The Smiley Smile Message Board

We know that there was a planned bonus disc for MIC which was to include the Brian mono instrumental mix of Child (the 3 ' version) followed by the instrumental track of Little Bird which would show how Brian recycled the chorus into that track.  Do we know what else was to be included on the bonus disc?  Hopefully both tracks will show up on the Friends copyright 50th anniversary release!

Yes! I forgot about reading this in a recent issue of ESQ. Is that where you heard about this as well? I am pretty bummed to see that this version "Child Is Father Of The Man" somehow didn't make either The SMiLE Sessions or Made In California, but I could see, using your logic that it would be sensible to release it alongside an instrumental "Little Bird" as they were planning to on Made In California, instead on a new set.

But yeah, about what else woulda been on this bonus disc? I would love to know! Just instrumentals and alternates? Or maybe something like the last disc on Made In California where alongside the instrumentals and whatnot, you also got stuff like "Where Is She?" and "Barnyard Blues" and others. Hopefully somebody knows...

Yes Mark mentioned it in the Smiley Smile issue of ESQ.  What other treasures were scheduled to be on it, that we may never get?

If the "I've Got A Friend" instrumental track was going to be on it then I'm seriously bummed.

In the Winter 2013 edition of ESQ, Mark mentioned that the bonus disc would've included unspecified backing and accapella tracks. At the time he was hoping that it would be released at some stage.

Good lord...most of the set is a bonus disc!

I'd argue the majority of the set is a really long "best of" compilation, with a bunch of "bonus disc" material sprinkled through.

I do appreciate that they largely avoided duplicating previous archival releases when selecting the "bonus" material for MIC. I still think, while the Smile "Vocal Montage" is a *stunning* piece, it took up too much space and they should have stuck something else in there considering it had been released already less than two years prior.

They've really got to move to an expansive download program for both studio and live material. Literally 100+ discs worth of material they could release there, and *without* scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Exactly — I thought that was the whole reason for disc 6 (and a good chunk of disc 5)!

The MIC set is a trove of amazing material.

And while a boon to collectors/historians who don't mind buying 6 CDs to get about 2 to 2 1/2 discs of material they didn't already own, it was objectively a poorly marketed/timed set (not given a strong push by Capitol, and of course WAAAY late to piggyback on the C50 festivities), and seemingly was too "deep" for casual fans and conversely forced the more enthusiastic/hardcore fans to buy 3-4 CDs of material they already owned many times over.

To be clear, this was almost surely the *only* way they were ever going to get 60+ previously unreleased tracks released as a "mainstream" sort of release (though eventually we got a similar, more focused item with the "Sunshine Tomorrow" set). They essentially snuck in as much archival material as they could onto a release that Capitol was, I guess, marketing more as a sort of "coffee table book/holiday gift" sort of item.

Forgive my rambling in advance, maybe this should be a separate topic post.

There was an old short film I saw about a guy wandering through a desert area dying of thirst. He found an abandoned pump connected to a water well. On top of the pump sat a bottle of water, with a note attached telling anyone who needed water to "prime the pump" by pouring the water down the well to get the pump flowing. And once that was done, the pump would put out all the life-saving water someone would need, provided they left that bottle full once they got what they needed, so the next people in dire need of water could access the well.

So the guy dying of thirst decided to drink the bottle first, instead of priming the pump with it as the note instructed, and then madly started working the pump to no avail. He died of thirst in that desert because he drank the bottle but didn't prime the pump, a simple act which would have kept the water flowing for as long as he needed it.

I guess I'm wondering two things: Hasn't the BRI vault pump been primed enough in order to somehow get the water flowing from the well in terms of full-on widespread releases of vault material? It feels like it's flowing to some degree, but it also feels like the bottle of water is being consumed instead of getting to the actual well.

And I'm wondering too what exactly it is that is holding it up. It has to be close to 15 years ago that an online Beach Boys archival website was actually on the table and in the works, for fans to download vault material. Then it just died.

Instead we do get the archival "copyright" releases, some online-only and others as actual CD product, but the vaults still contain a lot of extra takes and various sessions which I'm sure both the completists and casual fans would like to hear.

Instead it still feels like we cannot get certain releases without having to piggyback onto them another release of Fun Fun Fun or Kokomo, or whatever other hits get repackaged.

I guess I'm left wondering how much more the "pump" needs to be primed before we get the kind of comprehensive, catch-all sets AND live releases which other bands and artists have been offering now for 15 years or more.

And I still think one way to bridge the gap AND get more widespread media/press attention would be to release some sets to the public as a "The Making Of..." kind of series, where full session tapes exist for classics like California Girls or I Get Around or whatever the case...and put it out for casual and diehard fans to hear the creative process at work that went into the hits. I know I've said it before, but I think it's a money in the bank idea where fans wouldn't get edited or redacted tapes of these sessions but would be able to dive into the full deal.

