The Smiley Smile Message Board

Suppose that the Beach Boys never would have excisted as a group and that all the members would've been solo artists in the early 60s... Who would've made it?

I think Brian would've been succesful on his own as well. Until Smile he didn't really need anyone else.

Bruce probably could have been a fairly succesful solo artist in the 60s. He once said that being in the Beach Boys made him passive as a songwriter, that probably wouldn't have happened if he didn't join and I'm sure he would've had a couple of hits on his own.

I'm not sure about Dennis. Sure he turned into a good songwriter, but he was never able to write hits. And I don't think many people would've enjoyed his early 60s singing voice for the duration of an entire concert or album.

I'm also not sure about Carl. He couldn't write hits either. And besides that, I don't think a chubby guy like Carl would have been a teen idol in the 60s if he would've been a solo artist.

I think Al and Mike would never have made it on their own. Which certainly doesn't mean they're not talented musicians, I just don't think we would ever have heard of them if it wasn't for the Wilsons.

Who knows about Mike, Dennis, Carl and Al? Bruce wasn't a member of a group led by Brian Wilson till 1965, which moved him to develop as a producer and songwriter. Dave Marks too worked his chops far beyond what he would have if he hadn't left the group.

Now Brian... On his own, he could have quit if success hadn'y come right away like it happened with the Beach Boys. And he would probably have had a breakdown just after getting married, touring or no touring. The guy had issues that would chase him forever no matter what. Smile being shelved was just one more of those.

Let me start this off by saying I'm a HUGE, HUGE fan of Brian and think he is among the greatest artists of our time...as a composer, arranger, producer he is nearly unequaled in the history of pop. Without a doubt the most original American artist ever. But now some reality. You are completely fooling yourself if you think Brian Wilson would have 'made it' without the Beach Boys as his vehicle to fame. The phenomenon of the Beach Boys gave Brian all of his cache, without it no one would have cared who he was. The particular elements that gelled into the BB's were essential to Brian finding his voice. Brian was an introvert. He needed Dennis for his connection to the culture. He needed Mike to put it across. He needed Carl and Al and David to add musicality and diverse influences to the pallette. If the BB's hadn't gone in a teen friendly direction in '62 they more than likely would never have been a hit. Brian wasn't first in line to push the thing into an electric direction. He was thinking Four Freshmen, Mike was thinking Coasters, together they thought Everly Brothers, Al was thinking Kingston Trio, Carl and David were thinking Chuck Berry, Dick Dale, Dennis was yelling about Surfing, Cars and Girls. Brian took all of that and made it work. Alone he never would have found it. You are really missing something fundamentally important to Brian's story if you think he didn't need anyone until SMILE. In fact you're nearly missing everything. Every element that made up the BB's was crucial. Finding huge fame and all that power was a major long shot and Brian isn't even close to the only reason they pulled it off. He's the biggest reason, the most important reason. but genius doesn't exist in a vacuum. without Surfin Safari, Surfin USA, Little Deuce Coupe, Surfer Girl, Fun, Fun, Fun and I Get Around etc...No one would have ever heard or cared about Pet sounds and Smile. That's the truth.

What about Murry?  Don't you guys think he was important in the early days?

Absolutely. Huge. Crucial.

Well said Jon!


I have great respect for Murry in spite of all the negative lore.  It occurs to me that it was unusual for a kid in 1963 (even one with some hit singles) to demand the right to produce his own records and go outside the record company and use whatever studios he wanted.  I suspect that it wasn't Brian that put his nose in the record company execs face.  Jon was it Murry that secured these rights for his son?     

Yes it was essentially Murry who applied the pressure, but i think he thought he was securing the rights for himself in a sense. Brian was the one with the insight that Western would give the BB's the sound "he" wanted, unlike the Capitol facility. But beyond that Murry and Brian battled each other in the studio for control of the BB's "sound", Brian had won that battle by the end of '63. Despite the inner friction...Murry was most important in that he never took a back seat to anyone, was never intimidated, never lost focus, and made the BB's everybody's priority. In the Lost Beach Boy book we clearly illustrate that Murry made the BB's a priority for Brian to a degree that went beyond what was probably good for Brian. Brian loved the creative process but his enthusiasm for the BB's ended there. Carl on the other hand was totally on Murry's "team". He knew the BB's had all gotten very lucky and even as a teenager he drove the guys in a quieter, yet equally focused way. I love the characters in this story!!

