The Smiley Smile Message Board

Just something I thought about but seeing the original SMiLE was not finished and what was recorded still exists, couldn't Brian have continued to finish it in recent years with musicians from his present band?
Might be asking a bit much for the remaining Beach Boys (Mike, Al, and Bruce) to fill in on vocals as much as possible.
I know it would not be the same without Carl and Dennis and not quite the same as if it was finished back in the 60s but made as close and accurate as possible. Don't know if it could be done?

I really don't think this sort of idea would have had any of the charm of what was eventually released as Smile. I think as released there was a nice amount of new found credibility because of the quality of the material and the enthusiasm brought from the various new musicians that came into the situation. I think there would have been far too much negativity and cynicism brought by the remaining Beach Boys, and besides it probably would have picked up a hell of a lot cheese along the way with Mike Love mouthing off. The interplay of Brian and Darian and co. was what allowed the music to be recorded, the interplay of Brian and the remaining beach boys would have most likely stopped it before it started.

Don't forget the management's need to make sure that Brian Wilson never needed the Beach Boys.

Probably not. Different sound, different instruments, different equipment.

The best living example I can use to compare the probable result with is "Sherry, She Needs Me."

All of that is true...there's no way a later day BB's version would work. but don't fool yourself into thinking BWPS is better than what could have been in '67...it's clearly not. The BB's vocals are irreplacable, the textures, the blend, the vibe...the spirituality of siblings. Darian will be the first to tell you this. What they did with BWPS was really cool...but the orig. is beyond it, and when you add the context of time and place there is absolutely no comparison.

The officially-released version of "Loop De Loop" is a good example of an old track with new vocals and sweetening overdubs.

I usually subscribe to the opinion that original is best, and I know this argument has been going around ever since BWPS, BUT I have heard snippets of the original and possess the new version and I don't believe one is better than another.

The flavour is different on the original tapes but I have enormous respect for the renovating work that was done for the contemporary version.  I don't get why people want to put down updated material.  Yes, there is a difference in tone, resonance, feel etc etc.  Mono over stereo, overdubs etc.  Sometimes people are just too purist.

I like 'original'.  I like original Coca-cola (no adds), I like original oak beams, I like original when it's vintage designer clothing (can't afford it).  I got the chance to see the BB play with many original members.   But in this case, no.  Original members on SMiLE, nice but not necessary.  Even if Brian got bulldozed into doing it, it's still his babe, and as far as I'm aware, he's still the original Brian Wilson.

You're discounting the input of the other BB's on the project. The inflection of their voices alone. The vocals on BWPS were recreations, or facsimile of the original arrangements laid down by the BB's in '66/67. On BWPS they didn't try to come up  with something new or original...they copied the old arrangement as closely as they could. Instrumentally this was much easier because it's less of a human thing. But still even the instruments weren't all created by studio men on the orig. Smile. Carl was there on many Smile sessions adding his guitar and input. Dennis played drums or percussion on several tracks, Al was there on a few too.  The studio people's contributions and inflections in the moment of 66/67 were huge, beyond huge, and again they mimicked those on BWPS. It is by no means an original work. Brian didn't keep all of that info in his head for 37 years. They went back listened to the tapes, and copied what they heard as best they could. They filled it in and finished it, that's the best part about BWPS...it takes it to completion. I loved it. it sounds GREAT!!! It is great. It is Brian's baby. But it's no way as good as the potential of the original. It can't be because it's a partial forgery in a way. They say that about paintings that have been forged..."it looks better than the original"...yeah well some of Smile sounds cleaner or tighter than the original...but it loses something that can never be duplicated. It is recreating an original work by painting by numbers...and adding a minimal amount of new original creative thought to make it whole.  The problem is you can't say this without upsetting people because BWPS is so cool. I'm not at all trying to put it down. I'm calling it like it is...and giving the proper weight to context. Bottom line...the orig. was never finished so I'm happy to have the modern version. But I'd much rather have had a finished version of the BB's Smile...because it was the real thing. I like Coke too.

Brian and Dennis damaged their voices beyond complete repair around 74-5. If it had been finished before then it would have been great but unless you can have the original vocal blend there's no use doctoring old tapes. Loop De Loop was finished but does anyone really like the new one comparied to the old. Al at least still sounds almost the same.

I do like the "new" one better than the original.

I don't know how much of the old smileshop is available here in the archives (or at the current smileshop), but this kind of talk has been going on here or hereabouts for years, and literally hundreds of thousands of words have been posted on the subject.

I think that, if you are a recent convert to Smile, then welcome! :), but it might be worth doing a bit of research to familiarise yourself with the history.

For several decades all you had to do was say 'Smile' to Brian and he'd have a nervous breakdown. It was a very dirty word for a long time.

Part of Brian's recent (relative) piece of mind has been found by laying the Smile ghosts to rest with the help of his new band, and the guy is really now in a position where he wants to move forward, not back.

And as for getting Mike, Al or Bruce involved, the Beach Boys don't even exist anymore. There's just Mike and Bruce in a tribute band, Al being Al-like, and Brian Wilson doing his crazy thing when Melinda decides its time for more product. Smile belongs to the 1960s, man. Its where it was born, where it died and where it belongs. My belief is you should just accept it for what it is.

Brian has, I suspect, no interest at all in the Smile tapes. The only people that give a sh*t about them are people like thee and me that post here. If Capitol think they can make money out of it they may attempt to release a box set, but only if they can make money, and probably not in Brian's lifetime.

