The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm working on the 57th version of my personal SMiLE fan mix. Not that I found any new material, I just like to change it up occasionally. This edition is going to take the "kitchen sink" approach, using almost every tidbit I can find. However, I'd like to use only SMiLE era (1966-67) recordings. So my question is this:

Did "Can't Wait Too Long" have any roots in SMiLE? Did Brian record anything, even a snippet, that can be considered the genesis of "Can't Wait Too Long" in 1966 or early 1967? Or did the very first recordings originate sometime around the Wild Honey sessions?

It uses the bassline of "Wind chimes" at some point but that's about the only Smile-connection I know of.

Same here. And I think it has been recorded for the first time in late 1967 / early 1968. But I've included it as a bonus track on my two SMiLE mixes...

I've used it before also, but lately I'm questioning why. Just because it "sounds" like a SMiLE track? If that was the case, you could use "Diamond Head" or "You're Welcome". I have been using the water chant from Sunflower's "Cool, Cool Water" because I like the wind sound effects.

It's hard to believe that just because, many years ago, somebody stuck it on a SMiLE bootleg that it got a life of its own.

I think I'm going to represent "Can't Wait Too Long" by using that short a capella snippet from the Hawthorne CD Disc 2.  I'll find a cool place to insert it.

Actually, I do use "You're Welcome", just because I remember hearing it as a child (my father had, and still has a "Heroes & Villains" 45, with "You're Welcome" as the B-side) and I've liked it since then. For "Can't Wait Too Long", it's because it was on the two first SMiLE bootlegs I had heard... And it was one of the tracks that had shocked me the most then.  :)

Edit: historical accuracy doesn't have a lot of importance in my SMiLE mixes... Since they're made "just for fun", I don't care whether all tracks are really associated with SMiLE or not, as long as they are associated for me... It's the same for "Three Blind Mice", a 1965 instrumental included on some SMiLE boots: it has nothing to do with SMiLE, but I discovered it at the same time... Plus, it sounds SMiLE-ish. So I include it as a bonus track too.

I seem to remember Miles Davis' 'Here Come De Honey Man' from 'Porgy and Bess' (Gershwin) being included on an early Smile boot because it sounded Smile-like, as well (it doesn't)!

Not so - it was included as a tracker. Worked like a charm, too.

I used to, and sometimes, still feel that way also. When I make mixes for myself, everything is fair game. I've started out my mixes with "You're Welcome" several times. I just love that "You're welcome to come" line as the opening line. You know, "You're welcome to come on the journey, the trip, the SMiLE trip. I usually save "Our Prayer" for near the end. It's more of a nighttime song, or a closing song.

Then I started making SMiLE mixes for others, and I felt this sense of responsibility, like I had to be true to actual, or real SMiLE tracks. It's like I didn't want to deceive anyone by putting on tracks that weren't meant  for SMiLE. It was kind of the "purist" approach. Now, I put on mostly SMiLE recoprdings, but still sneak in the occasional 1971 "Surf's Up".

I think I've been reading too many BB message boards.... :police:

Tracker?  What's that mean, in this context?

I think Andrew meant it was added to a Smile master tape to help figure out who was the source of bootlegs.

Anybody use "Tones" or "Tune X"?

Precisely. Back in the past - say, oh, the early 80s - a certain fan, who for the sake of this post we won't name (let's call him, oh, Tortilla Bed) was given a Smile tape by another renowned fan, Term Puree (surprisingly, another alias) with strict instructions not to copy it for anyone. You work out the rest...

BTW, trackers are not always as obvious as bogus tracks...  >:D

Surprises me that Tortilla Bed wasn't more aware...

:lol Where'd you come up with those aliases?  That was so random!

An online anagram generator is a wonderful thing.  ;D

yeah, i personally talked to this original source back in 1985. he/she told me that the miles davis song was put on the tape because it would let him/her know if any tapes were leaked as to who the leaker was and also because he/she liked the song and it sounded "airy" to them. and that is why the md song is on the 1st smile vinyl boot. this person got quite a chuckle out of that story.

My understanding is that a number of fans are also not too happy with Mr. Tortilla Bed.  :wink

Ain't that the truth!

Yes indeed.

I remember that Tortilla Bed bloke, he owes plenty of us money. I hope he gets bad bellirot.


That's a poor "anagram", I know.

Maybe when the First Wave stuff goes out of copyright we might get satisfaction, like the Elvis 5.1 set I picked up last week?

After 6/7 minutes of hard work, I've finally managed to identify "Tortilla Bed" and "Term Puree"...  ;D

I was totally unaware of that "tracker" thing... Pretty clever!

Terre Pume, it has to be said, has always struck me as a wonderful, honourable, loyal guy and folk should not  perceive his name in association with the bootlegging activities of  Drab. Yes, we all love bootlegs, but that betrayal of trust seems to me to have been a bit too much.