No I didn't, I'm affraid you got me wrong here. I didn't mean to say that Brian could've done what the Beach Boys did on his own. Of course that's nonsense. My question was: if Carl, Dennis, Mike and Al would never have been born, would Brian have been able to make it as a solo artist? Of course he never would've reached the same level as the Beach Boys, but imagine Brian on his own in 1962 - would he have been succesful as a solo artist if he tried? He had the voice, he knew how to write a hit song, he had his dad to kick his ass, I think that if Brian would've been on his own from the start he wouldn't have been the Brian Wilson as we know him now, but I do think he would've left his mark on the music industry. And I'm not sure that same thing goes for the others. That was my point, sorry if that was unclear (I will once again account it to the fact that English isn't my first language  ;D).

You initiated a great topic. I don't think any of the BB's would have been anything close to what they are/were. Bruce would have had a career in music because he was already there. Brian may have gotten lucky again or independently of the BB's... who knows? He sure had a BIG gift. He had his brothers and dad to help him too. Carl was going to be good and consistent at whatever he did. Dennis was a social savant. He could have been president, or an actor, or a bum. probably the latter. He too had a BIG gift. Mike had a calculating sense...might have been a good evangelical preacher or snake oil salesmen. Al might have made a good 10th grade social studies teacher who sang in a folk group on the side. Dave would have been a jazz musician either way, and maybe a happier one if he hadn't been a Beach Boy.

I think Brian could have made it, just not with the same sound as the BB.  The thing with Brian though is that he really needed a group to provide harmony for his songs.  I don't think Brian could have ever written solo songs only to be sung by him.  He was obsessed with harmony, and they probably would have been a part of his music regardless of whether or not he was a BB.  So I think if he had been able to find another group, he could have been successful.  Of course like Jon said, Murry's motivation was what really propelled Brian into being the hitmaker he became.  Without that, it's hard to say what might have happened to Brian.  No matter what, I think he would have found a way to become involved in the music business, maybe as a producer for other acts or just writing songs with others. 

Jon is right, this is a really interesting and great topic!

I don't think Brian would have been a successful solo act.  His voice, outside of his falsetto, was not that great.  A good voice, but not as commercial as Mike Love's or Carl's.  Carl's voice was actually similar to Brians, but had a prettiness that Brian's natural voice lacked.  As great as Brian's falsetto was, a falsetto voice only really works in the context of a vocal group.  His lack of confidence as a performer is also life-long.  He looks uncomfortable in almost all his Beach Boys TV appearances.  Some of his outside production work is also essentially solo work (such as the Survivors), and none of those were hits.  I've read that it was because Murry sabotaged any chance they would get airplay, but to my ears, they are inferior to Brian's work with the Boys, mostly because they lack the harmonies of the Beach Boys. 

Bruce has a songwriting, recording and producing career that pre-dates not only The Beach Boys but also The Pendletones and very probably Carl & The Passions. He was using an 8-track recorder a good year before Brian was (in fact it was very likely at Bruce's urging that Brian used the Columbia console).

This is interesting.

I believe there is no way any of them would have individually ended up sounding anything like the Beach Boys. But I do believe that Brian might have used other people in the way he ended up using them to make some other interesting and great music. He was too good a musician not to find an outlet. Of course, the public is fickle, and it might not have caught on. But I believe he would have brought his interesting melodic and harmonic sense--not to mention production and arranging skills--to something good.

Bruce had and could have continued a career (if not a lucrative one) as a player and producer.

I severely doubt any of the others could have been successful solo artists without being a part of something else, bigger, first. All talented musicians, but lacking anything that would have allowed them that big break.

I think Brian would've had a good shot at a career in music mainly because of WHERE he lived.

Brian lived near L.A., where there were many recording studios. I think Brian would've gravitated there as a session musician, session singer, engineer, producer, or songwriter.

Brian's stage fright and introverted personality might've prevented him from being a live performer; he would've been more comfortable behind the scenes.

If Brian would've ended up as a "studio rat", I could see Carl literally following in Brian's footsteps because Carl obviously had the talent. Actually, that is what happened in the Beach Boys - Carl following in Brian's footsteps...

I think Brian would have been a songwriter/producer who would have played piano and sung background on the records of people he produced. Wasn't he trying to move in that direction somewhat in the early 60s anyway? Plus, he has said he believes he is a better background singer than lead singer. 

I actually think your post was pretty right-on...but as for the part I quoted, let's be honest--what HASN'T Brian said at one time or another?

