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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: nts and the drum on April 19, 2021, 03:52:06 PM



Title: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 19, 2021, 03:52:06 PM
We know what Brian did on L.A at this point, but what about Dennis?

Good Timin’ - Drums
Lady Lynda - Co-wrote the orchestral arrangement & helped with the vocal arrangement
Angel Come Home - Lead Vocal
Love Surrounds Me - Lead Vocal, Fender Rhodes, Piano, Oberheim & Minimoog Synthesizers, Additional Drums, Timpani
Baby Blue - Co-Lead Vocal, Piano, Oberheim & Minimoog Synthesizers, Drums, Orchestral Arrangements
Shortenin’ Bread - Bass Vocal, Drums

Is that correct? Is there more?

EDIT: Added vocal arrangement for Lady Lynda & removed Hammond Organ for Baby Blue. Thanks Craig! He told me on the EH board.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Jim Curtis on April 20, 2021, 09:58:02 AM
I always thought that the falsetto on Baby Blue was Dennis.  Who else are you referring to on the co lead?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Rocker on April 20, 2021, 10:24:43 AM
I always thought that the falsetto on Baby Blue was Dennis.  Who else are you referring to on the co lead?


The falsetto? I remember reading it was Carl, although personally I thought it was Bruce.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Rob Dean on April 20, 2021, 10:35:10 AM
I always thought that the falsetto on Baby Blue was Dennis.  Who else are you referring to on the co lead?


The falsetto? I remember reading it was Carl, although personally I thought it was Bruce.


Its Deffo Carl


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 11:11:44 AM
Actually the co-Lead I mentioned was the “Late at night when the whole world is sleeping” vocals. I consider those co-Lead vocals in contrast with Carl’s vocal in the chorus, which is what I would consider the lead. Sorry about the mix up!


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Jim Curtis on April 20, 2021, 05:50:15 PM
Ever since I bought the album in 1979 I thought it was Dennis on falsetto.  I just listened again and I think it is Dennis.  Dennis occasionally sang with a falsetto.  The falsetto backing vocal on “You and I” is Dennis and it is similar to Baby Blue.  It definitely is not Carl on the falsetto.  And yes we know that it is Dennis on the bridge. 


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 06:00:10 PM
I thought it was proven that Carl was on the falsetto years ago?? Didn’t Alan Boyd confirm that?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: jwoverho on April 20, 2021, 06:08:15 PM
Back in my BB listening infancy, I thought it was Brian singing on Baby Blue since I'd heard some of his singing around the LOVE YOU-era.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 20, 2021, 06:12:11 PM
It's important to be specific, as it's not really clear what "falsetto" anyone's talking about here - the backing vocals are done by Bruce, Carl and Dennis, with Bruce and Carl doing the highest parts, and Dennis mainly singing the mid-range shouty parts. If you're referring to the lead vocal, that's Carl on the verses and choruses, with Dennis singing the "late at night" bridge. Clear as day, if a little raspier than usual.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 06:13:57 PM
I think we’re talking about the ooooo waha falsetto Carl does during the bridge that has Dennis on lead, but at this point I’m not even sure.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Jim Curtis on April 20, 2021, 06:30:30 PM
Gl back and listen to the backing falsetto vocal on Dennis’ solo album POB song “You and I”. ( No more lonely nights......).  After that listen to the falsetto lead on Baby Blue.  It is the same Dennis falsetto.  I know Wikipedia has identified the falsetto to be Carl but my ears of 62 years hear Dennis.   


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 06:33:47 PM
Maybe it’s both of them then! I always thought there was little Dennis on that vocal, but it still sounds like Carl a bit too. My vote’s on the both of them now, but if it’s Carl I wouldn’t be surprised.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 06:39:46 PM
Also, and I just realized this... doesn’t Carl sing backing vox on You & I too, amongst the others?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 20, 2021, 06:54:10 PM
The high, "Brian-like" vocal in the bridge of BABY BLUE is Carl. It's been confirmed by Alan Boyd.

On YOU AND I, the console strip notations for backing vocals indicate two tracks of "Dennis-Carl-Billy" (presumably low to high), one track of "low Dennis", one track with "violins Karen vocal", and one track simply marked "No More Lonely", which is presumably the track where that line is sung. Draw your own conclusions.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 06:58:08 PM
“Violins Karen Vocal”? The ARP String Ensemble, and Karen’s vocal were done at the same time? If not, it’d be great to know! ???


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 20, 2021, 08:20:28 PM
“Violins Karen Vocal”? The ARP String Ensemble, and Karen’s vocal were done at the same time? If not, it’d be great to know! ???

More likely, they are on different parts of the same track, recorded separately. Or, possibly, two tracks internally bounced down to one.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 20, 2021, 08:21:27 PM
Thanks!


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Rocker on April 21, 2021, 06:00:10 AM
The high, "Brian-like" vocal in the bridge of BABY BLUE is Carl. It's been confirmed by Alan Boyd.



Yes, I remember it now. Alan mentioned it on this board iirc.
It sounds like a classic 60s Brian, the same sound as on "Endless Harmony". That's why I thought it was Bruce on "Baby Blue". Learning that it was Carl just made me appreciate the Boys' craft of sounding alike even more. Even this late, when their individual voices all had matured.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 21, 2021, 06:04:19 AM
Agreed.  :-D


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Steve Latshaw on April 21, 2021, 06:29:05 AM
"The falsetto? I remember reading it was Carl, although personally I thought it was Bruce."

There are two falsettos on this track.  During the bridge, Carl sings the falsetto after Dennis' line "I dream of you..."  For decades I thought this falsetto was Brian but Alan Boyd confirmed it was Carl.  The second falsetto comes on the tag of the track.   This falsetto is Bruce.  Bruce also provided falsetto on Pacific Ocean Blue (notably on End of the Show).