Back to Can't Wait Too Long -  I always assume (rightly or wrongly, I don't mind which) that the first and last bits of the first version I can remember hearing were SMiLE out-takes.

The first was what I called "the camp-fire intro", with accapella group humming, followed by a thumping instrumental accompanied (I recall) by handclaps.

The closing section I associate (rightly or wrongly, I don't mind which) with SMiLE was the "Baby you know that I, can't wait for ever, woke in the night again, we werem't together, windows of darkness are all I can see through, searching the shadows, hoping to see you…" section, and the descending base scales that followed.

That the latter made it on to the Sea of Tunes SMiLE set just added weight to my theory (rightly or wrongly, I don't mind which).

Small prob with "CWTL" being Smile out-takes - the earliest session was October 1967.  ::)

yeah and another trick back 25-30 yrs ago with traders was to pan the sound to left or right while making someone a copy of your tape. they would also keep a list of who they traded what with and alter when they panned the sound. just another way they could track exactly who leaked stuff they said they wouldn't do. explains why some may have old tapes of songs and such with the sound to one side for awhile. another trick that worked.

srsly who are these guys? I cant figure it out :lol

... assuming that section was called CWTL at the time it was recorded, and not just salvaged from the sessions of another song. On the SoT set (I'm going by memory... it might have been Archaeology, or even another set), the final descending bass riff was labelled "Heroes". So many SMiLE songs were renamed, or became something else... can it be proven definitively that those sections I'm refering to were recorded as CWTL, and that they were definitely recorded in or after October 1967?

That's on the 3CD SOT Smile boot, I think. And yes, it's labelled as "H&V". But does it sound anything like any version of "H&V" you've ever heard ? Nope. Simple error - there's a track on, I think, Deep Sea Treasures that's listed as being cut in 1965... yet there's a clip of "GV" on it. Should I take this as proof that "GV" was recorded at least a year earlier than all existing documentation indicates ?  ::)


Yes: there are AFM sheets for "BWTL/CWTL" dated 10/28/67, 11/1/67, 7/24/68 & 7/26/68 listing the apposite instumentation. Of course, the main "CWTL" riff originates in the original version of "Wind Chimes" (3rd section), but then Brian was forever doing that kind of thing. The recordings we know as "CWTL" are post-Smile (indeed, post-Smiley Smile) sessions.

I hear the Windchimes link in my head right now! 

But despite the lack of AFM sheets I'm gonna cling to my theory cos it give me a degree of pleasure! I'll continue to assume they're SMiLE extracts spliced into a later session's output, and hope that one day, in the far-off future, my great grandchildren log on to find the evidence offered for downloading at beachboyscentral.com.

And then read Midnight's Children and find further confirmation!

And no, I don't assume the bootleggers are right every time. It was just a very odd slip that's always had me wondering. Can't think of the Deep Sea Treasures slip you mention but I'll listen to it soon - can you point me at it off the top of your head?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

DST Vol. 1 track 11 - "We Blew It (65 sessions)". Some kind of promo thing, with a sped-up clip of the "GV" 45 in the background.

Wee Helper, I love the 'campfire intro' version of CWTL you refer to. I first heard this on a Smile bootleg and find it difficult to accept that these beautiful harmonies don't come from the Smile sessions despite no evidence to support the hunch. They just sound so delicate and breezy  - amongs my favourite pieces of BB music. I recently did a Smile mix and used this version of CWTL with the descending bassline tag from the Smiley twofer version spliced on the end. This lead beautifully into Love to Say dada - I think these pieces (the tag and dada) sound really similar actually.

Thanks Buddha,

I don't follow the "available evidence" line on this one, too much like the government's "best available intelligence at the time" line. There's too much detail missing from the SMiLE era as it is and this might just be another example. Cripes, perhaps this session was one of the "trashed" Columbia vocal sessions!

Whatever, whether it's eventually shown to be SMiLE or not, in my fantasy picture of SMiLE as it stands now, IT IS and that's what counts, to me.

I remember during the SMiLE premier in London some dude in the front gushing "yes" when the band started the vocals during the Fire music. Like, it was part of HIS dream theory that those vocals had always belonged there. Even though they were part of "Fall Breaks", the idea that they were once part of the SMiLE album's "Fire" music had always been HIS fantasy, although there's no documentary evidence to suggest they belong there. All power to the guy.

It's important that we're all allowed to dream and entertain our own fantasies.

I think that dude was me.  ;D

And yes, there is detail missing from the Smile sessions, but the AFM sheets from 1967 & 1968 clearly refer to the sections we know. Plus, assoerted band members have denied "CWTL" was  a Smile discard.

What I don't follow is why it matters if it was a smile track or not (and it wasn't). It's a great, if unfinished, song that incorporates many of BW's different production styles and some sweet vox. You can put it on your smile mix, just like I can put Guess I'm Dumb on my Pet Sounds mix. Doesn't mean that's when it's from or what is was for. Is this confusion all from that old Smile boot? Man, I had no idea so many people had that.

