The Smiley Smile Message Board

I'm certain many of us regard the effects of Brian's Post-SMiLE collapse of having been highly exaggerated considering he was still in creative control largely during Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends as the session tapes have shown. Sunshine Tomorrow and the inevitable Friends Outtakes cd are audible contrary evidence to the often held (and extremely frustrating) opinion that after the failure to release SMiLE in 1967 Brian quickly lost control of the group and his artistic vision plummeted.

Now I LOVE Smile, but that idea of Brian's immediate collapse happening so quickly is such an often held opinion that I wonder if it will ever change, as the incorrect narrative gets in the way of a better story in this case. 20/20 is where it can truly be argued that Brian had collapsed, (the brief time spent in the psychiatric hospital) but they had so many songs stockpiled by then that all the best compositions were still the work of Brian. For that reason (and Carl's first proper production), I Can Hear Music Is the real start of the group dynamic taking over.

But I guess my real point is that for me personally, the big collapse didn't happen for the most part in the 60s, but largely post-holland In my opinion, the likes of Break Away, This Whole World, Til I Die (especially), Let The Wind Blow, With Me Tonight, Darlin, Do It Again, Can't Wait Too Long, ect. Are equally as wonderful as any of his earlier 1964-1967 classics. I hate to bring it up since its mentioned A LOT but Mike's constant talking of the Wilson's drug addictions only exacerbates the idea of 'poor tortured Brian's' decline on an artistic level.

I'm biased but is anyone else irked by the media narrative of his decline after SMiLE, or that the group completely took over straight afterwards?

Thing is, Brian did take a step back, in theory if not really in practice. The lp credits went from Produced and Arranged by Brian Wilson, to Produced by the Beach Boys, and by 'Friends' the songwriting credits were being shared by Mike, Dennis, Carl and Al.

Brian was still in creative control, but the outward signs contradicted that. Did Brian no longer want sole public responsibility for the records successes and failures?

Brian lost control, over the Beach Boys and their records, with the SMiLE implosion (implosion I think's the best term to describe those events then).  His creativity was fueled by that control, record after record leading up to SMiLE, and when the others (primarily Mike Love) began successfully over-riding his plans and decisions that dissipated his creative desires (it certainly took the 'edge' off them), a gradual decline over the next couple albums, until in effect the others could eventually say 'we don't need you anymore' to produce records

After sleeping on it and thinking about it, yeah.. I really can't disagree that him dropping out of the spotlight was more for Brian's well being than anything else. But as much as that might have been the public portrayal that Brian potentially wanted, (of him stepping back) I don't see a massive decline in the quality of his creative content straight afterwards as is so often percieved. To me I see a guy who was still putting in the effort for Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends and most often was responsible for the best material (old & new) between 1967-1971. Even after that he had Marcella and Sail On Sailor.

Yeah, there was a decline, it has to be said. But I feel like the portrayal of 'tortured Brian' after SMiLE is one that jars with all the amazing music he was largely responsible for, regardless of how invested he was. I think the whole "Brian the genius" campaign started by Derek Taylor probably proved a bigger hindrance as time went on and Brian didn't fully return to the spotlight until 1976, at which point he was clearly a very different person to the one fans and critics wanted him to be.

SamMck, I agree with most of your post (your original post), but I'd pinpoint Brian's 'big collapse' as happening in 1970 as opposed to "largely post-Holland".  All the songs you mention have their origins in the 60s. His productivity drops off nearly completely post-Sunflower. That's when he really loses interest. Even Marcella was a rewrite of material from the 60s. Like you said, the group dynamic really emerges with I Can Hear Music and 20/20, but Brian bounced back and wrote/recorded a lot of music in late '69/early '70. He wouldn't return to anything approaching that level of productivity again until 1976.


clack, my thoughts exactly. I think the answer to that question is a resounding "yes".


hideyotsuburaya, what plans and decisions did Mike Love successfully override? I'm genuinely confused about this. I know he questioned VDP's lyrics, but other than that?

don't be confused, genuine or otherwise - just remember the Redwood debacle

True, but I thought you were referring to Smile.

Edit: By the way, I like what you said about Brian's creativity being fueled by his control of their records. I've always felt that. It speaks to why he took his name off the production credit. And why he's got a greater affinity for 15 Big Ones than most.

questioned VanDyke's lyrics?  More like rebelled against them, causing him (VDP) to forfeit the project and all the time spent on it.  (I think that the classic Beach Boys historical primer has it that Parks left not once but twice).  Danny Hutton said that Brian told him then point blank he cannot fight Mike (about him continuing to produce an album for Redwood, not just a 45) and it's hardly a stretch to imagine Brian also telling Van that too.  Brian needed a lyricist but an ally just as much it seems, both lost needlessly because VanDykes lyrics were the edgy part of SMiLE (it took Mike a little while but he was to realize that)

"Edit Edit: By the way, I like what you said about Brian's creativity being fueled by his control of their records" - that's not 'rocket science' as they say

Brian was still in complete control for 'Smiley Smile', and near-complete control for WH and 'Friends'. He was still the sole producer, though not credited as such.  

My speculation is that, beginning with WH, he began to allow the others in the band more input in the arrangements, but even there he maintained final say.

There was no post-SMiLE collapse. There was a gradual decline in involvement, which however began only post-Friends.

Brian lost more control than imagined here...at least by the person who kicked this thread into gear.  Smiley Smile was not the album Brian wanted and 'they', the other guys, had a far greater hand in its outcome than Brian did.  He rather felt like they took the project away from him and "GOOD GAWWWWD!!!...look what they DID to it!!!"

After all that?  His commitment wouldn't have been anywhere near as targeted or as focused again.  I don't think Brian ever really trusted 'the group' again.  With no foundation to stand on...he slowly sank from sight and sound.  His barking dog of a cousin had successfully chased all of the future creativity and conspirators out of the yard and the internal factions were established...not as concretely as they would soon become...but the poisonous 'drip' had been injected into the patient and, over time, it would take its toll ... ... ... and its victims.