If those get attention, if released the right way, the pump would be considered sufficiently primed for more.

I think having the most familiar hits given this treatment would get more attention than hearing some scratchy, half-assed demos of songs from 1973 that never went anywhere. But once the pumps are primed, that stuff can have more of a market too for the diehards.

And it's not like other bands have not proven by now that there is a market for fanbases to log onto a web repository and purchase audio of full live shows, untouched and unedited. Pearl Jam was doing this over 15 years ago. The Dead are still doing it, as are many others.

Done the right way, The Beach Boys could do it with archival material. It may be hard to separate Mike's 180+ shows per year touring activities from the original Beach Boys, but damn there has to be a market for untouched tapes of the old concerts.

GF, I wish you were in charge of archival releases.  ;D I had a similar idea. My idea was to take a specific date(month, day, and year), and just release the entire recording session for that date, warts and all.

I'm all for everything and anything in bulk getting released, but I'd MUCH rather see cultivated sets of archival material focusing on years/eras rather than full session tapes for familiar songs.

I'd rather see a disc full of "Brother Rarities" than a disc of every raw take of "California Girls." All of that can come too, and a vast online archival program would be a great place for unedited (more or less) session tapes.

I think the hardcore/diehard fans have waited long enough for bridging the gap between casual and hardcore fans. Make no mistake, I'm not blind to the economics of what sells and what doesn't. Unreleased Beach Boys material doesn't top the charts, no question.

But there is a hardcore fan base that is large enough to move enough "digital units" of archival programs that we don't have to keep taking stuff that is intended for hardcore fans and try to target casual fans.

I think it's time for numerous discs of mid-late 70s tracks. Releasing "Carry Me Home" will be much more of a game-changer and "cred" enhancer for indie/new fans and all of that than releasing more early-mid 60s session tapes.

Obviously, there can be *many* tiers to all of this stuff. Hits comps for the casual fans. Compiled boxed sets (whether digital-only or not) to give an overview of an era (e.g. a Brian-focused "Bedroom Tapes" sort of box, a group-focused 70s/80s box, a "Live" box), and then an online archive can delve into raw session tapes.

But the thing that's going to garner the most attention and be a true "game changer" for the band's reputation isn't going to be a release of the unedited "California Girls" or "Fun Fun Fun" session tapes. It's going to be the 87 Dennis and Brian (and Carl, and the other guys) tracks nobody has ever heard. It'll be the "'Til I Die" demo, the unedited take of "This Whole World", "Carry Me Home", all that stuff that hasn't come out that was on that "Proposed Brother Bonus Tracks" set of discs that guy found.

HeyJude, I agree with you completely. I'd personally rather--by far rather--have first-time issuing of still unreleased songs than sessions. (I'm fine with more sessions, too: they're interesting. But I don't listen to them for fun or repeatedly.)

Considering the virtual lack of cost associated with digital-only releases, it's absurd they haven't at least done that. The big box sets are great, but they don't have to go that route. The pure profit they could make off of online sales ... it's crazy they haven't taken advantage, even if they might only move a few thousand copies.

I'm in complete agreement with HeyJude on this. Prioritising the release of sessions for popular songs, or indeed any songs by the Beach Boys over 'Til I Die (Demo), Carry Me Home, the unreleased tracks to which HeyJude was referring etc. Boys would be injudicious, I feel. An online archive, much like Massive Attack's one, for example, is a great idea.

An extended 1968-75 compilation album, or archival material focusing on each year/era separately would do justice to the Beach Boys. I personally would like to see another "Made in California" box set, but classier (more 'mature' album cover and title') and without the unnecessary material, i.e. what's already released.

I'll agree to disagree but you guys just didn't seem to get what I was saying.

No doubt there are things in those vaults for the hardcore fans.

But I ask this in all seriousness...Where is the market right now in terms of projected hard sales numbers and potential buyers for material dating from the period of albums which are at this point mostly unknown even though they've been reissued on CD a few times over? So Tough, Holland, Surf's Up...in the US these albums outside the kind of people that read these boards are not exactly sales powerhouses, and I don't say that as a commentary on the albums or the reasons why, but it's feeling like the hard truth at this point.

So a marketing pitch to release *demos* from an era where there is all but an ignorance of the albums that were released, as some seem to want, and demos that sound scratchy and low fi and full of wow and flutter at that...how is that a game changer for the band?

People want what's familiar.

I'm saying if you bank on the familiar to *prime the pump* for more to come, you stand a better chance of generating interest with that over releasing "The Bedroom Tapes" or whatever misnomer was applied to that non-existent collection.