I'd like to attempt to answer your question, grillo, but just the fact that you asked it might mean you won't understand my response.

I take The Beach Boys music seriously, probably too seriously. That's why I'm sitting at the computer typing this on a Thursday night, when I could be/should be doing a dozen other things.

Of all the BB/BW music I hold sacred, none is more sacred than the SMiLE sessions. For decades now, I've been trying to "spread the word" about SMiLE by recording numerous cassettes and CD's. I've tried, with varying degrees of success, to convert/enlighten parents, siblings, friends, co-workers, and various music fans. So I can relate to any SMiLE "nuts", and I use that term affectionately.

Therefore, to me, it is important that I try to stay as accurate as possible in dispersing any information about SMiLE. I guess it's just a personality trait or something, but I have the desire to find out as much information as I can, and basically, store the facts and throw out the myths. And that carries over to the SMiLE fan mixes I''ve been making recently. If it ain't a SMiLE track, I don't know if I wanna include it. There are other compilations I can put it on. It's harmless fun, really. A little obssessive compulsive, but still harmless.

Does that make any sense?  :police:

Makes perfect sense to me, mah soul bro' - sounds like you an' me be singing from th' same hymn sheet.  :hat

Didn't Brian include Can't Wait Too Long on his first SMile live concert title list?  I know he included things like Diamondhead and Time to Get Alone.  Since Brian never finished Smile, you could put some of these titles (and Mama Says and Cool Cool Water from Wild Honey sessions) in a Smile mix that could come from, say, late 1967 IF he had finished it at that time.  Who's to say what would have been included then?

I'm totally with you on the whole converting the unelightened thing and the reading/writing about the BB when I should be doing anything else thing, but CWTL was recorded AFTER what most people consider the Smile period, so what is there to argue about? Had Smile come out after SS or WH it very well may have included CWTL, but it didn't, and Smile '66/'67 is what most people consider to be smile. I guess you could argue that, since it was gonna come out in '70/'71 that Sail Plane Song might be a Smile relic. At some point there must be a line to draw. Nonetheless, I admire all those who are spreading the word and trying to do it as accurately as possible.

I think researching the facts is important but ironically the more we discover about Smile the less magical it will become imo. Therefore long live the fantasies, facts be damned! I do think the accapella parts sound Smile and in my fantasy they were recorded originally as part of Wind Chimes (don't tell me ... wrong key), or as a variation of WC as With Me Tonight seems to be a variation of Vegetables. I guess in the face of all available evidence this is foolish, but I think you have to go with your hunches sometimes.

My other Smile hunch is that the 'new' melody to Song For Children (the clarinet part) is vintage 66 - I'm convinced of this!

Thanks for the response, grillo. This is good conversation, and I appreciate it.

I'm not really arguing about CWTL, I'm just inquiring about it. That's why I started the thread. I really do want to know if ANY OF IT originated during the 66-67 SMiLE sessions. I knew there were several experts on this message board, yourself included, who could separate fact from fiction.

The only problem is, I'm kinda back where I started from - almost. I know as FACT that the earliest recording session for CWTL was October 1967. However, was ANY of that session a continuation of ANY part that was BORN in the 66-67 sessions? The majority of the posters said no, that it was considered a new song in October 1967. However, a few think it MIGHT'VE had its roots in the SMiLE sessions. Of course that's speculation, and I understand that.

And I can live with that. I don't mind, I love this stuff. Give me 40 SMiLE tracks and my CD burner, and I'm Brian Wilson in my home computer room! I can almost feel what he was going through, with the obsessive tinkering and rearranging. I've burned CD's already and threw them out before I even listened to them entirely because something didn't flow right. And as you mentioned, grillo, I've added post-SMiLE tracks because they fit the feel. Back in the cassette days, I used to go - Do You Dig Worms/Til I Die/Can't Wait Too Long/Cool Cool Water. Hey, it sounded good to me and I needed to fill up a 90 min. tape. Anyway...

Thanks, everyone, for your responses, and I'd like to keep the thread going. Would anybody like to share their thoughts on Tones/Tune X? Yes, I'm debating whether to include it on my next fan mix.  :police:
 

Sheriff John Stone,
While I'd like to consider myself an expert, I'm really just an obsessive fan who gets his info from all the usual sources, but thanks for the complement! About Tones; is there a question about when it was recorded, or what it was intended for? I get confused about all this new info I've read on these boards. Is the suggestion that it may be a Carl tune? It's the track with all the marimbas, right? Or is that holliday? Damn, I really am confused, and me with no CD's nearby to reference!!!!!!

"Tones (Tune X)" was long held to be a Smile track, but it turns out that the song that is correctly titled "Tones" isn't a BW song at all, but one of carl's.

Er, I think.

I might include songs that were written during the Smile era (not just recorded). Who knows when CWTL was written or Diamond Head? Cool Cool Water was written in March 67; so in theory that could go into your Smile mix. You're Welcome was written and recorded during the Smile era but was never meant for the album but it can fit in quite easily.