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 21, 2021, 07:40:59 AM
I know I'm not going to win this battle, but I think it would behoove us all to stop using "falsetto" semantically like it's some whole other thing. 

First, things commonly described as falsetto often aren't -- they're just high.  And sometimes someone will sing a line over their break and some of it is true falsetto and some is not.

Second, I think it just makes it harder to communicate -- it's not as if these high parts are specialized parts needing a trained operatic countertenor to sing.  They're just high parts that get tackled in different ways, and in the context of trying to break down a BG for credits, it's much better to think of the parts in context rather than singling one out as "the falsetto."

But I know I've lost this one. 


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 21, 2021, 07:42:40 AM
I know I'm not going to win this battle, but I think it would behoove us all to stop using "falsetto" semantically like it's some whole other thing. 

First, things commonly described as falsetto often aren't -- they're just high.  And sometimes someone will sing a line over their break and some of it is true falsetto and some is not.

Second, I think it just makes it harder to communicate -- it's not as if these high parts are specialized parts needing a trained operatic countertenor to sing.  They're just high parts that get tackled in different ways, and in the context of trying to break down a BG for credits, it's much better to think of the parts in context rather than singling one out as "the falsetto."

But I know I've lost this one. 

Actually you make a good point. People can sing high parts without technically making it a falsetto.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: ForHerCryingSoul on April 21, 2021, 07:58:12 AM
Falsetto in my sense after studying music for many years is singing above the break of the voice, without the undertones of the chest. IMO Brian's is easily distinguishable and most iconic. The BB's stack their voices in 4's, 6's, or 8's (at the most), and are mostly doubled, making any falsetto part sound bigger (have more depth). Carl had the smoothest transition from chest to head voice (falsetto). Bruce's voice gets weaker and quieter as it moves to head voice (falsetto), same for Al. In LA, what makes the voices sound odd, is that they play around with their iconic vocal stack due to Brian's unwillingness to participate. M.I.U. was probably the last album to feature the traditional vocal stack of the Beach Boys that we come to recognize as the Beach Boys sound. I think there was a struggle to try and replicate this sound in LA, so it is naturally difficult to pinpoint as to who is on top, and so on.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: WillJC on April 21, 2021, 08:10:19 AM
Head or mixed voice and falsetto are distinguishable vocal techniques above the break. The signature high sound of the Beach Boys, especially in Brian's case, is head voice. Falsetto was hardly ever within Brian's musical vernacular. He just didn't develop his voice in that way. Al, Bruce, and occasionally Dennis did in the odd specific circumstances, although that wasn't the norm for them either.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 21, 2021, 08:22:11 AM
Head voice or mixed voice and falsetto are distinguishable vocal techniques above the break. The signature high sound of the Beach Boys, especially in Brian's case, is head voice. Falsetto was hardly ever within Brian's musical vernacular. He just didn't develop his voice in that way. Al, Bruce, and occasionally Dennis did in the odd specific circumstances.

Brian reminds me a little bit of some prominent countertenors who sang high as kids, and then never stopped singing high even after their voices broke.  Cenčić comes to mind.  They immediately figured out how to sing with more or less complete chord closure as high as they needed to go.  I actually would posit that Brian never sang without complete chord closure until the 70s.  Carl was similar, but his voice was even lighter than Brian's.

It's an interesting topic, but I agree that the Beach Boys signature sound is distinguished by the fact that their high singer never needed to rely on falsetto (unlike Bee Gees, 4 Seasons, etc)


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: WillJC on April 21, 2021, 08:28:34 AM
Head voice or mixed voice and falsetto are distinguishable vocal techniques above the break. The signature high sound of the Beach Boys, especially in Brian's case, is head voice. Falsetto was hardly ever within Brian's musical vernacular. He just didn't develop his voice in that way. Al, Bruce, and occasionally Dennis did in the odd specific circumstances.

Brian reminds me a little bit of some prominent countertenors who sang high as kids, and then never stopped singing high even after their voices broke.  Cenčić comes to mind.  They immediately figured out how to sing with more or less complete chord closure as high as they needed to go.  I actually would posit that Brian never sang without complete chord closure until the 70s.  Carl was similar, but his voice was even lighter than Brian's.

It's an interesting topic, but I agree that the Beach Boys signature sound is distinguished by the fact that their high singer never needed to rely on falsetto (unlike Bee Gees, 4 Seasons, etc)

Y'know, I think there's one whole example I can remember off the top of my head where Brian's singing something that'd be best described as falsetto in the 60s: the 'tinkling' backing part in the Smiley Wind Chimes fades. Really weird and uncharacteristic for him. Next one... end of the 70s In the Back of My Mind? Then jump to She's Got Rhythm. That's about it.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 21, 2021, 08:49:59 AM
Head voice or mixed voice and falsetto are distinguishable vocal techniques above the break. The signature high sound of the Beach Boys, especially in Brian's case, is head voice. Falsetto was hardly ever within Brian's musical vernacular. He just didn't develop his voice in that way. Al, Bruce, and occasionally Dennis did in the odd specific circumstances.

Brian reminds me a little bit of some prominent countertenors who sang high as kids, and then never stopped singing high even after their voices broke.  Cenčić comes to mind.  They immediately figured out how to sing with more or less complete chord closure as high as they needed to go.  I actually would posit that Brian never sang without complete chord closure until the 70s.  Carl was similar, but his voice was even lighter than Brian's.

It's an interesting topic, but I agree that the Beach Boys signature sound is distinguished by the fact that their high singer never needed to rely on falsetto (unlike Bee Gees, 4 Seasons, etc)
Well said. "Falsetto" is a confusing term, and it's mostly wrong when used in reference to the beach boys' vocals. I think it's counterproductive to refer to any part in a song with many high parts, and no discernible falsetto as "the falsetto."

