The Smiley Smile Message Board

There is alot known about the relationships between Mike and Al, Brian and Mike and Al and Brian.  I always wondered about Carl's relationships through the years with Mike, Al and Bruce.  Carl certainly never said much about it.

The only thing I can really surmise is that things went very sour from 1977 through 1978 - and this is only looking at Carl's postion on stage.  I remeber seeing them in Boston the night Brian was on SNL.  Carl was to Mike's left, but very much in front (when he played the electic piano they had to place it out there.  If you look at the Largo videos he is as far away from Mike as possible.  Of course, a couple of years later when  he cleaned up Carl was right back where he was before.  Otherwise I don't have a clue as to what was going on between them although I guess Carls silence and Mike's reletive silence on Carl's death might speak volumes.

My sense is that Carl was frustrated by the devolution of the band into an oldies act and one would expect it to impact hgis relationship with his bandmates, but then again that was the right business decision.

Well Carl was obviously disappointed in the "oldies" direction, hence his leaving for a year in '81-'82.  But like you said, he realized it was a viable business decision, especially since their new music kept falling flat saleswise, with a couple of notable exceptions (and those exceptions tended to have a "retro" feel to them, which was restrictive artistically).  Interestingly though, Carl's own music (solo and with Beckley and Lamm) was not very artistic, but tried hard to be contemporarily commercial. 

I think that after Dennis' death, Al felt some guilt about the schism that had formed between he and Mike on the one side and the Wilson brothers on the other, so from that point, you start to see Al and Carl being interviewed together, and Mike and Bruce being interviewed together.  I think that's where the new "party lines" were drawn, although I also think all four of them stood united against Brian (actually the Landy-controlled Brian). 

I agree Al and Carl's friendship/bond was much more noticeable in the 80's, in fact I think even a little before Dennis's death from the time Carl came backin 82.In fact, if I recall correctly, Al was very upset and "had enough" when one of Mike's brothers punched Carl out on the Australian 78 tour. That seemed to weaken the Al/Mike alliance a little. I think if Al had sided with Dennis and Carl sooner, things may have gone down differently, but who knows??
It was certainly Al who became the critic of the oldies act in the 1990's and was big behind the Unplugged tour

It was more than just who interviewed together. When the BBs had to share dressing rooms in the '80s and '90s, Carl and Al would share one and Mike and Bruce the other. Carl and Al also socialized on the road, going to dinner together with their wives.

Other than the obvious family connection of brothers to one another, the alliances among the band in the '70s were more about lifestyle than personalities -- drug users vs. non-drug users, etc. As for Carl "hitting bottom" in '78, that was largely a response to the breakup of his marriage to Annie. Thankfully, he recovered.

Al was in a tough position.  On the one hand, he might not have agreed with the direction Mike was taking but on the other, he was an outsider to the Wilson family and had nothing in common with them lifestyle-wise in the late '70s and beyond.  Politically, he would have carried the least weight of the five original members despite having helmed Brother at one point.  When Dennis died and Carl had cleaned up, that dynamic changed.

Good thread!  I was thinking about starting something similar myself.  As the chubby younger brother in my family, I always identified with Carl.  I assume that he must have had a lot of loyalty to Brian but also to the rest of the band.  He had to have had a hard time balancing the two.   I'm sure he wanted the band to go on, and of course he had a family to support.  At the same time, I'm sure he wasn't pleased with the direction that Mike was steering the band.

It couldn't have been easy for him.

Jim

This is very interesting. I haven't heard much of anything on their 80s and 90s relationships. However, I find it hard to believe that Carl and Bruce didn't get along. What would be the reason for that division? Does anybody know?

Perhaps the substance behind the much-quoted statement of Bruce being only in it for the money, as opposed to Carl's more deep relationship (literally familial) with the band? I could imagine how if a person were so dedicated to the band itself, the music itself, etc., it would be problematic for someone else to have a purely (or at least significantly more) commercial outlook.

