The Smiley Smile Message Board

First a disclaimer. The following question has nothing to do with his opinions on Pet Sounds and SMiLE. It has to do with this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc4uwpR3zEw

The question is,

Is Mike Love the most uncool rock star ever in music?

Yes.

His early stage performances never fail to make me cringe. When you compare his stage persona to that of an early 60s Jagger or the Mop Tops you realise what a collossal gulf in charisma there was between Mike Love and the frontmen he was competing against. If only Dennis could've fronted that band!!

Hey, this is one of the GOOD Mike performances! Someone else summed the Beach Boys and made me LOL: "They got it all: Balding, fat, mad, funny-shaped heads". ;D 

Dennis indeed looked cooler than all the rest combined and I wish he were alive and releasing his 15th solo album, but with him as a frontman the band wouldn't have gone anywhere. Evidences: Miss America, Do You Wanna Dance and In the Back of My Mind. The fans often ask if the tracks in which Mike had a cold are sung by Dennis. Nuff said.

PS: even if he didn't have the most commercial voice, I wish every pre-Friends album had at least one Dennis' lead vocal. The Beach Boys palette was incredible.

notice in the footage how he puts the mic down in order to "get down with his bad self"

I agree but at the same time we have to rememebr that this kind of "good, clean fun" that Mike represented was what their music and upbringing was all about at that time, so in that way Mike was probably the perfect frontman for the Beach Boys, not for Rock'n'Roll. I think he was good and even great in the "It's ok"-TV-special and also did an unbelievable Mick Jagger in '75 (probably before that too). It's funny that after the 70s, he's gone back to the same moves he used in the 60s and still does them now.

That "uncool" guy wrote some of the coolest lyrics to what might be the greatest "fast" song (I Get Around) in the Beach Boys' catalogue.

Great. Yet another pointless exercise in criticizing Mike Love. This is so tiresome.  Sometimes I think I'm still reading the blueboard. As for Mick Jagger, also an irrelevant comparison.  Different style, different music, different personality, different aim, and  I'm not sure what makes his silly prancing around and off-key "singing" artistically superior to anything, anyway.  A friend of mine who has a led a band for the last 20 years told me one time, and I believe it, that the ones who criticize the most are the same ones who couldn't last a minute in the business if their lives depended in it.  It's like they wake up in the morning just itching to find something or someone else to ridicule. Get a life.  Mike Love is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and we're not. Time to accept it and move on. 

I thought Brian wrote most of those lyrics, with the exception of the "round, round, get around" part. I could be remembering wrong. Anyway, minor point.
I guess it's hard to know what to do with yourself when you aren't holding an instrument. Michael Stipe, to me, is an example of a cool frontman, but I think he's a natural mover. Nothing looks staged with him.

Thank god for that, or we wouldn't have the great footage of his ran--another fine moment captured for posterity.

To me, that rant seals his fate as a cool front man.  It takes a man with very cool-front-man-sized balls to give the figurative bird to rock-and-roll's establishment at the very symbol of it's establishment.  Sort of like going to the Vatican to be installed as a Cardinal only to insult the pope...

I have a life and my life is bashing Mike Love Goddammit.

jk

I asked a general question to get general opinions. If you feel that Mike Love is not "un-cool" then fine. I just saw that footage and it kind of made me cringe. I do not  blame ML for the collapse of the SMiLE project. That rests solely on Brian. I do however acknowledge that he did pour gasoline on the flame. I also fully acknowledge his vocal contributions to the group. I was just making a comment on his stage mannerisms and wanted to hear your opinions.

And you heard mine.  I have a tiny bit less problem with someone asking a question like this, even though I know where it's headed, than I do with the ones who immediately shout YES, like they've just been waiting for the chance, and then here we go again, with the same old stuff.

Yes, his RRHF rant was pretty silly. Luckily Bob Dylan was able to break the tension a bit with his "I'm glad he never got to me" line.

I've tried to have a better life than bashing people.  Seems that's a pretty poor way to live.

It's hard to judge Mike's contribution to the band.  He was staggeringly influential in establishing the popularity of the group (Lead vocalist and co-writer on most songs), had a waning influence (Today, SD&SN, Pet Sounds) and became largely a hang-up and embarrassment (Whatever he did during Smile, TM Shaman Crap, Shiny Gold Vests, R&R HOF, the list goes on). 