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While Brian was fully in control of Smiley, WH and Friends, he was very clearly stepping back in terms of his lead vocal duties. Brian's lead vocals practically dominate Pet Sounds and the SMiLE era tracks. One could argue that he became the group's primary lead vocalist during this time (singles be damned). That situation abruptly ends with Smiley Smile. Brian is still singing lead on some tracks but not to the degree that he once had been. He's handing more lead vocals off to Carl.
The stripped down production of SS and WH was a conscious move away from what he had done before 65-66, but it also meant that there was less heavy lifting for Brian to do in the studio. When you see the other guys popping up with writing credits, I think you're seeing Brian just trying to make the recording situation a lot less hectic for himself and more creatively stimulating for the other guys.
The old tired warhorse of a theory that he washed his hands of The Beach Boys and was at war with them following SMiLE is a nice pipe dream but it ain't reality as the tapes prove.

It also isn't reality that after 1967 Brian retreated to his bed and did nothing musically but lay there and collect royalty checks, as the tapes prove. Same with the notion that the Smile sessions were a drug-fueled mess of a Bacchanale where everyone was zonked out of their minds, surrounded by drug pushers, hangers-on, and leeches.

It's amazing how such nonsense got published or even accepted to where it got repeated for decades after the fact when the truth is on all those tapes.

Nearly the exact words in the 2005 lawsuit! ;D

Well, for the longest time the narrative went as follows:

"After the collapse of SMiLE, the Beach Boys forced Brian into participating in these crappy albums like Smiley Smile, Wild Honey and Friends. You can tell Brian's heart wasn't in it because the production, the songs, the lyrics, etc. are all woefully inferior to what we had on Pet Sounds and SMiLE".

This was certainly the going narrative in the 1980's when I was getting heavily into The Beach Boys. Those albums were held up as evidence #1 that without Brian at the helm The Beach Boys couldn't produce anything decent, an opinion held by the "hipster hardcore Brian Wilson cult" of 1988 (myself included). The critical reassessment of those records had yet to take place.  Now we know that Brian WAS at the helm. A lot of hardcore Brian fanatics have had to do quite a bit of soul searching.   

Hmm, I don't recall that narrative and I was one of the cult members at that same time. If anything we were trying to introduce skeptics to the joys of Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, etc and lending out copies of those albums, telling people about the XTC/Dukes of Stratosphear tribute track, and sharing copies of Dom Priore's LLVS which said nothing like that - in fact pages are full of praise for Smiley, WH, even Leid In Hawaii at a time when those albums were all but off the radar and the "Beach Boys" were doing soundtracks full of 80's production fetish sounds.

If anything the narrative and direct responses I got from more people after playing them Smile boots, Smiley, WH, etc was a sense of almost the incredulous when they'd see or hear something new at that time by the "Beach Boys" and wondered if it was the same guys still making that music. It was like Jekyll and Hyde.

Answering SmileBrian's comment, yes that is pretty much a summary of the wording that was in Mike's lawsuit.

Then we ran in entirely different circles back then because that definitely WAS the narrative I was taught and firmly believed in as a teenager. It's an easy one to believe in too when you hear the SMiLE tracks (on bootleg tapes at the time) and then hear the versions on Smiley Smile. If you're told that "this is The Beach Boys trying to do the SMiLE stuff on their own" it's easy to see where that narrative (wrong as it is) could make sense to someone. We also pointed to "Pale and Precious" as a Brian tribute (and "Season Cycle" from XTC's Skylarking) but it was never in the context of Smiley, WH and Friends but always in the context of the promise SMiLE (which was everything).
 
I remember when someone played me "Rio Grande" for the first time and said "See? This is what a real Brian Wilson production sounds like!!!".
 

That may be so, for your experience, but the majority of the Smile "fan mixes" made on cassette in those days before the floodgates opened for new Smile fragments consisted of at least half Smiley tracks, and people were digging them in that context. Again speaking of Domenic Priore, he even published a Smile fan mix tracklist in the old Pulse magazine back in '92 or so, and that was a pretty cool template for a DIY Smile fan mix before the internet and more vault leaks changed the whole game.

There was a pretty strong underground cult of fans who were doing what I said (and did), and getting people who had no idea that music existed to listen to Smiley Smile and Wild Honey, and both albums had and developed even stronger a certain cult following especially among musicians. Even then, yes there may have been the notion of "compromise" with Smile versus Smiley Smile, but most people took Smiley and Wild Honey even then as Brian's work, compromised or not, and appreciated it as such.

A further point about "Rio Grande", I think at that time and the years after that specific track may have been emblematic of what fans knew Brian was *still* capable of doing musically. I say still because apart from some cameos with the Beach Boys doing whatever he did, there was a sense that he was fried, that he was done for in a musical sense, and the tabloid-style press coverage of him throughout the 80's didn't do any favors. Unfortunately that track (to me) fell victim to what were some overbearing production sounds that were trendy in studios at that time and which labels almost required artists to use and sound like in terms of a major release. It hampered the music, to me. But so did a sense of too many cooks on that project, and of course Landy.

But I do think Rio Grande was one of those diamonds in the rough that gave fans hope that not only was Brian still capable of writing music like that, harkening back to the Smile experimentation with song form and storytelling in that kind of song construction, but also that we would get more of that from him in the future.

I don't doubt that was your experience but it certainly wasn't mine and I was DEEP into that underground Brian cult.  While I and my friends heard SS, WH and Friends (in piecemeal fashion....those LP's were very hard to come by in the 1980's) it was not in the larger context of Brian's artistic vision but rather "hey, check out these weird tracks The Beach Boys did" and enjoyed in an Ed Wood kind of way.
In fact, the first time I had heard any of those tracks was completely out of their original context and on the "Sunshine Dream" cassette.        

I agree wholeheartedly with this (I wanted a whole album like that!) but I can't agree about the production. It sounded like most everything else at the time. To me it sounded very contemporary but with a retro-feel. I mean, Paul McCartney's "Press To Play" album was more screamingly synthetic sounding than BW 88 (same with Peter Gabriel's "So" and other highly praised records)...and I thought that way even then.
I admit to being an "old man from the 80's" on this issue.   