That "Brother Rarities" material? Yes, some is stunningly terrific. Some is crap that only completists would want. Should it come out? I say a resounding yes. But I'd also say more of it needs to be trimmed off those original lists because it simply isn't that good.

But there are things in the vaults that ARE that good.

But you cannot expect fans who either don't own, don't like, or don't know "Carl And The Passions" to buy demos and outtakes from that or various alt mixes from 15 Big Ones if they don't even have a familiarity or a fondness for with the actual released material.

The best way to introduce this stuff is to start with the familiar music - almost to a fault.

Would people listen to the California Girls complete sessions? I think a lot would buy it to hear them once...and isn't that the idea? As long as they buy it.

Then see how many people would buy demos from 71-76 and beyond in comparison.

Live shows from that 70's era? Completely different situation all around. Different marketing too. A much easier sell.

And yes...the plans for an online "shop" of vault material was on the books around the early to mid 2000's, in fact if I recall they had a domain purchased for it. It still hasn't happened.

Did the Pet Sounds Sessions and Smile Sessions box sets sell enough to be considered successful?

Absolutely.

And those are comprised of mostly raw session tapes with the musicians running through takes, albeit edited and streamlined a bit.

I'd like to see as up to date as possible sales numbers in the US market of the following, if they even exist or if anyone has them:

GV box set from '93
Hawthorne CA 2-disc set
Pet Sounds Sessions
Smile Sessions
Made In California
Sunshine Tomorrow

If those sales number are anything resembling the notion that they sold well enough to be justified, then I'd say the pump has been primed enough times to start pumping out more material.

We can argue all day what kind of material that should be, whether it be another Loop De Loop demo or some sh*t that was left off Keepin The Summer Alive or a "hot mix" of Rock And Roll Music...but I think there is no doubt there is a market for something to exist.

A better-selected "Brother Rarities" would be a great one eventually, but imagine the industry buzz alone if people who have no clue what the "Sea Of Tunes" label is or was would have access to raw tapes of Brian producing some of the most legendary tracks of the past 50+ years presented in full, sequential order and in superb quality. Other artists have done similar, but not quite on the same scale. Yet all of those projects have gotten positive reviews as far as I know, especially among the hardcore fans of those groups.

Headquarters Sessions, anyone? It inspired Rhino to go even further and make deluxe editions of more Monkees material which also was pretty successful.

Consider how much "Headquarters Sessions" type material is in the Beach Boys vaults from the most well-known Capitol years which has not seen the light of day in terms of official releases.

Speaking only for myself, I was in agreement with HeyJude not because of any real business plan, but based on what I want to hear most. (And I was just pointing out that it could be released for nothing, which is a bonus.) I wasn't saying that was the best plan for the band's success. Most of what you're talking about has to do with what you think would be the best for the band, for its reputation, for its popularity.

So, no, I "cannot expect fans who either don't own, don't like, or don't know "Carl And The Passions" to buy demos and outtakes from that or various alt mixes from 15 Big Ones if they don't even have a familiarity or a fondness for with the actual released material." But my response, anyway, has nothing to do with them. It was coming from a proper, luthercentric universe.

Cap'n...I was replying to this specifically:



I fail to see how a longer take of "This Whole World" is going to be any more of a game-changer or reputation booster for the band than the song as officially released itself. Have the numerous releases and re-releases of "This Whole World" or anything similar in the released and remastered forms as the band intended done anything in terms of being a game-changer or boosting the band's legacy? I'd say no. If people hadn't been as familiar with it and happened to hear it on a reissue, and liked it, that han't translated into anything beyond that in terms of building or changing the legacy.

I'll go back to hard truths, at least as I see them: The early 70's material is and has been readily available. If people in numbers beyond where it would be a niche market had gravitated toward it or latched onto it to where we'd be able to see such a shift in popularity or recognition, we would see it as of 2018. It's all out there in multiple forms and formats, and if people haven't been noticeably embracing it since those first CD reissues, where is the logic that demos and rough mixes of that same material would change any games?

That's niche material, for better or worse. At some point in terms of marketing and projecting and sales and all that stuff, you can't force or hector people into buying something they're not into. Diehard fans will line up for it, but in terms of getting things on the legacy-boosting level?

Go for the material from this band that already created that legacy, go for the unheard and arcane surrounding that material, and prime that pump for the lesser known eras.

But I cannot see any market outside the diehard completists for anything this band recorded after 1976. The only interest might be what Brian was doing on his own and the Love You untouched demos (curiosity would drive interest in those perhaps because it was Brian), but seriously where is there a market for MIU or KTSA or BB85 outtakes or unreleased tunes when the albums themselves stiffed and are generally ignored by most outside the hardcore fans?