You want Brian to finish Smile? He's done it, as far as he's concerned, and you can buy it in the shops.  :3d

John, I wasn't having a go at you.  I understand what you are saying and maybe what we are talking about here is provenance.  SMiLE would have had enormous resonance if it had been completed in the late sixties because of the context.  It wasn't.  Brian himself has said it was ahead of its time so you could argue that SMiLE properly belongs here and now, inevitably minus the BB voices.  I agree that minimal rejuvenation took place to produce BWPS, but if that hadn't happened, it wouldn't be SMiLE, it would be something else.  Original composer, original art... brought into 21st century.  I would like to have heard the original voices, but that's an impossibility.
It's like imagining that Pepper had never happened, until McCartney stuck and pasted it together in 2005.  I would say, "wow, nice music but where does it fit in".  I think SMiLE does fit in 2004, maybe not commercially, but artistically.  I think that's the test of whether something is real.  Maybe we agree to disagree.   :)

Sorry, I meant to say 'would not', IMO.

I completely agree that Smile is timeless, and fits in, or even seems progressive in the present. There is no doubt it would have had greater impact if released in 1967. Perhaps not immediately, but certainly within a few years it would have been recognized as something beyond Pepper , and all of the other sixties benchmarks. It's just too good to miss. It might have been missed for a few moments...but too many people would have pointed out its greatness to the uninformed. It probably would have been around 1972 that it would have finally been "generally" recognized as the greatest work of the sixties if not slightly before. But I know this is pure specualtion and the series of events that became the reality of Smile included intrigue, mystique, mystery...al of which gave it great notoriety even without a release until BWPS. But what was novelty and validation in 2004...would have been complete revolution in '67, simply the most unusual record ever in the mainstream of pop. Too many unusual things had already come over the Pop music horizon between 1967 and 2004 to give BWPS the kind of impact it would have had in it's original context. To me that makes the 2004 version kind of bittersweet.  But I'm with you, in that, in a way it doesn't matter. Smile, as a work of art, is for all-time. It defies time and trend...and any other limitation. 

Jon,

When you wrote that did you intend it to be cynical or ironic? It doesn't seem so, but...

There's a joke that you'll sometimes hear between an air traffic controller and a pilot where the controller will issue instructions to "fly at 1000 feet above indicated (altitude)". Obviously, this can't be done since as the plane climbs the indication on its altimeter rises too. So the plane can never be 1000 feet higher than it really is. Okay, not too funny (unless you're a pilot I guess). But maybe it'll help explain what I mean.

So BWPS - the realized work - isn't as good as the partially unrealized and incomplete early piece? Don't you think that no matter how good BWPS was, it would have ALWAYS been considered "not as good as it could have been". Isn't it kind of the same thing as the joke I referenced? I maintain it was impossible for it to measure up, because it was always referenced to a moving target - the original incomplete pieces. No matter how high BWPS flew, it should have always been higher. Even if BWPS was twice as good (whatever that means).

Any unfinished or unrealized project/work/concept/idea has infinite potential - how can anything ever measure up?

Just a thought.

Jim, I think you missed the point of Jon's point.

It's a moving target...or a moving point...certainly an evolving point. Robmac hints that the point of the point is there is no point. But I do agree with Jim in that there's no way BWPS can be as good, simply because it's not the original. Whether or not that was my point I think it's true. But besides the performance and the people involved it has to do with context and time. As difficult as BWPS was to create...or recreate...it wasn't quite like climbing the same mountain they climbed in 66/67. Technology and everything else that came in between changed that.

BTW...I loved the airplane/pilot/ controller thing. It reminded of that old Saturday Night Live skit...The Pepsi Syndrome. The guy in charge is leaving a couple of new employees to watch the nuclear reactor for the night. the last thing he says before he walks out the door is "Just remember...you can never put too much water in a nuclear reactor." Before long one of them spills a Pepsi on the console...and then things go wrong. Buzzers and alarms go off. One of the greenhorns thinks he meant NEVER put too much water in(so he wants to shut the water off)...while the other thinks , You can never put TOO MUCH water in(and wants to flood it)...and they argue away until the core melts down.

I guess you can never put too much context into the Smile argument.

It was a typo - I meant "Jon's post".

And I think I agree with you.  Technology, of course made compiling a lineup much easier in 2004. But in 2004, you wound up with a great record that hints at what could have been. Instead of ending the SMiLE saga, BWPS wound up (for me) being another reminder of how it could have changed it's original time and context.

On a musical level, as a whole, I love BWPS. But on a track by track basis, the original SMiLE tracks were perfection! Compare '66 Wonderful to 2004 for example. I edited together a BB equivalent of BWPS and  my H & V edit sounds absolutely incredible. And dare I say superior to 2004. This is no way detracts from what was acheived in 2004 nor should it detract.  Original SMiLE is Babe Ruth, BWPS is Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa.  So what if you're not Babe Ruth, being Sosa is still an amazing achievement.

 ""Original SMiLE is Babe Ruth, BWPS is Mark McGuire""

.....BWPS is 'original SMILE' on steroids? never thought of it that way....   ; )

With due respect to all of the above points, there is no original Smile. There is a series of unfinished fragments that Brian could not assemble because of untreated bipolar and amphetamine psychosis.

The only finished Smile that exists is Smile 04, and both composer and lyricist deem that the finished Smile. Smile 67 is a wonderful,jumbled series of musical ideas that form a puzzle with pieces missing.

Smile as conceived was voted down as a Beach Boy project. In my opinion, they gave up their right to call it a Beach Boy project when they voted down Brian's original project ideas with objections to Van Dyke's lyrics. Goodbye Beach Boys, hello Brian Wilson. 

With the exception of a couple of things you wrote in your third paragraph, there aren't many observers who will disagree with your description of the so-called "original SMiLE".

One simple reason the 1966-67 sessions are referred to as the "original SMiLE" is because it is MUCH EASIER to call it that, than to write "a series of unfinished fragments that Brian could not assemble..." every time we discuss the subject. That's a simple explanation.

Another more complicated reason is to make the distinction between the "original" recordings and the "re-recordings". When discussing the SMiLE music, some people (myself included), feel that the simple word "original" carries a lot more weight and validity than the word "finished", which you used, to describe BWPS.