Personally, I think the stage mannerisms in the video are more appropriate for the time and less of an embarrassment than the stuff with him wearing a robe with a foot long beard banging a tambourine.  Try explaining that to your friends.  :P

Sure he's uncool, but he wasn't trying to be cool.. he's just goofing around, being an entertaining frontman.

how do you know? what if he was trying to be cool?

Not even close.

Two words - Cliff. Richard.

Bruce had the best line that day, when he went over to a table of industry bigshots (I think Ahmet Ertegun was one of them) and said "We're finished in this business, right ?"

Elton came a close second  by faking a hissy fit and bitching "why didn't he mention ME ?"  :)

Hey man I'm sorry but I'm sure Mike Love can take my criticisms on the chin, seeing as he's in the rock n Roll Hall of Fame an all. And no need to diss jagger in your response - What would your friend from a band make of that, hey? I think we just all need to be a lot more respectful of these ageing rockstars because I suspect they're a pretty sensitive breed. Especially when it comes to their dance moves.

I actually think that was the only time he looked like he fitted in with the band. He looked like a bit of a dork, sure, but that big beard suited his balding head, and it was a look that was all him - no-one else looked like that, it was of the time, and it was TM-based. It went a long way to establishing his own personal identity.

I don't really think Denny would have had the onstage charisma to front the band. He seems kinda wooden during the "Never Learn Not To Love" clip, and that was his big chance, really, being filmed during the era of the emerging frontmen.

Good point, John. And that is why I hesitate to take shots at Mike's appearance and on stage persona.

There is this quote by Marilyn Wilson in the IJWMFTT documentary, that I can't get out of my head. She is talking about the guys questioning/doubting Brian's musical direction/leadership in the late 60's and she says, as if Brian was talking, "Hey, if you guys can do better, here, you do it."

To me, that quote can be used in a lot of areas within The Beach Boys. But with Mike Love's stage motions/dancing/MCing/patter with audience, etc.,  Mike could easily say to the other guys, "Hey, if any of you can do better, go ahead, YOU try it." It's one thing to croak out a song or two, or stand and dance on top of a piano, or wave to the crowd occasionally, or even just to say, "Thank you very, very, very, very, very much for coming tonight." But it does take some guts and imagination to do what Mike Love did/does. Carl, Dennis, and Al couldn't do it. And if you look at Brian's solo shows, he can't do it either. The FACT is, the overwhelming majority of fans at a Beach Boys' concert enjoy Mike Loves' schtick. Is that how you spell schtick?

No. It's S-H-I-T.

Does anyone know if he still does the motions to "Fun, Fun, Fun" (ie the whipping during the "chariot race" line, turning on the imaginary radio, acting like a bird during "wild goose chase")? That would just be hillarious to see, especially because Mike's facial hair as of late makes him look like a mean old man.

I'm not sure about all those gestures (because Fun Fun Fun is usually the last song, and my mind is on other things at that point...like where the backstage entrance is...do I have all my stuff, etc.) but I'm pretty sure that he still does the thing where he picks up the mic stand and pretends he's driving it.  I do remember seeing the whipping as late as the mid 90's, although the gesture was not nearly as exaggerated.

Would anyone care to discuss Brian's odd hand gestures in his stage act?  It must be a family trait.  Or maybe Brian's moves are proof that imitation is not always the sincerest form of flattery.  To Brian's credit, at least he doesn't tell sometimes-odd long stories before songs; he keeps his sometimes-odd comments short.

I guess I always look at Brian's gestures differently because of his history of stage fright and just generally not wanting to be there. It's like he's doing it to relax himself, whereas Mike does it to entertain or look cool. Or maybe both of them do it because they're not playing instruments and they don't know what else to do.

I'm reliably informed that, early in his solo touring career, Brian was told to do something with his hands, as opposed to just sitting there and reading the autocues (check out the 1998 Lake Charles show - cigar store Indian, anyone ?). Don't think them as told him expected him to do what he's been doing ever since. I cherish an NME review from 2002 that said (I paraphrase slightly) "Brian didn't so much sing "Surf's Up" as semaphore it". I guess we're all used (inured ?) to it, but for newcomers it can be hilarious, or disturbing. Sometimes both.