I believe that Bruce's quotes about being in it for the money are mostly the way he found to protect his own sanity from wacky band members and fans. He's Cousin It.

Doesn't bother me either way. I was just saying that may have been a cause of any rift w/ Carl (not that I have a clue--pure speculation).

As for BJ being in it for the money, as I've often said, that's fine with me. It tends to be uber-fans who care about such things, who apply some sort of religious vow of poverty and who venerate the art in it all. I say, hey, we all go to work to get paid. If you're lucky enough to be able to have thge BBs provide that check, good for you.

"I believe that Bruce's quotes about being in it for the money are mostly the way he found to protect his own sanity from wacky band members and fans."

Got to be.  Let's face it, he's not short of money.  It's not like he's got eight ex-wives to pay off.  He must get an income from his own stuff and isn't he independently wealthy due to his adopted parents?  Maybe he just enjoys this stuff.  Perhaps the reason Carl and Bruce might not have got on is that Bruce isn't exactly adventurous.  After all, here's the band member who already had a successful career independent of the BB yet, with the exception of one album, he's done nothing as a solo artist since 1965 (yeah, yeah, I know he's worked with others). Maybe he just likes doing what he does.

Wow...did I miss something?  I wasn't aware of any friction between Carl and Bruce in the '80s or '90s.  It's true Bruce is close to Mike, but Bruce wasn't a voting member, so I don't know if that mattered in any schism between Carl and Mike.  I just know that in interviews, they tended to pair them up Carl/Al and Mike/Bruce, and now I know that the locker room arrangement was that way too thanks to Emdeeh.  Every interview I've read of Bruce he praises Carl (even while Carl was still with us).  If anyone knows of real tension between Carl and Bruce, what was it about?

I don't make that connection either, Craig.

I meant to say, "musically adventurous".  I don't want to give the impression  I  think our surviving surfer boy wouldn't risk his neck on an Amazon trek :)

Bruce is much odder then anyone here may know. He is really a split personality. When he is the "good" Bruce he is friendly with fans, supportive of the Wilson's and able to stay out of lawsuits.  The "bad" Bruce is a spolit rich kid. He can be mean to fans,, treat his assistents poorly, be very shallow. If he doesn't like something he will be nasty, if he does he can be very nice.  He seems to be realible as far as showing up at shows etc. I just think he would be the most dificult to get along with.

Does anybody remember that AOL chat he participated in some years back? I seem to recall a few feathers getting ruffled then, just don't remember what had happened.

What's up with Bruce's voice these days?  He used to have the sweetest voice of any of the BBs (and I don't necessarily mean that as praise; it's just a fact).  Last time I saw the BBs, he barely sang at all, but did a superb, slightly strained version of Disney Girls and sang a little God Only Knows.  Has he had some problem with his throat?  We know about Dennis and BW's problems; Al's voice seems to be pretty much intact; I suspect Carl's cigarette intake roughened up his singing a little in the late 70svocal chords; and Mike's preference for singing nasally has irritated many people since the mid-70s, but Bruce...? I presume he doesn't (and didn't) smoke, so has he had surgery?

His voice IMHO started to sound a bit different as far back as "Endless Harmony", but really became noticeable on "She Believes in Love Again". As for his voice now, I cannot say, because I haven't heard a vocal from him past 1992, so I can't judge.

From everything I've read, he hardly ever sings, and has been like that for a few years. Let's just put it this way...Adrian Baker did far more vocals on the 1998 Nascar thing than Bruce ,and actually, I wonder if Bruce even sang on the album.

Which means one of two things...
1) His voice must sound terrible these days

or

2). He doesn't care as long as he gets his pay check.

"I wonder if Bruce even sang on the album."

As far as I'm aware, he only contributed keyboards on (I think) Don't Worry Baby.

Yeah I would love to hear about it. I do remember a chat where he derided fans saying the internet gives them too much info. He claims they find where he stays and bother him.

Well, that would probably bug me too.