That's funny you mention "So", a friend and I literally wore out that cassette when it came out. Wore it out, and my own dubbed copy. I went back recently to listen to some of the choice tracks with my older ears, and tracks like Sledgehammer and others really do not suffer from that 80's-itis in terms of sounding dated. They're just damn fine tracks, and Sledgehammer still grooves like nobody's business. If anything...I also went back to Gabriel's older solo material, and listened to a favorite from those years "Games Without Frontiers". Now THAT sounded dated, even though I still dig the song. But the sounds dragged it down a few pegs, whereas the choice cuts from "So" didn't sound nearly as dated as I thought.

BW 88 did sound like a lot of everything else at the time, in some ways, and that's what kind of killed it for me - That was what was behind my comment about labels expecting records to sound like, it was just what they thought a hit should sound like. But consider at that same time there were successful albums like "Appetite For Destruction", that La's album with There She Goes as the lead single, Michael Penn with that terrific single No Myth, even Elvis Costello's hit Veronica, and I could name more...but none of them have that 80's-itis sound quality that drags down BW 88 and other albums like it, the Macca album is a great example of it. Touches of it were on those I mention, yes, but not fully washed out in that sound like I think BW's album suffers from.

We can split hairs on the production of BW 88 (I actually think GnR's AFD sounds more dated) but you have to admit that at that time BW 88 was heralded as THE comeback nobody expected, and I agreed with the critics that it was the best Beach Boys-releated release since Sunflower. While Landy was considered controversial even then, he was praised for getting Brian in shape and actively writing and recording. Like a lot of Brian fanatics at the time, I completely bought into the idea that Landy was a positive in Brian's life....mainly because Brian kept saying this in every interview.

Fast forward all these years later and to younger fans BW 88 is tainted by the presence of Landy, the "80's production complaint", etc.
Just goes to show you how perceptions differ over the years. Same with SS, WH and Friends now that we know what we know.

Getting back to the notion of Brian "checking out" after Smile, I think there is validity in saying he did check out in a sense, and I'd go back to Marilyn's comments in the Don Was doc for some more of the rationale behind that where she was very specific on her reasons why he made certain decisions after Smile. I think there was a sense of being fed up with the conflicts and challenges from his own band and family, and he would not be making music like Smile (or even Pet Sounds) for or with the band moving forward, or nowhere near the same percentage of that kind of music and recording methods moving forward. But immediately after, he did not stop making that kind of music, in fact he took some of the Smile methods to what he was doing for Redwood and on other assorted tracks like Can't Wait Too Long, Cool Cool Water, etc all done later in '67. And the use of session players never stopped, in fact it amped up a bit for the Friends sessions.

As far as the notion Brian checked out entirely after Smile, of course that's nonsense as the tapes show. But he did check out in some ways for reasons beyond the artistic or anything having to do with becoming drug-addled to the point where he couldn't work any more. He just stopped trying to top Good Vibrations and make music like Smile with or for The Beach Boys, and it probably traces back to whatever happened inside the group around May and June 1967.

"Appetite..." if anything has gone on to become one of the best selling rock albums of all time. You would be amazed how many kids under 15 love that album (I see it every week), and the same singles that were spun off it back in 88-89 are now in heavy rotation on a lot of classic rock format radio stations. It feels to me like Dark Side or Sgt Pepper or Sticky Fingers or any of the other classics from when I was a kid discovering music, if it sounded too dated the new generations would not be embracing it as much as they have. And it's not in a retro kind of way either, these kids digging "Appetite" truly dig the sounds on that record.

Funny too, at the time it came out that album literally changed the way rock sounded. It was a return to the way bands like Aerosmith and the Stones cut records with two guitars and heavy drums, and Slash all but single-handedly resurrected the wah-wah pedal after it got relegated to the graveyard of cheesy sounds from the past, and the stuff of game show music and bad porn films. That album sold more Dunlop Cry-Baby wah pedals than probably anything else had in years. And listeners found that they liked scruffy looking guys plugging Les Pauls into Marshall amps over guys with teased hair and massive rackmount digital effects units. It was the old Aerosmith/Stones/Thin Lizzy sound back on the charts and MTV.

3 takes.

I think that the better word for what Brian did after Smile was "retooled".  He and those around him realised that it wasn't healthy or good for him to shoulder the amount of burden that he had been dealing with.  And that they would be going in a different direction than PS/Smile regardless.  He was still top dog starting with Wild Honey, but in a more manageable sense all around.  I think this is in actuality less negative than it is often portrayed.

The concept of losing control/direction has more to do with popular music as a whole in the late 60s and his role in it.  They had generally stopped being a primarily guitar-based band shortly before Pet Sounds, and the environment after PS was even more strongly guitar-dominated.  That stuff like 20/20 and Friends weren't hits actually isn't that much of a surprise, in hindsight, even though they are fine albums.  They were a sharp break from a sharp break from a sharp break of what the BB had been established as and known for, and they weren't resonating with the culture of pop music at that time. 

Brian's real collapse didn't happen until his father died.

Or when the others THOUGHT they didn't need Brian anymore, while they DID need him, and facts proved exactly that. Count me the great Beach Boys songs after Love You and before TWGMTR.
Dennis was the only one among the others who was a very good songwriter, but even with him Dennis + Carl + Al + Mike + Bruce << Brian

Without the eggs laid by the Golden Goose, creatively, they lost steam in very few years.

It kind of makes sense that the media would assume this false narrative.

You have a great mythological album that gets abandoned followed by a massive dip in popularity and relevance. If life were a perfectly coherent linear narrative, it would only make sense this coincided with Brian's pulling away from the band and his significantly deteriorating mental condition. But life is not a perfectly coherent linear narrative. But writers are compelling to shape reality into one in order to make a story more understandable.

