (guitar), Kin Calkins (drums) and Paul Fauerso (keyboards). Suzanne Wallach sings lead on "Disco Symphony" and "Party Girl." Fauerso sings lead on "You Can Count on Love" and "First Love." "California Girls" is essentially an instrumental, by a completely different band: Charles Lloyd (sax), Ed Carter (guitar), Wells Kelly (bass) and Mike Kowalksi (drums). There's a bunch of keyboards and synthesizers on the track, too; my guess is they probably were played by Ron Altbach. And where's the Lovester? Well, there's a section in the middle of "California Girls" where there's a bunch of backing vocal-type singing (oohs and aahs) and the Lovester can clearly be heard among the singers. Other than that, he's not heard anywhere on the album! And you think the first two Celebration albums were bad? This one is so Gawd-awful retchingly terrible that it makes the Pacific Arts album seem like PET SOUNDS! Lest you think I'm making all this up, I have a copy in my collection. I'm not proud of it, but I really do. Surf's up? Brad That's basically it. Someone who owns that piece of rare vinyl could tell us how CG was credited on it. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on April 25, 2007, 07:28:35 PM It was credited to Brian and Mike, I found it on vinyl a few years back and Malc picked it up recently.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Dancing Bear on April 26, 2007, 05:05:10 AM I guess it was a bit like "Wings Over America" where McCartney credited the Beatle songs to "McCartney - Lennon".
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Aegir on April 27, 2007, 10:50:15 AM I guess it was a bit like "Wings Over America" where McCartney credited the Beatle songs to "McCartney - Lennon". I don't see the connection there. California Girls is credited as "Wilson-Love", not the other way around. Though seeing it credited as "Mike Love/Brian Wilson" would've been pretty funny. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on April 27, 2007, 10:59:37 PM On every release except Disco Celebration pre 1994 it was only credited to Brian. Mike wrote about 40 songs that Murry erased his name from.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 28, 2007, 02:41:15 AM On every release except Disco Celebration pre 1994 it was only credited to Brian. Mike wrote about 40 songs that Murry erased his name from. Allegedly. Tony Asher would disagree with you about one title. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on April 28, 2007, 04:15:29 AM Well I know Tony's beef but I buy that Mike came up with the bass vocal line and the closing lyric. Should that get him a third of the song? That's up for debate but I don't think it's horribly out of line. Mike had people like Leaf saying he was unimportant as a songwriter and that wasn't fair. Though I think every other lawsuit he has started is highly questionable, I think he deserved those credits and Brian has said the same publically.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 28, 2007, 05:18:55 AM Granted, Mike was done over royally on "California Girls"... but the bass vocal is an arrangement, not a lyric... and for supplying "Good night baby/Sleep tight baby" - five words - I don't think Mike is entitled to a third-share of the whole song.
As for the other 30-odd titles he won retroactive credits and royalties for, while I grant he may well have contributed to some, I'll carry on saying what I've said since the settlement: why did it take him some thirty-odd years to realise he'd been cheated (of course, the fact that Brian had just been awarded megabucks is purely coincidental)... why did the claim stop at 1966... and why are roughly half of the songs claimed either hits or compilation staples ? Consider: 409 [comp staple] Chug-A-Lug Farmer's Daughter Noble Surfer Finders Keepers Catch A Wave [comp staple] Hawaii Be True To Your School [hit/comp staple] I Get Around [hit/comp staple] All Summer Long [comp staple] Wendy [hit/comp staple] Do You Remember ? Drive-In Don't Back Down Little Honda [hit/comp staple] Little St. Nick [hit/comp staple] The Man With All The Toys [hit/comp staple] Santa's Beard Merry Christmas, Baby Good To My Baby [comp staple] Don't Hurt My Little Sister When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) [hit/comp staple] Help Me, R(h)onda [hit/comp staple] Dance, Dance, Dance [hit/comp staple] Kiss Me, Baby She Knows Me Too Well In The Back Of My Mind The Girl From New York City Amusement Parks USA Salt Lake City California Girls [hit/comp staple] Let Him Run Wild [comp staple] You're So Good To Me [comp staple] Wouldn't It Be Nice [hit/comp staple] I Know There's An Answer Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Rocker on April 28, 2007, 06:09:07 AM He also, to this day, claims to have written the words for "Surfin USA"
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 28, 2007, 06:43:36 AM But oddly, that wasn't in the suit filed (two words: Jimmy Bowlles). Also, in various interviews of the time he kicked up a fuss about "Good Vibrations". Um, Mike - check out the label.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Sheriff John Stone on April 28, 2007, 07:08:00 AM Does the questioning of Mike Love's claims have to do more with his personality (egotistical?) and his motives (money?), instead of what we are actually hearing in the songs? Most, if not all of the songs that Mike is claiming authorship on SOUND like the words could've been written by him. Conversely, I wonder if Brian had the lyrical skills to compose them (listen to Love You and some of his solo demos).
