The Smiley Smile Message Board

So a friend of mine told me that john lennon once said that Mike Love was a 'jerk'.

I was just wondering if this was true  :)

No.

Done a little research and it's true

He created a TV miniseries full of revisionist history to glorify his own contributions to the band and take credit for a lot of things he never actually did. He also used it to give the impression that John Lennon wanted to jam with him, although Lennon is quoted as calling him a "jerk'

Actually, it is from a quote by Van Dyke Parks, regarding the made-for-TV movie about The Beach Boys (Mike Love was involved in it):

"What I saw on that show about Brian Wilson was false, and that's all I really need to say," he concludes. "I guarantee you it was a pack of lies.  And I'll tell you something -- I'll give you one final clean piece of evidence. The audience was led to believe by that movie that John Lennon wanted to jam with Mike Love.  Well, I was with John Lennon one time, and he told me that he and Paul thought that Mike Love was - and these are the words John Lennon used - 'a jerk.'  The Beatles thought Mike Love was a jerk.  So there are obviously two different impressions of that meeting.  Mike Love has one and John Lennon had another.  So, I'm submitting John Lennon's recollection to you since he's no longer here to do it himself."

So, I say, believe it or not.

On a non-serious note, here is a apt blog link: http://mikesabigjerk.blogspot.com/.

EDIT: The above mentioned blog is making me double over.  Direct quote: "Mike has a pet giraffe he keeps in his apartment. His name is Crouchy."  It's absurd, but I can't help laughing.

ANOTHER EDIT: Quote: "Mike's best friend is a pencil. He named it Kyle, and he has it write out, "You're cool, Mike" over and over again."

"Van Dyke Parks is the biggest butthole in the world".

There's an account of the Beatles time in India in "Many Years From Now," the Paul McCartney biography by his pal, Barry Miles.  Paul actually seemed rather amused by Mike, saying he was a Sgt. Bilko at the Maharishi camp, always ready with spare film, batteries, or whatever people needed, as long as they paid him for it.    No mention at all of Mike being a jerk.

The "jerk" is from John lennon as quoted by Van dyke Parks. It's not from Macca.

I wouldn't believe everything Van Dyke says.

Probably right but on the other hand it's not very unlikely that Mike is declared a "jerk".

Yeah, but John told Van Dyke that Paul also thought Mike was a jerk.  My point was, maybe John was just speaking for himself, not Paul.  Van Dyke was also hanging out with John when he was in the lost weekend period (Van was at the table the night of the infamous nightclub incident), and John didn't have the happiest view of anything at that time in his life.  In any case, I don't think Mike Love loomed as large in his psyche as Van Dyke's, so it's more of a dismissive thing than a condemnation.  John never had to deal with Mike other than meeting him in India.  Van, on the other hand, had extensive experience.

Wife beater, jealous of more acomplished bandmembers, manipulative...











John could be a jerk but he was a good musician.  ::)

Did anyone visit the Mike Love is a Jerk blog?

I did, I didnt really get it...:shrug

It's tongue in cheek.  It basically creates imagined scenarios involving Mike, and accenting his 'jerkiness'.  It's a one note joke, but some of the stuff made me fall off my chair:

'Mike ran into some Japanese tourists who wanted directions to McDonald's. "McDonald's? Where is?" they asked.

Mike decided to have some fun with them. "It's up that way three blocks, then make a right, then two lefts, then it's on your right."

He was lying. In fact, the McDonald's was down the other way two blocks, then make a left, then two rights, then it's on your left.

What Mike didn't realize is that his bogus directions led instead to the local chamber of commerce, where the Japanese tourists got coupons for buy-one-get-one-free McFlurrys with the purchase of a Big Mac. And there was another McDonald's right next door. So he actually led them where they wanted to go and saved them $1.29 each in the process.

It would've been a happy ending, except that, as they walked next door to the McDonald's, one of the tourists got bitten by a squirrel.

They vowed never to visit America again.'

Where does it say it is about Mike Love?

Hmm...this is where we all find out a deep, dark secret...

...I never learned how to read.  :'( :-D

What a stupid thread.

I would acknowledge your post, Jason, but, as you know...

...I never learned how to read.

How sad.  I'm losing my mind, as well.

Here's one: Was Dennis Wilson really a racist who hated black people?

Frank Stallone thought so.

j/k

But seriously? Was he really a racist?