I have heard this point made before and I don't particularly find it convincing. Yes, there was the guitar-rock music emerging at this time - Hendrix, Page, Clapton, etc. But so much of the real hit music was still pretty lightweight stuff, far lighter than was the Beach Boys were doing in the late 60s - Bobby Goldsboro, Herb Alpert, Gary Puckett, The Archies, The 5th Dimension, 1910 Fruitgum Company. These were light pop bands/artists who were having massive hits in the late 60s.

I think there are maybe two issues here. One is that the pop audience is fickle. There was a reason why The Monkees were one of the biggest selling bands in 1967 but dropped off substantially in 1968, despite still making good music, while The Archies had the big hit single in 1969.

And I think the problem that the Monkees faced was similar to what The Beach Boys faced. Both bands moved away from conventional pop towards something a bit more substantial. But a lot of the audience who might have appreciated substantial and mature music had unfairly written off the bands as pop fodder as a matter of principle. So the bands were kind of stuck in a void though Brian had the kind of genius where he managed to find a comfortable balance between both audiences when he produced Good Vibrations.

The reason why The Monkees dropped off in '68 had everything to do with the TV show not being on with new episodes after March or so that year. That's according to the band themselves. The last major hit they had was when Valleri came out in early '68 and it went top 5, just as the last new episodes were winding down. Their follow up was DW Washburn, after the new episodes had run their course, and that was not only a stiff but a misstep that the newly added music exec who told them they should record it acknowledged.

It's hard to remove the power of having a weekly TV show to promote the music from the Monkees example. And I do think releasing DW Washburn was a blunder. You can't have a novelty single like that coming out in summer '68 without a TV show and video to promote it.

Lines up with what Marilyn says in the Don Was doc I referenced earlier. "You guys think you can do better? Do it!" was the basic premise.

Same thing played out in 1988-89 with Kokomo. We heard the results when the band didn't need Brian anymore and Capitol came knocking for hit records.

I would agree that the Brian decline began after Sunflower. The main reason? Sunflower's U.S. chart position. Brian must have felt, I come back and work really hard, and this is what the people think? I wouldn't be too motivated either.

I think his most significant pull back was during 20/20, which I believe is when he was hospitalized.

After that, it was a drawn out fading away - from writing songs on Sunflower without appearing too much on the album, to just withdrawing almost completely by Carl & The Passions.

No doubt he pulled back, but he was still writing. When the band turned in Holland, the label didn't hear a single so they went to Van Dyke Parks who showed up with that demo of Sail On Sailor. So it was still a case even at the time of Holland that when the band needed a hit, they went to something Brian was writing at this time.

I think chart failure may be overstated as a factor. Consider how Brian's ideas - no matter how "commercial" they may or may not have been - were being rejected by the band. He apparently didn't want them to use the chants on Cool Cool Water, but they did anyway. He didn't back the idea of doing Surf's Up when the band was going to put it out, yet he showed up out of the blue during one session to add a missing part to the song. He wrote something as magnificent as Til I Die during this time, and Mike called it a downer or something like that. He had the fairy tale, and apparently Carl compromised by doing that extra record bonus instead of putting it on the album proper. It goes on and on.

As I said previously regarding the time period around Friends and 20/20, a person can only hear the word "no" so many times before finally saying f*** it. Yet he still added his work to what the band was doing musically, and I don't think they had any choice to be honest. But for a guy who had been seeking approval and validation through his music since he was a kid, it wore him down to hear his ideas rejected so many times, whether they were smash hit record ideas or not.

Yes that quote may exist but this situation with Smiley Smile is clearly referenced in the movie...Love and Mercy [not those made for TV joke-fests]...when Brian is alone talking about how gobsmacked he was over the demise of the SMiLE project with Murry.  I am of the opinion that Love and Mercy is considered by Brian to be the accurate 'take' on how things went down and that all previous 'things' alluding to events of significance in terms of the music and his career might be somewhat jaundiced...or staged...if not inaccurate.  That said then...I believe that there is basis for my view of what really and truly happened and how it then effected his future both immediate and long term.  If Brian appeared to be having fun with the 'bunt'  [Monty Pythons version of the word] it may well be that Brian was, and always has been, a FAR better team player than all of the others including Carl who at least wore the team colours unlike say...oh I don't know...Mike...for example.

And why did Carl and Dennis almost apologize for Smiley Smile virtually upon its release?  If all was "peace, love, doves, hare Krishna, power to the people boys and girls" why?  'Cause, obviously, it wasn't.  It may look 'groovy' in retrospect.  But in REAL TIME?  It was a giant pile of fly attractant.

I don't think there can be realistic dispute that SMILEY SMILE, WILD HONEY, and finally FRIENDS all are Brian Wilson produced Beach Boys albums, practically speaking if not nominally, but.......they are albums he produced bending more to the groups expressed desires (if not directly the labels too) of things they did not want to do and preferred instead.  No he could no longer produce the 'self-indulgent' shall we say types of works SMiLE certainly was (going to be), or even on the level of PET SOUNDS for that matter.  He lost, or forfeited that type of total control with the implosion of SMiLE.  After that, what else could be done?  The rest of the bandmembers were not (yet) to the point of taking over production reigns even to partial extent (that began with 20/20 though there is Dennis' BE STILL earlier),  so of course they had Brian continuing to produce since Capitol needed to release new product.  Brians once very creative vanguard was reduced to instances he was 'granted permission' for, hence the decline in output

Edit:  even as I say Capitol needed to release new Beach Boys product, by then in fact they'd certainly realized the newfound value of old product with a Best of Vol. 3, a 3-record deluxe set repackaging, plus Stack-O-Tracks which is both new and old at the same time.  This no-brainer strategy covers all possible marketing bases

I think you are right, Craig. It was not only Smile's "failure", but also what happened after that wore Brian down, as you say. He needed both psychological support (no wonder with a childhood like that and his other ongoing problems) and creative support (Brian has never been a wholly autonomous artist, always needs somebody to help him bring his creations to full fruition). In that period, it looks like he did not get much of either.
:(

As stated by other posters, (particularly hideyotsuburaya) it wasn't just enough that Brian was losing focus in creating commercial material, but you do get the clear sense that he was zoning out as the group rejected his ideas. and let's be honest, after running the ship since the beginning, and taking all that pressure on your shoulders wouldn't anyone lose interest?