It may sound cynical, but if there are suggestions that unreleased material from the 70's and beyond is the golden goose just waiting to lay those golden eggs, I don't see it in reality because the material is more often than non sub-par and the released versions of said material simply do not sell or generate interest.

If people get a chance to hear a song they know and which millions love in a new way, or hear the process behind that classic, that element is what helps sell a pitch to release this kind of material. Not the chance to hear an alternate take from the MIU album or something.

It's a question of structuring releases to address (perceived) marketing strategies. If GF is right, then an approach that leads off with a disk with variants and session materials from more familiar songs, and follows with a series of outright rarities arranged by whatever theme the BRI folks/consultants come up with would be the way to go.

How well did Alan Boyd's late-90s compilations sell? That was the template for what I'm calling the "second disk" in a new "2-fer" series.

Of course an on-line resource with access to the Sea of Tunes materials would be extremely intriguing, fitting in well with how music is being delivered at this point in time, and creating it shouldn't require a great deal of expenditure, so (as others have noted) even a modest amount of sales should make the effort worthwhile (read: profitable).

And applying some deliberately simple-minded logic to ask a question:

If it were as inexpensive and as easy to open the vaults for fans to buy and access via an online download "shop" as is being suggested, wouldn't it have been done already?

Maybe the questions should be why hasn't it been done already even after it was proposed and planned roughly 15 years ago? What all is preventing it from actually happening?

Consider that everything that was on Sea Of Tunes (and more) exists and can be released with even more care given to the mixing and balancing of the tracks as well as more complete run-downs of the different albums' sessions (done chronologically for example), adding even more that has been found or acquired since the original SOT run...It would be an amazing, truly game-changing project to get it out officially.

And it would be familiar musical material that has a 50+ year track record of being popular and selling consistently versus unheard versions of less popular music that didn't sell.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me!  ;D

I think you have to get material with wide appeal to "sell" anything like this. In this case there is plenty of that to pull from, and it can be done well (if done correctly).

Feel free to tell us.

Only if you reveal the recipe for your famous Bouillabaisse.

I  just want to hear this unreleased stuff! I don't care if others hear it and either love it or hate it...I just want to hear all of it, every last second, every drum, every guitar, every fart, doesn't matter.

Ditto. Minus maybe some of the farts.

Even if it is a farty synth!

Mini moog farts! ;D

So if the moog was off would it be “silent but deadly “?

I just wish that they are going to release studio stuff from the vaults constantly until 2062. And as for live stuff, we can even go further!

Can I be in charge of any remixing/mastering? Apparently somebody liked my work as a few of mine somehow found their way to MiC.... :lol

GF and Billy were not made in California! ;D

In a discussion last year that initially centered around "Sunshine Tomorrow", Howie Edelson said this:

I don't want to besmirch any other band, but as someone who's quite aware of what's in several other group's vaults, of the "majors" (and I'm not exaggerating), The Beach Boys are the ONLY one where if its unreleased material was finally released, the entire narrative changes and history gets a revamp. The BB's are the only band who can get a 10th life from what they left on the cutting room floor. The Grateful Dead definitely do not have five more "Sugar Magnolia's" tucked away in the vault -- The BB's have 15.

I don't want to speak for Howie, but I sense he was talking more about "Carry Me Home" and more Dennis material, and "Bedroom Tapes" type of material more than alternate session breakdowns and takes for "California Girls" and "Surfin' Safari" and "Fun Fun Fun."

Remember, especially when it comes to the 70s and 80s, there is TONS of stuff we've *never* even heard or maybe even heard *of.*

I’d trust and believe Howie on this... he definitely knows the score

Missed this 1st time around. Certainly some fine early Dennis stuff, as Alan Boyd has said. Tantalizing.

Maybe I'm just not understanding or getting what is meant by the term "game changer" or changing the narrative. Is it changing the game in terms of the general public opinion, or among hardcore fans of the band?

A few things come to mind. First, would "Made In California" as released with all the previously unheard tracks be considered a game-changer? Did the wealth of outtakes and unheard tracks cause opinions or perceptions to noticeably shift after people heard the set? Or if not, what archival/vault releases without the names "Pet Sounds" or "Smile" had such a game-changing impact outside the diehard fanbase?

(I'd say that '93 box set was indeed a game changer, but I also think the bulk of the reasons why centered around the Smile material)

And I cannot understand where there is appeal to anyone but the most obsessive completists and collector/diehards to hear ANYTHING languishing in the vaults from the late 70's or 80's. The released albums were ignored when they were released, and are still mostly ignored to this day. And I think a lot of it has to do with the songs themselves, and the sounds used in terms of the way they were making records at that time. I don't get the appeal.