Lennon could be a "jerk" too, but I don't think he felt that way. I have read two books on the Beatles in India and Mike comes off fairly well in both. Paul has never said a harsh world about Love. Van Dyke is someone who I used to consider a gentleman. The 2000 movie does not make Van Dyke look bad at all to me. I thought his character was one of the few really good parts. Very funny and witty. I don't like the 2000 movie much but Parks came out ok. His interviews after the movie and after Mike's Mojo interview sounded like bitter ramblings. He lost my respect becvause he damn well knows his conflicts with Brian helped kill Smile as much as anything with Mike. Mike has ALWAYS said nice things about Parks. So what if they had a disagreement in 1966 let it go. Van Dyke played on Kokomo and SIP so he must have had some kind of rapport with Mike at one point. I think Mike has done some dumb things but I consider Van Dyke to be someone who is vindictive and he let Brian down by not toughing it out with him.  Mike didn't write the damn movie either and in fact said outright that a few elements bothered him. Van Dyke is very talented, so is Love, but without Brian getting them where they are would they have made it on their own.

Once upon a time Van Dyke was 24 years old and had a promising solo career waiting to happen. 40 years later he doesn't even release albums anymore - I guess all the buddies he had in Warner already left the building.  And he's only remembered nowadays for the lyrics he wrote for someone else in 1966. His bitterness is understandable.

Perhaps understandable to a degree but he has had nothing but praise for his work with and without Brian. I guess it may be the sad but true fact that getting close to fame is worse then staying a semi professinal.

I've read that was one of the reasons, why he bonded with Manson, who didn't like blacks either. He once said that Aretha Franklin looked like bad, even though he acknowledged, that she was a good singer. Funny because I think she's quite beautiful


Why is it such a problem if Lennon thought Mike was a jerk, a lot of other people have said so too. Is it because it's a sign that Beatles didn't totally adore Beach Boys?

Søren

In that same interview he said that Brian also doesn't look good. It was all about how people who don't look very good can make music, that is very beautiful

Yeah that's the one, something about Aretha Franklin being someone you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley and Nat King Cole looking like a piece of sh*t.

Søren

Doesn't mean he was a racist because he thought certain black singers were unattractive. I asked Fred Vail and Ed Roach if Dennis was a racist and they said it was bull. His closeness to Ricky and Blondie should quiet all doubters. Gaines is the only one who said Denny didn't like blacks.

Gaines also says that Dennis had a recurring fantasy about being raped by black man in jail. I'm not joking and it really is in the 'Heroes And Villains' book, so the moderators should not be mad at me.

I agree. But I guess also, that Mike never liked rival lyricists.

No I am sure Mike didn't like other people writing with Brian. In my eyes he had a right to ask about lyrics. I am not saying he was always cool about it, but the guy has a right to know what he is singing about. Frankly he Love worked as hard on Pet Sounds and Smile as any of the others besides Brian. If Mike had so much power over lyrics and keeping things "straight"  Smiley would have never come out. Cabinessence would have never come out etc. Van Dyke was briliant but I understand why it would be an adjustment going from even Tony Asher to him.

Dennis was a huge Marvin Gaye fan, wasn't he?  Caroused with Billy Preston?  Worked with Blondie and Rickie?

bump

So some of Dennis' best friends were black. No offense to anyone, but this sounds like a discussion that would have been edgy about thirty years ago. If Stephen Gaines is the lead witness against Dennis, I'd let it go to the jury without a rebuttal.

I hate to see this sort of discussion where Mike has to get bashed by one group and then Van Dyke has to get bashed by the other. I'll buy either one of 'em all the beer they want, any time.

said like a champ, surfer joe. :king

There is the American Band footage where Paul is looking strangely over at Mike while Mike sits down in Carls lap, and is later handfed by a woman which probably made everyone nervous.

isnt there a john lennon interview out somewhere that says he didnt recognize meeting Dennis in a bar?

Denny introduced himself & lennon thought he was a mechanic or something? help me

I think Lennon believed Dennis was the owner of some clothes-shop that was also in town and was owned by some Wilson. I believe he said to Dennis "I like your clothes" or something and Dennis just went outside

That's it! thanks

Van Dyke was upset by how Brian was depicted in the tvmovie. His relationship with Mike went south (again) after the SIP sessions, when Mike again criticized the 'over an over' lyric in a rather hostile manner. Van Dyke is hard on himself for not toughing it out with Brian on Smile, Mike has never changed his tune about Smile or anything for that matter. And he has said LOTS of dumb things. Van would have had a fine career in music without Brian, Mike wouldn't have.

Just getting the fact's straight.

You mean opinions don't you?

Smiley Van Dyke and Mike come from two different ends of the musical spectrum. I don't agree with you though. Mike and Van Dyke BOTH don't do much for me outside of their work with Brian. With Brian I enjoy them quite a bit. The remark made at sessions was lighthearted. I think he got mad at Love for welching on a plane rental.  I still don't think Parks should be so petty even if Mike was or is.

