The Smiley Smile Message Board

There's a new interview with Howie by Ken Sharp in the new Goldmine (from a longer interview coming soon) discussing "Feel Flows" and Howie also touches on other "Holy Grail" tracks in the catalog and discusses a couple that he's heard: Brian's 1971 "Sail on Sailor" demo and the '75 track "Carl's Song" (alternatively known as "It Could Be Anything").

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/225701660_4198297356916150_4695981252370032352_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=h5faWgU_GiQAX--9RHu&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=70507013b05d880e2ff002c9edacdda3&oe=61063568)

Very nice, looking forward to reading the full interview!

Speaking of the "let's get it out there" spirit Howie mentioned regarding unreleased material, I wish that same initiative were applied to the 45+ minutes of Good Vibrations session film from '66 that exists and has only been teased to fans with about 5 minutes worth of clips since 2012. Let's get it out there for everyone to enjoy.

Even though we all already knew this, it sounds like there is plenty of jaw-dropping material for the *next* set after "Feel Flows", and beyond.

I think it's difficult, especially for non-hardcore fans, to truly understand the depth of the BB archives. I honestly can't think of another case, in popular recorded music, or even in other fields like film, of *this much* A-quality material over the span of *years and decades* being left collecting dust in vaults *for decades*. It's so crazy, I can't even think of something that comes close.

Wondering if the "Sail On Sailor" tape mentioned is the original songwriting tape with Van Dyke Parks where Brian is heard asking Van Dyke to hypnotize him, or another possibly later demo run-though of the song? That "hypnotize me" tape has definitely been a holy grail for a lot of people since it was written about in the 70's.

!!!!

wow.

Loved the bit about "Sail On, Sailor"! Someone should collect all the different lyrics that were written for this song until it got released.

The "hypnotize me" dialogue was supposedly an invention of the original keeper of the tape. But it is that tape.

Not an invention.

Cut the crap Brian?

The originator of the story recently claimed that he'd made up the conversation for his own amusement. So that he'd made it up for his own amusement was made up for his own amusement and it's all really there?

Great stuff! Would love to hear how "Won't you tell me" and "It's natural" where brought to BRI.

"Hypnotize me" certainly is.

"Sun Flower 16 track master reel"? Didn't Desper say that it didn't exist?

Great to hear. (That was coming from Berson, by the way. Odd.)

I think Desper might've denied that there was ever a fourteen-song 'Sun Flower' album assembly of the above titles submitted to Reprise as reported by some authors - there wasn't, and the list comes from one of two comp reels containing the 16-trk masters for the project, seen in picture.

As a somewhat new hardcore fan who hasn’t heard many bootlegs or rare songs because I’m on the younger side, I still have a hard time processing the greatness that you all have said lies in the vaults.

Also, so I guess Carl’s Song isn’t Angel Come Home? It Could Be Anything is the same song re-recorded and left unissued during the LA a Sessions right? Howie, could some of the song have started in ‘74, or did Carl just invite Ricky over? Also, I’m assuming the owner of the “hypnotize me” tape wanted too much money from BRI and that’s why it’s not on Feel Flows?

Since "Sail On Sailor" was the keystone and standout commercial song of the Holland album, it's probably a better fit for something covering that era.

Exactly; and because it's an already-released title, it didn't need to be "copyright extension" protected by a certain date.

A "Sail on Sailor" demo would undoubtedly be a great centerpiece to a future 72/73 boxed set.

I must say, I feel a bit conflicted about the "Sail On Sailor" demo. Apparently Brian was in a bad place when he recorded this, and I'm not sure if I will feel like an intruder of this does indeed get released. Perhaps Howie could put my mind at ease. The vibe around that one for years has always been one of a pretty emotional, sad part of Brian's story. Hearing it exists and actually has a real performance from Brian is really something though.

As far as what Howie wished he had found, but hadn't, it's almost kinda crazy that instead of coming up with a wishlist he actually listed off actual tracks. Once again demonstrating how much great material is still lurking in the vaults, even after we get Feel Flows in a few weeks.

While we are at it though, anybody have anything that they think might not actually be in the vaults but have hopes for to be found? I think my choices of now would be the supposed medley of "Baby I Need Your Lovin'" with "Gimme Some Lovin'" that Brian and David Sandler did in '72 (?), "Come to the Sunshine" from '75 and "Just an Imitation" from '74. I'm not sure either the medley nor the Van Dyke Parks cover are in the vaults, while my suspicion on "Just an Imitation" is that while it was definitely composed by Brian, it may never have been recorded in any form. Regardless, judging by Howie's continued excitement about what's left in the vault, I'm excited about the possibility of more new Beach Boys releases.

Well...a "SOS" home demo recording is not the same as material from the "SOS" studio session, and therefore probably DOES need copyright extension protection - just like live recordings of already-released songs do. And a "SOS" home demo recording from 1971 should be released this year to ensure it.

I've heard conflicting interpretations of the copyright law when it comes to this. There is no precise clarity to this, because we can't precisely define what material is, for instance, a studio session that leads up to the finished master. Which studio tapes would *not* need to be protected? What if it's a demo, but recorded in a studio? What if there is a studio session for "Sail on Sailor" from 1966? Is that still considered a "work" part on the way to the finished master?

I don't think a "home demo" versus a "studio demo" can even be delineated or differentiated, especially when it comes to Brian and the band during this time, where their studio was literally in Brian's home!

From everything I've been able to tell, it's unique song titles that need to be protected. One interpretation is that any "work" material on the way to a master that's already been released would be protected, and this would, in this scenario, include both home or studio demos, as well as studio work. And would not include live concert recordings.