And I surely don't see where KTSA or MIU or BB85 outtakes are going to cause a seismic game-changing shift in public opinion. But that's just my take.

You know GF, as much as I sometimes see things differently than you, I do totally agree with you that the term "game changer" for the remaining unreleased material is a bit too much. While I agree with those posters who have said that they think the truly unreleased material would have more effect than raw sessions of "California Girls" or whatever, I still don't think the truly unreleased, unheard titles will be setting even the Pitchfork/Stereogum/NPR type communities ablaze, much less the larger public narrative.

The best case scenario is likely the kind of reception that something like Made In California or Sunshine Tomorrow probably got around a few non-hardcore fans who heard a few things that weren't what they expected from The Beach Boys and it turned them into fans. I think that is possible. But not on a large scale. I personally think reissuing albums like Sunflower, Surf's Up, Holland and even ones like (yes) 15 Big Ones and (yep) L.A. (Light Album) with a decent amount of bonus material would be the smartest way to go. Highlight the actual albums, and the great material that actually made it onto those albums and then supplement it with some unreleased stuff. But no, as great as the unreleased stuff is, I don't think there is anything in the vault that is gonna make releasing Sunflower or Surf's Up or Holland as they are look like a bad idea. But stuff like "Carry Me Home", all of those unreleased 15 Big Ones-era covers and L.A. (Light Album) and Keepin' The Summer Alive outtakes will help complete the picture of what this band is. But I don't think any of it will change the basic picture in the first place like some people think. Maybe I'm wrong and there are more "Please Let Me Wonder" quality things and more even Wild Honey quality albums in the vault. But I suspect it's more like oddities like "Loop de Loop" and the 1970 version of "Back Home" and whatnot. And that's fine with me.

I will say though, as far as Dennis Wilson solo material, there may well be something closer to the so-called "game changers." I think there is a lot of "there" there that we may not know of. And maybe it's that's what these people are speaking of, then maybe I'm with them.

People, “game changer” (or whatever equivalent term) means getting the appropriate media attention focused specifically on the wealth of  *unheard* songs/material. To even just start to change perceptions.

It’s not going to hit #1 on the Billboard album charts. But it’s going to get the type of media attention that helps to change the narrative of the BAND.

And what that *doesn’t* necessarily specifically entail is more early-mid 60s session tapes. We already have approximately 10 discs (give or take, but I’m talking about the PS Sessions Box, the “Smile Sessions” box, “Keep an Eye on Summer”, etc.) worth of Brian helming 60s sessions in his prime. As I’ve said, I’m all for dumping *all* of the vaults out there for fans and scholars. But the story/narrative of Brian being in charge and doing his amazing work on those 60s sessions has been told sufficiently *compared* to the gaping hole in the narrative for the 70s and 80s (and we can stretch that back to the later 60s if we want, and even into the 90s with the Paley material, etc.), where, despite *great* material being doled out on MIC, EH Soundtrack, etc. is where DOZENS of discs worth of unheard material awaits release.

What achieves all of this is THEMED, TARGETED releases focusing on particular eras/types of material. However inaccurate a “Bedroom Tapes” moniker might be for a boxed set of late 60s to mid-late 70s Brian-centric tracks, a “Bedroom Tapes” multi-disc (digital or physical or both, whatever) set following up quickly on that article (and on the heels of those “Proposed Brother Bonus Tracks” being stumbled upon and creating some interest) would have gotten a lot of eyes and attention.

Same with Dennis material.

There should be a multi-disc set for Brian’s 70s and 80s material (demos, studio tracks, etc.), a multi-disc set for Dennis’s late 60s-early 80s (mostly late 70s) material, and another to capture the DOZENS of tracks the *other* guys did that are noteworthy. There are Al Jardine tracks we’ve never even heard about. Same with Carl.

And then also a “Live” boxed set to kick off a live show download program.

More “4th of July” and “Carry Me Home” and even “Stevie” and all of that; *that’s* where the narrative can shift and not only create more buzz, but just as if not more importantly, FINALLY cater to the hardcore fans the way the Elvis “FTD” series has or the huge Grateful Dead or Dylan series of archival material. Those Grateful Dead sets don’t burn up the Billboard charts either.

On the selfish side of things, I don’t care as much how much the industry or the masses change their view of the BBs and I just want to see NEW unreleased material (which means not so much 60s material, though there is still some there too). But putting out a Dennis set centered on “Carry Me Home” would achieve both; it would be the best of both words. And even if it doesn't set the indie rock press world on fire, it's what fans and scholars want and need. Much more so than aborted backing track takes of "All Summer Long", etc.