I can see your point regarding some of the songs. As an album. it's not a rerecording, it's a composition for live performance that outstrips anything the studio lp in the 60s could have accomplished unless performed live just as it was on the 2004-5  Smile tours. The live shows from 2004-5 are simply the best representation of Brian's music ever done. This is from someone who has caught well over 100 BB shows from the 60s on through.

I'm glad to see some of you folks on the board.  Mr. Stebbins, Mr. Reum, and The Right Reverend Hanes, welcome!  I know what both Jon and Peter are saying here.  I love BWPS, saw it performed live from second row just between Brian and Darian.  What a marvelous performance!  Truly one of the best concerts I have ever seen in my 50 years.  I played the studio (BWPS) release just the other day after having given it a rest for awhile.  It still sounds great to my ears, and it will get played regularly in my house for years to come.  But here's the thing.  Jon has summed up my feelings on the subject perfectly.  There is a certain vibe to those 40 year old recordings that could not ever be duplicated.  The music is timeless, yes, but the things that Brian and Van Dyke AND the other Beach Boys were doing in the studio in 1966 and 1967 were revolutionary.  I have a hard time putting this into words, Jon has said it best, but if you listen to that stuff, with time, place, late '60s attitude and frame of mind taken into account, the recordings become even more amazing.  This was so far ahead of anything that was being recorded at the time.  And like Jon also said, the Beach Boys vocal blend could not be beat.  I sure would like to see a box set release, but I sure am glad to have the finished version, and the memories of the concert.

Peace, y'all. 

I still don't understand whether this vote-down is being stated as a fact or an opinion/conjecture/deduction, did I miss where that was explained?

I am assuming conjecture, until I see some definitive proof one way or another.

I don't buy it.

I want to buy it, and I have the highest degree of trust in anything Peter says...the thing that's bugging me is that if such a vote took place, why haven't we heard a single thing about it from anyone in the almost 40 years since it happened?  I really want to believe this but most substantiated proof is needed. 

Nothing was ever said about three movements in the last 40 years and we're buying it anyway.

History is in part the sorting of first hand evidence and anecdotal evidence. Two people have told me there was a meeting in December '66. One was there, one learned about it later.

At this point I am not ready to reveal sources. Too many people suing too many people.No one says anyone has to buy it.  As strange as it sounds, the motivation was a business decision due to needing to get an album out.

The Beach Boys did not generally take minutes of their business meetings in writing. There are a number of court records covering events from that era, but typical business meetings were not written down.

So we are going on several people's memories. They certainly are entitled to their own memories of the decisions they made together. That their memories would differ about long gone details is not surprising either. 

Peter thanks for clearing a few things up. I wasn't trying to be flippant, but it seems so odd that something so important (and less controversial then some oft repeated rumors) would go unreported so long. I remember you mentioning people telling you about Brian doing poorly in the 67-73 period who told me things totally in the other direction. So yes we do have to rely on failing or conflicting memories and also perhaps personal agendas. That's why it is so hard to sort out "truth". In my case I tend to try to make my own judgments based somewhat on what I am told, but more so on contemporary reports or archive material records, books, video, photos etc. I don't want anyone getting in trouble but I don't understand why Brian didn't stop the sessions then and there if this meeting took place the way you presented it. Of course many things that do actually happen don't make any sense. Again sorry if I came off quick to the draw but I guess I get tired of Brian having no culpability or taking no blame for decisions he made that I feel weren't the best ones. I feel I have look at both sides when it comes to the Beach Boys individual good and bad traits or actions. That said your input and info is always welcome in my eyes.

Thanks.  Interesting.

Those people should hire Van Dyke's lawyers. Van Dyke has told several stories to the press about the Beach Boys in 1966/67, including an episode where Mike used violence with Brian. What about Domenic? in his book, he writes about Brian being humiliated in front of the cameras.

And no one was sued. I think a simple fact such as a business meeting wouldn't be so controversial, but what do I know?

The reason Van Dyke doesn't get sued is because he's not family. This is Family Feud, and  all we need is Richard Dawson. Besides that, Van Dyke has been wise enough to sidestep the various volleys of artillery. 

With respect to Brian 67-73, Brian was essentially a man at war with himself and his family. The reason he didn't stop the sessions is because the welfare of nearly 70 people depended on HIS coming through. The reason he didn't come through is he was literally unraveling week by week.

By the end of 67, Brian was a cocaine addict with unmedicated bipolar disorder, moving toward deeper and deeper addiction and concomitant deeper and deeper depression. That's what happens to cocaine addicts with bipolar disorder. They move from manic highs and low bottoms to manic phases that feeel normal to the rest of us to lows that we can't even fathom. So as the 60s moved into the 70s, the depression got deeper and deeper.

If you don't understand that, you won't understand Brian. His illness was full blown and progressing RAPIDLY. The man had a neurochemical disorder in his brain, and addiction is a disease of the brain. The family had no clue. Marilyn did, and tried to help. Brian is a strong personality. There's a reason he is the only surviving Wilson.

The family was sunk. Their income and lifestyle was dependent on a business whose creative and business leader was deep in the throes of co-occurring unmedicated bipolar disorder and cocaine dependence. The lights were on but no one home in Brian's brain. You people are talking art, and I'm talking illness, family illness.

That Brian did what he did in the 60s in  the grip of such illness is remarkable. That he got as far as he did is a tribute to his resilience. That the family kept it all a secret for so many years is aso not surprsing. Chemical dependency is a family illness.

Then your friends shouldn't worry, they're not family. Oh wait, are we talking about Brian? In several interviews he essentially stated "They hated Smile. I didn't finish the album because they were such pricks to me". If he was gonna get sued anyway, why stop at that? Just tell the whole story and the business meeting where Smile was voted down by his brother and cousin.

