The Smiley Smile Message Board

I see on another thread the subject of Bruce as a Beach Boy has come up again and it got me thinking. Dennis of course was a original and the only surfer at the time. While not doubting his contribution to the band, his singing was limited and became even more so as his voice got worse in the 70s. Also his lifestyle made him a liability and he was often missing or sacked from the group towards the end.
Bruce of course has been Mr Reliability. Probably sung on more Beach Boy albums (?) and contributed more vocals per track. Aside from leaving in the 70s, he could be counted on from joining after Brian left until the Carls death in 98. (I'll put aside the Mike and Bruce show for another time)
Both wrote a few songs and sung a few leads.

So for the above reasons, it may be thought, Bruce has contributed more to the Beach Boys than Dennis.

Or bruce's material and work was used more than Deniis'

I think my (only speaking for myself) biggest point for having trouble to call him a fulltime Beach Boy is his way of seeing "The Beach Boys" as "work" while Dennis (and probably all of the original five) loved the band, because they had formed it. It's nothing against Bruce's musical qualities, just my point of view.

I don't think that Bruce's honesty about treating his job as his job should count against him being a real member. Especially when none of us knows how the others felt about the band. Oh, I'm sure we can find quotes about them discussing how special it is to them, etc., but it obviously wasn't all that different for them than for him, considering every other Beach Boy (except Al) left to do other things to apparently satisfy them artistically--things they couldn't do in the Beach Boys.

OK, Mike didn't do that...but then he's the most likely after Bruce to say it's just a job. The commercial aspects of the band have always been more obviously key to Mike than the artistic. Brian? Dennis? Carl? Solo albums to satisfy themselves...

Yeah of course they did solo-albums, but they as well could have left the Beach Boys. It's just my point of view (among some other) and why I can't see Bruce as a full-time-memebr. I don't say that it's a reason everyone should think so.

Carl did leave the Beach Boys. So did Brian, more or less, although who can really exactly tell (considering his fade-away from them). And Dennis, well, he did when he got fired, anyway. And as for their returns...$$$. Job.

Luther I don't disagree with you but I still think that if you worked your whole life for one thing, in this case "The Beach Boys", it means something to you. And my point is that Bruce didn't build that band, they were already big, when he came in, he "only" helped them.

I think Bruce was really viewed as a "hired hand" at least to the point of Sunflower.  There was mention on either a thread or in a book, I can't recall, that Carl wanted to replace Bruce with Billy Hinche in 1969.  Bruce didn't sing on Smiley Smile and I think that after the collapse of Smile he considered trying a solo career until September 1967 when he was back at the Heider sessions.

I think he's a Beach Boy for sure.

I see it a little differently, Rocker. Bruce Johnston was independently wealthy before he joined The Beach Boys. He didn't need the money, he didn't need the "the work". Bruce WANTS to be a Beach Boy. He is touring at age 64 because he loves what he does, he loves the music. What other possible reason is he still out there doing it?

Dennis is the one who needed the work, or specifically, the money. Dennis had ex-wives, child support, drug and alcohol addictions, mortgage payments, boat payments, etc. Is it true Dennis was penniless when he died? Why do you think Dennis wanted to be in The Beach Boys? Another possible reason might be to fill the need for praise, love, recognition, and acceptance - something he didn't get enough of from his family.

I sometimes wonder why Dennis remained with The Beach Boys, other than the above reasons I alluded to. There are stories of him not attending recording sessions that he didn't drum on. If I could've attended a Brian Wilson-led recording session in the 1960's, even if I had to be the janitor and clean out the toilets, I'd have been there! There are stories of Dennis not getting along with Mike Love, of providing Brian with less than healthy substances. There are stories of Dennis keeping his songs for himself, or the group rejecting them. There are stories of Dennis publicly criticizing Beach Boys' albums; not a positive to do, whether the albums warranted it or not. It just makes me wonder why he stayed in the group. And having said all that, I'm now going to enter the witness protection program.