To sum up, while “California Girls” is a better song than Al’s 1978 version of “Looking Down the Coast” or even an alternate mix of “My Diane”, what I’d rather see is discs full of that 70s and 80s material. There can still be some vetting, some curation involved. They don’t *have* to put out “Battle Hymn of the Republic” (though that one would probably be innocuous). They probably should avoid putting out “Lazy Lizzie” for a myriad of reasons. But there’s just SO MUCH 70s and 80s material. I truly think we don’t even know about all of it. But even on those three “Proposed Brother Bonus Tracks” discs, there’s a good two discs worth of key, mind-blowing material. The long version of “This Whole World”, the “’Til I Die” demo, Fairy Tale EP demos, the alternate version of “4th of July”, the (relatively) complete version of “We Gotta Groove”, and even the kind of secondary material like Al singing “Love Is a Woman”, and the list goes on and on. And that’s not even getting into vocals-only and instrumental versions of familiar songs. The long version of “This Whole World” needs to be heard, but so does a full instrumental track.

Seriously, if even 25% of the known-of-but-never-heard unreleased tracks from the 70s and 80s were solid, there would be tons to release right there. Carl’s “Down by the Pier.” Maybe it stinks, but maybe it’s really good. I have a suspicion there’s a TON of Carl stuff we haven’t heard, probably tons of demos held by the estate rather than BRI.

Eh, maybe that's your definition. But there have been those saying that this is more important than the members doing more work together or indeed ever touring together again. And it also has a tinge of wanting The Beach Boys to be something different than they are, like these people want the so-called "cool people" to like The Beach Boys instead of just enjoying the music and the story and understanding that Brian, Mike, Carl, Al and even Dennis aren't David Bowie or Bob Dylan or whatever. But to be honest, I'm a guy in my mid-30s and to me it seems that to people around my age and in their 20s and whatnot, The Beach Boys are about equal with so called "cooler" groups from back in the day like The Who or Zep or what have you.

So yeah, while I don't think the vault of unreleased material is the main thing, I do think that promoting the already released catalog is very important, pushing the importance of not only the wonderful '62 to '65 material and Pet Sounds and SMiLE, but also the '67 to '74 era and I think in time even the '75 to '79 or even '85 era, as appreciation for these eras grow as I suspect they will. The vault will help tell the story and keep people interested though.

Well again, what the "hardcore fans want" and what is good for furthering the cause so to speak to the masses are two different things that *can* overlap.

Concerning the band working together again and/or touring again, check out my past posts since 2012 on the subject. *Nobody* has been a bigger proponent of C50 and nobody has lamented the demise of that reunion more than me. I’m in fact notorious to some for belaboring the point that Mike quitting the band in September of 2012 was one of the worst moves ever for the band, and certainly the worst move of the last 20-30 years.  

I'm not 100% certain another quick "reunion" tour in, say, 2019 is more desirable/needed/important than a WIDE opening of the archives (though ideally we would/could get both), but the reality is that while “anything is possible”, the likelihood of the band reuniting again is not particularly high, and frankly even if they did it would be a pretty big open question as to what the quality would be of a resulting album and tour given what’s happened since 2012.

As for the rest:

Promoting the already-released catalog? Does anybody think there’s a lack of that going on now, or ever in recent years/decades? Huge hunks of the catalog (sans any notable bonus tracks) were reissued both in 2012 and then again a few years later on hybrid SACD (and there are countless vinyl reissues as well). Capitol/UMe continues to repackage the hits, and we of course have the recent orchestral overdub album. "Sounds of Summer" is back in the album charts across numerous summers.

Regarding the unreleased material from the 70s and 80s, there’s not much more “in time” left. A lot of Beach Boys fans are getting VERY old and dying off. Meanwhile, it’s the 70s material that is going to “open the eyes” of the younger indie/hipster crowd.

I’m loathe to get into hyper-analysis concerning what younger (or older) demographics or crowds find the Beach Boys whatever level of “cool” or “uncool.” I think, to be blunt and honest, few folks and few hardcore BB fans are qualified and well-versed enough on the current media/pop culture/music industry landscape in that regard to say what might speak to a new/younger crowd and what might give the BBs a “new life” and revamp large hunks of the story/perception.