Van Dyke is in interesting company on the forthcoming Joanna Newsom album Ys (Drag City). The Guardian's description:

A glance at the support personnel involved is enough to make you spill your mead. Brian Wilson's lieutenant Van Dyke Parks did the stark string arrangements over a period of eight months. Cantankerous analogue producer Steve Albini (Nirvana) recorded it. Experimental guru Jim O'Rourke mixed it. Most jaw-dropping of all is Newsom herself, a fearless original. She wields a harp (as she did on her debut) and a poetic menagerie of animals, meteors, fear and joy. Marimbas and horse skulls flesh out the harp, vocals and strings on these five long tracks; her creepy boyfriend Bill Callahan (Smog) chips in with backing vocals. Newsom's eccentric child-witch delivery has been tempered somewhat since her debut but remains unmistakable; her dense, storytelling lyrics faintly recall Patti Smith's surging poetry, in texture if not in vocabulary. With weird folk and neo-medievalism all the rage in arty circles, Newsom has decisively outclassed all comers on one of the albums of the year.

The tracks I've heard sounds amazing. Van Dyke is still doing great work.

Hmm, I think this deserves a new thread somewhere. I awaited this album since last year, and the news about van dykes involvment was some sort of dream collaboration come true. I have, as lots of other fans, already got hold of the leaked album, and will buy it on double lp when it is released in november (recorded totally analogue, mixed at abbey road). It is amazing. Van dyke parks arrangements filled out the songs perfectly.

Your right, sorry.

I was just trying to remind people that there's more to Van Dyke than bad vibes and bitterness towards Mr Love. Parks is still doing great work and has contributed to one of the most interesting and rewarding albums of 2006.

Anything involving vinyl get my approval.

I am not trying to put down Parks in other areas. He and Brian are "wonderful" together. I just think going out of your way to complain about something is not right. People will say that hey Milke and Al, and Brian etc. have done this too. Well that is true to a point, but I never heard them devoting a whole interview or writing a letter to an editor to make someone look foolish.

Was it the MOJO interview where Mike said he now wished SMiLE had come out...and that whatever SMiLE was supposed to be, it was a lot better than Smiley Smile?

Well then, never read Peter Ames Carlin's new book or you'll read a whole raft of others talking down Mike a lot worse than Van ever did. For instance Stan Love, who is surprisingly harsh about Mike.

As to their musical merits, if Van had only done his first record and nothing else, he still would be leagues ahead of Mike's solo output. Let's not forget his work with Randy Newman, Phil Ochs, his soundtracks, his incredible Orange Crate Art (one of my favorites), his vast accomplishments as an arranger, and how about a little group called Little Feat that he produced!!!?

As lyricists they both are good, but very different. Mike IS a good lyricist, but I prefer that good old 'acid alliteration' over boy-girl any day of the week. Beyond that, Mike (or anybody to be fair) could only hope for a fraction of Van's talent.

Another thing -- Van's angry comments about Mike are nothing compared to Brian's, or Al's, but I would hardly call them petty. He feels, rightly or wrongly, that Mike drove SMiLE off course and ultimately helped sink it. I'm not trying to restart THE THREAD, but those are his feelings and he is entitled to them.

99% of Parks' fame comes from the lyrics he wrote for an unreleased Beach Boys album when he was 23. Now that he's 63 and his solo career is basically dead we can't blame him for being petty and cranky.  ;D

Whatever part of Van Dyke's fame (fame: genuflect when you say that) comes from his lyrics for SMiLE is well justified, in my opinion.  He wrote some of the best, most original, most innovative lyrics in pop music history.  I'm not usually a huge lyrics guy, but his work is pretty close to half the show on SMiLE for me.

I think a pretty big chunk of Mike's fame also comes from his work with Brian, and is equally well-justified, in my opinion.

If there's a cut-off for Van Dyke to have his own views on his experiences, and he's past that cut-off because he's not on the charts right now- accepting that premise- whose views and memories should he be assigned?  Maybe the group of us on this board should get to decide what he says, thinks, and remembers.

The point I was making is that I thought it was odd for Van Dyke to go out of his way to make his comments by writing a letter and doing an article JUST to bash Mike. Sure the others did it worse at times, he has a right to say his side, but the way he did it seems  petty. I like the Carlin book because Mike has his side aired, Stan and everyone else did it in context. The movie like I said to me didn't make Van Dyke look all that bad. Mike did not write the movie. Mike said he was uncomfortable with parts of the movie. Mike did promote the movie and consult, but Brian was involved with the film too, to the point where he recorded new demos for it.  Mike talked very kindly about Van Dyke in his Mojo interview. Mike has made no secret about his reservations about the lyrics which Mike did back down and sing. Mike has done many things that I think are bone headed. Mike has been a jerk at times in my eyes. I just don't think Van Dyke should attack Mike for his personal viewpoint. If Mike had said "that jerk Parks got Brian hooked", then Van Dyke had a right. I just think Parks has shown himself to be better then that and it really changed my view of him.

Van Dyke can say whatever he wants, more power to him. However, I can also say that he's petty. 

