The Smiley Smile Message Board

Reading the Peter Aims Carlin book, I really like it.  Up to this point (I'm in the 80's, Dennis has just passed away) it seems PAC is saying that Brian really just doesn't give a damn anymore (in addition to psychological/emotional issues).  It sounds as if he's had the life sucked out of him from those who want to use him to write more hits.  My question, for those who know or at least have an informed opinion: If Brian could find it in himself to care, could he write good songs?

It is a shame that the rest of the Beach Boys didn't follow his lead, and that he couldn't stay mentally healthy.  It is sad to sit and think about what could have been...

Very good question.  I think he might be able to do good work if he really felt motivated to do so.  But I think he probably feels like he has already done his work, and he doesn't have the itch to really push himself anymore.  He worked like a madman back in the day, and being older, he probably doesn't have anywhere near that amount of energy anymore.  Which is totally understandable, especially considering all that he's been through.  I really think Brian would be perfectly happy just sitting around all day and spending time with his family.  No touring or recording pressure, just living his life like any guy his age.

Then again, I still think that if Brian locked himself in a room with a bunch of synths, he could come up with a great album that would surprise us all.  Unfortunately though, he probably has no desire to do so (like many have suggested), and others around him might not be too keen on the idea either.

You are right though, it is a tragedy to think of all the great music lost to his mental illness and lack of support from the band.  Had Brian been able to keep it together during and after Smile, who knows what mindblowing music he would have come up with next.

Well, both originals on WIRWFC were good. Depends on how motivated he is...

Could he write a hit today? I doubt it. But could any artist at his age except say Willie Nelson and the country market.
Of interest to me is could he make some interesting music and I would say yes! At least to most of us here and in a non-commercial form.

I'll explain.

Take just about any Beach Boys or Brian Wilson album and you will find some fantastic snippets, chord-changes, harmony mixes etc. Brian has said he often hears music in his head. Not complete songs but segments that I imagine are incredible. These I think have often been ruined in the search of a hit or in the production by others.
Lets just imagine if he decided to put some of these snippets together, produce etc without the pressure of a album, tour or time. I watched a DVD the other day on "The Band" album and was amazed with some of the sounds Garth Hudson could come up with off the cuff. Prehaps Brian could do the same.

I think Brian's peak period was at a time when he was creating music out of an inner necessity and drive, doing it to please himself more than to "get a hit" - think Pet Sounds/Smile/Smiley/Friends/Love You.  I think those days are over - Brian is creating music to please others, not himself - at least I think that's what's uppermost in his mind.  He's not doing it out of creative necessity, the music isn't forcing it's way out of him, he's forcing it out.  That's not to say he doesn't try to make the music conform to his standards, but the more avant garde impulses of his music that make it unique and makes us fanatical fans is not really in him anymore. 

That said, with the right collaborator pushing him, and the support of Melinda and a more experimental record company, maybe the creative force that drove him in the 60's might return.  We know his mind still works differently than anyone else's, the problem is that for the past twenty years he's been trying to make his mind work more like everyone else's, for his own mental stability which is understandable.  He no longer wants to "scare a lot of people" with his music.

"He no longer wants to "scare a lot of people" with his music."

And such is the tragedy.  I'd absolutely love to see Brian back in that place, where he feels the need to make an album of "quirky" Brian songs in the vein of Smiley or Love You.  Unfortunately I don't think the confidence is there anymore to the point where he wants to "scare a lot of people" with his music, although I'd love to see that return as well.  Obviously nobody maintains such a God-like confidence for long, and it seems to have left Brian after Smile collapsed.  Brian was, in my opinion, at his peak when he could say "ok, I'm going to make this mindblowing album/single" and know darn well that he was capable of doing it.  I think that once he lost confidence in himself, he started to lose interest, and he's never recovered since.

No.

But neither can any of his contemporaries, so I think it's not a matter of wanting.