But I trust Howie Edelson on this (he’s immersed in the aforementioned media/pop culture/music industry in a way the typical hardcore BB fan *typically* isn’t), and I also trust my own gut. The crowds at Bonnaroo during C50 cheering more for “Heroes and Villains” than “Fun Fun Fun” or “Barbara Ann” are more likely to build the appreciation of the band off of the 70s unreleased material. Again, what we’re talking about here is a scaled, measured reaction from the “masses.” “Carry Me Home” isn’t going to get Dennis and the band on the cover of “Entertainment Weekly” or the top of the iTunes or Billboard single (or albums) chart. It’s not that sort of thing. What that stuff *will* do that a “California Girls Sessions” boxed set *won’t*, is the game-changing shift you saw during C50, of indeed the band’s rep and stature in the industry going from Frankie Valli/Lou Christie to Mick Jagger/Rolling Stones. In part, it’s about NEW songs. Stuff people haven’t heard before.

And again, circling back to what fans and scholars want and need, while there is obviously no single consensus on this, my own feeling and my sense for what the majority of truly hardcore fans/students of the band want is more “Brother” era stuff rather than early-mid 60s material. More specifically, truly *new* songs and new material. As I’ve said, the 60s have been mined pretty deeply in this regard, though there are still some things outside of raw session tapes from the 60s that are very much needed as well.

But I also think, while we should always take a measured approach to how much of a “game changer” anything could be for the BBs at this stage, let’s remember how Dennis and “Pacific Ocean Blue” were largely forgotten prior to Stebbins’s book and the eventual POB reissue. TONS of people were simply learning such an album and career existed. The Stebbins book and the POB reissue were absolutely game changers.

Very well stated

The most exciting thing about possible archival releases from the '70's and '80's is the fact that the Beach Boys are well-known amongst knowledgeable fans for frequently leaving good-to-great material in the vaults, releasing inferior product instead.  I'm confident that their is a ton of stuff that is better than, say, Sumahama...

Honestly, I feel as though the Beach Boys have run their course. During my fandom, there were roughly three-four instances where their profile was raised again.

93-96 -- Boxed set into Brian's return into the Pet Sounds anniversary.
04 -- BWPS completion and performance.
08-10 -- That Lucky Old Sun into Gershwin album (smaller, BW centric)
11-12 -- Smile box into 50th reunion.

I don't know what's really left. Everyone is in their mid-70s. The vaults have been mined, admittedly while leaving choice gems behind. The tours have been toured, and one doubts that we'll see the shows get notably better than they were six or seven years ago.

The most devoted fans, even those who came along relatively late, are now into their late 30s and 40s. The core fans who actually experienced it live are in their 50s-70s.

I was listening to the end of TWGMTR the other night, and it struck me, hearing Brian sing the last words of that song

-- We laugh, we cry.
We live then die.
And dream about our yesterday.

-- That this is, most likely, it. Maybe we'll get a couple of Leonard Cohen style late BW albums. Maybe there will be one more show with everyone. But the time is running out. The music has been made, the demand sated. Everyone seems a little tired.

Maybe I'm projecting. Maybe this will all stay vibrant for decades to come. I hope so. But I fear not.

I'm afraid the most likely answer as to "what's really left" is the morbid one. The profile will be raised again when someone, and especially Brian, dies. That's when another trove will be released, the major outlets will celebrate the legacy, etc.

Shall we raise the stakes, sweeten the pot?

Would the idea of a studio sessions or outtakes type of product be less objectionable if it were focused on the Sunflower sessions? Because that could easily be cobbled together, either in a more sequential run where possible or edited as in the PS or Smile Sessions releases.

Two quick points:

First: These "new" fans, let's say in their 20's and 30's who are currently getting the bug we all got and diving into the more obscure material, were not around when the initial Sea Of Tunes sets hit the underground market and trading circuits. That audience, right there, might just welcome more session-studio outtake material since for a lot of those ears, it would be fresh listening material.

And they may have the same reaction we did when we got our hands on them.

Somewhat knowing their tastes, the material from the late 70's and 80's that is in the vaults currently would most likely not appeal to their sensibilities and listening habits, and it may just have a negative reaction.

Second: I REALLY like Jim's ideas for the Brother material.

Do it up similar to the two-fers, but this time give each album a freshening up from the previous re-releases, and also add a second disc full of demos, outtakes, and other rarities. NOT live cuts on these, but show the better material in the vaults that exists for each of the Brother era albums.

There is plenty of live material from this amazing era for the live band to do individual releases.

Boom - Money in the proverbial bank, right there.

Good call, Jim.

Works for me

We may even get something as "exciting" as the first posthumous Tom Petty box set out in a month or two...

Speaking of this, what “holy grail” remains for you guys that is left in the vaults? CF 74 was mine for many years and when I heard it on mic it was almost cathartic . I personally want to hear more Brian stuff from the early to mid 70s

I always found that one of the most interesting things about the '74 CF recording is that, while we didn't know it at the time, Al Jardine's 2010 version of the song was referencing that '74 recording. It sure sounds like Al had heard that recording, perhaps recently as of 2010 (or the preceding few years when some of the "Postcards" stuff was cut), and that helped to influence his take on his solo album.