 8)

All of the above! Actually, Tones is a cello-driven instrumental, recorded later (?) in the SMiLE sessions, believed to be composed by Carl (or maybe Brian!), and probably not intended for SMiLE.  Or was it? Darn, there's so many great places to put it...



I was hoping Brian would've included "You're Welcome" in BWPS because I still think it's the best opening song there is for SMiLE. Follow "You're Welcome" with "Do You Like Worms" and you're off to the races! I digress...Anybody use "Tones" in their mix?

I do... But as for CWTL, I include it as a bonus track. On a CD, after a "regular" fan-mix of SMiLE, there's always some room left... So why not use it? But I would personally never include it in a "real SMiLE tracklisting"...

hey I might try You're Welcome as an opener followed by Plymouth rock - but then where to place Our Prayer?! I always think Heroes sounds weird following Our Prayer whereas Good Vibrations seems to fit better imo.

Anyway I digress too. I don't use Tune X in mixes really but it always strikes me as having a strong resemblance to Holidays, with it's slide guitar lines.. It seems so similar to me - what's that all about?

If I start with "Our Prayer", I follow it with "Good Vibrations" and then with "Look". That's when I want to get "Good Vibrations" out of the way. And also, the guy has find the girl first, before we get to the past tense in "Heroes And Villains" -  FELL in love YEARS AGO with an innocent girl...

If I put "Good Vibrations" in the middle, I'll go with "Holidays" then "Wind Chimes" then "Good Vibrations". I like the lyric "on the WIND that lifts her perfume through the air" AFTER "Wind Chimes".

When I put "Our Prayer" near the end, I'll go "Our Prayer" then "Surf's Up". I used that combination for a long time. I think "Our Prayer" sounds more like a night song, an ending song, and to me, "Surf's Up" is a better closer than BWPS's "Good Vibrations".

 

There is that conversation between Al and Brian and Carl about Prayer being the 'intro to the album', so I feel like I must put it first, and end it with 'You're Welcome', even though that is also sort of an introductory type-o-thing. But, then again, 'You're Welcome' is technically post-Smile, so I guess I'm screwed no matter what!!

Nope - recorded mid-December 1966. If that's technically post-Smile then so is most of "H&V", "Surf's Up", "Vega-Tables" and "Love To Say Da Da"  :)

Which makes it more interesting. I used to think "You're Welcome" was something Brian knocked off in about five minutes to slap on the "Heroes And Villains" B side. But as AGD points out, it was recorded right along with the other SMiLE stuff. But, Brian had the chance to include it when he set the record straight with BWPS...  ::)

BTW SloopJohnB, where do you place "Tones" on your SMiLE mix?

I tend to follow GV with Look too as they share the same riff. I agree about the lyric of H&V making it more logical to place it away from the start. Do you try and set your mix up like a LP with an A and B side? Therefore if GV is the start of your A side, Heroes has to kick of the B side! Also then I try to place all the Americana stuff on one side, and the elements on another but it begins to get a bit complicated.

Where do you place Wonderful and Child? I find Child has to precede Surf's Up at the end as they belong together imo. I find it diffifcult to separate Wonderful, Look, Child and Surf's Up as they work so well together on BWPS.

"But, Brian had the chance to include it when he set the record straight with BWPS...  "

Maybe he did put the record straight with BWPS...

I set it up as one continuous piece. You're right, it can get complicated to make sides. Besides, with a CD it isn't necessary. I do, however, try to group the stuff according to themes - Americana, Elemental, Child/Father - but even that gets complicated. As much as I don't like BWPS, my mixes do end up looking a lot like the BWPS sequence. But I will NEVER end with "Good Vibrations". Never.

I usually place "Wonderful" after "Heroes And Villains". I like to follow the "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough" theme with "she belongs there left with her liberty". You know, it's like the rider left to explore new territory and left the girl and/or child behind. I then put a portion of "Mama Mama Mama" after "Wonderful". I want to capitalize on the "all that's left is a girl who's loved by her mother and father" lyric.  I also capitalize on "Wonderful"'s lyric, "farther down the path is a mystery" by going into the "Barnyard". Then I burn it down.

We must think alike. I usually put "Child Is Father Of The Man" right before "Surf's Up" also. And I use the instrumental intro of "Surf's Up" from the boxed set. When I get tired of ending my SMiLE mix with "Surf's Up", I'll try "Heroes And Villains" with the "false Barnyard" snippet attached. I'll fade it off into the sunset. To me, "Heroes And Villains" is such a great REVIEW song. When he sings "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough", it's like, OK, you finally made it!

Usually, my SMiLE mixes last about 40 to 50 minutes, so on a CD I've got at least 30 minutes to "play with". These 30 minutes are "less serious" than the "real" SMiLE mix that preceded them: that's where I throw "bonus tracks" (think "Tones", "He Gives Speeches", "CWTL", the SMiLE ad, or even "Diamond Head" or "Three Blind Mice"...) without really caring for their recording date. As long as I somehow associate them with SMiLE, I put them there.