You're right.  Not many people can.  Cash's late flourishing, the perennial Dylan, Tony Bennett... Maybe Paul Simon, but if you look at his career, there aren't many original albums there. Maybe Steely Dan.  Maybe Neil Young, but only maybe. A lot of other people, including those who came after BW, are running on empty - Stevie Wonder, Van Morrison, Jackson Browne himself, Springsteen (for me, his last good album was Tunnel of Love, although I like odds and ends of the later stuff), Bowie, assorted former members of the Byrds.  I'd love to think he'll produce the goods for the RFH and remain optimistic, but realistically, he'd produced nothing outstanding since 88, only the odd good thing (I'm excepting BWPS here).

It depends on what he you want him to "do". Singing no he couldn't, writing perhaps not consistently, producing yes I think his recent productions are great. I personally don't think he has made a GREAT all round album since Spring. Smile is very good but not as good as it would have been before his voice changed. Yet I think he has continued in drips and drabs to release some very good music along with some that isn't worthy of his talent. For what he has been through I think what he does now is the best that can be expected, and better then I ever thought he would be before he resumed touring in 1999.

Hmm, on reflection, I may have come across as too harsh on BW.

Isn't there some debate on how involved with Spring production Brian was? 

Love that album!

I think that writers and artists and songwriters tend to have a shelf life. Once the inner drive to create is either satisfied or has been knocked down and rendered useless it's just gone. I think that there are some who can rely on craft at that point, but I think the inner need and intensity to create is the element X that makes those folks for a given period great. But you just can't maintain that degree of intensity forever.

The reason I feel this way is that I think that kind of drive tends to be borne out of things in the artist's life that don't fit together very well on a personal level and it creates a certain anxiety or energy in the artist's life to create as a remedy, either to help them make sense of the conflict or to nullify the negative effects of the conflict - but it's at a precarious balance. At some point the artist either works out the conflict or becomes more consumed by it. Either outcome dillutes the intensity they once felt for their art to be able to, on some level "save" them.

Just a theory, of course.

I think Brian just became overwhelmed by the conflict in his life, and the fire that initially drove him to create ended up consuming him for a number of years. This was obviously exacerbated by a number of his own behaviors, but I think that maybe those were partly an offshoot of the fact that the thing - creating music- that had originally acted as a balm on his soul started becoming a source of more conflict. When he was creative king of the Beach Boys he in essence had a degree of control in the family dynamic that wasn't there in the other arenas. In the beginning he was the big brother hero - but eventually that role betrayed him as well. His creativity had fostered a safe space in the dynamic, but as he pushed his creativity it ended up just creating another if not hostile, conflict-filled environment. That is at the heart of what I think castrated Brian's real creative spirit.

So I think that Brian is probably very proud of his best work, but is aware of the fact that "that" Brian doesn't really exist anymore - for better or worse. I'm sure there are artists that wish they could turn that kind of inspiration on and off, but I don't think it's controllable. Plus I just think that the more miles you log in life you just reach a point where you have to deal with your own merda head on and you come to the realization that songwriting isn't the emotional panacea you'd believed it to be.

Again, just a theory.

Dean

Take him away from his current influence (Melinda, Bennet, etc), take him to an ocean side house. Feed him two hits of acid and put a tape recorder in the room.

He'll find that special place.

I only heard the 88 BW album about a year ago and was stunned by the fact that in 88 Brian was capable of writing melodies (Melt Away, One For the Boys) that echo his finest work in the 60s. I'm no expert in his solo career and don't know how much evidence there is for great BW tunes post 88 (BWPS aside) but would think if he still has the ability for beautiful tunes in the late 80s, then why not now? I doubt he'll write a hit as he's not in touch with modern sensibilities as little of his contemporaries are, but I reckon he could still write an achingly beautiful melody if the circumstances were right - maybe I'm just blindly optimistic!

Depends on what you mean.

Get a hit? Almost certainly not, but that has virtually nothing to do with music and a lot to do with promotion. In other words, who gives a f***.