I think Brian, Carl, and Bruce would all have had careers in music, no matter what. Carl and Bruce would have been in-demand studio guys, if they didn't have road careers as well. I've often wondered if Brian might have headed towards a soundtrack career, in addition to producing and writing. I'd like to think Al would have had a musical career, as well -- his voice is too good to waste.

Truth is, if the Beach Boys had never existed, I wouldn't be on these message boards. :lol

True, but I can see where he's coming from there. As has been pointed out on this thread, Brian did not have as compelling a lead voice as Carl or Mike. It doesn't mean his voice wasn't good (sometimes great, and I personally prefer it to Mike's by a country mile), but maybe it's not a natural lead voice. And he really is a great background singer.

I know. I was just having a little fun.  ;)

Well, okay.  :)  Didn't he talk about becoming a pro baseball player at some point in the 70s, or am I just making that up? I have this memory of reading a quote: "I really think I could make it in to the Majors" or some BS like that.

Yeah in the Endless Harmony bio-pic of the band they talked about how Brian was good at baseball in highschool (?) Dont know about him talking about it in the '70s

In a Oui magazine interview, about late 1977-early '78, Brian "joked" about "maybe going out for major baseball" when asked about his earlier love of the game.  He talked about his getting healthy in '76 and all that.  Or maybe he wsn't "joking".  Who knew wi.th Brian - hard to tell if he was kidding, serious, deluded or just the still-reigning master of the great put-on when he came up with this stuff.

First of all, life wouldn't have been a tenth as much fun growing up in Northern California in the sixties like I did.

Seems like we've been down this road before as to what else the Boys might have done with their lives.  Brian - probably an award winning writer/arranger/producer most of all.  Nothing new there. Dennis,  who knows.  No high school diploma, no life direction. Would his music talent have even sufaced, much less developed? Not without Brian, I think. Could have been pretty rough for Denny, or, like so many, his life could have blossomed after a ragged start. Carl, maybe those guitar lessons with a Walker Brother might have got him into a group.  He told his gym teacher that "all he wanted to do ws learn how  to play this guitar". If that didn't pan out (we've all had THAT dream), like a poster said, he would have been good in one career or another because of his character and personality. Mike, like Dennis and Carl an indifferent (a civil term for "poor") student and no other career goals, would he ever have had the opportunity to sing without The Group?  Probably not.  Sheet metal for Mike without some unforseen life change coming down the pike.  Maybe a hobby-band singing doo-wop but not the Beach Boys renamed. And, since I actually AM a good evangelical minister who just got back from Bible study at his church, we'll leave the previously-posted snake oil salesman comment aside  = :  ). I'm sure Jon wasn't lumping tht two together! :) Al - remember, he was already forming groups and was a decent musician in his own right.  He was also major college material with an original goal of dental school.  Maybe not dentistry or 10th grade social studies with a weekend folk gig as previously offered, but something of a standard career with music quite possibly part of that.  Bruce had the career going before he even met the Boys.  Would he have developed that even more if he hadn't got sidetrackd, so to speak, with a major group gig? Strong chance of it. And David, at some point would more than likely followed his musical dream, even if the Beach Boys hadn't opened up that opportunity. Would it have been the same?  Of course not, and there is simply no over-estimating Brian's role in all this.  Without him . . . . . . .

But for us, it would have been awful (even if we never knew what we were missing)

Yes, Bruce did have a career before he was in the Beach Boys.. of making music that sounded like Beach Boys music.. his pre-BBs career was just ripping off Brian and Mike's surfing and car songs. He probably would've still been in music, but what would it have sounded like?

Or because he had to save his best songs and ideas for the Beach Boys and his outside projects got all the leftovers. And why the Survivors single didn't do anything is a mystery to me. I could name several early BB hits that are in my opinion not nearly as good as Pamela Jean.

That's a good question.  My point was that he was already in the business to some degree  by the time the Boys hit the scene full force - at least he had a career to develop.  Also, he was certainly not the only one capitalizing on the current musical crazes. Who can say if his career would have developed more into song writing, arranging, producing, performing, whatever, but he did have a career in the business to work with. He'd be the last to deny that getting asked to replace Brian didn't hurt that at all. He probably would have been the most successful of them in the business world as well, the music profession music aside, probably carrying around a solid college degree or two.

Care to explain how Bruce's early career ripped off Brian & Mike's surfin & car songs before they were even recorded ? Do you actually know anything about Bruce aside from the BB and Rip Chords ? Very obviously not.

Try reading my post properly - Bruce's first single was released in June 1959. In 1960 he produced four singles and an album (most of which he also co-wrote) for Ron Holden on Donna (and another single in March 1961).