Why do we rarely question other collaborators' lyrical contributions to Brian's songs? I view the fact that Mike waited 30 years to file his claim more to his credit than his determent. If it was for the money (royalties) or credit (for his reputation), he could've pursued this issue a long time ago. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 28, 2007, 07:15:42 AM Conversely, I wonder if Brian had the lyrical skills to compose them (listen to Love You and some of his solo demos). "'Til I Die" isn't too lyrically shabby. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Dancing Bear on April 28, 2007, 01:45:02 PM Maybe Mike thought for decades that suing Brian - if only for California Girls - would distance Brian from him (and the Beach Boys) even more. After Brian's solo album and Kokomo maybe it wasn't such a big concern anymore.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on April 30, 2007, 05:39:39 AM Andrew to answer your questions my thought are these. Why it took until 1992, I think he said he trusted Brian would to do right by him once he won his settlement, but when he didn't he sued. Why none after 1966, perhaps Murry held less sway by 1967. Alternatively with Pet Sounds and the aborted Smile not including much by him ,he was more conscious of getting his share. Why hits? Because if Mike was Brian's primary pre 1966 song partner it happened to when they had a boat load of hits. It's not like they are all hits. I do understand your point about WIBN but as Mike said Carl only wrote the guitar solo for Dance, Dance, Dance and got half. He also didn't say that he didn't get credit for Good Vibes, he said that he was a hook man so would come up with "Round, Round Get Around" or "I'm Picking Up Good Vibrations" etc. I want to stress again that any later Mike Love suits are merda, but with Brian, Bruce, Carl, and even Al and Dennis (of course years before) speaking of Mike as the groups main lyric man I believe him here. Surfin U.S.A. I am not sure on but again he could have done a few lines about the sandals etc because in DAG #4 he is interviewed on Surfing films speaking of the different clothes etc.
P.S I do think Brian could be a good lyricist but a very distinct one as well. Some of the stuff Mike did were either too gimmicky or too wordy to seem like Brian's own words. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: pixletwin on April 30, 2007, 11:45:49 AM Hell, if Mike can claim co-ownership of a song based on a few lines of contribution, Ringo could see Lennon/McCartney for a bunch of songs. :lol
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on April 30, 2007, 05:59:22 PM Paul's given Ringo a ton of money over the years particularly during his cocaine and alcohol phase.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on May 01, 2007, 12:59:37 AM Never knew Macca was a cokehead. ::)
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: endofposts on May 01, 2007, 01:35:11 AM Never knew Macca was a cokehead. ::) Didn't he mean he gave Ringo a ton of money during Ringo's coke phase? Ringo was notorious for the nose candy, and both he and Barbara Bach have been through rehab. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on May 01, 2007, 03:59:36 AM I meant Ringo. Paul has said he did cocaine in 67-8 or so but basically stopped around 69.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: matt-zeus on May 01, 2007, 04:29:07 AM I thought Macca was back on the coke around the mid 70s? Some of the filler on those albums sure sounds like it!