Yeah it would bother me as well but I guess the way he said it was a little snotty to me. I understand the sentiments though

he walked out on two friends of mine in the middle of an interview when they said they liked the 'Love You' album.

Mike avoided them altogether.

just a little snotty...

Maybe they should've prefaced their comments with, "We really like your vocals on I'll Bet He's Nice..."

As much as I don't like to take sides, I think Bruce is my least favourite of the BBs. Even though Mike is crazy, at least he has some balls and doesn't sit on the fence like Bruce. Also his production on LA and KTSA stinks! :lol

THAT'S what I was trying to remember (besides the AOL chat). I've heard that story several times...didn't know it was you, although it wouldn't surprise me if it also happened to someone else,too.

Bruce is my least favorite too, though I like his Sunflower and Surf's Up stuff.

 I can give you a few more examples of how uneven his personality is. I requested an interview with him and he wanted to be paid for it. Now in my eyes a paid interview taints the process in some ways, so I declined. He did answer a few questions on the UK board for me nicely. However, when I suggested he would sound good singing the song Daydream Believer because of his vocal style he was a but rude about it. He dismissed the song untill some others took hhim to task on it whereas he backed off a little. So I just see him as somebody kind of stuck on himself, but who eems like he can be ok if he wants to be.

Bruce Johnston seems to me like a participating observer. I certainly do enjoy his sometimes insightful comments on the group, yet his dismissal of the Love You record (why?) and (of all things, considering him touring with Mike) Do It Again remain a complete mystery to me.

I've never met the man, but just on a basic creative and psychological level, touring full-time with a band in which you hardly ever sing anymore (apparently), nor are you playing audible keyboards, basically says that not only is it just a job to him, but it's a job he's not that interested in anymore except that it's easy and that it pays well.  Contrast that to the early '70s when he was an integral part of the band on bass and organ.  The guy is a really good musician -- I've heard his keyboard skills praised as first rate by many people, and even when he's miming someone else's bass part, I've noticed he still meticulously plays the right notes -- so if he felt like it and wanted to challenge himself, he could probably step in there and really contribute even his voice isn't what it used to be.  His musicianship is probably on a level with much of the backup band.

I'm not saying that he should, or that it's even desired or that I blame him.  I am saying is that it's something that doesn't interest him that much, and that he's probably not that interested in challenging himself.  On a basic human level, that concerns me a little.  I wouldn't want that gig, myself.  I'd get very, very bored with it, and to keep doing something year after year without really contributing all that much or using your talent does carry with it some other implications about your personality, goals and approach to living.  If it was me I wouldn't consider it healthy, personally, but then again I'm not him.

I'm not judging, just making an observation.

I was one of the ones who took him to task on that thread.  I even asked him if he told Davy Jones that Daydream Believer sucked!

Bruce always struck me as a happy-go-lucky kind of guy though there is obviously this other side to his personality that is a little unpleasant. I've never been too keen on his creative contributions to The Beach Boys either (The Nearest Faraway Place, uhhhh). And he's definitely gone down in my estimation after knocking 'Love You'!

Somewhat off-topic, but does anyone know what Bruce's problem was with Curt Boettcher?  I must've asked him three or four times about his musical relationship with Curt and he always blew off the question, whereas Bruce was always very genial in answering all of my other stupid queries.  I'm always looking for more insight into Curt's music from people that knew him, and I think the song he and Bruce recorded together is fantastic.

Yeah, I don't know...I've seen a quote from Curt where he said he mixed about half of the "L.A. (Light Album)", but when I asked Bruce about it recently, he replied that Curt mixed NONE of it aside from "HCTN".  Bruce almost sounded aggravated.  Who knows.