Perhaps I don’t get Brian, but I am not pulling my viewpoints out of the air. Ok let's say Brian was addicted to cocaine as early as 1967 (which I have never heard about him even trying at that point elsewhere-though granted that doesn't mean it's not true). Let's accept for a second that he wasn't with it past Smile.
So much says otherwise that deflates this.
1. He got so much worse when his dad died.
2. He was able to function artistically better during that 67-73 period.
3. He only really get heavy, stopped bathing, etc. 1974-5?
4. Brian told me himself that the 67-70 era was a time where the group got along well.
5. He did so much more with the group songwriting wise at least through 70-1.
6. Much more inflammatory things about Smile have been said repeatedly. Why would a business meeting of all things be this dark secret?
7. Brian may have been at the helm of Smile creatively, but he had extensive help not only from Van Dyke but also every single Beach Boy including Mike, and an array of session musicians. They all put in a lot of hours. Brian was not the sole provider for 70 people they were a team the he headed whose talents and artistic capabilities were growing daily.
8. The Beach Boys wouldn’t sue Parks because he isn’t family? Tell that to Joe Thomas, Capitol Records, and A&M etc.
9. Smiley Smile was weirder then anything recorded for Smile. Mike and Al wanted to play it safe and released She’s Going Bald??
10. He could go to Hawaii to play live in a state of full mental collapse?
11. I mentioned this before but from 1965-73 Brian played shows if and when he wanted to. From 1976-82 he was constantly out on the road. After 1977 he was in clearly worse shape then ever. With all I point out above can you deny that Brian was more in charge of what he did and how before 1973?

Let’s look at Brian before Smile, or even Pet Sounds.
1. He would get reclusive periods as early as 1963, before any drug use.
2. By 1964 he had weight gain, panic attacks, and finally a breakdown, still before any major drug use notwithstanding tentative use of pot at the end of the year.
3. He went to therapists as early as 1965, none saw ANYTHING???


Yes he was having genetically based problems and probably would have anyway, but to blame anyone but himself for what he ingested, or any decisions he made creatively is going against your point of how strong Brian was at the time .I am not saying the facts you have about him medically are wrong, I only am saying (Marilyn told me this herself) that they didn't happen overnight. I also think that yeah he and the band fell out but to me there seems to have been a period of calm and harmony at least relative to the Beach Boys. There is just so big a difference between the Brian of let's say 78-79 then 68-69. Carlin's book has people like Steve Shapiro, Kalinich, Desper, Sandler, all backing up what I am saying about Brian's relative normalcy compared to later times. I have to go with what I feel and this and so do you. I doubt we will ever agree on this but I respect your take and observations on Brian. All I ask is that you respect mine.                     

Your point of view is that of a person, who, however well intended, does not understand mental illness or addictive disease. Brian was doing so called recreational drugs in 1965-marijuana, hashish, and also amphetamines. Combined with an undiagnosed bipolar condition, he was already altering his brain biochemically before he ever hit Pet Sounds. I think many people believe that Brian injured his brain ingesting LSD, but I would contend that it made an inherited proclivity for auditory hallucinations worse.

Brian was doing cocaine by fall of 1967, although I believe his growing tendency toward being out of touch was in place in the winter of 66-67. I believe he began to lose touch with reality back then. He has told me this and other people close to him this as well. Addicts are secretive, and this is something that most people don't realize. Brian hid his worst drug ingestion from the people closest to him. People that saw the worst were his friends from 67 on.

As far as what constitutes worse-he was sufficiently out of touch to lose track of Smile, and to think a photojournalist on the Wild Honey backcover photoshoot was Phil Spector. He had nervous breakdowns in March and July of 67, and was hospitalized in fall of 68 and given the diagnosis, incorrectly, of being schizophrenic. He was given first generation anti psychotics for the first time. He has told friends of mine he was never the same after that period of institutionalization.

He gave away his RIAA Awards in 1969 and dug a grave in his backyard. When Murry died, his use of cocaine went up again, and he tried to numb his grief. But in 1972 he begged the group not to make him go to Holland and jumped in a canal and tried to drown himself. He was intoxicated, and had Carl not found him, and jumped in after him,  he would have drowned. He started a business to escape the new BB contract in 69, and did everything he could to sabotage the signing, including painting his face when he was visited by the Warner Execs to see if he'd cooperate. Jasper Dailey told me he cried like a baby at the contract signing. He took the pictures and was there. Does that sound like a man who wants to be with The Beach Boys???

As for functioning better from 67-73, it is simply an earlier stage in the addictive illness. He was not medicated most of the time, and hiding the severity of his addiction from Marilyn. Carl told me that they didn't didn't realize how deep into addiction Brian was even in the Smile period, much less the later 60s and Early 70s. Brian was simply further along in his addictive illness in the later 70s, and had stopped trying to hide his addiction and his dissatisfaction with his BB life and his family life.

Your points are so general so as to be difficult to reply to but I'll try---

1) Dennis got worse when his dad died, but Brian simply felt a great deal of grief about not resolving his differences with his dad. His overall functioning did not change that appreciably until 1975. At that time his cocaine dependence had gotten back to early 70s levels.

2) Functionality is the most subjective of psychiatric determinations. In the DSM-IV, Global Affective Functioning is almost laughably subjective. I would contend that psychiatrically, Brian was far less functional in the late 60s and early 70s. I would contend that addictively, he was worse in 75 because his addictive disease had advanced much further along.

3) Weight was simply a cross addiction from the cocaine. It wasn't an indicator of anything other than a tranfer of addiction from cocaine to overeating. Similar level of addiction to the late 60s and early 70s, he simply changed from mood altering chemicals to overeating.

4) I'm sure Brian remembers good moments from the late 60s. The Friends album is a special moment for him, because when he needed help with finishing stuff on Wild Honey and Friends, the group stepped up to help him, even Murry.

5) Brian wrote songs more than anything else musically from Wild Honey on. Carl tended to co-produce, and eventually took full production reigns on with 20/20.  He did not produce as much, and when he did, he tended not to finsish what he started. A tour through the BBs archives will persuade you of this.