And, as Alan Boyd, Craig, and some others have said, the high vocal in the background of the bridge here is most certainly Carl.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: HeyJude on April 21, 2021, 09:31:01 AM
I know it was established long ago that using "falsetto" in the BB world was largely an incorrect application of the term.

It has become generic shorthand for "the high part" for fans. I'm not sure it can really be undone at this stage. A lot of even avid music listeners that have never tried singing themselves can't always easily comprehend the idea of "head voice" versus mixed versus from the chest, etc. I'm not saying we shouldn't use correct terms whenever possible. But much like we're probably never going to see the word "Tannerin" used in a USA Today article noting the anniversary of "Good Vibrations", we have to be realistic about these things. When a fan uses the term "falsetto" in the most broad sense (e.g. "Matt Jardine is singing the falsetto parts at this show"), we all know what that means. Having said *that*, this is actually an area where I think fans and scholars and those with specialized knowledge have done a really good job of both not being pedantic about the issue every time someone uses the word, but discussing it (and educating us in the process). I'm fascinated by all of this, less by the semantics of the actual word choice, but more by the concept that Brian is using such a different mechanism/method for singing those high parts compared to many other contemporaries doing high parts (not to mention a plethora of people covering Brian's actual songs).

Less to defend its usage and more to help explain its proliferation, I do think part of that proliferation has come from surrogate touring band singers and their place in the vocal stack. Foskett, Matt Jardine, Adrian Baker, etc. have often been referred to as the "falsetto" guys, mostly as shorthand for explaining that they aren't literally "replacing Brian" in the band, but are assuming Brian's high part on certain songs (mainly early era material obviously).

And this of course brings us to another point worth mentioning: The Beach Boys and touring band members have often used the term "falsetto", seemingly usually incorrectly as well. Who coined the term for Foskett of "CEO of Falsetto?"

It would be interesting to trace the usage of "falsetto" in reference to Brian's (or whomever) high parts in BB songs; did the band members (or record label, or music press, etc.) start using the term more regularly before fans did?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 21, 2021, 09:35:11 AM
Well said. Nice to meet you too!  :-D

I agree, it’s been a common misconception for years, and admittedly I can’t help it myself. ;)


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 21, 2021, 09:45:02 AM
It would be interesting to trace the usage of "falsetto" in reference to Brian's (or whomever) high parts in BB songs; did the band members (or record label, or music press, etc.) start using the term more regularly before fans did?

That would actually be really interesting.  Brian certainly has what can be called a small child's understanding of music terminology at best, and whenever he talks about what he's doing it's usually in very negative terms.  "Too shrill" or "like a girl" and what not.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 21, 2021, 09:46:56 AM
It would be interesting to trace the usage of "falsetto" in reference to Brian's (or whomever) high parts in BB songs; did the band members (or record label, or music press, etc.) start using the term more regularly before fans did?

That would actually be really interesting.  Brian certainly has what can be called a small child's understanding of music terminology at best, and whenever he talks about what he's doing it's usually in very negative terms.  "Too shrill" or "like a girl" and what not.

Like he criticizes himself for his vocal on When I Grow Up & Let Him Run Wild.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 21, 2021, 09:58:38 AM
A large part of the problem is that "falsetto" has two different meanings in the music world - range, and voice type. So one can be singing falsetto without singing falsetto, if that makes any sense. But when Brian Wilson is listed on the wikipedia page for the voice type, it's clear that most people completely misunderstand the term and what it really means, physically.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Jim Curtis on April 21, 2021, 04:00:51 PM
I apologize I called it a falsetto.  I was not referring to the high background on the bridge.  What I was trying to convey is that I always thought Dennis was the lead and only lead vocal on this song where he sang the first and second verse in a high vocal and did the bridge in his normal  vocal for that era.  I al2ays thought that it was cool and rare to hear Dennis singing the high part.  I went back and listened again and I still hear Dennis as the lead.  You have to admit that the high vocal on the first and second voice is not a high part that you usually hear?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 21, 2021, 09:36:21 PM
I apologize I called it a falsetto.  I was not referring to the high background on the bridge.  What I was trying to convey is that I always thought Dennis was the lead and only lead vocal on this song where he sang the first and second verse in a high vocal and did the bridge in his normal  vocal for that era.  I al2ays thought that it was cool and rare to hear Dennis singing the high part.  I went back and listened again and I still hear Dennis as the lead.  You have to admit that the high vocal on the first and second voice is not a high part that you usually hear?
That is Carl, who is the lead vocalist on most of the song outside of that Dennis bridge. It sounds a bit raspier than the typical Carl vocal, sure, but nothing like Dennis to my ears.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Jim Curtis on April 22, 2021, 04:52:35 AM
Well for the last 42 years I always thought it was Dennis.  Carl had a much sweeter high voice although he sounded a little nasal on Goin South so maybe he had a cold or something.  The album came out in the fall semester of my senior year of college and I remember catching 2 shows at Radio City when they were promoting the album.  They were booed when they performed “Here Comes The Night” disco version.  I think I’m going to continue to believe that it is Dennis not Carl on lead. My visual is Dennis singing the high part with that classic hand to the ear.  Just my opinion.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: WillJC on April 22, 2021, 05:12:15 AM
I think I’m going to continue to believe that it is Dennis not Carl on lead. My visual is Dennis singing the high part with that classic hand to the ear.  Just my opinion.

It's objectively Carl, whether or not you choose to believe it.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 22, 2021, 05:34:27 AM
It would be interesting to trace the usage of "falsetto" in reference to Brian's (or whomever) high parts in BB songs; did the band members (or record label, or music press, etc.) start using the term more regularly before fans did?