It's not so much that Brian "collapsed" after SMiLE, but that his ideas got less elaborate and easier to put together, no more lengthy suites to piece together! (and really, there was no way in hell Capitol would have waited any longer in between new material in 67/68.)

But my initial reason for starting this thread is that I don't believe the portrayal of the events is as black and white as is often believed. I find it insulting the way it is often told that Brian checked out after SMiLE, considering his large role behind Smiley Smile, Wild Honey, Friends ect. and let's be honest, about 70% of the greatest late 60s/early 70s compositions were either old or new Brian tunes and fragments. (with some clear exceptions, Forever, All This Is That, Disney Girls ect.)

Yes he did lose interest in the group later on, and largely check out post-70s. But you can only say that in comparison to 1963-1967 in particular when he REALLY was doing the heavy lifting. But he knew what he was doing, he didn't just give up like is often said. I think this is a sore point for me because when I was first getting into The Beach Boys I was led to believe two things. That Brian completely lost it after SMiLE wasn't released, and that the group took over almost immediately. We now know better, but a lot of people still believe that he contributed extremely little to the later years, that myth is even mentioned in the context of Mike's 2005(?) lawsuit.

It's a frustrating situation, but I imagine it's a better story for people to believe he spent 20 years in bed afterwards doing f*ck all after SMiLE.  :(

When I was first becoming a fan of Brian way back in 1995, I bought into the whole thing about Brian giving up in 1967 because the rest of the band were assholes. Part of that came from the Landy book. Hell, when I first started trying to get into the band itself I would skip over any track with someone other than Brian singing lead. Sadly...that includes Pet Sounds. I was so offended that Brian was “forced” to give up Smile  and spent his days in bed.

Yeah, I was an idiot :lol The funny part is, I now consider his so called “start of the retreat “ to be his best work ever. I’ll put his songs from 1967-1971 over anybody else, BB or otherwise.

Pretty much, yeah. I think the fact that they WERE more piano than guitar oriented definitely hurt their commercial appeal at that time, but it also helps them stand out better (in a positive way) all these years later.

Your point about Brian being the top dog in a different way is spot on. He wasn’t necessarily pulling back, he was delegating. It worked because the other guys were ready for the challenge. He was always the master of who should sing what, and arranging, and that wasn’t any different. What DID change was the palate he was painting with.

It's also worth noting that the group's own sanctioned documentary "An American Band" pushes the narrative of Brian giving up after SMiLE. We go from the 1976 clip of Brian  talking about junking SMiLE and then we cut to the rest of the band (minus Brian) in the studio with a voiceover telling us that they had to pick themselves up and start all over. Then we jump to touring, etc with the strong implication that Brian was out of commission during these years and only resurfaces for "15 Big Ones".

"Endless Harmony" is also guilty of fudging the details and giving newbies the wrong impression.   

I remember coming to grips with the truth that Brian was responsible for SS, WH and Friends a few years into the early 1990's (it took several years just to be able to FIND those albums as it is). Indeed, there was a pretty steep learning curve between 1988 and 1995 with a ton of new information becoming available. The birth of the internet didn't hurt either.

But as others have mentioned in this thread, one can easily see where the narrative of Brian retreating in sorrow while the rest of the band cranked out SS, WH and Friends (which were considered primitive and uneven back then and a pale substitute for the kind of work Brian was capable of) would be so appealing. When I finally got around to getting those albums I liked them for all the wrong reasons, thinking the other Beach Boys had done a decent job of turning Brian's songs into something pleasant and weird (this was further bolstered by the "Produced by The Beach Boys" credit on the album). I assumed the stripped down production was the result of them being amateur record producers and not having any of Brian's gift. By the mid-90's there was far more documented histories and literature about the group than at any time before, and those old notions of Brian hating the other guys and hiding out in the bedroom fell away.

It's likely that one factor or another is overstated, but certainly in this case both are true, right? Brian has often defined success by chart placement. I recently re-listened to the radio interview he gave in support of Shyin' Away and there were numerous interesting remarks that I think are relevant to this discussion. He was asked about the Beach Boys newfound success and responded that the concerts went over well but the records weren't selling. He later offered up that he missed their "successful recordings". That he missed the feeling of a good chart record. He also couldn't understand why Shyin' Away and records like it (his contemporary music?) weren't hit records. He was also asked if there was a time in the group's history that he gave up the reins of control, and he said yes but he really didn't know why. I get that he is on the radio and I know why he was, so that could inform his answers, but I kind of believe him when he simply says, "I don't know". Ultimately, Brian didn't really know what was happening to him or how to deal with it properly. Here's an excerpt from his book discussing his struggle with depression during this period of his life:

"... I would be in the middle of a perfectly good day, with no bad news for miles around, and I would get depressed. I would go to bed and wouldn't get out for days. Sometimes it was simple depression, and sometimes it was other things, too - the voices in my head, or the sense that the world wasn't spinning right. It felt like a big cloud moved over me after I junked Smile. Even when we moved past it, I wasn't okay with things. The idea of the record kept weighing me down. I could feel it on me whenever I started to get too far into hope and possibility. I would write a really cool tune, start the recording process, call the guys in, then suddenly lose interest and walk away from whatever I was doing. I started making up excuses like I didn't feel good or I had a sore throat, anything I could come up with to avoid confronting my own work. I was afraid of failing, afraid my dad was right, afraid I couldn't live up to the example that Phil Spector set for me. It was the depression creeping up on me that would eventually go over me completely, take away my spirit, and paralyze me for so many years."