I find this whole explanation horribly flawed. Rocker was the one out of everybody who nailed why it doesn't compute. Bruce joined the BB's AFTER they had been established as a top hit act for three or four years, AFTER they had established their niche in the pop pantheon, AFTER they'd forged their identity, AFTER thay had built their fan base...and AFTER they had made many, many, many of their signature recordings...he played no part in anything related to the BB's that came before 1965...and that's a HUGE amount of their legacy.

Dennis GAVE the Beach Boys their identity. He was Brian's muse. He brought them their connection to the culture that they trade on to this very day. Dennis was a Massive factor in the BB's popularity at the most crucial time. He received the lions share of fan mail. The girls came out in droves to see him.  Brian has said many times they'd literally knock the other BB's aside to get to Dennis.

Dennis' voice was HUGE in the earliest signature BB's recordings. Surfin', Surfin' Safari, Lonely Sea, Surfer Girl, Be True To Your School, In My Room, I Get Around, Don't Worry Baby, Little Honda, Girls On The Beach, When I Grow Up, Wouldn't It Be Nice. All of these songs and so many more BB's classics feature a HUGE dose of DW's voice in them. The FIRST song Bruce shows up on is California Girls which is relatively late in the BB's parade of hits. Bruce never had the presence or affected the fundemental texture of the BB's vocal sound like Dennis did.

I don't even have to mention what Dennis' energetic drumming or great songwriting brought to the BB's table...he doesn't need it. He gave the BB's a large portion of their early momentum with his presence, image and voice. Anyone who misses that is not paying attention.

Bruce is a solid musician, solid songwriter arranger...a great team player...a very talented man. He was a huge vocal asset from '65 to '72...to me the later years don't mean much artistcally or legacy wise. If you dig Keepin the Summer Alive and think it had any importance in the BB's story... then Bruce is your man. But Dennis Wilson was...Dennis Wilson. One in a Million. The BB's would never have been what they were without him. Not even close. I can't believe we still have to explain that some people.

Jon you hit it. Comparing Bruce to Dennis? Good lord. Ok Bruce wrote 7 whole songs for the group. Bruce sang lead on maybe 10. Bruce did some decent recordings around 1970-1 with the group but without Brian's voice or Carl's production would they have worked. On evidence of the Goin Public LP no way. Johnston is a craftsman, he is technically great. Dennis had real passion, guts, grit. I think Bruce would agree that his role musically was minor next to Dennis. Time put in is one thing, but what you accomplish in that time is another. Bruce is not as easy to get a handle on as Dennis was. Dennis was a good if tormented man. He loved his fans and his band, even Mike. He was no angel and never pretended to be one. Bruce seems to be the most dual personality of all the Beach Boys. He is both kind and brusk with fans. He claims to stay out of group politics but anyone in the know will dispute this. He makes some of the most insightful comments evber and some of the dumbest putdowns of the others. He claimed to have hated where the group was heading in the 1978 Leaf book, then helped push them there once he rejoined remarking to one find in 1981 that he wanted to play the oldies. He once called Brian Rachmoninof then told an interviewer that the Beach Boys albums were "merda".  He once walked out on an interviewer who mentioned Love You.  Bruce is a strange guy.

I'd love to hear some details abouth these occasions!

Well I will try to explain a little so you can see for yourself.  He is both kind and brusk with fans. I say this by reading his MB posts.  He claims to stay out of group politics but anyone in the know will dispute this.This is what I have been told by several behind the scenes people- backing band members etc.  He makes some of the most insightful comments ever and some of the dumbest putdowns of the others. Mainly refearing to his comments post 98 about Brian and Al..  He once called Brian Rachmoninof then told an interviewer that the Beach Boys albums were "merda".  This was in a early 90s interview with Record Collector.  He once walked out on an interviewer who mentioned Love You.Read that here.  