But I would never include "Tones" in a SMiLE tracklist. It'll never be more than a "bonus" track.

My mixes usually end up looking a lot like BWPS (even though, like you, I don't particularly like it), because I'm quite satisfied with this tracklist and the "three themes". There are sometimes little variations (especially in the Elements)... But I have some rules: I always begin with "Our Prayer", followed by "Heroes & Villains". And I also always end with Good Vibrations.

Good Vibrations always has a special ending: after the end of the song, there are about 30 seconds of silence, and then an unused part of Good Vibrations fades in and out. It makes a nice, "surprise" ending to the album... Much like the famous "runout groove" on Sgt. Pepper's.

And I don't really care for a "LP time limit" or for "A and B sides"...

I have recently got new ideas for another SMiLE mix... I want to spend more time doing it, and I want to be more focused when doing it than I was when doing my other mixes. I'd like the next one to be "the definitive one"... I'll probably do it next July or August.

The previous mixes were really done in a Do-It-Yourself way, using software that wasn't really appropriate (to "link" two tracks, I would put the first song in Windows Media Player, the second in Winamp, and record the whole thing, by launching the first song and then the second track at the right time. This technique would become a real pain in the neck when wanting to "layer" different parts: half a second too late, and the whole thing was screwed up. That's probably one of the reasons why I wasn't focused enough: the "recording process" was a bit too difficult. :lol I laugh at myself when I think about this technique... But at the time it was the only way I could do it  :-\). Now I've got Sound Forge, Audacity, Pro Tools, that kind of stuff...

(btw please forgive me for my bad english. I have trouble finding my words tonight)

I like to use a hidden track/surprise ending also. I usually end my mixes with "Surf's Up". So I'll then wait about 20 seconds and tack on the "boy/girl boy/girl boy/girl" snippet from "Carl's Coda" from the Hawthorne CD Disc 2. It keeps with the Heroes And Villains theme, and, because it's recorded at a lower volume, it makes a nice, mellow fade out.

I'm curious though, about two things. First, do you end with "Good Vibration" because of BWPS or because you really like the way it fits there? Or both?

Second, you seem really adamant about "Tones" not being a bonafide SMiLE track. I'm not disagreeing with you, but why do you feel that way? Do you feel it was actually a Carl project?

   

Wait, is Tones the outro of Hollidays? Or is it an other mis-labled track. My Smile memory-recall seems to have faded of late, so I'm just trying to figure out what you guys are talking about. P.S. As for You're Welcome being recorded so early, I was under the (mistaken) impression that it was something BW just threw together at the last minute for the H&V single. Note to Self; study sessionography before making stupid statements!

To me, it fits quite nicely with the "elements" theme... It's some kind of "fifth element", something intangible... I even read somewhere that vibrations were a part of the Buddhist elements.

BWPS influenced me, because I used to end my mixes with Surf's Up. But after listening to BWPS, I thought that it was actually the best way to end a fan-mix, especially if you're going to make other people listen to it: the listener is shocked by the previous tracks... But there comes Good Vibrations. The ultimate slap in the face!  :-D


I don't really know if it's a Carl project or not... The real problem is that I don't "know" enough about that track to know what to make of it.

That said, musically, I think it would fit nicely in the Americana part or in the Elements.

I love BWPS but also wish they had ended it with Surf's Up. My mixes always start with Our Prayer and end with Surf's Up as there are Brian quotes placing these tracks at the start and end, although I guess he may have changed his mind even about that. I think I prefer GV to follow Our Prayer as its key seems to fit much more naturally. Heroes jars a bit for me after OP.

I always use the alternate Heroes instead of the 45 one. I'd miss the cantina section too much if I used the released version. The problem then is that I miss the beautiful Sunny Down Snuff ending. On a recent mix I took the Heroes sections from the boxset, snipped the beginning so that it starts with Gee and replaced the false barnyard ending with Sunny Down Snuff. I call this my Heroes and Villains part 2. I reckon Brian at one point planned to have Gee running into several of those other sections including Swedish Frog, as there is an original mix on the SOT boot, so this kind of justifies it for me. What do other people do with the Hereos sections track? It contains so many great bits, but if I just use it as it is I find it's a kind of H&V overkill.

I like to follow the cantina Heroes with OMP/Yams. The false Barnyard ending to Heroes sounds great followed by OMP. As the False Barnyard originally had YAMS lyrics it makes sense to me to place these pieces together.

I follow OMP/YAMS with prelude to fade. It jars a bit but I like the melting chellos followed by the western theme, and False Barnyard, OMP/YAMS and prelude to fade all sound great together to me. The title implies it was the penultimate section of Heroes, but then what is the fade that it precedes? I recently placed Barnyard after the flutter horn and it sounds great - right key, timing works perfectly and Barnyard is a fade so this makes great sense to me.