That would actually be really interesting.  Brian certainly has what can be called a small child's understanding of music terminology at best, and whenever he talks about what he's doing it's usually in very negative terms.  "Too shrill" or "like a girl" and what not.

I remember an interview with Bruce Johnston from 1979, promoting the Light Album, where he mentioned that both he and Brian would be on the upcoming tour. He said that Brian would be singing more than he had (which didn't really pan out, except for adding "Hawaii" later on in the tour), and that with the two of them in the band, "We'll have a battle of the falsettos" (I think they both did alternate the high part on "Hawaii").


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 22, 2021, 05:46:17 AM
On a related note...I once read (in an in-depth musical analyses article from the pages of long-ago fanzine "Add Some Music") that the Beach Boys technically did not use the "bass voice"...that the low range Mike frequently sang in is actually within the baritone range, compared to the Statler Brothers or Oak Ridge Boys, for instance, who did employ actual "bass vocals". Interesting. Normally, I think of a lot of Dennis background parts as being in the baritone range, and Mike parts as being in the bass range.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: WillJC on April 22, 2021, 06:12:31 AM
'Bass' can mean a few different things, really. There are voice types, which can be sort of vague and don't definitively describe everyone, but Mike sits quite comfortably as a baritone. That's where his voice naturally is. He was great at singing parts in a bass range (again, sort of vague), although he couldn't project very well down low and that's usually he was put on his own mic, and why those parts tended to work better for him in a studio environment. In the right conditions he could be a bass vocalist and do it beautifully.

Then there's the idea of bass singing as a role in a vocal stack, which doesn't necessarily need to be super low. If he's singing a part in a chord that's best represented by Brian's left hand on the piano, fulfilling a bass function, that's a bass vocal. The terminology can diverge in a whole lot of ways.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 22, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
Couldn't Al actually sing a lot lower than Mike, if there was a contest?

The nomenclature is an interesting discussion, in any case.  There's words that describe more what role the singer plays than the range, and then there's words that describe the actual range, then there's words that describe the quality of the voice.

I know a lot of men in choirs who sing one part, but when they do solo literature, it's not that part -- they sing in choir because it makes sense for that choir.  When I was in choirs, I sang "alto" in one, but anything from Soprano, Canto, Alto, Tenor, discantus, quintus, contratenor, and a number of other descriptions.  None of that changed my range, though!

Mike was the bass singer in the sense that he usually took the lowest part.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 22, 2021, 08:20:59 AM
Couldn't Al actually sing a lot lower than Mike, if there was a contest?

The nomenclature is an interesting discussion, in any case.  There's words that describe more what role the singer plays than the range, and then there's words that describe the actual range, then there's words that describe the quality of the voice.

I know a lot of men in choirs who sing one part, but when they do solo literature, it's not that part -- they sing in choir because it makes sense for that choir.  When I was in choirs, I sang "alto" in one, but anything from Soprano, Canto, Alto, Tenor, discantus, quintus, contratenor, and a number of other descriptions.  None of that changed my range, though!

Mike was the bass singer in the sense that he usually took the lowest part.
The lowest I've heard Al sing is a D2 on an alternate version of Don't Go Near the Water, and it's a rather weak D2 compared to those that Mike has hit (I'm thinkin the intro to Hot Fun in the Summertime). I've never heard either go lower than that.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 22, 2021, 08:38:27 AM
Couldn't Al actually sing a lot lower than Mike, if there was a contest?

The nomenclature is an interesting discussion, in any case.  There's words that describe more what role the singer plays than the range, and then there's words that describe the actual range, then there's words that describe the quality of the voice.

I know a lot of men in choirs who sing one part, but when they do solo literature, it's not that part -- they sing in choir because it makes sense for that choir.  When I was in choirs, I sang "alto" in one, but anything from Soprano, Canto, Alto, Tenor, discantus, quintus, contratenor, and a number of other descriptions.  None of that changed my range, though!

Mike was the bass singer in the sense that he usually took the lowest part.
The lowest I've heard Al sing is a D2 on an alternate version of Don't Go Near the Water, and it's a rather weak D2 compared to those that Mike has hit (I'm thinkin the intro to Hot Fun in the Summertime). I've never heard either go lower than that.

Fair point.  I guess we'll really have to hold a low note contest.  Hey! That's what we'll use cameo for!


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: guitarfool2002 on April 22, 2021, 10:10:28 AM
Saying certain vocals are falsetto or bass or whatever else are just musical shorthand terms. The lowest voice in a group is called the bass voice out of convenience, no matter what the actual range of the singer is, and the highest is labeled the falsetto when it sounds anything like Brian on "I Get Around", Barry Gibb, or Frankie Valli. When pop music takes the musical elements that existed in classical forms for centuries and reshapes them into something workable, it's not as necessary to be as formal when analyzing it or even trying to communicate it to other musicians in the creative process.

The Beach Boys' harmonies and vocal arrangements more or less follow the standard Soprano-Alto-Tenor-Bass 4-part layout that has existed since chorale writing was the standard, yet does anyone call the highest voice in a male vocal group the "soprano"? No, because that has a gender-specific definition more specific to other genres of music, and the relatively small number of male sopranos that exist are essentially singing in falsetto above the standard countertenor range.

It just becomes easier for all involved to shorthand the terminology and say the highest male voice in a smaller male vocal harmony group (not a choir, for example, but a group like the Freshmen or the Beach Boys) is singing the falsetto part when they reach as high as Brian or Bob Flanigan did on some of those arrangements, even though Flanigan technically is a tenor.