 :'(

To circle back around: In Brian's own words, "Smiley Smile bombed" and (presumably) Surfs Up-Holland "weren't selling". What would that mean for Friends and Sunflower? Brian seemed motivated upon signing w/Reprise and was quite heavily involved in the Sunflower sessions (more so than the final track listing would suggest). Obviously, neither of you were suggesting that chart failure wasn't a factor. I just happen to think, particularly with Sunflower, and possibly, Friends, that it must have been devastating (if not in the moment, then upon reflection). And while the group did reject Brian's ideas numerous times (sometimes in particularly harmful ways), I think there were probably many more times that they were supportive and encouraging (at least during those home studio years). They wanted Brian to contribute material, to produce. Brian couldn't for his own reasons.

I hesitate to do so but the Redwood saga has to be mentioned in this context, especially BE's post about the band being supportive and encouraging.

Brian took it on his own initiative more or less to try setting up a record label for the band in order to expand their focus and likely too with the notion in mind that this thing may not last forever. At the same time he had David Anderle, Nick Grillo, and others doing the mechanics and the behind the scenes numbers crunching (which led to a rift with Capitol over royalties not paid that Brian and the band eventually won), he also had Carl and Dennis doing various experiments and trial runs in the studio.

Why would they be doing that? Why would Brian be showing them the ropes in a more hands-on way? Mostly because he was setting up a label for the band which would allow the band members to scout and produce outside artists and eventually have a release vehicle with some muscle in the form of Capitol. And, they could still make Beach Boys records.

It was the Apple Corp. template that the Beatles used for the same purposes a year or so later.

And repeating myself, I know, but it's a key point in my opinion. Brian was doing exactly what "Brother" was being formed to do, work with outside artists who had some promise, and produce material for them which would generate more revenue for the Brother venture.

Were the actions of the band in that regard encouraging and supportive? This was very early on in the Brother development, and almost right out of the gate after only one album and a live project that was still in the plans when Brian worked with Redwood, he got cut off from doing it.

By the band.

It's opinion, I know, and perhaps solely my own, but that had to hurt like hell.

Again, something Brian wanted to do, something he was pouring effort into doing, something with merit and potential, and something being done for *Brother Records*, NOT *Brian Wilson Records*, was met with resistance and basically killed by the band, including his own brother and cousin.

Like the examples I posted earlier, that's one of quite a few cases where Brian was invested in something at this time and he got backlash rather than support.

I'd have said f*** it too, but Brian continued making music with and for the Beach Boys the whole time into 1968, in spite of this and as his ideas got rejected time and time again. That is a key point to consider as well.

Funny you should mention this because I remember when Brian was promoting his first solo album on David Letterman's show, Dave asked how long it had been since he had appeared on a record (sounds like Dave bought the old narrative too). Brian says "About 3 years ago with The Beach Boys but nothing happened with it" (presumably he's referring to either BB85 or the "California Dreaming'" single). When asked about his solo album, Brian immediately starts talking about how it's doing chart wise, saying it's not doing "real well" but says "The measure of a man is how well he does in the trades". That line always struck me because it's the sort of music business insider axiom one would expect out of a grizzled captain of industry...and then I remembered, oh yeah, Brian IS a grizzled captain of industry.
This is in stark contrast to several pre-release interviews about the album where Brian predicts skyrocketing sales and several smash hit singles. It's tempting to write that kind of thing off as Landyspeak but I agree that Brian (perhaps until recently when age has become a big factor) defined success via chart placement.  I can imagine him being devastated when the music didn't connect on a mass level. 

I can't think of a single artist, whether it be a musician, actor, director, playwright, author, etc who does not do exactly the same kind of pre-release pumping up of one's self and the art they've created. To do otherwise would be like an athlete saying before a game "I'm gonna lose". No team or player does that, they do whatever they do as a pre-game psych-up. Everyone who is making art of all kinds wants some level of mass success and that connection with an audience. Everyone who creates art wants as many people to experience it as possible. Brian is no different. He felt the same about No Pier Pressure. Exactly the same.

A related point to consider would be how the failure of "Summer In Paradise" and any number of Mike Love's other efforts that tanked have been addressed after the fact. Mike barely mentions them in any kind of official way, in interviews, books, whatever. In fact those losses and failures are pretty much whitewashed off the record. Summer In Paradise wasn't even listed in some official BB discographies. I wonder how Mike handles that kind of failure. And it's relevant because he has used on numerous occasions including slagging off on TWGMTR and the BW 88 album the lack of a "hit single" or some other mention of chart success. So it seems to eat at him too, yet he uses it to take a shot at others while seeming to ignore all the projects of his which stiffed in sometimes epic ways.

guitarfool2002, I agree nearly completely with your post (Reply #42). I alluded to incidents like Redwood in my post. The only thing I'd change is that other than the month(s) Brian was hospitalized in '68, I'd say he continued working with and for the Beach Boys, significantly, into early 1970 (as opposed to only '68). That's a minor point, though. Look, I'm on Brian's side, and I'm a newer fan trying to figure out what I think went down, but there's a difference between a person saying "f*ck it" and doing their own thing, and saying "f*ck it" and living that excerpt I posted. That's not really a choice.


Yeah, I remember that. I think at some point he began to take a more healthy approach and recognize critical success and the sheer love of his fans, but even he admits it took him a long time to understand just how much his music meant to people. Even in recent years he'll mention chart success and getting another #1 - but that also reminds me of how Carl would often thank Brian live in concert for the music he had written. Perhaps, he knew that Brian needed to hear and understand that.

When exactly was Brian hospitalized? I think it's significant to note that throughout the early part of 1968, Brian was a powerhouse, writing most of Friends, and on its heels writes and records Do It Again, I Went to Sleep, Sail Plane Song, All I Wanna Do, Walkin' and produces We're Together Again, Walk On By, and Ol' Man River. Then, after June, there's very little that Brian contributes to the band for the rest of the year. After that, the 20/20 album mostly becomes a Dennis show, they do I Can Hear Music, and they dust off and work out old Brian gems: Been Way Too Long, Our Prayer, Cabin Essence, Time to Get Alone.