To add my two cents worth, i've always had a dubious opinion of Bruce, I'm sure he's a nice guy but to me he is my least favourite Beach Boy - the ultimate Mr 'Sit on the fence'. I've read interviews with him where he says some odd things, odder than Mr. Love indeed.
I think if he really cared for the band and their music, he would have packed it in in 98 when Carl died, realising that a Wilson and Jardine-less Beach Boys had absoutely nothing going for it. I also totally dislike his production on LA and KTSA.
I like Al Jardine though. :)

I think they're both Beach Boys, Dennis is obvious, but Bruce, just because he joined late doesn't mean anything.  If I were to move to NYC, after 40 years, I would consider myself a New Yorker, was I born there, no, was I there when New York was born, no, if I moved away for 7 years in the middle would I still consider myself a New Yorker, yes.  Bruce eat, sleeps, and breathes the Beach.  No, he isn't the most important, but I wouldn't be in a giant city, but I would still be a part of it, and he will always be a part of the beach boys.

There are few Beach Boys, present and past, who have dedicated as many years as Bruce to being a Beach Boy.

I don't deny his role in the group. I only say it's not equal to what Dennis added. This is a matter of taste only not hours logged.

Interesting to note that Dennis and Bruce were the only two Beach Boys to actually surf.

Obviously, Dennis Wilson was a major talent who made a huge contribution in the identity, voice and music of the Beach Boys.

Bruce has been a major team player; first fillling in on bass and b/r vocals.  Later on, he wrote some nice songs, sang some leads,  arranged, produced, played keybaords and a whole lot more.  The rock and roll hall of fame is fulll of band members who did little more than play their instrument and, maybe, sang some background vocals.  For example, their is no comparison between the amount Bruce has contributed and say, Charie Watts of the Stones.

Yes, Bruce has been a team player. Is it possible that it's actually Bruce who is keeping The Beach Boys alive?

We call them Mike AND BRUCE. The newspaper articles say Beach Boys Mike Love AND BRUCE JOHNSTON. Two Beach Boys (Mike AND BRUCE) are better than one. Can you have a "Beach Boys" with just one Beach Boy?

What if Bruce retired from The Beach Boys? Would that finally force Mike's hand and not allow him to call the touring group "The Beach Boys". Legally, he probably still could, but would he - without Bruce? 

Bruce's songwriting contributions to the Beach Boys could've been so much more, especially in the later years. Before he joined the band, he was writing music that sounded like what the Endless Summer-esque audience wanted to hear from the Beach Boys. But once he signs on with the group he spent years imitating, he suddenly becomes Barry Manilow. I don't get it.

Sorry for some this became a anti-Dennis thread when my intention was pro-Bruce.
Interesting the Stones post. I had thought of how important Brian Jones was in the begining, in fact Charlie is on record as saying it was really Brian and Ian Stewart's band, yet that did not stop him being sacked. The Stones continued without him of course to bigger things.
Maybe Bruce would have earned more respect had he lived on 119th St in 61 or been a blood relative.

Mike surfed a bit, as well.

Al also went a few times, if he is to be believed...

It would be difficult to avoid surfing at least once if you live in Torrance and Manhattan Beach, as Al did.

It's quality not quantity that counts! Bruce contributed some nice vocals to 'God Only Knows' and one BB classic in 'Disney Girls'. The rest of his stuff? 'Bluebirds..' is appalling, 'The Nearest Faraway Place' is elevator music (a good instrumental from this period? 'Mona Kanua' - by Dennis of course!), 'Deirdre' is, at best, average, and 'Tears..' is cheesy as hell! Bruce's songs were the worst on both 20/20 and Sunflower. His return to the band in '79? I'd say he's contributed to the negative BB image of an 'oldies hits jukebox'-style band more than any other member besides Mike. Dennis on the other hand, was always wanting to be progressive and forward-thinking with the bands music. He did indeed badmouth M.I.U. publicly, and quite frankly his quote is one of the best put-downs of an album I've ever heard, and a very justified one at that!

I agree (except I like MIU!)

MIU rules!!! :angel:

In your opinion of course....

I see no positive value in Dennis publicly demeaning a new Beach Boys' album. If Dennis needed to vent, there were other more appropriate times/places to do it, namely in one of their infamous meetings, or at the very least, face-to-face one-on-one with the songwriter in question. Dennis was a member of a band, and instead of taking shots at the band, maybe he could've contributed something positive - like a song! - to that band.