I notice Paul Simon does something similar!

Glad you posted that, as I remember that Lake Charles show and he looked stiff. Same as the Farm Aid performace.

Just be thankful that he hasn't tried dancing like he did when he performed with Deana Carter that same year!

Sometimes it looks like he's waving his hands at imaginary mosquitos.

Most rock musicians looked in 1964 pretty square looking at it today. Even the Beatles. All the BBs except Dennis, looked pretty sqare. Even Brian.

It could be worse. Its at least fun to watch and laugh  :lol

I don't think the Beatles looked square. Have you watched that early footage of them on the Ed Sullivan shows? They look energetic and incredibly charismatic and not self conscious at all. Just my opinion and I guess it's not an entirley fair comparison but I would never say the Beatles looked square. Or the Rolling Stones from the same time, or Dylan. There's something about those performers which just doesn't date for me. I love the Beach Boys just the way they were, Mike Love and all, but image wise they just weren't in the same league and it was no wonder they didn't naturally translate to a hipper audience in the late 60s, however progressive Brian's music was.

Just my opinion and I guess it all depends on your definition of square though.

The most uncool?  perhaps not.

The most latently homosexual?  DEFINITELY.

I firmly believe that Brian is at his best as a performer with a bass.  Even if he's not playing it a whole lot, he just seems to have more to do and get more into it.  If you watch some mid 70s concerts, sometimes he would get too into it.  But inasmuchaswhich, he just has more energy as an onstage bassist than when you sit him behind a piano.  Plus, it's fun to hear him play ultra-simplified versions of the original, great basslines he wrote.

There's my two cents.  No more keyboard Brian, you and Lizik are holding down the low end.

I agree with you, Josh. When Brian straps on the bass to perform, the years just fall off his shoulders -- it's really amazing.

And I agree with both of you.  When he straps that Fender bass he is transformed and starts moving around with uncommon grace and spring in his step.  Like Tiger Woods with his 58-bent- to-56 degree wedge in his hands.  He is in control of the situation.  It's remarkable.     



I don't know about that.  I  feel that actually most musicians back then looked relatively natural and focused on the music.  Can you can say the same in 2007?  I'll grant you that such things as those striped shirts and the Beatle's collarless jackets look pretty dated.  They were seriously ancient in 1965!  But at least you can take them off unlike some of severe tattoos and piercings of today. 

 

I agree to a part. Brian also wanted to play bass when he had his comeback in the 70s, but Carl thought it would be better to sit him down at the piano.
But I also like to see Brian at the keys as long as his handmovings are not to embarrassing

Yeah... I just wish with every fiber of my being that it was on any other song than "Barbara fucking Ann".

at the 10/23/04 show in Houston, he strapped on the bass for Surfin Usa and Fun Fun Fun also.. Funny moment...he actually took the bass up like it was a rifle and pretended to shoot various bandmates.

I agree that the Beatles had a much better stage presence then the BBs.  However, I believe that the Beatles pre-Rubber Soul doesn't seem to stand as well as the BBs pre Pet Sounds. But that's an intirely different argument.

I think the "too into it" of the 70's concerts may have more to do with mass amounts of cocaine than sheer enjoyment!

That clip really isn't Mike's worst.

I think the Mick and Mike thing IS valid though Mick obviously is a better businessman. Both weren't half as cool as the Brian's in their group or half as talented. They would like to think they were the brains but at least at the start it was the Brian's. Mick and Mike both added a LOT to their group's but weren't as important as other bandmates in some musical respects. Both were the mouthpiece and both wrote good lyrics. I like both, but I always laugh at their dancing. Affectionately really though. But they ARE dorks and I mean that in a fond way. That's why I like them really.