Then 1969 starts off as being yet another Dennis show: Forever, San Miguel, Got to Know the Woman, Celebrate the News. In March of 1969, they pull together a few songs Brian had demoed before June 1968: Loop de Loop and All I Wanna Do. Then, at the very end of March, the band records the first new song Brian had written for the band since Walkin' nine months earlier. Then another five months go by before the band works on another song written by Brian: Soulful Old Man Sunshine. Finally in October of 1969, the band starts to record a new crop of Brian songs: Games Two Can Play, Add Some Music, When Girls Get Together, Our Sweet Love, Til I Die, At My Window, Where Is She?.

But until then there had been a 15 month period in which the band recorded about 20 new songs with only two of them written by Brian. So something is definitely going on in that year-plus. It's also worth noting too that that burst of creativity in 1969 was more of an aberration than anything. In 1970, Brian only really contributes 3 new songs: I Just Got My Pay, Help is on the Way, and My Solution. He adds a bit to Cool Cool Water and Take a Load Off. But ultimately Brian really pulls back from contributing to the band, which is a remarkable thing to say when you consider that he had already gone through a 15 month dry spell.

I don't know. I just vaguely remember previous discussions here speculating that perhaps he was hospitalized for a month or two in the summer ?? Again, I don't know. You can frame his creative burst in late '69 -early '70 (and he did contribute to other songs he didn't write) as an aberration, but I assume at least some of the songs he recorded then may have been written earlier in the year or even in 1968. I don't think we have any real way of knowing. But you're right, he was seemingly absent for a prolonged period of time prior to recording Sunflower material. Personally, I just remember discovering the "contender songs" and being blown away as a younger fan that Brian was that involved at that time. Both as a result of that false narrative that inspired this thread and the final track listing of Sunflower, which is fantastic, but not as Brian-infused as it could have been.

Edit: Also, to add to your list of songs, I believe Good Time was written and recorded during this period.

You're right. Add that to the 1970 list, so we have 4 new songs from Brian that year.

I'm on the the band's side with that whole Redwood situation.

The band is floundering and in need of a hit. Mike co-writes a potential hit, 'Darlin', and Brian decides to give it away. Now, if the Beach Boys go under, Brian will survive as a producer/arranger behind-the-scenes guy. That indeed may be his ultimate ambition.

But what happens to Mike, Al, Carl and Dennis? Do they get regular jobs? Sell real estate? Open up a surf shop?

That would be fine had certain members not spent the last year and half critiquing the music Brian was making for the band. Had Mike even written the Darlin' lyrics yet? Danny Hutton claims to be the source for the title of the song.

I think one of the issues with the Redwood story is that nobody went to Brian and *asked* him to maybe let the BBs do the songs. There was no compromise attempted. No evidence that they said "let us record them first, and then Redwood can put out their versions." No evidence that they tried to sit down and have an adult, level-headed conversation about it.

It sounds like Brian was bullied and guilted into it, *told* what to do. Chuck Negron recounted the story both in his book and in interviews.

The fact that the BBs in turn *didn't* score huge epic hits with any of the Redwood songs would also tend to undercut their argument. "Darlin'"" did okay as a single, #19 US and #11 UK.

And that's not even getting into the territory of addressing why, if they were so motivated to have music careers, the *other guys* didn't write some singles. They also could have shopped around to outside writers if they were just trying to sink their claws into keeping some sort of career going.

First in several replies:

Consider "Surf City" which Brian also gave away to Jan & Dean and which went on to hit #1. Caused a bit of a shitstorm especially with Murry. I wonder if Murry's anger was shared by anyone else within the band.

But my point is, along with many of these issues, there was a precedent and it was nothing new. It was the crap Brian had to deal with.

The main thing here is that Brother was set up in large part to allow Brian and the band members to do EXACTLY what Brian did with Redwood, but I'd be repeating myself if I said what that was. It's common knowledge, or so I thought.

Great discussion!

From what I've read, Brian entered a psychiatric hospital after the release of Friends at the end of June 1968. The next recording I can find that he participated in was "Time to Get Alone," which the Beach Boys started working on in October 1968. So that would be 3-4 months.

Thanks for that. It is interesting though that he didn't offer a new song to the band for about nine months after his hospitalization. And given all that, it's interesting that the song he does put forward after all that time is "Breakaway." As far as I recall, the lyrics were written by Murry "Reggie" Wilson but they are remarkably appropriate for Brian's own life (though the two certainly had a lot of similarities in terms of their respective illnesses). And still remarkable that after nine months, he puts forth and produces a song that goes on to be internally criticized. I think it was Al who said maybe said something about the lackluster production?

EDIT:

Al: “I was really disappointed and frustrated by how this one ended up. We knew we had 90% of a good record, but typical of his late ‘60s mentality, Brian under-produced and undersold the ending of the record.”

I think this is a super interesting thread and would love to contribute more (if I weren't at work maybe I would). But I must add...

I don't think Brian's focus on sales has ever left him (and I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that). And if anybody disagrees, let's remember that either Ray Lawlor or Joe Thomas was quoted as saying something like, "when Brian had found out That's Why God Made The Radio made the charts at number 3, he was practically skipping around backstage in joy!"

I think that tells us a lot. And it's too bad other members (or a certain member) of the band couldn't have been as happy about the chart placement as Brian was.

I think Mike Love specifically wrongly and vindictively downplayed the #3 chart peak of TWGMTR.

But, in general, I think the band (including Brian both in the BBs and on his own) placed too much emphasis on having "hits." As in, "hit singles." You can tell that all of the guys, and especially Brian and Mike, still have a bit of an old fashioned idea of how the charts work.

You'd have to be SUPER out of touch to think past the 90s that the BBs would have any chance at a "hit single." The charts just aren't build that way, and nobody on radio is going to play a new BB (or Brian) song.

What they should have focused on by the 90s, and the Paley sessions would have been the perfect place to start, was having *good albums*, and in turn they could then score good chart placement (and possibly garner Grammy nominations) with their albums.