6) The business meetings are where the decisions were made. Those are family matters and are considered private. The only hint you get is either by going down to the LA County Courthouse and reading through the court minutes, or through a few hints when people who did attend say how brutal they got. Anyone can talk about sessions, they are recorded. The business meetings weren't until Nick Grillo came along, God bless him.

7) No one, including Van Dyke knew how Brian was going to sequence Smile, or what he wanted that well, because he couldn't articulate his vision that well. I think that is one reason the group got scared and pulled the plug.

8) Nope, Van Dyke is well regarded by all of the BBs as a true gentleman. After all he stepped aside and got out of the way of family business disagreements.

9) Smiley Smile was not Smile. When Smile's plug got pulled, Brian went into passive aggressive mode and put out the strangest, most uncommercial album by a group in the 60s. It was Brian's way of saying "up yours" to the BBs-

10) If you've heard the tapes from Hawaii, you know they aren't suitable for release. A friend of mine saw the shows and Brian looked "strange" during both shows. The group was drugging that whole trip to Hawaii. There's a great summary of an assistant engineer talking about how loaded they ALL were in Hawaii. Brian was coming of a nervous collapse, and Hawaii was the idea to let him chill. By December he didn't recognize David Dalton and thought he was Phil Spector.

11) Brian was arguably more functional to the group in the 77-82 period as a musician if you count the simple number of appearances he made with the band compared with 67-73. I am not sure I would use that as an indicator of functioning, but one could.


Brian before Pet Sounds:

Brian was doing LSD, marijuana, amphetamines, and hashish long before Pet Sounds. His use was fairly secretive, and I don't think any of the group had a clue until much later how many mood altering chemicals he was ingesting and how frequently. Your point about Brian's mental illness and fragile emotional nature is well taken. He WAS abused physically and emotionally as a child, as was Dennis. He retreated to his room initially to avoid the beatings and became the proverbial "Lost Child" in the addicted family. Brian hid his illness from people for many years. He fooled his family, his cousin, his friends, and his fellow musicians. Peter Carlin's book makes plain that his friends, only now, in hindsight can see the damage Murry did.

Marilyn is absolutely accurate that the damage did not happen overnight. But the handsome, talented man she married was going well into the second stage of addictive illness by 1965, and by 1966, Marilyn could see the changes. When Brian cross addicted to amphetamines and then to cocaine he simply traded in a Ford Taurus stimulant for a Lincoln Continental stimulant. When Marilyn was finally somewhat successful in cutting off his cocaine sources in 1974, he again cross addicted to overeating. Then back to cocaine, then to alcohol and overeating. The maddening thing about an addict like Brian is that you may think you have him controlled by getting his sources away from him, but then he cross addicts. I think all of the people you mention have valuable perspectives to contribute. Brian Wilson is a chameleon. He will show you whatever he thinks you need in order to get his immediate needs met. Such is the nature of an abused adult from a family where there was an out of control abusive father.

There are no heroes in this saga there are no villains. Only tragic circumstances, that like Peter Carlin points out, have resolved into the sweetest possible ending such a sad story can have.

Surely all we can talk about with any certainty is the art - the music that we can hear for ourselves, just like one can appreciate the beauty of a Van Gogh before one's eyes. You may learn that Van Gogh was in a psychiatric ward when he painted the picture but to then describe the painting as the product of a psychotic mind seems to be missing the point to me. It may be a diseased mind, but we see from the painting that that mind is perceiving, feeling, and expressing more than we are capable. The aesthetic result is more than just an outpouring of psychosis. To describe Smiley Smile as a passive agressive response is similarly missing the point imo or at least affording too much importance to one (i.e. a clinical) perspective. Maybe Brian had a sabotage mentality at this point, but the result is too crafted - there is too much aesthetic consideration - for it to be a purely destructive and negative project.

That was a beautiful post, Peter Reum.

If the Boys voted to dump SMiLE, then why did Brian have to nearly/did break up the group in order to dump SMiLE?   I'm afraid I'd have to see some minutes of that meeting. 

I guess equally qualified mental health professionals won't necessarily agree, especially when none have had the benefit of an in-depth professional relationship with the subject.

I think I agree with you buddhahat.

This is not the first time I've read this theory on Beach Boys' message boards. While I view Smiley Smile as a lot of things, a "screw you" from Brian is not one of them.

I suppose Brian had that side to him (don't we all at times), but that is a pretty major/significant way to seek revenge on somebody - intentionally record an album that you know will be ostracized. Would Brian do that to his brothers and family?

Along those family lines, I have often read, in relation to the SMiLE era, that Brian felt pressured to support the family, to keep the "business" going, which led to him second-guessing SMiLE. To me, to record an album that you know isn't going to sell in Smiley Smile, well, that's a total deviation from feeling the need to look out for the family's well being. Actually, that's hypocritical thinking. But I guess we can chalk that logic up to the drugs and mental illness too...
 

Plus, I don't think the other Beach Boys would've gone along with "Smiley" if they thought Brian was trying to sabatoge them.  By the time of the "Smiley" recording sessions, "Sgt. Pepper" had been released, and the rock world was in full-on freakout mode.  So a little weirdness from the Boys wasn't necessarily seen as a bad thing, commerically speaking. 

Actually, I think there was a meeting where SMiLE was voted down but it was in the Spring of '67 when Brian informed the Boys he was junking SU and other material recorded for SMiLE and the Boys objected. There seems to be what could be called an f-you involved too but the f-you wasn't Smiley. The f-you was Brian's junking SMiLE, with only his majority of one voting down the group's objections, in favor of doing Smiley.