However, even if something does need to be protected, we've now learned after last year that dumping 30-second samples of songs online for five minutes and then pulling them constitutes "publishing" the material. So either way, I wouldn't expect we're going to see a full "Sail on Sailor" demo in 2021. I obviously won't complain if we do!

Ricky would still play on Carl and Dennis' sessions after he'd quit the group, if available and asked.

There are two things called "Carl's Song" from the '74-'75 window (because Carl couldn't title something to save his life): one an early Angel and the other an early It Could Be Anything. Neither received lyrics or a title until Carl's collaboration with Geoffrey Cushing-Murray in '78. The track bootlegged as "Carl's Song" is something else, I think from the LA period itself. Not certain about that.

I won't complain either! Fans have been waiting decades to hear the SOS demo, now is a great time to unveil it to the public.

This does indeed bring up an interesting aspect of copyright law, and how the recent copyright extension provisions fall into place within the existing laws. There are (or were) for decades two main types of copyright for songs, one was for the sound recording itself (form SR used to be the filing form) and the other was for the song itself, which would often mean sending in a lead sheet and/or a lyric sheet to establish when the song was created. So there were two possible copyrights for any song, both could be filed if that owner wanted to also seal in the recording so no one else could file a claim on the recording and the sound of that song when recorded.

So here is Sail On Sailor...a demo made before various other writers contributed and were credited for their contributions to what became the final product. And then, that more finalized version of the song itself, for which a lead sheet and lyric sheet could be created. Then after that, there is the demo recording which sounds different from the final released version, and then the final released version.

And that doesn't even factor in the publishing and royalty areas for filings with BMI or ASCAP, and the writers' claim filings for all those who contributed to it.

It is something that I really don't know how it would be factored into the new laws and how something like the Sail On Sailor demo would fall into those categories. If the song itself was copywritten at the time of creation, that should cover it and all future claims on that song. If changes were made later by various outside cowriters, were the changes enough to warrant a new or revised copyright filing? Then the demo, usually demo recordings would probably not be copywritten as a sound recording unless the actual music and lyric copyright wasn't full enough to cover it, or something inherent in the demo recording was unique enough to file both forms. And then the final recording would probably have its own SR sound recording copyright because that protects the sounds of the song as recorded so no one can steal the sounds and feels on that recording.

So yeah, my head is spinning. I can see where a copyright on the demo might need to fall under the extension process, but not if the song itself is already copywritten through the released version. No one can nick those lyrics or those notes played in that sequence, so it should fall under the original copyright. But how about the recording of the demo itself? I'm sure that could be copywritten as a unique sound recording for release purposes without having to be part of the extension process.

That's why they have lawyers who specialize in this bull***t.  ;D

I would also reiterate that if we were to get a 72/73 "So Tough/Holland" focused set, then a legendary, holy grail demo of "Sail on Sailor" would make sense as a centerpiece of such a collection.

If only SOS with Dennis on lead vocals had been saved. I always have hope that o every it may actually surface.

+1. Are we sure this one vocal pass was lost?

It was incomplete and taped over. Once something is taped over, it cannot be recovered. Not lost, just erased very soon after it was captured.

Thanks. Well not accidentally lost - but lost to the world in the sense that we will never hear it!

Isn’t there some new technology where if the heads weren’t aligned properly, they can recover some “erased” material? Obviously that would still be a long shot, but still it’s something interesting to think about.

Frankly, as legendary as that Brian/Van Dyke cassette tape is, and how interesting it might be to hear Dennis sing SOS, what I want Howie and Alan and Mark to conjure up is a tape where someone is singing the original "Beatrice" lyrics before they were rewritten. And then--because I'm egregiously greedy about all things "Mess of Help"--I want the jam session from Bellagio where Carl and the outside musicians worked on the backing track (referred to in the Dutch interview posted over at the "nearest faraway place"...). Just fork that stuff over, guys, so I can die in peace... :smokin

I'd just like to know the full lyric to it, let the cookie monster impersonators of the world record a vocal for it. I know the first verse has been posted to this very board at some point in the past.

As far as I know, when a tape is erased or recorded over, the magnetic particles reconfigure themselves. It would be like kicking over a sand castle, then trying to rebuild it using exactly the same grains of sand in exactly the same positions.

Head misalignment can lead to some interesting artefacts it's true. Tracks can bleed through onto adjacent tracks, which is I believe how the clarinet line on Look  / I Ran was discovered. Audio forensic plugins can extract and boost these ghostlike signals. However, if all the tracks on a multitrack are filled, any bleed through would be erased.

I'm sure that within 50 years, some sort of AI will be able to deduce and infer previous magnetic configurations of tape using, you know, some minimal amount of leftover information.  It'll still be pretty unsatisfying, though.

The other thing about this is that it's pretty much impossible to prove the negative, that nobody ever did a dub.  99.9999% chance they didn't but we can't disprove the 00.0001 chance someone made a copy.  (Even though we know they didn't.). Good times.

We'll probably see "deepfake" audio to try to replicate Dennis's voice before we see technology that can pull an aborted, recorded-over vocal off of multi-track analog tape.

That being said, I know of a few cases on *other* songs where Dennis lead vocals exist that you'd never think would have. Hopefully we'll get to hear those....

I remember watching a science programme once where they suggested it would one day be possible to read and translate sounds which had been imprinted on walls and other surfaces. Apparently all sound waves leave an imprint at the molecular level

They imagined how this could be used to hear the utterances of famous historical figures during famous historical events.

Personally I'd set off with the apparatus in the direction of 1448 Laurel Way, Beverly Hills.

Well some of his 1976-1977 era leads are interesting choices - I'm thinking of songs like "My Diane", "Mona" and "Sea Cruise".

We love Denny! Would love to hear more of his leads. Those 2 tracks of his leads on "All I Want To Do" were a revelation, even if the finished version with Mike does trump them.