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: CosmicDancer on May 01, 2007, 05:11:01 AM If youve ever heard the tapes of the jam session with John, Paul, Stevie Wonder, and someone else whom I can't recall right now from John's "lost weekend" period, you'd know there was a bit of coke making the rounds. Doesn't mean Paul was using, but you can audibly hear John ask Stevie if he wants a "toot". Pretty terrible music being made but it's a fun thing to have for historical reasons.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: PMcC on May 01, 2007, 09:55:27 AM H. Nilsson was the somebody else. And you're right, the music is trash. All these great musicians, and they couldn't play 3 chords together and make it work. A shame, since that would be the only time that Lennon-McCartney were making music after the break-up (with tape rolling, anyway)
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: CosmicDancer on May 01, 2007, 10:46:54 AM I figured it was Nilsson being that he was John's main partner in crime during the lost weekend, but I wasn't quite sure. Thanks for clearing that up!
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: MBE on May 01, 2007, 02:53:39 PM I am sure Paul took an occasional snort in the 70's but I think it was only a regular thing in the late 60's. Those tapes ARE bad.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Guy on June 16, 2007, 05:51:57 AM After giving the new compilation "The warmth of the sun" a lot of spins lately I started wondering about the lyrics and specifically about who wrote them. Judging from the speculative discussing on this board in this thread and others I don't think there ever has been any proper documentation about Mike and Brian writing together. That is, apart from a couple of exceptions. In more than a couple of publications there is the story about Brian and Mike's collaboration on (the song) "The Warmth of the sun" around the time of JFK's assassination. Or how Mike wrote the hookline for "Good vibrations" in a cab on his way to th studio. For years now almost everything I've read about Mike's contributions or his lawsuit in 1992 (?) has been extremely skeptical. The example of the last two lines in "Wouldn't it be nice" that according to Mike were his contribution that earned him a songwriting credit has also been used a lot to discredit him.
I would like to know if there ever has been anything written about Brian and Mike's writing together, because I firmly believe that they did write together and that Mike's claim in the early '90's is, at least to a certain extent, true. In the book "Catch a wave" by Peter Ames Carlin he writes that Mike's lawsuit claim was for 72 songs. Earlier in this thread Andrew G. Doe lists 30 songs for which Mike gained credit. Does that mean he didn't for the others? What's the correct number? Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 16, 2007, 06:03:56 AM The number of BB tracks which now have Mike's name yet didn't prior to the lawsuit is either 34 or 35. Those were the songs submitted, and he got retrospective credit - and points - for all of them.
Interestingly, he's claimed to have had a hand in "Surfin' USA", but that wasn't used in the suit. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Guy on June 16, 2007, 06:28:42 AM Excellent, thanks.
Andrew, in that same list of songs you mention the coincidence that quite a lot of the 34 or 35 songs Mike claimed credit for were hits. Would you say that makes it more unconvincing that he actually contributed to them? Maybe his name was left off back in the day by Murry just because of that reason; meaning that Brian would get all of the earnings? Ah, here we are: Quote 409 [comp staple] Chug-A-Lug Farmer's Daughter Noble Surfer Finders Keepers Catch A Wave [comp staple] Hawaii Be True To Your School [hit/comp staple] I Get Around [hit/comp staple] All Summer Long [comp staple] Wendy [hit/comp staple] Do You Remember ? Drive-In Don't Back Down Little Honda [hit/comp staple] Little St. Nick [hit/comp staple] The Man With All The Toys [hit/comp staple] Santa's Beard Merry Christmas, Baby Good To My Baby [comp staple] Don't Hurt My Little Sister When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) [hit/comp staple] Help Me, R(h)onda [hit/comp staple] Dance, Dance, Dance [hit/comp staple] Kiss Me, Baby She Knows Me Too Well In The Back Of My Mind The Girl From New York City Amusement Parks USA Salt Lake City California Girls [hit/comp staple] Let Him Run Wild [comp staple] (See below) You're So Good To Me [comp staple] Wouldn't It Be Nice [hit/comp staple] I Know There's An Answer Doesn't the credit for "Let him run wild" read B.Wilson? In that case teh list would be 34 songs Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 16, 2007, 08:09:07 AM So Murry knew in advance which songs would be hits or future compilation staples ? ::)
The credit for "LHRW" on TWOTS reads "Brian Wilson-Mike Love". Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Bicyclerider on June 16, 2007, 09:35:09 AM If Mike wrote (or rewrote) the lyrics for I Know There's an Answer - why did Terry Sachen get his name on it? I mean, if you're going to give up song publishing money, why give it to T. Sachen and not the person who actually rewrote the lyrics? What was his contribution?