Yeah, but the next week there was another group vote and the Boys voted down Brian's humor album and his health food album, over Brian's (and, in a surprise twist, Murry's) objections.  A Marilyn and Brian "duets" album was bandied about (apparently one track was completed, The Look of Love, and another song started, Our Happy Home) before Mike, always the source of the best ideas for Beach Boys albums, came up with the SMiley Smile album concept - "Brian, it's like Smile but it'll have humor too, a smiley smile!  The kids should really dig it the most!"  Mike took over most of the production, with an assist from Carl - listen to Mike telling Brian how he should play the organ intro to Gettin' Hungry on SOT 18.  Thank God somebody responsible like Mike was looking after the Beach Boys legacy and keeping them connected to their core audience, the ten to fifteen year olds!

Let's see....Brian = victim....check...group = assholes...check.....must be true.

The intro to Gettin' Hungry scares the sh*t out of me every time I hear it. It's just so loud, especially after the peacefulness of Wind Chimes.

Peter thank for the time you put into this post. We are touching on things that are hard for any family to talk about let alone people in the public eye. It is hard to say that something as sensitive as mental illness or addiction is black and white. Yes Brian today is the best he can be considering what he has been through. Yet in the early stages of his addiction or illness I guess he "seems" more together. There was less lost at that point as far as the damage the drug use (perhaps Landy's especially) did to him.

Before I address your reply I want explain why I defend Brian and the Beach Boys from 67-73. I am tired of people saying Brian did nothing after Smile I dislike that the Beach Boys (including Brian) later used Brian's “condition” to explain why they declined from 67-73, if that is so why did they do so well overseas?  I think they all did terrible things to each other but at one time and even today there was a lot of friendship, and love. A classic dysfunctional family. I will again repeat that Desper, Fataar etc. mentioned that in the late 60s early 70s the band got along ok. Desper additionally felt it was because they were talking to each other instead of lawyers and says that he felt they got along fine until various members began living outside of LA.  I just think that for all the bickering during Pet Sounds and Smile Brian has owned up to his part in it. I just hate that his so-called supporters make him a martyr. If people hadn't of bugged Brian so much about Smile, or ignored his work of this era maybe his life would have taken a different turn. I just find that all the great things he and the Beach Boys did shouldn’t be limited to before 1967.


"Your point of view is that of a person, who, however well intended, does not understand mental illness or addictive disease"

Sadly I know of these things all too well. My best friend is a crack addict who hears voices. He has gotten worse despite treatment. I don't know Brian as anyone other then someone I interviewed once about his career and as a fan. Again I can only go on what I observe. My family has also dealt with depression that at times is quite severe. Thankfully we are all good currently but I do know what I am talking about here from first hand experience. Yet again I can only comment on Brian as to how he acted, or appeared on recordings, photos, or films.

"Brian was doing so called recreational drugs in 1965-marijuana, hashish, and also amphetamines. Combined with an undiagnosed bipolar condition, he was already altering his brain biochemically before he ever hit Pet Sounds. I think many people believe that Brian injured his brain ingesting LSD, but I would contend that it made an inherited proclivity for auditory hallucinations worse."

Agree totally

"Brian was doing cocaine by fall of 1967, although I believe his growing tendency toward being out of touch was in place in the winter of 66-67. I believe he began to lose touch with reality back then. He has told me this and other people close to him this as well. Addicts are secretive, and this is something that most people don't realize. Brian hid his worst drug ingestion from the people closest to him. People that saw the worst were his friends from 67 on."

Ok that too is fine but why would people generally push forward the date to the more mentioned 1968-9 era? I mean that doesn't diminish that he did the drug or became addicted only when. It's the motives here I question. Why bother to cover up something if it happened so soon afterwards

David Dalton's story is not exactly factual on other things, nor are his writings in general. He has things of interest to say, but like his book on the Stones the article is kind of sensationalistic. Besides we both know Brian could have been putting him on. They met again from what Dalton says. At the same time it could have happened exactly that way. We can't get in Brian's mind to find out if he was serious.

"He had nervous breakdowns in March and July of 67, and was hospitalized in fall of 68 and given the diagnosis, incorrectly, of being schizophrenic. He was given first generation anti psychotics for the first time. He has told friends of mine he was never the same after that period of institutionalization."

Ok we have dates here. Now how did you get something so exacting. Have you had access to medical reports? Now I am not asking to be sarcastic, but I am curious. Something happened in the fall of 68 for sure, but what. Carlin's book mentions it but says the facts can't be verified. Also go ahead to 1970 he is participating more and in better shape. Perhaps he had a temporary recovery? Brian said in 76 that his second breakdown was in Holland.  In 1988 he said 1971 is when he felt things start to slip. These correspond with how I see him in the late 60s early 70s. i.e. a man with problems but one who is still closer to a man in charge of his own life without crazy doctors’, conservators, Stan and Rocky etc.

He gave away his RIAA Awards in 1969 and dug a grave in his backyard.

Hal Blaine told me very clearly that the story has been misrepresented. He said basically that Brian was fine at the time. These were just presents to show how much he thought of Hal. He said Brian snuck one under a pillow for him as a surprise but took the rest home. Again he says Brian did this out of love not illness. The suicide attempts are more serious, and most agree that when Brian came home from Holland he was different. Understand though that as in poor taste as these might seem he was perhaps crying for attention or help more then seriously trying to kill himself. Again we cannot get in his head and I do see these as warning signs of what would happen later. I don’t take this lightly. Again what Brian said in 76 about Holland is a key.

"He started a business to escape the new BB contract in 69, and did everything he could to sabotage the signing, including painting his face when he was visited by the Warner Execs to see if he'd cooperate. Jasper Dailey told me he cried like a baby at the contract signing. He took the pictures and was there. Does that sound like a man who wants to be with The Beach Boys"

Your views as to why here are subjective. I still point to the 1971 “Surf’s Up incident as to when the group began to truly fall out with Brian. Desper’s book for instance details Brian’s level of activity in 1969-71 as far higher then previously reported.
Why he did the health food store was to do something for himself, but that doesn't mean it is an anti Beach Boys thing. The pictures of Brian I saw from that day don't show him crying. In one he is smiling broadly at Mike, and in the other just looks serious. I would have to see that. Not that it didn't happen again, I mean Brian had crying jags in 64 at that Euro Beer Hall and we have seen a pic of that.  Also I read this was the 1977 contract which makes a lot more sense I think. The green thing was his idea of humor, though it can be construed as a passive aggressive move. Again this is subjective.