I'm now interested to hear opinions on who among well-known pop singers (or which recordings from those singers) would legitimately be termed a "falsetto singer", and why they would be versus others singing in similar ranges.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 22, 2021, 10:23:16 AM
Saying certain vocals are falsetto or bass or whatever else are just musical shorthand terms. The lowest voice in a group is called the bass voice out of convenience, no matter what the actual range of the singer is, and the highest is labeled the falsetto when it sounds anything like Brian on "I Get Around", Barry Gibb, or Frankie Valli. When pop music takes the musical elements that existed in classical forms for centuries and reshapes them into something workable, it's not as necessary to be as formal when analyzing it or even trying to communicate it to other musicians in the creative process.

The Beach Boys' harmonies and vocal arrangements more or less follow the standard Soprano-Alto-Tenor-Bass 4-part layout that has existed since chorale writing was the standard, yet does anyone call the highest voice in a male vocal group the "soprano"? No, because that has a gender-specific definition more specific to other genres of music, and the relatively small number of male sopranos that exist are essentially singing in falsetto above the standard countertenor range.

It just becomes easier for all involved to shorthand the terminology and say the highest male voice in a smaller male vocal harmony group (not a choir, for example, but a group like the Freshmen or the Beach Boys) is singing the falsetto part when they reach as high as Brian or Bob Flanigan did on some of those arrangements, even though Flanigan technically is a tenor.

I'm now interested to hear opinions on who among well-known pop singers (or which recordings from those singers) would legitimately be termed a "falsetto singer", and why they would be versus others singing in similar ranges.

I actually call the highest part in the traditional Beach Boys stack the treble line.  Less dependent on defining the means of vocal production as the defining characteristic when what we really care about is the role the voice is playing.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 22, 2021, 10:25:45 AM
Perhaps interesting to note that in barbershop harmony, the roles are called Bass, Baritone, Lead, and Tenor -- and that's true regardless of the genders of the participants.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Phlip on April 22, 2021, 10:46:34 AM
Perhaps interesting to note that in barbershop harmony, the roles are called Bass, Baritone, Lead, and Tenor -- and that's true regardless of the genders of the participants.

The "high voice wail" part that is sung by Brian and is featured on a lot of BV on Beach Boys records in the 60's is falsetto, but on lead vocals in the early years of the Beach Boys Brian was (in most cases) mainly attempting to replicate Bob Flanagan's part in the Four Freshmen, which was a jazzy barbershop tenor or even high tenor, not falsetto.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: guitarfool2002 on April 22, 2021, 10:49:24 AM
That is an interesting comparison with barbershop harmony terminology, because it fits in with what I said about different genres and the terminology applied for those genres. In barbershop, as the second voice from the top is labeled the "lead", it suggests that voice is the one carrying the lead melody of the song with the higher "tenor" voice supporting with harmony. Yet when Brian sang the lead melody on a Beach Boys harmony, or when Flanigan sang lead with the Freshmen, their highest voice was usually the "lead" carrying the melody with the voices underneath filling in the harmony. It could be a case of the "standard" - and I hate to use that term - barbershop arrangement adjusting the parameters to fit the genre, where that upper voice would not be the one with the main melody but rather one of the middle voices being supported by both the higher and lower parts.

When I've done arrangements in the past for string quartet or brass quintet...and it's been a LONG time since I've done that LOL...I always reverted back to the melody most often being in that highest part as the standard, then sometimes swapping it out and back-and-forth to the cello or whatever was the case for various effects, but the barbershop terminology would suggest the 2nd violin in a quartet would be the standard part carrying the main melody while that is usually the supporting part along with the viola in a quartet. Interesting! It seems like another case of the genre and expected standards within that genre dictating which terminology to use.

I have to suggest again that perhaps the terminology applied to popular male vocal harmony groups like the Beach Boys and even the Freshmen may have come from the accepted terms used in genres like earlier R&B, doo-wop, etc where the highest male voice was just labeled falsetto when the part was higher than normal in the song. Same with "bass", although that one seems more applicable to the lowest voice heard across the board.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 22, 2021, 10:51:24 AM
Perhaps interesting to note that in barbershop harmony, the roles are called Bass, Baritone, Lead, and Tenor -- and that's true regardless of the genders of the participants.

The "high voice wail" part that is sung by Brian and is featured on a lot of BV on Beach Boys records in the 60's is falsetto, but on lead vocals in the early years of the Beach Boys Brian was (in most cases) mainly attempting to replicate Bob Flanagan's part in the Four Freshmen, which was a jazzy barbershop tenor or even high tenor, not falsetto.

See, that's where I disagree.  I think Brian was a sort of leggiero tenor type voice that mixed a lot of head voice into the timbre pretty low in his range and never needed to open his vocal folds to produce falsetto.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: guitarfool2002 on April 22, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
It just occurred to me how even the definition of a male "tenor" can be as specific to a genre as to label the difference between a tenor and an "Irish Tenor". It's interesting what differences there were, and it seems more specific to the type of songs being sung rather than anything purely technical, to call someone an "Irish Tenor" versus a standard tenor vocalist. Again it seems to be the genre defining the terms.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 22, 2021, 10:55:00 AM
Perhaps interesting to note that in barbershop harmony, the roles are called Bass, Baritone, Lead, and Tenor -- and that's true regardless of the genders of the participants.

The "high voice wail" part that is sung by Brian and is featured on a lot of BV on Beach Boys records in the 60's is falsetto, but on lead vocals in the early years of the Beach Boys Brian was (in most cases) mainly attempting to replicate Bob Flanagan's part in the Four Freshmen, which was a jazzy barbershop tenor or even high tenor, not falsetto.