Write, perform and record some good music? Almost certainly--musical abilities don't go away, and BW has continued to show he can write melodies, chord changes, etc. They will seem anachronistic to anyone caught up in modern music because BW himself has said he isn't involved in the modern scene. Fans of oldies/classic rock (ie most of the people on boards like this, from what I gather) will be more inclined to like it (although they'll bicker about this version or that, and whether he used some verboten digital production methods...) than anyone else, but the quality of the songs themselves will be fine.

Sit down to write, perform and produce a consistently brilliant album? No. I believe he has neither the ability (due to natural aging and his obvious historical problems) nor desire to do that. And frankly, it isn't as if he down BY HIMSELF and did all those things consistently to begin with! Almost every Beach Boys album had its fair share of filler/misses to go along with the hits. So to expect consistent masterpieces just because you have done it before seems pretty unrealistic.

I think the most a realistic optimist could hope for would be either some cool singles now and again when the mood strikes him and maybe an album every few years--an album with a combination of new material and re-recordings of older, unreleased stuff. After all, that's what he's been doing anyway, and I don't think you can expect dramatic growth from a guy in his mid-60s.

By asking the question, "If he wanted to, could Brian do it again", you are assuming that he NO LONGER wants to do it again. Whenever Brian's more recent (post 1975) albums have not met expectations/past glories, people usually resort to those reasons - Brian doesn't care, Brian is disinterested, Brian doesn't want it anymore.

I believe that for every album that said "Produced By Brian Wilson", Brian cared, Brian wanted it. And that includes albums spanning from 15 Big Ones to What I Really Want For Christmas. And I also believe his "degree of wanting it" was pretty close to his early days of the 1960's. And that's what bothers me. I believe Brian did the best he could, and we got what we got. I believe the effort was there. I don't believe there was disinterest or a lack of effort or not wanting a hit.

Yes, in the 1960's Brian had his share of motivation - his dad, The Beatles, Phil Spector, and to some extent, money. But don't forget the most important thing that was motivating Brian to create his timeless music. He heard the music in his head. He has admitted in interviews to hearing the notes, the notes coming out of the sky, writing these great melodies in a matter of minutes. While producing the music was hard work, a lot of the music came easy to him. Call it a gift, call it genius, call it whatever.

For whatever reason - illegal drugs, prescription drugs, mental illness, you fill in the blank -Brian doesn't hear those notes anymore. At least that's what he has said. But I never heard him say that he didn't want it. Not that he would anyway... 


 

How many of us boomers can do anything as well now as what we did best in our early 20s to early 30s?

Not so many.

There are some things that we can probably do better now than then, but not the things that we were best at 40 years ago.

Add on the burden of chronic mental illness and long-time drug use and you have a recipe for it being unlikely, but not impossible, that he could regain the full glorious skills of the past.

Still I dream of it......

Well there is, but what he did do is classic Brian. He was also promoting it personally far more then the Beach Boys current music.

I guess what also makes people sad is how much Brian's personality changed. He seemed like such a fun loving prankster, and very commanding before Murry died.

In my opinion, his first solo album is every bit as good as Love You. The song Rio Grande is as creative and amazing as any non Smile thing he has done ever. I don't think that his other solo albums have been good, but a handful of the songs have been very nice songs such as Lay Down Burden, Happy Days, Rainbow Eyes and Desert Drive. There are also a few magical moments, such as the bridge to Sunshine and to Make a Wish.

True, but there are songs where we don't know how much of them really came from Brian.

In terms of songwriting and even backing vocals BW88 is a magnificent work to my ears, yet I think it lacks the joyous beauty and even the strange melancholy of the Love You record. Brian should really be encouraged to include as many humorous and quirky elements as he desires into his creative output.

No.

No, but he could probably do Do It Again again....