Their contemporaries and peers from the 60s that were still going in the 90s were scoring hit *albums*, and getting notices for albums. McCartney got a freaking *album of the year* nomination for "Flaming Pie" even though all of the "singles" tanked, even after he tried to goose the charts by releasing two version of each of three singles with different B/C-sides.

And even within the album charts, where TWGMTR proved it's the only place the BBs could still have action (other than some fringe charts), Mike's subsequent interviews showed a total lack of understanding of how sales and chart placement works. He didn't seem to be familiar with the fact that, like movies and pretty much everything, sales are super front-loaded and artists will usually see their best week in Week #1. Considering how much Mike (and the others to varying lesser degrees) had contributed to watering down the BB name/brand, it was amazing TWGMTR hit #3 when it was their first truly new album in 20 years after little studio activity.

Stephen Desper's recollections beginning at about 2:58 - 3:05 of his Break Away study video speaks to the group's support of Brian and the atmosphere of 'commerciality' during the sessions. Desper describes how both seemed to affect Brian. Any excuse to watch a study video!

http://swdstudyvideos.com/index---3.html (http://swdstudyvideos.com/index---3.html)

Brother was set up in 1966 when the Beach Boys were riding high on the charts. By the fall of 1967, they were barely hanging on.
There were groups as successful as the BBs which didn't survive the 60's -- the Dave Clark 5, Herman's Hermits. The members of those bands went on to selling real estate or giving guitar lessons.

But, in an alternative future, would we rather have had a Redwood 'Darlin'? Would it even have been a hit without the Beach Boys name attached? What would have taken its place on the WH lp? What would have been the single that the Beach Boys would have released in its stead?

MORE of us radio 'types' need to be "out of touch".  I GUARANTEE that I'll be playing new Brian songs on the radio...as I have before now...as for the Beached Boys?  Not so much...and the Beach Boys won't be 'doing' anything new going forward so not them either.  I will program vintage Beach Boys 'adult' oriented hits and especially l.p. tracks  as well.

I have a new project coming up which will include programming good songs and great music and the Beach Boys/Brian Wilson have a ton of those.  Just rolling out those old 45s ain't gonna get 'er done anymore though.  NOT in the 21st century.  Generally THOSE stations have a 6 month shelf life...MAX.  Why?  Primarily they burn out their playlist and the programmers didn't 'live' it... ... ...So?  They don't KNOW it.

Radio can't be programmed using only the eyes.

.

Thanks for those details, wjcrerar. I'm really looking forward to that 1968 release. Perhaps there will be some new insights.

Thanks so much for that. Great info!

Brian attended the concerts at melodyland in late September but didn't take the stage-so hospital thing was earlier

Actually Brian was at the July 17 1968 show in San Diego too and held sessions for we're together again in early September so we are apparently looking at August 1968

Thanks for that info, Ian.

I suppose it would also be helpful to know exactly how long this period of hospitalization lasted. Are we assuming it was a month? Also, what was the nature of his treatment?

Didn't look at the post before-yeah it could have been late fall

Points in the timeline to consider, November 14th 1968 Brian was out in public at the KHJ premiere event for the Yellow Submarine film, which is where all those photos of him carrying the tape recorder came from.

Also, Carnie was born April 29, 1968. Might be a factor for various periods of inactivity that year. Having a newborn does kind of change things a bit, right?  :)

But there is one piece from an interview Carl gave that I can never find or recall the details...where he says at this time Brian was having surgery on his bad ear to try to restore hearing and where he'd be able to hear in stereo. I can't remember how or if that point was ever expanded on, what exactly the surgery was or when it was, etc. But I thought it was from the time around mid to late 68. Any details?

I have an interview with Marilyn from 1972 where she places it in 1966 but that doesn't mean much-she wasn't trying to be exact

I'm pretty sure Carl was talking about this in 1968, but my memory could be wrong. But I do recall him saying he was so happy his brother may be able to hear in stereo if the procedure was a success, or something along those lines.

This has frustrated me before, because I can never seem to find that interview with Carl to cite specifically when these discussions come up. But I'm pretty sure it was from 68...I  could be wrong.

Yeah I have that interview-I'll have to look for it

Ok, I was wrong on the 68 date on the ear surgery. There is still one interview with Carl where he mentions being excited for Brian to hear in stereo that I cannot find, but I found these excerpts which I clipped and have the publication dates.

It seems to have been sometime in Fall '67 when Brian had the surgery to try correcting his hearing. What you'll read is kind of discouraging in retrospect because each of them mention the operation being a success. "Them" being Dennis, Murry, and Carl chronologically in these interviews.

NME December '67

(https://i.imgur.com/6o1jtKj.jpg)

Beat Instrumental February '68

(https://i.imgur.com/Bl6aNmV.jpg)

Beat Instrumental April '68

(https://i.imgur.com/rmxG48Y.jpg)

That was one of the first questions Carl asked me...when we first met.  Was I hungry...did I want something to eat?  And we ate...and talked and ate and talked and talked.  [inspired to remember that by your NME Dec. '67 article there Craig.]

I honestly have never heard of this operation/these operations to correct Brian's hearing deficiencies before.  I still learn 'something' every day.

That's fantastic Lee, what a great memory! It sounds like that was Carl's M.O. going back to the 60's. Very, very cool.

The operation in late '67 seems to be something that isn't or hasn't been reported much in the history of the group, yet there it is in multiple press reports from that time. It is sad because obviously the positive reports at that time didn't turn out to be the long-term result with Brian's bad ear.

If he was hospitalized for a "nervous breakdown" which has been reported as the cause, the length of hospitalization would depend on Brian's recovery from the initial meltdown - but usually as soon as a patient appears better and is not a danger to himself or others he would be discharged for outpatient treatment.  I would think 2-4 weeks at the maximum.

Which means the hospitalization could have occurred at the end of June (giving 2-3 weeks before the July 17th appearance) or in October after the Time to Get Alone session,  or in August.  Peter Reum has stated it was after Friends but we don't the source of that information or if that was a generalization and not meant to be an exact date (as all of the above dates are "after Friends").

June is out-check out bellagio to see how busy he was in the studio