As Jon pointed out, Dennis's PERSONALITY was an essential ingredient in the identity of the band - surf and cars were Dennis's thing - and girls of course.  Bruce's personality . . . well, I'm sure he's a nice guy but his songs for the  BEach Boys have always been lacking in that department IMO.  Too mellow, laid back . . . safe.  It's the weird edges on BB music that make it so distinctive.  And Dennis had edge.

But if you look at time put in as a Beach Boy, Bruce certainly qualifies as a bona fide equal member - he was never made a partner in the BB corporation however, was he?

Like a song? Are you serious? Dennis had probably 30 quality songs in the can during MIU, any of which he would have been delighted to give to the Beach Boys.

That's my point, Jon. Why didn't Dennis contribute one or two of those quality songs to MIU, to make it a better album, instead of taking shots at it? You're right, I would've been delighted.

Maybe you can answer a question that I've had for a long time concerning the MIU recording, although I think I know what your response will be. This is my question...

It was obvious Mike and Al were hard up for new material. They recorded two covers ("Come Go With Me" and "Peggy Sue"), went back into the archives ("Hey Little Tomboy" and "Diane"), re-worked an oldie ("Hawaii" into "Kona Coast"), and even went outside the group which was almost unprecedented ("Winds Of Change").

Ok, here's the question. What if Dennis (and/or Carl) would've caught a plane and flown to Iowa (?), hugged and shook hands with Mike, Al, and Brian, offered the olive branch if you will. What if Dennis would've said, "Hey guys, I've written a lot of songs over the last few years. Here's a couple that I think would sound pretty good on the new album. Do you wanna hear them?"

It's easy to opine that Mike and Al would say, "Go to hell. We're making a Beach Boys' album here. Keep your personal songs for your next solo album." BUT I DON'T THINK THEY DID OR WOULD HAVE. I think Mike and Al would've appreciated Dennis' offer, and welcomed his songs. Is there any concrete evidence that Dennis offered songs to the band that were rejected. What were the songs and who rejected them?   

Given that the famous blowouts between the Wilsons and the TM faction had already happened, why do you think that would be the case?  Isn't that optimistic?  I mean the only reason that Denny's tracks made it to LA IMO is that the head of CBS was thumping the band for its lousy material and they had to take drastic action -- like swallowing pride and using a Denny song (shudder).  I think that there was a LOT of jealousy going on then.

Yes, I might be thinking unrealistically, but...

1) Mike loved The Beach Boys more than anything else, and wanted them to be successful for a number of reasons. If Dennis' songs could've contributed to that success, I don't think Mike (or Al) would've rejected Dennis' songs. And it's not like any of Mike's songs would've been bumped.

2) I think that many of the Beach Boys' disputes/disagreements, while intense in nature, were quickly put into the background - so the group could continue. The group always came first, unfortunately. I mean, look at the collaborations between MIKE & DENNIS of all people! While the latest riff (the Labor Day 1977 blow out) was a big one, it DIDN'T break up the band. And they eventually would come together again. MIU would've been a good start.

3) While I agree that the group was scrambling for material during the L.A. (Light Album) debacle with the record company, I felt that the band included Dennis' songs more as a reaction to the success of Pacific Ocean Blue. The guys had to think, "Hey, this guy on a roll here. Let's see if we can capitalize on it."

I'd still like to read an interview or something - with a reliable source (which I know is hard to find) - which recalls the band rejecting songs from Dennis.

They are STILL rejecting songs from Dennis. The original proposed track list of Warmth of the Sun included Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again(great song)...guess who shot that down? Not Alan Boyd.

Nearly every BB's insider I have interviewed has told me they constantly rejected Dennis' songs. That WHY he had 30 or 40 songs in the can, and still has about 30 masters in the can. I have no agenda to "convince" you or anybody else, i just report what I have learned. If I learn something to the contrary, like "Mike is actually a really good guy"(see Dave Marks book) then i report that as well.

Dennis had an excellent quota of songs per album between 1968 and 1973. In 1971 the matter was with Carl WILSON.