You know, threads like this really bother me, because they assume that because a person is mentally ill, that his illness impacts his whole life, thereby rendering him incapable of functioning. Brian is working on an extended composition as we speak, and I don't know whether I'll like it or whether I won't when he does it in London next September, but the fact that this sort of thread is still appearing on these boards makes me wonder about the attitude toward people with mental illness that some folks have. So I am left wondering more about the extended naysaying on threads like this and the naysayers than I am about Brian's compositional ability, which based on his output since 1977 appears intact, if a bit uncommercial.  There's Rio Grande, Melt Away, Don't Let Her Know She's An Angel, Desert Drive, and Smile as released, just to mention a few tunes. Any artist would be proud to claim any of those songs as his own.

When you compare Brian's activity and output since 1988 to, say, John Fogerty's, Brian has not been stingy with his talent. The idea of recycling unreleased material is irrelevant as well since we only know he's delving into his stockpile because we're so damn obsessive! Brian is among a small group of 60s artists who still issue new material; a lot of it I like and the best of it holds up with the greatest work he did as a young man. Brian has been doing it again in his own way.

Mental illness does affect one's entire life to some extent. I didn't read anyone rendering Brian incapable of functioning, just the degree of his functioning. I believe most record executives are questioning the same thing.


Based on what we've read about Brian's past "collaborations" with people like Eugene Landy, Jeff Lynne, Andy Paley, Joe Thomas, and even Darian Sahanaja, along with Brian's desire to re-record his own material, I think it's perfectly normal to question the extent of Brian's contribution to new projects.


You have named just a few good ones (in your opinion) out of several dozen not so good ones (in my opinion), at least according to the standards that Brian himself has set with his past work, and that is the topic of this thread. You state that any artist would be proud to claim any of those songs as his own. Do you know if Brian is proud of those songs? Do you know what Brian thinks about BW88, Imagination, Getting In Over My Head, or the Christmas album. I respect your opinion and your knowledge, Peter. And the fact that you have a relationship with Brian. What do you think Brian thinks of his output post 1975?

And, yes, I know we should be and are grateful that he's still sharing his music with us. We're just making conversation on a message board; harmless fun really...

Mental illness, as any disability, impacts Brian's life episodically.  It appears that we are seeing what is called "the spread effect" in threads like this, with people assuming that functioning is totally impacted by one's disability. At this point, other than some moderate anxiety and depression, my perception is that Brian is healthier than he has been in years. He isn't 100%, but then he wasn't either in the 60s when he made all those  BB records. What IS different today is that his medications are state of the art, and appear to  be effective.

Brian isn't collaborating with anyone on the new piece. I look forward to his work, and judging it on its own merits, rather than "grading on the curve." I personally have never done that with any of Brian's work anyway.

Brian's solo works are more personal than his BB output. Therefore, a number of  BB people do not find them as accessible. I find them satisfying in the sense that they are very honest in their outlook. Since BW '88, I have enjoyed about 70% of each solo album he has done-with the exception of Smile and the Christmas cd. Those were 100% enjoyable to me. I think there are lots of people who would love to see Brian fall on his ass so they can say his talent was a flash in the pan. Compositionally, his songs are as diverse and interesting as ever. Unless you are a Beach Boy fan who wants to see them reunited. In that instance, Brian's songs will suck until he is reunited with the surviving Beach Boys, at which point Brian's work will again be "genius" caliber.

As for management-if Ronnie Lippin could be nominated for sainthood, I would do it. Wrong religion, though. She gave Brian the freedom within his capability, given his illness, to proceed at his  own pace in the manner he chose to proceed. If you want to question Brian's management, question Brian. He has ALWAYS had the final say about what he would do and wouldn't. There are no conspiracies, just a person who was frightened of opening his music to the world, and who now is more confident and less fearful of being rejected.

Somewhere on one of these boards, I read that Darian had no idea Brian was working on anything new until the premiere date was announced. This was taken as a bad sign. Why not take it as a good sign... that Brian is indeed working on his own, at his own pace, with the motivation coming from himself?

I wonder if Paul McCartney could do it again if he wanted to? Hmmmm.....