This is the kind of ignorance I'd expect on the BlueBoard, not here.

Here's one possible reason:

Capitol 5102 - Pamela Jean, 1/6/64

Capitol 5112 - I Wanna Hold Your Hand, 1/13/64

Bruce had a career before the Beach Boys even existed. He was also a backup musician on records like "La bamba" and "To know him is to love him". I don't think he would have had a solo-hit, but be a big guy in a company and produce some stuff. "I write the songs" would probably be the same it is today.


EDIT: Well, AGD made it clear before I had read all this and written my answer out.

Exactly.  I was careful with dates and product in my post because I didn't have the info in front of me, but Bruce was in the studio  and on records pretty early on, before Brian - not a criticism, just an important fact in the discussion. All those years of piano lessons didn't hinder him too much, either. Of course, as AGD points out, it would be hard to get this past the Blueboard unbloodied.

Bruce played on La Bamba?! I never knew that. WHat did he play on that track?

AFAIK drums

He didn't. I asked him, and he said he has no idea how that one got started. Didn't play on "To Know Him..." either, but did play on Sandy Nelson's "Teen Beat " (9/59)

Ok, I apologize then. But I was quite sure that he said that he played on them on BBBritain one time.  Anyway, I guee AGD will know about this better than me....

The musicians on Valens' recordings were the cream of the session cats - proto-Wrecking Crew.

Speaking of Valens...there is a very direct connection between him and the BB's...actually between Valens and Carl and David. We talk about it in the upcoming Lost Beach Boy book. Oh yeah and Bruce wasn't the only future Beach Boy with studio experience in '59. Dave recorded an original song with John Maus/Walker and Richie Podolor at a major studio that same year.

I'll stand by my earlier thumbnails.
Brian - a decent chance at music success, once he's in with a hit he's in for good.
Mike - salesman, and a good one.
Dennis - fundamental cool guy, either a big success, or a bum, impregnates many pretty girls either way.
Carl- good and steady at whatever he chooses.
Al - decent high school teacher, definitely not an intellectual, music on the side, solid family guy.
Bruce - already an L.A. music business insider, already wealthy, BB's were just a nice bonus for him.
David - guitar player for life.

Hows the view from up on that high horse?

Purty good... purty good.  :)

this is a maudlin thread.

Hmmm, wow this is a big question. This is like the equivalent of what if palm trees never grew in California. Goodness what a weird world it would have been.

Brian - A lot of you I see put music would still be his major thing. I kind of agree with everyone but I don't think it would have been the center of his life. If nothing happened, he probably would have gotten discouraged. I could see him like a psychologist. Funny because my old psychologist was in a jazz band on the side but thats another story...

Bruce - Session guy. Probably singing backup for people and making a nice living doing that.

Carl - This kid could have done anything and he would've been fine. Teacher or one of the guys on the help hotline.

Dennis - I think if he got his act together he could've become an executive of a big company. Once he was into something, he really was. I think his downfall would've been women though.

Al - Dentist. End of story.

Mike - Owning gas companies.  :lol

Really? Dennis Wilson would be pretty much the last person on earth that I could imagine as a businessman...

Yes I do, in fact. His solo albums. The Hot Doggers. The Vettes. The Sidewalk Surfers. Bob Sled and the Toboggans. The Kustom Kings. Bruce and Terry.

Yes, I know that before the Beach Boys became popular Bruce didn't copy their style, but can you really tell me that songs like "Fun Last Summer", "Here We Go (The Surfer Boys Are Going Skiing)" aren't heavily Beach Boys influenced? That a number of his songs don't include the phrase "fuel-injected engine" or something similar? That "456 Stingray" isn't a COMPLETE RIPOFF OF 409?!

I'll admit I'm a pretty ignorant person, but not in this instance.

The fact that Bruce was a recording artist before the BB doesn't mean it's impossible that he was heavily influenced by them. Jan & Dean predated the BB as well, but it's obvious that they tried hard to sound like the BB later on.

If I may quote you exactly:

"Yes, Bruce did have a career before he was in the Beach Boys.. of making music that sounded like Beach Boys music.. his pre-BBs career was just ripping off Brian and Mike's surfing and car songs."

Like I asked, how could he base his career 1959-61 on ripping off songs that hadn't been written yet by a band that hadn't been formed ?  You made an very unwise generalisation. The Ron Holden stuff might not be very good, but it doesn't sound anything like the BB, or surf/car songs, as you've claimed. Nor, for that matter, does the early Rip Chords material, or later Bruce & Terry songs.