What happened between 1973-76 that his songs started to be rejected, beginning with "15 Big Ones"?

Mike Love only has one vote. I hesitate to blame the group for not releasing a Dennis song that Dennis himself didn't release when he had the opportunity.

Endless Bummer?  The rejection of the artistically valid direction of the BB in favor of celebration of a long over past?  The oldies jukebox?  Mike Love taking the reins over Carl Wilson?

And in 1971, I think that Carl was involved more as a diplomat as opposed to hating Denny's stuff.  In fact, wasn't the issue that Denny wanted "Wouldn't It Be Nice to Live Again" as album closer (to follow "Till I Die" thematically) and Carl knew that Surf's Up had to be the closer (and Denny opposed SU being on the album IIRC)?

What Carl songs are you referring to?  Carl only wrote a handful of songs for the Beach Boys, he was not prolific the way Dennis was.

And why did Mike reject or just not ask Dennis for songs?  Same reason he didn't like Till I Die, perhaps?  He wanted "upbeat, optimistic" songs not "downers" or "melancholy songs."  MIU was an Alan and Mike project, with Ron (from Celebration, Mike's project) assisting with production and even songwriting.  Although you can fault the songs, I've always thought the production was actually well done, if a bit self consciously retro after the forward thinking Love You.

It sounds professional enough, does MIU, but it's strictly BB by the numbers, sterile and dull.  And at its worst embarrassing.

Upbeat, optimistic songs like "Student Demonstration Time", "Everyone's In Love With You", "Matchpoint Of Our Love", "Sumahama", and "Goin' On"?

Compared to the MOR cack that is LA and KTSA, MIU sounds like a garage band, I really like the production, its sort of quite raw with a bit of gloss. It may be a dumb album but its enjoyable to listen to, its fun and thats more than I can say for the albums afterwards.

That is amazing--I just about said "I don't believe it!" but...I do believe it. With all the fans clamoring to hear this recording, for it to be voted down is just astounding. And I'm not even a big Dennis fan. Still, he was obviously remarkably gifted (as were they all, in one way or another), and for him to have such an output of recorded material just sitting there... Wow. I hope it's all been saved to some digital format, anyway, so when the tapes decay away while the surviving voters fight, the songs will survive. Maybe the grandkids will release the stuff.

Even if Bruce contributed more in terms of quantity, he never had any influence on the musical direction the band went in (except for maybe when LA Light Album was recorded), for as far as I can tell. Dennis had.

I can't believe 'Wouldn't It,,' was due for an official release and it got sidelined. And what Denny song did they use instead? 'Forever' - yet again! I just stuck a post on the other day, about how i personally feel that the band were, and still are, intimidated by Dennis' talent, and so it's constantly played down. 'Hey, he did 'Forever', it was great, and that's about it folks' seems to be the impression constantly given. I didn't know 'Wouldn't It..' was due for inclusion on TWOTS when I sent my post the other day, but this only goes to highlight exactly what i was saying. And how can it be possibly argued that it was in any way Dennis' fault his songs weren't being included on albums? His songs were left off Surf's Up entirely, 'Carry Me Home' was taken off Holland despite it's obvious quality, 'Pacific Ocean Blues' was excluded from 15 Big Ones.. I guess by the time of MIU he'd just had enough. Or maybe he'd just heard some of the recordings for the album and decided he wanted as little involvment with it as possible. He'd contributed the great 'Holy Evening' to the proposed xmas album of the same year, only to find that the rest of said album consisted of rehashed 'Landlocked' material or terrible covers such as 'Seasons in the Sun'. If no-one else can be bothered making an effort, he most probably thought, then why should he?

I think you answer your own question.


It is possible that, if his previous attempts to get things his way were not granted, he stopped making them. However, that's something I don't know, and J. Stebbins certainly made it sound above like that wasn't the case--that Dennis did indeed want material released. And Mr. Stebbins would know.

Out of curiosity, what rehashed Landlocked material do you mean was to be on the 70s Xmas album other than Loop de loop? I know some of those were older recordings that were touched up (Child of Winter), but usually I think "Landlocked material" refers to the early running order of what became Surf's Up, and it doesn't have any of the rest of the Xmas lineup.