No. If history is our guide, he (like pretty much every other best case remaining from the 60s*) can only keep doing either cheese or the same old thing.

*Dylan is the exception, with his past couple of albums really, really good. And I mean no harm or disrespect to the others, but let's be realistic, one's point of innovation is usually long-since past by the time one hits 50, much less 60. Dylan--and Waits, I guess--are the only two aging popsters I can think of who are doing anything other than repeating themselves (or worse).

I think Brian's "problem" (and I put that in quotes for a reason) stems more from age and complacency than his illness. In the first category, you have guys like McCartney. You just aren't as driven in your sixties as in your twenties and thirties. It goes with the territory. You want a real good example? Take Rod Stewart. I'm not even talking about his classic period; even when he was "selling out" to commerciality, he was still writing a great majority of his own material. However, since 1996, he has released TWO songs written by himself, and by his own admission has not written a single song in part or in full since 2001! It happens.

In the other category, though...take the case of Daniel Johnston. Ignore your opinions on his music, as it is a love/hate thing (I personally feel he is a genius in his own right, and love his work). He was writing and recording  more material in 4 years than most do in an entire career. After his breakdown, he slowed down a lot. However, under the correct medication, he is experiencing a career renaissance and is more "together" than he has been in years, and truthfully, probably ever. Sound familiar? Read this interview http://www.thecultureshock.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=662&Itemid=44

Brian might surprise us yet.Peter's post about the piece Brian's working on sounds promising...

It's funny but I don't look at it as mental illness affecting Brian in musical terms. To me that's neither here nor there. In 1981 he wrote two great songs at his absolute mental nadir. "City Blues" and "Oh Lord" As I said in my post I look at it as an artistic thing not a personal. The only thing I will stick strongly too is that Brian's voice went AWOL in 1975 and never came back though it is quite pleasent today. Whether mental illness caused him to damge his voice or not is debatable. It's touigh to know for sure when he credits so many of his creative ideas to other people at least in their origin.

"When you compare Brian's activity and output since 1988 to, say, John Fogerty's, Brian has not been stingy with his talent" and let's face it. much as I love Fogerty, the case with him is not so much using unreleased material, but basing his new stuff on his old material!

BTW...What Love Can Do is a nice little song that shows Brian could have a very good album left in him. After hearing it for the first time a few minutes ago, I'm really anticipating this new work...

I must disagree, Chaos and Creation was possibly the best Macca album since Ram, and having heard every album in between, I think thats a fair assessment. I would say a few of the songs on there are as good as quite a few Beatles songs.

I thought C&C was fine, but I don't think it is an example of Paul doing anything other than what he's been doing for the past 40 years. It's good. But it is the same old thing (and cheesy, as Paul is wont to be).

I don't love C&C wither. Much better then Driving Rain but Flaming Pie along with Press To Play,  are the only LP's of new material I like of his over the last 20 years. The oldies ones and Unplugged are good though.

C&C was consistent all the way through which was more than I think about PTP (Though love Only love remains and Press) and Flaming Pie (Godawful Jeff Lynne production), I think C&C also avoided some of the Macca cheese factor, going for some more considered and thoughtful writing, I look forward to his next album - the divorce album!

Taste is subjective, but I like Jeff Lynne's productions.

If Brian Wilson was functioning on the same "musical" level of Paul McCartney, including live performance (playing bass, guitar, keyboards, singing, talking), recording critically acclaimed albums, and basically remaining the same "Paul" we've come to appreciate for over 45 years now - we'd all be doing cartwheels and most of the threads on this message board wouldn't even be thought of. This is not to overly praise Paul McCartney or to denigrate Brian Wilson, but I don't see much comparison.

You're dead right, Macca's been functioning 'normally' and our boy had personal crises, mental health issues, drug-related problems and control freaks to deal with.  I still think that some of those 'critically acclaimed' albums aren't anywhere near as good as BW88.  Quite like Ram and Band on the Run...