I've wondered about Dennis not getting credit for songwriting on the early surfing songs like Surfin' and Surfin' Safari - besides having the idea to write a song about surfing, he contributed surfing terminology/words and therefor lyrics to the songs - certainly as much a contribution as the two lines Mike added to Woudn't It Be Nice. And when asked who wrote Surfin' he says (on In the Beginning) "we all did." I'm not surprised Dennis wouldn't worry too much about whether or not he got credit, but shouldn't he have? Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Andrew G. Doe on June 16, 2007, 10:03:05 AM Do an A-B on "Ego" and "Answer" - the lyrical difference are minor compared with, say Asher's scratch "GV" lyric and Mike's final ones. Terry gets his rightful credit by writing the bulk of the 'final' lyric.
Why wasn't Jimmy Bowlles given his due credit for supplying the list of surfin' spots for "Surfin' USA" ? Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Cam Mott on June 16, 2007, 10:46:37 AM Mike has said he wasn't aware of his rights in regard to his credit on the songs until he testified for Brian in Wison v. Irving Music.
I'm not even sure about who Mike sued, there was a suit of Love v. Irving Music with Brian as one of 6 to 8 co-defendants, was there another suit only between Love and Wilson or was certain damages claimed against individual co-defendants? Irving held the then current publishing but Brian was the co-author and in collusion as the offending original co-publisher. Anyway, an eyewitness claims Mike didn't specify damages against Brian, the jury presumably decided what was due credit and how much damage Mike was due, but tried to settle with Brian [or someone] for a pittance. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Guy on June 18, 2007, 06:40:28 AM So Murry knew in advance which songs would be hits or future compilation staples ? ::) The credit for "LHRW" on TWOTS reads "Brian Wilson-Mike Love". No, he knew in advance which songs would become singles. Re: LHRW: I stand corrected. Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Amy B. on June 18, 2007, 09:24:22 AM The thing about some of these songs is that they sound like Brian's thoughts. I mean, "In the Back of My Mind?" It sounds like Brian's diary. Also PLMW and She Knows Me Too Well.
If Mike DID write those lyrics, could it have been with Brian's input, just as Brian had input into the concepts expressed in Tony Asher's Pet Sounds lyrics? Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: Magic Transistor Radio on June 18, 2007, 10:25:26 PM Even though I have never seen Surfin USA give any credit to Mike, I have always assumed that he had a big hand in the lyrics. It seems like something that he would right. That is assuming that he wrote all (most) of the lyrics to songs like Fun Fun Fun, I Get Around, California Girls, etc.
Title: Re: Lyrics Post by: bellagio on June 19, 2007, 09:04:53 AM I think Mike, like Asher, was good at understanding the feeling BW was trying to convey in a song. I doubt Mike wrote EVERY word, I'm sure Brian had suggestions, etc. (I wonder who wrote the original Lyric for PLMW). But Mike, like a lot of lyricists, seems to be the kind of writer who waits until the last second to finish his words, and maybe that's why some BB songs don't have names when BW is tracking them. But I beleive Mike wrote those songs he claims. There isn't anything so amazing that it would be unbeleivable.
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