Judging from some interviews I've read, I think his problem with "Love You" is twofold:  one, Bruce considers the whole "Brian's Back" campaign a manipulative ripoff (so do most of us, but we love the record anyway).  I'm getting from his interviews that he feels Brian was being taken advantage of, and that the therapy which should've been private was being done in public.  And two, he doesn't like the dry synthesized sound of that record...he's quoted as saying things like "the old analog synths really sucked all the air out of Brian's productions".  He's also referred to Brian's life in the sixties as being his "real life", so he obviously considers the Landy-manipulated childish Brian of the "Love You" era to be a sad shadow of the "real" Brian whose music he loves and respects.

I didn't know Bruce had a problem with "Do It Again", but I'm guessing it might be the same problem that David Leaf has alluded to having with it:  it's a total nostagia-fest, designed just to get a hit. 

But hey, I love both "Do It Again" and "Love You".  If I was a personal friend of Brian's though, who watched him in his glory days creating masterpieces like "Let Him Run Wild", "Pet Sounds", and "Good Vibrations", I might not think too highly of those two records either. 

Pure speculation on my part, but I'm starting to get the feeling that Bruce has been adversely affected by all of the crap that he's seen over the last 40+ years, and it's starting to show. We dwell a lot on the Wilsons and Mike Love, but Bruce was there for almost everything, too. He's experienced the deaths, the family battles, the lawsuits, the failed albums, the bad business deals, the bad publicity, etc. Bruce probably thinks it's all worth it because of the music (I personally don't think he's in it for the money), but when the music stops being fun, well...

Never met the guy but from what he has posted on various message boards he comes across ok but what does rub is the "glad to home for a few days, the roads so tiring" c-rap. Give me a break! Like anybody,if you don't like your job, quit or stop b!tching about it.
Think its cool he still surfs though Would Dennis still have been riding at 60?

Before Bruce started to frequent the message boards, he seemed to be looking for a place to post opinions.  He posted a few messages on my guestbook on the Beach Boys Setlist Archive.  He seemed really nice and complimentary at the time.  Years later, I introduced myself as the guy who does the setlists, and he said, "Thanks for doing that."

Oddly enough, though, whenever I post anything on the BBB Board seeking a response from him, it seems that he purposely avoids answering my questions.  He'll answer other questions around mine, but totally ignore mine.  I just get the vibe that he has a negative impression of me.

When I get to go backstage nowadays, I don't really introduce myself.  Last year, he wanted to talk about cars and was very friendly, but he asked me some questions that I had no idea how to answer...when it came to the standard fan stuff, he obliged by autographing a picture, but had no interest after that.

At a baseball game, some friends and I were standing on the sidelines after a show waiting for a particular band member to come out and talk to us (we had gone to the pre-show party earlier and met Mike & Bruce).  Thinking we wanted to take up more of his time, he brushed past us and said bluntly, "We did this earlier", and kept walking.

On the other hand, I saw him come out before a concert to greet a fan in a wheelchair, and talked with him for a while.  So I would agree that he does seem to have two different ways of coming across to fans.

I think Bruce's most pertinent comments have been (I paraphrase and conflate):

"You're in this way deeper than any of us [the band] are. To me it's just a business".

There are days when my job is fun, and worthwhile, and others when I'm clockwatching and would really be anywhere else. Difference is I don't have people asking me dumb questions about the minutae of something I did ten years ago, hanging around after work for autographs or taking pops at the way I work on public fora.

For the most part Bruce has been amiable and polite to me, both in public and in private communication, and often very amusing, but yeah, one or twice either he's been in a bad mood or I've said something dumb or too intrusive. Thing is, he's invariably apologised in very short order. I sense a feeling of frustration, especially with what's happened to Brian since 1976. As someone's said, he's been there since 1965: I can only imagine what horrors he's keeping quiet about.

Thanks RobMac I just always heard his voice singing that song. He did a fine job on With A Little Help From My Friends. He had a very "pop" sound so I thought it would be a good song for him. I know it's seems to be an odd choice but it was just a thought.

"Would Dennis still have been riding at 60?"  The surf? ;)

the more I read about Bruce, the more he scares me!! >:D

AAAAHHAAAAA!!!! cute jonathan, real cute!!!!