"As for functioning better from 67-73, it is simply an earlier stage in the addictive illness. He was not medicated most of the time, and hiding the severity of his addiction from Marilyn. Carl told me that they didn't didn't realize how deep into addiction Brian was even in the Smile period, much less the later 60s and Early 70s. Brian was simply further along in his addictive illness in the later 70s, and had stopped trying to hide his addiction and his dissatisfaction with his BB life and his family life."

I am general because I don't have medical records are verifiable evidence. I can only go with what I get told or observe.

1 I think it would be stretching it to say Brian in 1970 was in any way shape or form in as bad of shape as 75.

2) Functionality is the most subjective of psychiatric determinations. In the DSM-IV, Global Affective Functioning is almost laughably subjective. I would contend that psychiatrically, Brian was far less functional in the late 60s and early 70s. I would contend that addictively, he was worse in 75 because his addictive disease had advanced much further along.

I did give examples here of how Brian was more functional 67-73, but you are right this is very subjective.

3) Weight was simply a cross addiction from the cocaine. It wasn't an indicator of anything other than a transfer of addiction from cocaine to overeating. Similar level of addiction to the late 60s and early 70s, he simply changed from mood altering chemicals to overeating.

This seems to have gone hand in hand. I think cocaine and the food addiction peaked in 74-5 and again 78-82. To me this doesn't seem to be something to separate but part of the overall decline. I am sure there were periods were one dominated over another though.

4) I'm sure Brian remembers good moments from the late 60s. The Friends album is a special moment for him, because when he needed help with finishing stuff on Wild Honey and Friends, the group stepped up to help him, even Murry.

Agreed he mentioned the teamwork as sticking out from then. Thus supporting how relations did improve at that time.


5) Brian wrote songs more than anything else musically from Wild Honey on. Carl tended to co-produce, and eventually took full production reigns on with 20/20.  He did not produce as much, and when he did, he tended not to finish what he started. A tour through the BBs archives will persuade you of this.

Not denying it I am just saying quality wise it is still what I consider his classic period artistically. Still the difference in Sunflower sonically to say Carl and The Passions is to me Brian's more active role. The stereo explosion meant that it got harder and harder to for him to make records without assistance of some sort for that reason alone.

6) The business meetings are where the decisions were made. Those are family matters and are considered private. The only hint you get is either by going down to the LA County Courthouse and reading through the court minutes, or through a few hints when people who did attend say how brutal they got. Anyone can talk about sessions, they are recorded. The business meetings weren't until Nick Grillo came along, God bless him.

Ok that is fair because I belive this is the only way to prove what went on then. Have you seen the records for yourself? Like I said earlier with the cocaine though, why move the date forward, why bother if the same dirt is being said with merely a different date attached. I still think that Brian had more say so over what he didn't or did do then Mike or anyone else. Brian would have never made Pet Sounds or Smiley Smile if he didn't push to change the music. He might have just thought fodda them, but that doesn't jibe with the Hawaii trip, the Smiley promotion, or the relative calm and harmony that seem to describe the sessions at his home studio.

7) No one, including Van Dyke knew how Brian was going to sequence Smile, or what he wanted that well, because he couldn't articulate his vision that well. I think that is one reason the group got scared and pulled the plug.

Well you are thinking along the same lines here but I would substitute Brian for the group. Though they may have shared his misgivings. Brian over the years expressed more doubt and anger about Smile then anyone else. HE lost faith in it, and after he did why would the group have any either.

8) Nope, Van Dyke is well regarded by all of the BBs as a true gentleman. After all he stepped aside and got out of the way of family business disagreements.

Ok but all I meant here is that they have sued people outside the family. Perhaps their liking for him is why he wasn't sued.

9) Smiley Smile was not Smile. When Smile's plug got pulled, Brian went into passive aggressive mode and put out the strangest, most uncommercial album by a group in the 60s. It was Brian's way of saying "up yours" to the BBs-

Totally subjective. I think it sounds rushed because they just wanted something out already. I think Brian's studio and the vibe there changed directions for him and the others from an artistic viewpoint. Smiley was a seemingly harmonious project. My point is, if Mike had the power to stop Brian from doing "uncommercial" music or anything else Smiley would have bit the dust. Perhaps it’s an up yours to Capitol.

10) If you've heard the tapes from Hawaii, you know they aren't suitable for release. A friend of mine saw the shows and Brian looked "strange" during both shows. The group was drugging that whole trip to Hawaii. There's a great summary of an assistant engineer talking about how loaded they ALL were in Hawaii. Brian was coming of a nervous collapse, and Hawaii was the idea to let him chill. By December he didn't recognize David Dalton and thought he was Phil Spector.

What live shows are? All are doctored before being put out.  I like those tapes Brian is in good voice and active. Even funny. They are far out and rough, but this is why I like the stuff. It is a very different Brian then you saw in the late 70s.  Already addressed the Dalton, but I think Hawaii was to cool everyone out and yes including Brian.

11) Brian was arguably more functional to the group in the 77-82 period as a musician if you count the simple number of appearances he made with the band compared with 67-73. I am not sure I would use that as an indicator of functioning, but one could.

We talked once many years ago and you described losing your respect of the Beach Boys as a group because they trotted Brian out like a circus bear. The work Brian did, his appearance, his voice, his cleanliness even is so much worse in 78-82. I will say 77 seemed like a fairly good year but after that no way.