Beyond the obvious things (e.g. Brian's '74 voice which literally was a combo of his 1970 and 1976 voices), one of the first things I thought when I finally heard the '74 recording was "This sounds like Al's solo version in places!"

My off the top of my head Holy Grails are:

A far better mix of Sound of Free, and a proper release of It's a New Day and Lookin' Down The Coast. Three exceptional songs I think...

And if Come To The Sunshine showed up then we'd truly have world peace... :smokin

Regarding the general topic of the Beach Boys' vaults, I'll say this. I'm not (nor are most others) really particularly qualified to make a really prescient guess as to how popular the BBs will be in ten or twenty or more years, and with which age demographic, etc.

I think some things (the noticeably old age of audiences at Mike's shows) don't bode super duper well for the future, while other factors (notice paid to PS/Smile and other deep cut stuff among the indie/hipster crowd) suggest more longevity.

And there are many "in betweens" of course as well. The "original" fans are getting very old and dying off, and the fans that were very young during the mid-late 90s "indie" surge of attention are obviously getting older too.

That all being said, looking at the vaults as a hardcore fan and scholar, what I can say UNEQUIVOCALLY is that the vaults have *not* been sufficiently mined, and that there are more than just a few gems left in those vaults. Howie's reference to "15 Sugar Magnolias" is enough for me, but my own knowledge of what's in the vaults from mainly the 70s/80s (and 90s and even later as well, especially if we start looking at solo-ish material), and the knowledge that there's a TON of stuff in there that we *don't* know about, I would actually say the stuff is barely mined.

There hasn't yet been a concentrated multi-disc set focusing *only* on that material. The plan back circa 2000 to do each "Brother" album with a slew of bonus tracks for each album fell by the wayside, and ever since we've gotten some trickles of material from that era ("Hawthorne, CA", "Songs from Here & Back", "Pet Sounds" live bonus tracks, etc.) and a few larger dumps of the material, but still mixed in with 60s outtakes and mixed in among other well-known tracks, such as the "Made in California" set.

There is enough known and unknown material to easily do 2 or 3-disc "immersion" style sets for most of the Brother era albums.

And this is all *without* going to the really deep, arcane stuff that would *only* appeal to the most hardcore scholar (e.g. "Drip Drop", alternates of "Ding Dang", weird mixes of "15 Big Ones" oldies, etc.), stuff that could also help to flesh such releases out.

There are tons of revelatory items from this era.

And again, especially the further it gets into the later 70s and into the 80s, I think there's a good amount of stuff we don't even know about. Is there a BB '85 take of "Oh Lord"? I don't know, but stuff *like that* is around. And also, as I mentioned, if we start veering into solo material, there's all sorts of Brian material and I'm guessing Carl material squirreled away somewhere.

And, the live vaults (audio and video) have been even more lightly mined post-1967, especially compared to how much touring they did and how many great performances were captured. Again, this is keeping in mind there were awful-sounding tours (1981) and plenty of autopilot touring years. But there are even late-era inspired live performances (think Carl's '95 take on "Sail on Sailor"), and a TON of 70s and 80s shows worth releasing as a "Boyd's Picks" (or whomever) sort of series. Again, not necessarily Earth-shattering in terms of getting the BBs to #1 or anything, but compared to their popularity and ubiquitous stature on the touring circuit over all those years, there should really be more full shows out there, and more video beyond an edited-down "Knebworth 1980" and various other clips, etc.

Mine probably were "Where Is She?" and the 1974 "California Feelin'" demo. And then the Brian solo version of "In The Back Of My Mind" from 1975. Honestly on "In The Back Of My Mind" I never really expected it cuz at first I wasn't sure it really existed and then I didn't think it'd truly get released. When it got released on the certain versions of No Pier Pressure I couldn't believe it.

As far as now? I don't know. Probably the same as you. But I have to be honest, while there is more early to mid '70s Brian music to be released (like "Spark in the Dark" and "Rooftop Harry") I don't think there are many (if any) more lead vocals available from that era from him (at least those that haven't already been heard by many, like "Awake").

I suppose that if it exists in a recorded form my number one want would be "Just an Imitation" but I honestly don't think that one is around.

Then after that era, I'd love to hear "Boys and Girls", "Sweetie", "Why Didn't I Tell You" and of course any post L.A. (Light Album) stuff from Denny, especially "Labor Day" and any supposed Denny/Christine McVie sessions.

I'd agree that it would be fascinating to hear anything that Dennis did with Christine McVie.

Heck, I'd love to hear Brian just singing oldies in the shower...

Too bad he didn't shower.