There was "Santa's On His Way", which was "H.E.L.P. is on the way" and "Santa's Got An Airplane" which was "Loop-De-Loop"; they're kind of Landlocked stuff.

"Winter Symphony" is better than "Holy Evening" though. They're the only decent tracks there anyway though...

Yes, Loop de Loop I knew (see above), but I hadn't heard -- or heard of -- the other. It didn't even make Ultimate Christmas? That's a bad sign...because that album is a piece of sh*t.

(I like HELP is on the way, btw.)

They re-did Loop De Loop as you say, as well as 'HELP is on the way'. 'Seasons..' also stems from the same period. They'd rejected it originally coz it was, in Mike's words 'too wimpy', but I guess the quality-control had deteriotrated somewhat by '78 and so they picked it out of the vaults. I quite like 'Child of Winter' actually.. Have got a bootleg copy of it in which the 'Dind Dong Ding go the bells' reframe is sung continuously from Brian's 'Grinch'-impression onwards and it's much more lively and catchy than the version availiable on the current Xmas reissue.

AHAHHA. Mike, a man's man. Hey Mike, how's Sumahuma? That masculine work of brawny manliness, oozing with testosterone...

On the recent 3 CD 'Best Of..' Sumahara was included, as was 'Student Demonstration Time' and other classics. Dennis' songs? There was 'Forever' and... that's it. Carl and Dennis will never be fairly represented unfortunately whilst the surviving members are constantly trying to highlight how significant there own contributions were, which, in the case of the aforementioned Mike songs, weren't very significant at all....

AT LAST SOME WHO SEES HOW OVERATED MIKE IS AND HOW VASTLY OVERLOOKED DENNIS AND CARL WERE   SUSAN

Good question. Why were Dennis tracks left off Surf's Up? Was it Dennis' fault?  :-\

Dennis pulled his track or tracks from Surf's Up because of an argument with Carl over sequencing. This is a rare case of Carl and Dennis in a power struggle, and the album suffered for sure. Dennis rarely questioned Carl's judgment and Carl normally fought for Dennis' songs.

Go back and read the press from the time of the Good Vibrations Box Set, there is a specific quote from Carl about how he had to "fight" to get some of Dennis' songs included on the set. If that box set had been released after Carl's death we would have gotten Forever (maybe) and nothing else.

Yeah, but as devils advocate...we did get "Barbara" and "Time To Live In Dreams" after Carl's death...

I had no idea that Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again was passed over for TWOTS!  That is infuriating!!!!!  This is insane!  Why can't they understand what they are missing by not giving the fans what they want to hear!  What a kick in the pants!

Let's ask Alan about this. Though I want to hear it too, maybe it wasn't the right place for it. We need another archive release. No more Stereo- Mono remixing or vocals only etc.  Just unreleased songs

Alan Boyd and Mark Linett, as archivist and engineer for the Beach Boys, respectively, have done everything they can to catalog the unreleased BBs and Wilson material and make the case, where appropriate, for having it released.  From the standpoint of an outside observer, they are both real heroes and for example, they've both been pushing for "Wouldn't It Be Nice To Live Again" to be released for years now.  But it's not up to them; it's not their decision to make.  All they can do is tell the powers that be what's there and make suggestions.

Yes, Alan and Mark have both gone to extraordinary lengths to get stuff including WIBNTLA released.  They've both probably lost sleep and lost a few years off their lives with all the stress they go through.  And being fans themselves, I believe they are truly heartbroken when they can't share the cool music they find with you.

It's in EMI's hands, and in BRI member's hands; hopefully something will happen.

Oh I know they are sincere about getting this stuff out. I just wondered about the story behind how it got mooted for and then rejected from the Warmth Of The Sun.

Amen to that!

I didn't mean to accuse Alan or Mark of being the reason that WIBNTLA didn't make WOTS.  I was just voicing my disdain for EMI and/or BRI members for shooting that stuff down.  Sorry if they took offense.