See, that's where I disagree.  I think Brian was a sort of leggiero tenor type voice that mixed a lot of head voice into the timbre pretty low in his range and never needed to open his vocal folds to produce falsetto.
I agree. Can't think of any moments outside of 2 or 3 very specific vocals in the 70s (and on Wind Chimes like Salty noted) that Brian actually uses a "falsetto." And I also think that generally using that term creates a lot of misconception, and many people will point to Brian Wilson as an example when describing the voice type, when that technique was really not something that he used.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Joshilyn Hoisington on April 22, 2021, 10:57:41 AM
Yeah, ultimately this is really splitting the atom; Craig is not wrong when saying that genre defines a lot of the terminology, regardless of the physiological processes at play.  But if we can be hyper-accurate, you know, why not be?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: guitarfool2002 on April 22, 2021, 11:00:22 AM
For non-musicians, I think it's a case where they hear Brian Wilson singing those high notes in Surf's Up or the high leads in Let Him Run Wild or I Get Around, and the higher notes don't sound any different than when they hear Barry Gibb singing Stayin' Alive or More Than A Woman, or anything from Frankie Valli pre-1965. It's a male voice singing really high notes as a melody, and the term most know is falsetto for that style of singing.

Has anyone ever broken down specific differences similar to those examples, in a non-classical format like pop music or doo-wop?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: HeyJude on April 22, 2021, 12:47:28 PM
It's interesting as well to see how trying to sing those old Brian parts in concert led to relatively widely varying approaches. Foskett would often bend up into the high notes (think the first two lines of the choruses on "I Get Around"), while Matt Jardine would hit them straight on.

Some singers in the touring band have attempted to sing high parts full-voiced instead of going into a sort of falsetto voice (you can hear Foskett switch between the two on "I Get Around").

You have other cases where singers who don't really seem to be "the high part" sort of singers doing their best. So again using the "I Get Around" example, you have Bobby Figueroa doing the Brian parts. Bobby had/has a nice mid-range voice, but that's a good example of someone hitting the high notes, but because it's probably not in their normal range, they lose a lot of power when they hit those notes.

The late 70s into the early 80s was an interesting time in this regard, because you still had, say, Al singing the high parts on stuff like "Barbara Ann", whereas on other stuff it had either been handed off to Bobby (later mostly Jeff Foskett). Carl slowly ceded the lead on "Don't Worry Baby" after taking it back from Al, eventually sharing it with Foskett. By the 90s, they just let Matt Jardine sing the whole thing.

Over the years a lot of discussion has centered around who, in concert, was/is the best Brian fill-in, and I've always said nobody really sounded particularly like him. Al and Carl could at times in the 60s. But after that, not so much. By default I think Matt Jardine has come the closest (much more so than Foskett or Baker, or others).

And the studio is a whole other ball of wax ID'ing the high part singers, especially by the late 70s and early 80s again where Bruce was back, but Foskett and Adrian Baker were also sometimes in on those sessions. We still don't have definitive indicators on who, for instance, is singing the high part at the end of "California Dreamin'", recorded in 1982. Bruce, Brian, Foskett, and Baker are all possible candidates. Or did we get the AFM sheets on that and make a more firm determination. I digress of course.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 22, 2021, 01:20:34 PM
I can tell you that the falsetto on California Dreamin’ isn’t Bruce. That’s all though. I’m listening to it right now and I have no idea.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 22, 2021, 03:48:14 PM
I can tell you that the falsetto on California Dreamin’ isn’t Bruce. That’s all though. I’m listening to it right now and I have no idea.
Once again, it's really important to specify which exact vocal one is talking about when trying to determine its singer - "the falsetto" will never accurately describe one part of a beach boys song, and definitely doesn't narrow it down on California Dreamin'. There are many many backing parts, lots of which are high. Which part are you looking for? Could you transcribe it?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 22, 2021, 03:49:50 PM
I can tell you that the falsetto on California Dreamin’ isn’t Bruce. That’s all though. I’m listening to it right now and I have no idea.
Once again, it's really important to specify which exact vocal one is talking about when trying to determine its singer - "the falsetto" will never accurately describe one part of a beach boys song, and definitely doesn't narrow it down on California Dreamin'. There are many many backing parts, lots of which are high. Which part are you looking for? Could you transcribe it?

I believe HeyJude was referring to the one near the end. His post above might explain it better than I could.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: adamghost on April 23, 2021, 09:22:18 AM
"The falsetto? I remember reading it was Carl, although personally I thought it was Bruce."

There are two falsettos on this track.  During the bridge, Carl sings the falsetto after Dennis' line "I dream of you..."  For decades I thought this falsetto was Brian but Alan Boyd confirmed it was Carl.  The second falsetto comes on the tag of the track.   This falsetto is Bruce.  Bruce also provided falsetto on Pacific Ocean Blue (notably on End of the Show).

Just to cycle back here, the falsetto on the tag is actually Carl as well. I know this because I myself thought it was Brian, and I was over at Alan Boyd's house one night and he played me the soloed tag vocals. I was wrong; it was Carl.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: nts and the drum on April 23, 2021, 09:27:34 AM
"The falsetto? I remember reading it was Carl, although personally I thought it was Bruce."

There are two falsettos on this track.  During the bridge, Carl sings the falsetto after Dennis' line "I dream of you..."  For decades I thought this falsetto was Brian but Alan Boyd confirmed it was Carl.  The second falsetto comes on the tag of the track.   This falsetto is Bruce.  Bruce also provided falsetto on Pacific Ocean Blue (notably on End of the Show).

Just to cycle back here, the falsetto on the tag is actually Carl as well. I know this because I myself thought it was Brian, and I was over at Alan Boyd's house one night and he played me the soloed tag vocals. I was wrong; it was Carl.

That’s right, it was discussed in another thread years back.