"Heroes And Villains" is a tricky one. More than any SMiLE song, I never know where to put it! I agree with you, buddhahat, that it jars when following "Our Prayer". That might be one reason why Darian (and I guess Brian?) toyed with it and used those sound effects on BWPS.

I like ALL of the sections/tidbits/snippets/craziness that Brian recorded for "Heroes And Villains". So, because I want to blow the listener's mind, I hate to leave any of it off. Like many, I found "The Heroes And Villains Suite" on a music site where somebody patched together all of the segments. It's 10 minutes long but it's great. As you mentioned, it could be considered "overkill", but there's so much "SMiLE craziness" in it....I usually put it near the middle. As I mentioned before, I have used "H & V" as a closing song. I like the lyrics as a "recap" of SMiLE, and it ends kind of positively, with the line "I'm fit with the stuff to ride in the rough". And then I fade off with false barnyard. Haven't used it lately, though.

Oh man! I feel like H&V HAS to be 2nd (after prayer). The cantina version. Then you can move things along with Worms, then back to H&V (sections) followed by OMP/YAMS, Wondeful, CITFOTM and the usual Vigotone sort of order. Definately end with Surf's Up. And GV must start off Side Two. That's how BW did it with SS, and it sounds great having both sides start with a hit. I wanna be around goes After  fire. I never know what to do with WMT, though it's cool between GV and WC. I try to make a pretty concise album; 14 tracks, no cross-fades, just like a standard album in '66/67. H&V sections is the only real iffy thing...can't imagine how/if it would really go on an album, but think it's cool enough to be there. All the other stuff goes on a supplemental CD titled Dumb Angel.

Not to start a 23 page argument, but that's how I think SMiLE would've come out in 1967 anyway.

Do you make copies of your CD's and give 'em to people to listen to? Reactions?

Yeah I'm coming round to the no cross fade, standard album argument.

I don't make CDs for people just because I suspect none of my friends would really get into it, but maybe that's not fair. I have friends who are big Beach Boys fans but not that fussed about the Smile stuff so I wonder if a Smile obsession is a fairly idiosyncratic thing. I do burn my mixes onto CD but, as you mentioned John, I often find that as soon as it's burned I want to change the sequence and I was wasting too many CDs this way! Now I just play my mixes through an Ipod linked to the stereo - much cheaper.

I agree with Grillo that I wanna be Around should follow fire. This is the only instance in the tracks where I feel fairly positive that 2 tracks were designed to follow one another. That sequence just feels so right to me so I never alter it. The other 2 that inevitably get lumped together is Holidays and Windchimes (as on BWPS) as the ending of Holidays does suggest Windchimes should follow, although I'm not convinced that these two would have definitely been sequenced together.

I came around to that view maybe five years ago, when I asked Van Dyke how Smile would have been programmed, and he said single album, 12 songs, seperate tracks, no segues or cross fades... except within one track.

Heroes and Villains, right?! Presumably no cross-fades at all though?

Wrong. Strike one !

I've always thought that the only track that would have used cross fades was the Elements...4 relatively short (about a minute each) pieces edited together in a BWPS fashion. 

Home run !

I wonder why Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables listed seperately on Carl's memo then?  Assuming those are the air and earth sections.  Would "The Elements" have just been Fire and Da Da, or featured more missing pieces?

Vegetables wasn't the Earth section, according to a really wonderful guide to the Beach Boys music written by...hmm...what was his name again?

:lol

Fire was obviously MOLC and Water was probably Water Chant.

I don't think the Earth or Air sections are anything that were recorded or even necessarily written when Smile collapsed.

Of course, Frank Holmes seemed to be under the impression that "My Vegetables" was part of "The Elements" judging from his illustration for the "SMiLE" booklet. Also, for what it's worth, "Fire" is referred to as "The Elements - Part 1" during the original sessions.

FWIW, my idea of what comprised "The Elements" is:

Fire - "Mr's O'Leary's Fire"
Water - "Love To Sa Da Da"
Earth - "Fall Breaks..." (or an early version thereof)
Air - verse of "Country Air"

Based on mostly intuition, gut feeling and a few questions into the right ears.

Do you seriously think Country Air has some rooting in Smile or is that a bit of artistic license? Do you reckon Fall Breaks was once the Earth section?! Please elaborate if there is any evidence for these having a connection to the Elements, or at least which ones are based on 'questions into the right ears'!

I love that CountryAir idea, but isn't it pretty clear that Vegetables was the earth section? Frank Holmes must have gotten his ideas from what BW told him...Anyway, the elements ideas are great, but without the cross-fades. More like a GV type thing where there are hard edits. Just a guess though.