Words are are powerful weapons, but not if used carelessly.

Later on.  8)

Bruce probably had hidden microphones in the Wilson house... So in fact it wasn't Spector who was spying on Brian, but Bruce!  >:( ;D

Yes, but what I meant was that Bruce (in theory) could've had a carreer of making music that sounded like the Beach Boys. Not his entire carreer, but still 2 1/2 years of it.

Of course... how could I have missed something so obvious. ?  ::)

J&D predated the BB but they did copy them... So the fact that Bruce's first recordings predated those of the BB doesn't prove that he never copied the Beach Boys' music... Right?

Regardless of when it was done, IMHO Bruce's recordings were crap. Then again, it's probably my bias against pre-64 rock showing.

Carry on.

If each of the Beach Boys were born alone this would be my prediction of them.

1. Brian-I think music would always be a part of his life. And so would sports. I believe that it was Mike that pushed him to do music for money. I think Brian would've been a happier person if he never became a celebrate. He probably would've written some songs and played them for his family and friends for free. I don't think he would've ever gotten into drugs and he would end up with a regular job somewhere making about $40k a year.

2. Dennis-I think that his inspiration to make music was 99% from Brian. So I don't think he would've ever written a single song in his life.  But being a cut up and rebal before the BBs began he probably would've become a hippy in the late 60s and done drugs. But he probably would straighten up in the mid 70s and lived a normal life thereafter.

3. Carl-he had taken guitar lessons and had a good voice. Who knows, he might have taken a crack at song writing and starting a band himself around 1964 inspired greatly by the Beatles like millions of other kids. His style would've been more of the 'So Tough' or 'Holland' material. Without the Brian Wilson influence he probably wouldn't have done stuff like FF or LPR.  I think he would've been good and maybe a one hit wonder but lack creativity to last longer then a few years. He probably would scrape through the hippy scene a couple years, then lead a normal life.

4. Mike-I think that he had a good stage presence as a lead singer in the early 60s. He would probably try to start a band with one of his 'talented' friends. If his friends had any talent at all, they might have a couple of oldies hits and dissapeared.  He would then get a job in a magazine or something and write every article on his one or two top 40 hits his group had in 1963.

5. Al-He would've been a dentist.

6. Bruce-He was in music already and probably would continue to be. I think that he has a good taste and would've been inspired by another great song writer like Brian. Maybe Phil Spector, Bob Dylan, the Beatles, etc.  I think his solo career would've been much stronger without the BBs!!

Of course these are all just big fairy tales in my own head. But I think they would be something like this.

I also agree with Al as a dentist. Mike would be a Realtor IMO. Dennis, Carl and Dave I couldn't say.

Brian is a interesting one. I am thinking of some of his early leads, non surf or car, minus the others singing harmony (think Warmth Of The Sun) and his voice may have had a novelty to it in a way like Gene Pitney or Orbison. For that reason I go for a few hits then nothing. A little side note in the music business with worse decline than he did or a complete recovery because he would not have had the pressure from bandmates.

A question. In the EH doco Al says he had seen Brian and Carl " in concert" (I think are the words) prior to the BBs. What would that have been?

Probably when they performed in school.

I put the question to David Marks through Carrie above. Here's her/ his reply.


I asked him and David said he would be doing something with music regardless.  He wrote and recorded his first original song 2 - 2 1/2 years before Surfin' so the Beach Boys didn't put David on the musical path...but they did accelerate him down it.  Architecture is the only thing he said he could see himself doing besides music.

As for Brian, he said "God didn't put all that music inside of Brian for it not to come out.  He would have found some why to express himself even if he didn't have the Beach Boys.  How successful it would have been is another story."  He went on to say that if Brian didn't make it as a songwriter or engineer/producer, he probably would have been the Music teacher or P.E. Coach at Hawthorne High.

He said Mike would be doing something public - sales or maybe politics.  He said (without hesitation) that Carl would do something with cars - probably selling them.  And Dennis - he said he would be a VERY successful salesman because he could convince anyone to do anything.  He figured Al would be a department manager in a large corporation and Bruce would have continued on his own as a producer and songwriter.


Thanks Carrie and David.
 
 

Oops. I can't believe I forgot Dave! I agree that he would've pursued music regardless. Probably not much different then it ended up with The Marksmen. However, because he had made money with the Beach Boys he was able to spend a lot of time in music. If he didn't have the money and couldn't succeed elsewhere, then he would've had a regular job. An architect (as he said) for Art Vandelay Industries? An inside joke for Seinfeld fans.