Ram is my fave too. McCartney one is nice, Back To the Egg is half great. Band is of course good

Brian couldn't 'do it again' because the world has turned, no band or especially no 1 man is doing what Brian did in the 60's musically.  There are still many great musicians but the birth and early years of Rock & Roll was an exciting time, there isn't much of an envelope to push anymore, there will be no Good Vibrations that knocks everybody off their chair anytime soon. 

Basically: It's all been done, whoo oooh ooooh. 

If he wanted to, Brian could save the world...  :hat

100% agree with this. Sure, there are many records these days that I love, by bands such as Wilco, but nothing that hasn't been played with before. It's nice, but not really new.
Brian was really competitive, driven and at the height of his powers, circa '65-'66. So was Macca and the other Beatles. Those days and those ways are pretty much long gone. We're all now just retreading much of the past several decades of music.
I'm just glad to have Brian still with us, still making music. A lot of his peers aren't so lucky.


Heh! Good to see a fellow BNL fan here.

If he wanted to, could Brian do it again?

I mentioned a few weeks back the youtube-Ronnie Spector/ Brian "I Can Hear Music" clip.

That was in 2001. He adds a fantastic, well timed backing vocal IMO that fits in well with the song. If he came up with that, then in the use of harmony he does still have it.

Hit albums...I doubt it.

Yeah, in the realm of his harmonic genius (?), he's still got everything he once had, imho.  that's the 1 part that hasn't changed... there were tons of nice harmony ideas dripping all over the Christmas album, and there were some really neat ideas on GIOMH.  I always mention it, but look at how brilliant the harmony/double track/ background vocals/ background production is on "What I Really Want For Christmas" (the song)... there's areas where he's singing it solo, some he's double tracked with himself, some with the full band, some acapella, some with him and a piano, some fully produced, etc. it's brilliant and just all over the place, but yet sounds so polished and complete.  Most songwriters don't sit down and structure the harmonies in a song that way, and I rarely hear anybody that will mess with dynamics the way Brian still will.  He has no problem making a song soft one second and shrill and ear splitting the next... it doesn't always work well (lol) but on things like "We Wish You A Merry Christmas", the background parts are ALL shouted, and it sounds great. 

oh BRING! me some figgy pudding, oh BRING!!!! me some figgy pudding, oh BRRRINNNNNGG!!! me some figgy pudding," etc.

I totally agree Ron.  When it comes to vocal arranging, Brian is as good as he ever was.  There were lots of vocal things on the Christmas album that I thought were awesome, every bit as innovative as you'd expect.  Vocal arranging comes so naturally to him that I don't think he can ever really "lose" that gift. 

Songwriting is more difficult of course...after writing for over 40 years, I can imagine coming up with new ideas would be a very frustrating thing.  But I still think he's got a few great tunes left in him.  Heck, I really liked "What Love Can Do", and I'd be perfectly happy to have a few more songs in that vein.  And who knows, he might shock us with "That Lucky Old Sun" this fall.  At the end of the day, he's still Brian Wilson, the guy who has blown our minds several times over with his songs.  Even though most of that was 40 years ago (and Brian is a very different man than he used to be), you can never totally count out someone so immensely talented.   

Totally agree with you there. I think that point is spot on and what some people forget sometimes.

I don't think Brian will ever sit down and consciously make a decision, "OK I want to write a hit song now".

Brian will likely write new songs, they will likely vary in quality. Chances are some of them will be good enough to be hits, but whether they will achieve that status in today's music scene is unlikely.

As for the comments about Brian actually using some dynamic range in his recordings, he's simply doing what all producers should be doing...but many seem to think that simply blasting us with high decibel levels is the way to go - probably because thats what gets heard on the radio/TV above the background noise.

Brian's still got it...as sections of his work over the last five years have shown us...I think for Brian to pull it all together into a great album might be asking too much...but a few truly great songs, yeah...he cold do it again..

Well, that and any dynamic range gets squished out by the compressors the radio station pours all over the music they play.