I find it interesting that so many people don't place "Heroes and Villains" in the beginning. I couldn't see it any other way. I've always been influenced by Brian's comments from the period about studying classical composers and being inspired by "Rhapsody in Blue":


That lone flutter horn playing the main musical theme from "Heroes and Villains" (and then hearing it emphasized again by horns and keyboards throughout the song) reminds me of that concept of introducing a melody/theme in the beginning, especially seeing how Brian placed it right before H&V in BWPS. This structural style is reinforced by most of the SMiLE songs being musically derivative of H&V in some way ("episodic yet integrated ... a range of highly contrasted moods, color, etc." describes the album for me). Additionally, lyrically, a lot of the cornerstone songs have their basis in H&V. The storyline of a girl caught in a rain of bullets yet still carrying on fits with how many of the songs (like "Wonderful" and "Cabinessence") seem to refer to an ambiguous girl, a symbolic sentiment representing America and its evolution. Leaving the city for a town in the wild west introduces the concept of expansion. The reference to children does as well (settlement), but it also segues into the concepts later touched on by "Surf's Up". The majority of the album, to me, is a series of variations on that opening theme. Brian obviously felt it was very important to the album, spending so much time on it. Releasing it as the first single from the album would've been a great way to introduce people to the radical nature of it.

I feel "Surf's Up" must be near the end of the album because it's the one "major" SMiLE song that really strikes out on its own from H&V, creating its own universal theme that stands independent from Americana. It's jarring near the beginning or end. Well, maybe one could figure out a way to make it work in the beginning, but that would be anticlimactic to me. "Child is Father of the Man" spins off that concept musically and lyrically, and so to me would have made a nice link from the H&V variations to "Surf's Up". The instrumental imbues feelings of something massive.

The whole "Elements", healthy living, and country themes tie into the "I'm in Great Shape" and "Barnyard" themes, both of which appear tied to the initial concepts of H&V (based on the demo, along with conjuring up ideas of expansion, settlement, and the frontier touched on by the song). Unfortunately, parts of those themes seemed to have been lost in the shuffle during the 66/67 sessions, though, and were never closed to being finished. That's what always made it difficult for me to configure those songs when I tried doing "fan edits". The way things were done in BWPS made it all feel like a haphazard, colliding collection of different themes, which I guess is what the original album was turning into once Brian lost focus.

Of course, I'm not trying to say that my views are correct or definite or anything like. Those are just my opinions on how the album was. I could be way off on how Brian imagined the album both in the 60s and today.

This is a great post. You make a good case for H&V being at the start!

CIFOTM fascinates me as the slow sections of the song (with the trumpet) do sound so expansive as you note. You have to wonder what melody/lyrics were to be sung over those parts (if you don't believe that the 04 melody is vintage). I agree that it feels as if it belongs with Surf's Up. It shares the same sense of gravity. For me, the incompletion of CIFOTM is the saddest casualty in the abortion of Smile.

Fire - obviously a given
Water - 75% a given
Earth - I asked someone who would probably know... they nodded, encouragingly
Air - the only known piece that fits the description of "Air" in the Priess book even vaguely is "Country Air". Plus they both have "Air" in the title.   ::)

Thanks Andrew. That's interesting to hear about the earth section. Bells intro (edit - I mean Bag Of Tricks) sounds like an early Fall Breaks - could this have been an early stab at the Earth?

Do you not agree with the theory that IWBA was to follow Fire? Also does your Fire consist of MOC/H&V intro, followed by Fire?

What is the Air description (I don't have the Priess book) - is it where Brian talks about a piano piece?

Am I right in thinking Andrew that you once said you'd been played something (by someone who might know) akin to Country Air in the context of it having been intnded as SMiLE's Air Element?

The sole source for this assumption is Carol Kaye. And you know how I (and doubtless the family of James Jamerson) feel about her track record regarding accuracy.


That's the one. Slim pickings, but until someone can wave an AFM sheet at me, I'm sticking to it.  ::)

Something like that.  :)

Two part question:

First, for "Dada", do you think it would've sounded like the version released on the boxed set? Without lyrics?

Second, I dug out Wild Honey to listen to "Country Air" again. Which verse do you think was used? 

Brian said Air was a piano instrumental and that "we never finished" it . . . since Country Air was finished, I would think Brian would have mentioned that . . . "we turned it into Country Air on Wild Honey" or something along those lines.  So IMO we still have nothing that meets the Preiss book description for Air.

Earth WAS Vegetables.  The Frank Holmes illustration makes that clear.  Brian says it was in the Preiss book (if Andrew's going to take Brian's comment about Air to make a conclusion about Country Air being part of the suite, shouldn't he take Brian's other comment at face value as well?).  The only question is, would Vegetables have stayed as the earth section in late 66 into April 67, when Vegetables became a separate "track" or title on the album (the December list) and then considered for a single in April?  We have no evidence Fall Breaks was considered the earth section, and we have an early version of Fall Breaks - it's called Bag of Tricks and has the same bass line as Fall Breaks.  It's on that January 3rd tape with various attempts at Heroes sections, including, at the end, All Day (an early version of Dada).  Could Brian have been working on Heroes AND The Elements on Jan 3rd?  All Day doesn't sound very elementy or watery to me, if that had been the intended destination for the song - and neither does  the title Bag of Tricks sound evocative of the earth.  Perrsonally I think he never got around to putting to tape the "Piano instrumental" Air or ever got around to replacing Vegetables as earth before SMile crashed and burned.