But it's just my opinion. Brian Wilson never told me that Van Dyke's petty, back in the early eighties.  ;)

I found that a little pettier still, but just MY opinion.  No harm done.

Man, this was as petty as I could be without being kicked off the forum. Too many "I don't want to criticize Mike but he would be still pumping gas if not for his talented cousin" posts.

I guess the answer to that is to bash Van Dyke Parks...

Forgive me for returning to the topic of this chain, but my understanding is that Mr. Love brought cases of his finest Sunset Strip rock star duds to the ashram and changed several times a day to show one and all what a fab dude he was.  From the photos, his boss duds, combined with a comb-over that is absolutely Trumpian in nature,  cut him a figure that, coupled with his pleasing personal charm, earned him the reported moniker of "that a**hole from America" from all others present.
Back to trashing Van Dyke, fun-seekers.

Where are you getting your info?

Yeah, and the Beatles were so down to earth, right?

I figured he'd be very sad if left out of our daily vitriol.  ;D

Come on, it's not like he's above Beach Boys bullshit.

1. Someone who was there.
2. Probably not- bet they were referred to around the M's place as "those as*holes from the Mersey" or "the Merseyas*holes."  Only one that was nice was good old Donovan, who knew not to f*** with the formula.
Nevertheless, I suspect that the Lennon quote is accurate.  Too bad he didn't live to hear Mike's Rock and Roll HOF induction speech.

Wasn't meaning to lecture anybody...just have never really felt that ol' VDP was one of those asking for it. To me, he's about as offensive as Carl or Marilyn.

My offer to buy any of 'em a beer stands; I love 'em all;  they need fear no rotten vege-tables from my direction. I'm trying to think of anyone in the Beach Boys whole story I don't feel gratitude and affection for, and coming up blank.

Van Dyke's talents are still recognised and in demant. Not only on the forthcoming Joanna Newsom album but on the brand new (and wonderful) album by Scissor Sistors as well.

Really? I just saw them yesterday on TV, never heard of them before, and I liked it...

He'd know. Lennon was a wanker! Imagine no possessions? Sure, after you John!

Let he among us who is perfect cast the first "JERK", eh?

Van Dyke obviously does not like Love and has a grudge. I don't think anything he says about him is to be taken seriously.

Just because someone calls somebody a jerk once doesn't mean they don't like them. I've thought my friends were jerks at times. We all have "jerk" in us.

What's the point of badmouthing Mike Love now? Why didn't he speak up back in the 60's?
Yeah, I mean why didn't he stand up to Mike Love 40 years ago and defend his lyrics and help Brian finish Smile, if he feels so passionate about it? It's a little late.

That's why Parks pisses me off too. He left Brian in the lurch, worked with Mike several times over the years on seemingly peaceful terms and now hates him? I say Mike in even asking him to work with him was being the bigger man here. Remember for all his bitching Love DID sing Heroes, and Cabinessence, etc. Mike may have been rotten about Smile, but he did his job.  Van Dyke didn't even try to explain his work. Now it may be easy to swallow rock lyrics that aren't conventional, but in 1966 Last Train To Clarksville and Winchester Cathedral were HUGE. Untill he started trashing Mike in 2000 I liked Van Dyke, but whose the one who walked out of Smile Love or Parks? Yes I know Mike hurt Brian too, but no one can deny that he sang his parts, and sang them well.

It's definitely strange that Van Dyke's hatred for Mike has increased in intensity lately...maybe it was that "American Family" Stamos/Love TV movie that sent him over the edge (and rightfully so).  As far as I can tell, things between Van Dyke and Mike weren't all that bad before the movie.  And then of course when Brian decided to resurrect Smile, a lot of the resentment towards Mike only intensified. 

It is true that even though he complained, Mike sang all of his parts (and did a fantasitc job).  And clearly Van Dyke regrets abandoning Brian at a time when Brian only needed support.  It must have been a tough situation to be in, since he knew Brian needed the support but at the same time he was having to defend his lyrics and take crap from Mike.  In BD he said more than once that he wishes that he had stayed.  If he had, who knows, maybe Brian would have found a way to finish Smile.  I guess with all the time that has gone by, he realizes the impact that his departure had. 

I believe that Van Dyke leaving was a decisive factor in the death of Smile. If Van Dyke had not abandoned the project and been more of a cheerleader for the album it probably would have gotten finished somehow. Who knows what would have happened after. But I think Brian could of hung in there the extra month or two needed to complete the album.

Remember that Mike complained about Tony Asher's lyrics as well. I don't know that he was more intense with Van Dyke, but Asher stuck it out. But I do not care at all how Van Dyke or the Smile music was portrayed in the movie. They made it appear that it was all random sound effects under influence of drugs. Why couldn't they have some 'Cabinessence' or 'Surfs Up' sounds? Or even 'Mrs O'Leary's Cow'?