Also, hi. Recently joined a couple of weeks ago but have been a lurker here for years.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Steve Latshaw on April 24, 2021, 10:51:01 AM

"Just to cycle back here, the falsetto on the tag is actually Carl as well. I know this because I myself thought it was Brian, and I was over at Alan Boyd's house one night and he played me the soloed tag vocals. I was wrong; it was Carl."

I stand corrected.  Fascinating how we all heard it differently.  From the time I first heard it on the flipside of the Here Comes the Night single, it was and remains my favorite track on the album.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: James Hughes-Clarke on April 25, 2021, 03:15:55 PM
Perhaps interesting to note that in barbershop harmony, the roles are called Bass, Baritone, Lead, and Tenor -- and that's true regardless of the genders of the participants.

The "high voice wail" part that is sung by Brian and is featured on a lot of BV on Beach Boys records in the 60's is falsetto, but on lead vocals in the early years of the Beach Boys Brian was (in most cases) mainly attempting to replicate Bob Flanagan's part in the Four Freshmen, which was a jazzy barbershop tenor or even high tenor, not falsetto.

See, that's where I disagree.  I think Brian was a sort of leggiero tenor type voice that mixed a lot of head voice into the timbre pretty low in his range and never needed to open his vocal folds to produce falsetto.

In his 'classic' 60s period, Brian would switch between normal (chest) voice and falsetto (head) voice all the time, whether doing backing or lead vocals.  But at this time his 'normal' vocal range was so high that it could overlap with his falsetto range.  By which I mean, some notes he could choose to since either chest voice or falsetto, depending on the dynamic of the song,  A good example is  Don't Worry Baby.  By way of demonstration here's the opening sections, where I've highlighted in yellow where (I believe) he switches to falsetto.  But for sure there's very little difference in the timbre of his head and chest voice, which is unusual.

Well it's been building up inside of me
For oh I don't know how long
I don't know why
But I keep thinking
Something's bound to go wrong
But she looks in my eyes
And makes me realize
when she says
Don't worry, baby
Everything will turn out alright


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 25, 2021, 03:23:39 PM
Perhaps interesting to note that in barbershop harmony, the roles are called Bass, Baritone, Lead, and Tenor -- and that's true regardless of the genders of the participants.

The "high voice wail" part that is sung by Brian and is featured on a lot of BV on Beach Boys records in the 60's is falsetto, but on lead vocals in the early years of the Beach Boys Brian was (in most cases) mainly attempting to replicate Bob Flanagan's part in the Four Freshmen, which was a jazzy barbershop tenor or even high tenor, not falsetto.

See, that's where I disagree.  I think Brian was a sort of leggiero tenor type voice that mixed a lot of head voice into the timbre pretty low in his range and never needed to open his vocal folds to produce falsetto.

In his 'classic' 60s period, Brian would switch between normal (chest) voice and falsetto (head) voice all the time, whether doing backing or lead vocals.  But at this time his 'normal' vocal range was so high that it could overlap with his falsetto range.  By which I mean, some notes he could choose to since either chest voice or falsetto, depending on the dynamic of the song,  A good example is  Don't Worry Baby.  By way of demonstration here's the opening sections, where I've highlighted in yellow where (I believe) he switches to falsetto.  But for sure there's very little difference in the timbre of his head and chest voice, which is unusual.

Well it's been building up inside of me
For oh I don't know how long
I don't know why
But I keep thinking
Something's bound to go wrong
But she looks in my eyes
And makes me realize
when she says
Don't worry, baby
Everything will turn out alright

I agree that Brian sings those lines in head voice, which is different to his chest voice, but I think it's misleading to suggest head voice and falsetto are in any way equivalent. They are two very different methods of singing, but both allow a singer to reach higher notes than possible in a full chest voice. Without a doubt, he is using his head voice there.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: HeyJude on April 26, 2021, 09:45:54 AM
I can tell you that the falsetto on California Dreamin’ isn’t Bruce. That’s all though. I’m listening to it right now and I have no idea.
Once again, it's really important to specify which exact vocal one is talking about when trying to determine its singer - "the falsetto" will never accurately describe one part of a beach boys song, and definitely doesn't narrow it down on California Dreamin'. There are many many backing parts, lots of which are high. Which part are you looking for? Could you transcribe it?

The high part I was talking about was the near the end (though I think that same singer is probably doing the high part earlier in the song), near the "playout" section of whatever on wants to call it, the "on such a winter's daaaaayyyyyy" part, where it's a single voice (though I can't rule out that it's doubled I suppose without hearing the multis).

I was singling out that particular case because it's from a weird time where we don't have many studio recordings (certainly *released*) recordings, from late 1982, and it comes from a transition period in the live (and studio) band where Carl had returned, and Carl and Al were still doing some high parts, and where Brian was coming and going *just* prior to hooking back up with Landy, Bruce had been back for a few years, and also both Adrian Baker *and* Jeff Foskett were in the BB sphere at that time as well.

In some other cases where a particular source of a voicing isn't clear, we can narrow it down more by way of who could have possibly been in the studio. In 1982, the band was only sporadically tripping into the studio for rando sessions, and the touring band was in flux as well, and it was during a period where a Baker or Foskett may or may not have been invited to a studio session. On any given day in 1982, Brian and Dennis may or may not have been with the band.

Combine all of that with a high part in a song that is a relatively non-descript, from an era where BB group vocals started getting processed more on recordings and vocals could sometimes be less distinct and a bit more homogeneous in sound. It's an interesting, though somewhat inconsequential, bit of trivia.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 26, 2021, 07:25:27 PM
Jeff Foskett is definitely on the BBs version of CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'. Can't say Adrian Baker isn't, too, though. Both were in the band at the time.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: southbay on April 27, 2021, 05:08:36 PM
I can tell you that the falsetto on California Dreamin’ isn’t Bruce. That’s all though. I’m listening to it right now and I have no idea.
Once again, it's really important to specify which exact vocal one is talking about when trying to determine its singer - "the falsetto" will never accurately describe one part of a beach boys song, and definitely doesn't narrow it down on California Dreamin'. There are many many backing parts, lots of which are high. Which part are you looking for? Could you transcribe it?