Was it finished though? If there was a plan to write lyrics for the verse, that wasn't implemented...

That quote always bothered me. Oh, I believe the quote is accurate; that's a typical one-sentence Brian answer.

What bothers me is that the interviewer didn't follow up on it. First, he gets an interview with Brian Wilson that is ON THE RECORD. Then, he gets him to answer a specific SMiLE question, and amazingly, it's in reference to the elements! Brian throws out a line that "we didn't finish it". And that's that. How about "How long was the piece?" or "Did you ever re-visit it for another track?" or "Did you record a demo of it?" or "Did it have a working title?" or, well, you can think of your own question. Maybe the interviewer did follow up with another question and Brian shrugged it off....And, you know what, it's a couple of DECADES later, and we still don't know anything more.

That's always bugged me too...Brian talking about Smile in the late 70's is amazing in itself, but after he actually gave a decent answer you'd think the reporter would follow up.  The answer is a revelation but about as vague as it gets.  That quote to me indicates that Air was something that we've probably heard in uncompleted form (DaDa anyone?).  If this is true then Wind Chimes is out, since it was presumably "finished" and was not just a piano piece. 

I still don't totally buy the Vega-Tables = Earth thing, just because it always seemed like its own song, not one section of a larger whole.  But the fact that the Holmes illustration suggests otherwise certainly does make you think.  If we go with that, then it seems like BWPS was pretty close to getting the original elements in the right places after all.  Who knows though, really?  I wish Brian had been as clear about the other elements as  he was about MOLC ("The Elements, Part 1, Fire").  Heck, maybe Brian never made up his mind about the other 3.  That would be par for the course during that era. Sadly it doesn't seem like Brian today would be much help, even if he was completely forthcoming.

Hey, this is all conjecture but I’ve always wondered… The January 3rd session does seem to cover a few tracks, as was mentioned. Fire was recorded as The Elements: Part One. On January 3rd you have a recording of Tag to Part One. I know Tag to Part One has that same C# thing going on as Heroes but… it is “a piano piece” and unfinished. Maybe this is air. I’ve never used it as such but it might work somehow.

Been Too Long

You never know. I've also wondered this. That tag sounds as if it was to accompany the Do A Lot part of Vegetables. Going on what somebody's already said - that Vegetables was too much a long song to be a component of The Elements, maybe a section of it was at one point the Earth Section. Perhaps Do A Lot with the groaning chant behind it (similar to the Swedish Frog section) could've been earth then Tag to part 1 was Air as a sort of variation on Earth. Who knows - it's not unthinkable. It's impossible to be sure on any of this I think.

I know this could be seen as Priore-style evasion, but as the quote is undated - unless Cam knows better -  is it not possible that the quote was pre-Wild Honey ? Try taking the choruses out
of "CA" - proves diddly, I know, but try it.


My feeling, shared by others far better qualified to muse on these matters, is that while "Vega-Tables" originally was a part of "The Elements", at some point in the fall of 1966, Brian spun it off as a seperate song. Even though the famous handwritten list is now known not to be by Brian, it is listed as a seperate track.


All I can say is that I asked someone who would very likely know if "Fall Breaks..." was derived from "Earth", and they smiled at me and nodded. And no, it wasn't Brian... and surely the fact that the vocal lines from "Fall Breaks..." fit so well into "Fire" counts for something. Unless he tells me so himself, i cannot believe that either Brian or darian had that idea off the top of their head.

But surely Fall Breaks is just a reworking of Fire - they're very similar, and so this why the vocal parts fit so easily over Fire in BWPS?

True, but maybe "Earth" & "Fire" were variations on the same theme (he says without a shred of proof to offer !).

@AGD: Was it VDP who told you so? Because I don't think that any of the other boys knew how the parts would be put into the album or concept. To tell you the truth, I am not even convinced that Van dyke knows all of this. My impression was that Brian was the only one who knew the "plan" but over the years didn't want to remember until he couldn't remember....

The interview with Brian for the Preiss book took place around the time of the M.I.U. album, according to one of the researchers on the book - and the interview was apparently very difficult to arrange and conduct, as would be typical of Brian at that time (and pretty much any time up to his recent concert resurgence/accessible Brian).

the early so called "demo" verson of Vegetables was not a demo version at all but a short version of the verses (the "cornucopia" version) and that version is certainly short enough to fit into an Elements suite, and not enough to stand on its own as a song.  It fits with two other things we know:  Van Dyke says he was at the recording of Vegetables (in Dom's book), but there's no evidence he was at any of the April sessions, so he must have been remembering the cornucopia session from fall 66, and two, the Holmes illustration indicating Vegetables was part of Elements in early fall 66.