Let's just say if Brian Jones had not died I think Mike and Mick would be at about the same level of renown. Mick and Keith did great work in the 60s but Brian Jones defined the band as much as Brian Wilson did for the Beach Boys. They came into their own (Keith especially) only after Brian Jones began to decline. There were differences B. Wilson was a unique songwriter B. Jones a unique musician. Who knows what he would have done once he and the Stones parted. Had Brian Wilson died in 1969 would he be remembered as well today? Would Mike have as effectively written him out of history? Thank god we don't know but I think Mike and Brian were always a bit closer then Mick and Brian. Again things worked out the way they did, for better (in the Beach Boys case) or worse (in the Stones), for a reason.

How did things work out for the better in the Beach Boys?

Also, the Rolling Stones music got a lot better in the late 60's and early 70's AFTER Brian Jones left the group. Enough with all the phony Beatles/pop music posturing and back to real R&B.  When Brian Jones was with the group it seemed the Stones were trying too hard to copy the Beatles and the Kinks. Their two best albums are Sticky Fingers and Exile on Main Street which came out a few years after Brian Jones died.

Funnily enough, I had this argument on my own site after I wrote an article about Between The Buttons. I'm afraid I'm a defender of Jones, but I'd like to think a realistic one, rather than copy-and-paste, I'll just present the argument, which has points similar to yours about STICKY and EXILE and my "rebuttal": http://apokolips.x47.net/topic/974.0.html (http://apokolips.x47.net/topic/974.0.html)
You'll need to scroll down a little.

I'm a Sixties Stones nut. I spent ages trying to compile track-by-track personnel listings, too.

Put me down as a bit of a fan for Mike on stage over the years. Keep in mind he doesn't play a instrument, and is quite tall so have a think about what kind of profile he could have used. I think he used a combination of Chuck Berry plus a host of other black singers when settling on his stage movements.
Also the style of music. The Stones have the dark image so its black and leather for Mick. The Beach Boys it was summer so what to do? Sure Mike looked odd in that Turban at the time, Wembly 74, the UK was going through a glam rock phase ie Bowie. The Hobo look think The Band. The Beanie from the 70s, Marvin Gaye.
Another tall muso is Mick Fleetword. Some of his movements and looks are downright spooky.
Of course the last 10 years I'm surprised Mike doesn't take to the stage in a golf-cart. My posts about him looking like Bob Hope are on this board somewhere. :o

Re Brian's bass playing-- There's a great moment from the Radio City tribute where Brian is playing bass on that last song (either Fun, Fun, Fun or Barbara Ann). All the stars of the show are singing and dancing on stage, and Brian gets this shy grin on his face as he looks down at his left hand that looks almost exactly as he looked on stage in 1964.  He looks very relaxed and in control (regardless of whether he's actually playing or not).

I couldn't agree less with you on that one. To me it seems more like what white middle-class people used to do when they heard said black R'n'B-groups and Rock'n'Roll

I don't know what everybody hates about the turban. I think around that time Mike looked really cool.

 
Brian Wilson didn't die is what I meant
Hey I like their 70s music a lot but think of it almost as a different group.You can like it better, it's all taste. However The Kinks came along after them and have cited Brian and the Stones as a great influence. I think cuturely the Stones meant a lot more to sixties fashion (look at the Byrds and Yardbirds for Brian lookalikes) and to the mores of the era. The Stones were part of the 70s scene but it wasn't defined by them. Brian was one of the first white Blues players and one of the best. Mick and Keith without Brian's direction may have ended up (Mick especally) with different fates. Mick was a serious student whom Brian had to convince into leaving school. Keith who knows... but the fact remains that most of their hits were with Brian and he formed the group with Ian Stewart.

Read your defence and liked it. I think it plus what I added about Brian's role in forming the group are a good defense. One thing though Brian does have his defenders personality wise. Keith and Ian Stewart obviously aren't impartial when it comes to facts on him. Yet even they sometimes said great things about him. Mick too.

Thanks. Just like any band, it's hard for commentators to go over the top defending their favourite band member, and denigrating his opponent...

I never said he was good at it :lol

But over the years I saw a bit of Chuck, James, Camp Little Richard and from the early 80s, a little bit of the Temps.

On Mike's behalf, I think he had the best look in the band from 69-73. I loved the long beard and robe thing. There is something about him that draws my attention when they played live. Even if he was singing back up and playing the tamborine or attempting to play the woowoo machine for GV.