I also feel the work Brian did in the early 70s is from a far more healthy man than the one who did Love You. That is subjective on my part.

Brian before Pet Sounds:

“Brian was doing LSD, marijuana, amphetamines, and hashish long before Pet Sounds. His use was fairly secretive, and I don't think any of the group had a clue until much later how many mood altering chemicals he was ingesting and how frequently. Your point about Brian's mental illness and fragile emotional nature is well taken. He WAS abused physically and emotionally as a child, as was Dennis. He retreated to his room initially to avoid the beatings and became the proverbial "Lost Child" in the addicted family. Brian hid his illness from people for many years. He fooled his family, his cousin, his friends, and his fellow musicians. Peter Carlin's book makes plain that his friends, only now, in hindsight can see the damage Murry did. “

You are right on thanks for considering what I said here. One thing though I do think Murry meant well, but he sure was a major factor of his son’s later dysfunction

“Marilyn is absolutely accurate that the damage did not happen overnight. But the handsome, talented man she married was going well into the second stage of addictive illness by 1965, and by 1966, Marilyn could see the changes. When Brian cross-addicted to amphetamines and then to cocaine he simply traded in a Ford Taurus stimulant for a Lincoln Continental stimulant. When Marilyn was finally somewhat successful in cutting off his cocaine sources in 1974, he again cross-addicted to overeating. Then back to cocaine, then to alcohol and overeating. The maddening thing about an addict like Brian is that you may think you have him controlled by getting his sources away from him, but then he cross addicts. I think all of the people you mention have valuable perspectives to contribute. Brian Wilson is a chameleon. He will show you whatever he thinks you need in order to get his immediate needs met. Such is the nature of an abused adult from a family where there was an out of control abusive father.”

You are right on here too. Brian changed the second he picked up a joint.


“There are no heroes in this saga there are no villains. Only tragic circumstances, that like Peter Carlin points out, have resolved into the sweetest possible ending such a sad story can have.”

Well while we may quibble on details, I agree with your beautifully put conclusion. I suppose you wonder why I defend the Brian and Beach Boys of 67-73. I just see them as still getting along decently, and Brian still having most of his creative spark intact with none of the damage evident in 76 on. He certainly was getting into bad habits, there were plenty of warning signs but I still feel that the bottom only completely fell out after Murry died. As Carlin wrote he kept his son's grounded.

Wait...so MIKE LOVE PRODUCED SMILEY SMILE?! Interesting...

More than produced - it was almost a solo Mike album!  Why do you think "Gettin Hungry" was released as by Brian Wilson and Mike Love as a "duo" single?  (It should have read Mike Love and Brian Wilson, though)

So it could fail in the marketplace because they didn't want their new label to be successful, remember?  Mike's f-you to the band no doubt.

Exactly!  See Cam, we can agree on something.  Mike realized this Brother label thing was just a communist conspiracy hatched by the Vosse Posse while on drugs and wanted to sabotage it and get back to Capitol Records.

Maybe the success of Good Vibrations made Brian complacent. Maybe he got lazy, just like Murray said he would. He hung out with his stoner friends and wasted time on nonsense like the Jasper tracks and silly conversations and skits.

Sure, he cut a lot of material but where did it get him? His behavior during Smile would continue for the rest of his career. He’d always needed Carl to finish for him. Maybe his mental illness is to blame. Maybe it’s the drugs. Regardless, I don’t feel the Boys were to blame for the demise of Smile. Mike is right. to be angry that he's being blamed. He’s been labeled the scapegoat. Sure, maybe he didn’t like the words, but he sang ‘em. They’re right there on the record. H&V and Cabin Essence. He did his job. He might have complained, but he certainly sang those words and sang them well.

When did they know Brian was done? As early as December when Carl wrote a list of tracks for Smile and sent them to Capitol? That’s hard to swallow, but it may very well be true. Smiley Smile was the Beach Boys taking over. I don’t think Brian was or still is capable of finishing anything. So they took producers credit and got an album out pronto, since Brian was incapable. Smile was a mess. All they had was a bunch of unfinished fragments. They didn't  know what to do with them. They were Brian's. The songs that were “complete” and had vocals from the Smile era are the only ones that turned up on Smiley. H&V, Vegetables, Wonderful, Wind Chimes. They were the only ones finished. So those are the ones they used. Makes sense to me. The Boys were familiar with them since they had worked on the vocals and the tracks had been completed. The rest of the tapes were all over the place. Cabin Essence turned out to be finishable, once Carl got to it. Child probably never even had lyrics written for it. Van and Brian too busy goofing off with silly nonsense. There was no completed track for SU. OMP was a piece of crap. So those cuts were disgarded. It was clear Brian lost it. It was over.

So Brian played his new organ and they knocked out some songs in a week and got Smiley on the shelves. We badmouth the Boys for dismissing Brian as a liability. Well, maybe he is. We love him, but they wanted to look like a professional band, and Brian couldn’t get with the program and by the late 70's he couldn’t even sing on key any more. He can still write masterpieces, but it took Carl and the gang to bring the majority of his works post-Smile to fruition. It’s sad, but it’s true. Who can say for sure why. Drugs, laziness, hostility. Whatever.

I know we are hesitant to give the Boys their due, but we should. We should applaud the Boys for keeping the summer alive at all, because Brian didn't seem to be able to. Brian's demise was not their fault.

Dead on, and the whole Brian/genius thing was a shill.  Mike was the genius and Brian was a front so Mike could squeeze royalities out of Murry for the music because he knew Murry would beat the crap out of any non-family members [with a 2x4 upside the ear onto a dinnerplate], when he wasn't busy stomping new-born kittens around the neighborhood, instead of paying royalties for music to a non-family member. Mike actually double-dipped when he sued Brian, which was really him, in'90 over non-payment of royalties and Mike never paid himself for the back royalties he had already collected. Pretty crafty.