The high part I was talking about was the near the end (though I think that same singer is probably doing the high part earlier in the song), near the "playout" section of whatever on wants to call it, the "on such a winter's daaaaayyyyyy" part, where it's a single voice (though I can't rule out that it's doubled I suppose without hearing the multis).

I was singling out that particular case because it's from a weird time where we don't have many studio recordings (certainly *released*) recordings, from late 1982, and it comes from a transition period in the live (and studio) band where Carl had returned, and Carl and Al were still doing some high parts, and where Brian was coming and going *just* prior to hooking back up with Landy, Bruce had been back for a few years, and also both Adrian Baker *and* Jeff Foskett were in the BB sphere at that time as well.

In some other cases where a particular source of a voicing isn't clear, we can narrow it down more by way of who could have possibly been in the studio. In 1982, the band was only sporadically tripping into the studio for rando sessions, and the touring band was in flux as well, and it was during a period where a Baker or Foskett may or may not have been invited to a studio session. On any given day in 1982, Brian and Dennis may or may not have been with the band.

Combine all of that with a high part in a song that is a relatively non-descript, from an era where BB group vocals started getting processed more on recordings and vocals could sometimes be less distinct and a bit more homogeneous in sound. It's an interesting, though somewhat inconsequential, bit of trivia.

YES--I have always wondered who that was.  Does not sound like Baker.  Sorry, but sounds too good to be him.  Sounds like Foskett, or even a 1985 or 86 Brian (like a Getcha Back Brian).  We know Al went back and recorded his lead later--could Brian have gone back and recorded a backing high vocal in 1986?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Awesoman on April 28, 2021, 06:25:32 AM
Jeff Foskett is definitely on the BBs version of CALIFORNIA DREAMIN'. Can't say Adrian Baker isn't, too, though. Both were in the band at the time.

Wasn't the 1986 single culled from an earlier 1983 version [link below]?  It was touched up and reworked for the Made In the U.S.A. compilation.  So there's no telling who was singing the high parts and when they were recorded.  


https://youtu.be/0CJG6_gUSwY

Listening to the early version, the high part very well could be Bruce.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: sloopjohnb72 on April 28, 2021, 09:00:44 AM
What nobody seems to be mentioning here is that that part is a 2-part harmony, and given the Beach Boys' typical working methods, both were probably recorded together - as Adrian remembers singing on it, I bet it's Bruce and Adrian (Bruce singing the higher of the two). At least that's how it sounds to me.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Rocker on April 28, 2021, 10:11:26 AM
What nobody seems to be mentioning here is that that part is a 2-part harmony, and given the Beach Boys' typical working methods, both were probably recorded together - as Adrian remembers singing on it, I bet it's Bruce and Adrian (Bruce singing the higher of the two). At least that's how it sounds to me.


I agree that it sounds like Bruce is doing one of those parts. Can't say who the other voice belongs too, though.
BTW, just wanted to point out what an incredible lead by Al it is! Carl is of course awesome as well, but Al shines on here. The guy is such a great singer. Really good that people start to see that for the last decade.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: HeyJude on April 28, 2021, 10:37:15 AM
The '86 version of "California Dreamin'" retains a lot from the '82 version. Al's lead is the same (and copied and pasted, replacing Mike's), most if not all of the backing vocals are the same. Carl did actually re-record his lead part (though it's *very very* similar; reportedly Carl was annoyed the early version was released in '83 in part because he didn't like his lead; his eventual '86 lead is a different take, but it's not very different). There were of course some instrumental changes (new drums, 12-string guitars replacing synths, echo/repeat added to the sax, etc.).

But yes, the fact that the '86 version retains so much from the '82 version is precisely why I was saying it was an interesting case of some of the vocal parts being questionable given the large pool of potential vocalists in their orb in 1982.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 28, 2021, 09:06:43 PM
A report at the time it was recorded (which was May of '82) indicated that "the entire Beach Boys vocal ensemble" sang on it. Which could mean a couple of different things, but if it means the guys who were singing in the live band at the time, then it would be Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Jeff, and Adrian. Plus, Jeff and Adrian are both credited with "backup" on that Radio Shack cassette release. So, knowing that Brian reportedly ISN'T on it, I'd say the question is answered.


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: Rocker on April 29, 2021, 05:54:31 AM
A report at the time it was recorded (which was May of '82) indicated that "the entire Beach Boys vocal ensemble" sang on it. Which could mean a couple of different things, but if it means the guys who were singing in the live band at the time, then it would be Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Jeff, and Adrian. Plus, Jeff and Adrian are both credited with "backup" on that Radio Shack cassette release. So, knowing that Brian reportedly ISN'T on it, I'd say the question is answered.


I guess Dennis didn't contribute either, correct?


Title: Re: Dennis’ contributions to L.A.
Post by: c-man on April 29, 2021, 06:00:58 AM
A report at the time it was recorded (which was May of '82) indicated that "the entire Beach Boys vocal ensemble" sang on it. Which could mean a couple of different things, but if it means the guys who were singing in the live band at the time, then it would be Carl, Al, Mike, Bruce, Jeff, and Adrian. Plus, Jeff and Adrian are both credited with "backup" on that Radio Shack cassette release. So, knowing that Brian reportedly ISN'T on it, I'd say the question is answered.


I guess Dennis didn't contribute either, correct?

Probably not. I'd say definitely not.